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Riverune
04-18-2011, 02:53 AM
Hey everyone,
I am not very good with maths and spreadsheets so I'm having difficulty understanding some things.
To begin, I wanted to optimize my stats (via reforging, gemming) of my current gear, however I'm getting mixed messages and would appreciate any clarification.
I started off with this graph, I think it's simple:
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/118/graph3t.jpg

My Mastery is: 2448, Total avoidance rating: 3211, so I reforged to a parry:dodge ratio of ~1.24 thinking that was the way to go.
However...I then input my stats into a warrior spread sheet created by someone else
(https://spreadsheets0.google.com/ccc?authkey=CMyAlZgP&hl=en&key=tAzOMDhq8YAMN6U8fEoBZ3Q&hl=en&authkey=CMyAlZgP#gid=21)
which tells me reforge 80 dodge to parry, which throws my P: D ratio to ~1.37.
So finally I looked around a little more at this graph: http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/623/parrydodgerating.png
which only made me more confused, indicating to me, my P: D ratio needed to be even lower. ><
Basically, I just wanted to find out what I should balance my master/avoidance to (if you need armory it's :http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/dathremar/riverune/advanced .
Sorry for the maths illiteracy, any help would be great thank you!
Riverune.

klausi
04-18-2011, 05:05 AM
You want as much mastery as possible (reforge your parry to mastery on your panties!) and after that you want slightly higher (+2-3%) parry chance thanks to the hold the line talent, all above that is questionable due to the impact of DR.

Riverune
04-18-2011, 05:08 AM
then wouldn't I reforge dodge to mastery on my legs?
edit: never mind, I see why xD then I lose 0.01% avoidance.

MellvarTank
04-18-2011, 08:11 AM
Your stat priorities go Mastery>Parry>Dodge as a warrior. Parry can be ~4% higher than dodge and still be better, mastery can be as high as you want.

Riverune
04-18-2011, 12:20 PM
Thanks for the help ^^ , now would anyone be able to help me figure out why I am getting confused and mixed messages with the graphs and spread sheets I linked?

Leverage
04-18-2011, 06:23 PM
I would think due to the basic fact that most of these are created by different people, and theres alot of people with different views on stats. I would not trust any graphs atm. Melvar could not have put it better. Only real option is whether to gem mastery or stam... :) a subject of ongoing disscussion.

klausi
04-19-2011, 12:09 AM
Only real option is whether to gem mastery or stam... :) a subject of ongoing disscussion.
There are several things that aren't set in stone yet for our lovely warriors:
- gem for mastery over stam
- trinket choice (avoidance, mastery or stam)
- reforge for expertise on heroic progression (sacrificing up to 4% avoidance for the important snap aggro, especially on 10m without tricks or md)
- flask (at least after 4.1 with another +150 stamina bump) over two elixir
- saving shieldblock or using it on cooldown (considering the huge 4.1 changes)

Leverage
04-19-2011, 11:24 AM
- reforge for expertise on heroic progression (sacrificing up to 4% avoidance for the important snap aggro, especially on 10m without tricks or md)
- flask (at least after 4.1 with another +150 stamina bump) over two elixir
- saving shieldblock or using it on cooldown (considering the huge 4.1 changes)

I have not heard of tanks doing any of these things in current raiding. If you have the threads/source for these statements handy please link them. I doubt i could justify saving shield block, or reforging for exp, but i would still like to read about it a bit. The elixir comment really surprised me, i have flasked for stam since cata and would not even think of doing otherwise.

Petninja
04-19-2011, 12:16 PM
I also flask for stamina over the elixir combo, but that's mostly because my guild has a lot of inexperienced raiders who wipe the raid often to simple things and we're still trying to teach them. /sigh

Leverage
04-19-2011, 03:31 PM
Amen ^^ I cant imagine the cost of using elixir combos on hardmode progression.

klausi
04-19-2011, 04:59 PM
I have not heard of tanks doing any of these things in current raiding.
Then you just didn't follow all the topics on raid progression of those famous tanks like Sco, Xav, Kungen and so on.


I doubt i could justify saving shield block
There a lot of situations when you want to either delay it (eg Atramedes/Valiona starts to breath soon) or just saving it up for huge burst moments (Cho'gall heroic during Flaming Destructions, especially after the reflect stealth nerf) and there will be even more situations after 4.1 considering the magical damage reduction component - think of Nefarian heroic and electrocute/breath. On 10m you'll be out of cooldowns every so often and closing that gap is huge.


The elixir comment really surprised me, i have flasked for stam since cata and would not even think of doing otherwise.
Sorry but no serious progression tank bothers using an underbudgeted stamina flask. And even after the bump to 450 stamina with 4.1 it's only okayish for farm encounter.

Prismatic elixir on heroic magical burst fights like Omnotron pre nerf, Maloriak (maintanking), Nefarian or Cho'gall is just way to good to pass up - especially for us warrior brethren with the lack of magical defense. And you shouldn't forget about the increased block chance via +225 mastery as well.


Amen ^^ I cant imagine the cost of using elixir combos on hardmode progression.
Progression raiding is not about gold, it's about .. progress *haha*. I gulped roughly 80 elixir every progress night and if the tactic was set in stone 1 golemblood prepot and 1 earthen potion during burst phases. Finally killing the boss was rewarding enough :)


or reforging for exp, but i would still like to read about it a bit.
I've raided a lot of 10m heroic lately due to lineup issues with our 25m and without tricks/md i've some serious issues with initial aggro while everyone is prepotting and popping wings/deathwish right away. Or take a look on Council hc, you'll have to get snap aggro three times in a row with a tight enrage timer - in between vengeance decaying rather quickly - and while positioning the bosses over and over again.

Sacrificing up to 4% avoidance while still at 85%+ ctc isn't that bad as it sounds. And you don't have to use that gear on every fight, there are some pieces you can use just for this purpose exclusively (after you picked up a different/better one): Maloriak helmet, Nefarian shoulders, Council gloves, Chimaeron boots, VP cloak, Ramkahen bracer just to name a few.

Icebreaker
04-20-2011, 12:36 AM
^ Agree totaly.

Leverage
04-20-2011, 01:57 AM
Nothing personal, but its hard to trust your views on subjects when you refuse to link a toon in your profile. You could be not even raiding current content for all i know.

Veldine
04-20-2011, 06:17 AM
Elixirs are cheaper than flasks on my server. I'm not a hardcore raider or anything but on progression fights I probably go through at most 10 each mastery/deep earth or prismatic on a 2 and a half hour night. The flask isn't that great imo. it's what, a little over 3k health? 90 mastery and 90 magic res just feels better to me imo.

If you read around most of the topics on this board, especially those regarding threat, what Klausi is saying is true. It's pretty much a common theme around here (ie. go stam/threat on heroic modes).

MellvarTank
04-20-2011, 08:08 AM
Nothing personal, but its hard to trust your views on subjects when you refuse to link a toon in your profile. You could be not even raiding current content for all i know.

Except for the fact that they are correct in what they are saying.

Loganisis
04-20-2011, 09:32 AM
To build on what Klausi said about 85% versus 89% dodge/parry/block/boss miss... Obviously you'll take a few more unblocked hits, but the chance of the string of unblocked hits isn't very different...

@85% = .15 * .15 = .0225 or 2.25% chance of 2 unblocked attacks in a row.
@89% = .11 * .11 = .0121 or 1.21% chance of 2 unblocked attacks in a row.

That 4% difference does almost double the chance, but it's still a 1 in 40ish chance. And if you need the extra aggro because you're just at the enrage timer, it's all about balancing for the raid.

***

Most progression tanks do double elixer - the reason is you get more 'stuff' out of elixers. Blizz purposely changed this in Cata so instead of 2 elixers = 1 flask as it was in WotLK, the budget of 2 elixers > 1 flask in Cata. This is true across the board. And elixors give you far more flexability in how you set up for a specific fight.

If you overgear/have a fight on farm (functionally equivalent, the only difference is raid execution), then you don't really need the extra budget and if wipes are common place (such as groups that overgear but can't down the boss) a flask is probably better. But if you're pushing content, the extra budge from elixers wins out.

***

Why couldn't you justify saving shield block as a magic damage CD in 4.1? Even for tanks that reforge into expertise, it's for burst aggro at the start, not continued aggro mid-fight. So once you have aggro, SB is nice to smooth damage even further, but isn't necessary for aggro, and if you have a big burst of magic damage coming in, a 30 sec CD is far more attractive than a 2 or 3 or 4 minute CD.

Whether SB will be saved to be used as a defensive CD in a fight is going to depend largely on the mechanics of the fight itself.

***

I'm not at HMs yet (for a number of reasons - hopefully the next week or 2) but even without being there - everything that's been said makes perfect sense.
* 2x elixir budget > 1x flask budget
* Surv trade off for better inital aggro is worth it if the DPS is right at the enrage timer
* SB, in 4.1, will be a situational defensive CD
* Cost isn't a factor in progression raiding... well it is, but it's an understood cost - you are accepting that cost to progress as rapidly as possible.


****

But again, a lot of this is what is your guild's goal and production. It is more acceptable for a more casually progressing guild to go with flasks > elixirs, etc, etc... But that's because a progression raiding guild is going in there with considerablly less gear. It's hard to call yourself a true progression raiding guild if your raiding group is optimizing for fights you don't have on farm. It doesn't matter what level you're running - if you're pushing a fight and not optimizing, and not just you, the tank, but the entire raid, the group isn't really dedicated to pushing content as it is in completing content.

Not a bad thing, it's just a matter of what your guild's goals and preferences are.

Reev
04-20-2011, 10:51 AM
In one hour of wiping to a heroic boss, we might get in a maximum of 7 attempts. 14 elixirs, or 28 herbs per hour. It's very easy to farm up that quantity, especially when 3/4 of those herbs are the easily obtainable heart blossom or cinderbloom. I can pick up something like 80-100 heart blossom in one hour, and 40 jasmine in half an hour. So for 1.5 hours' worth of farming, I get 40 elixirs, or almost 6 hours worth of wiping over and over. Or you could buy them off the AH. Not that expensive.

Leverage
04-20-2011, 12:59 PM
Except for the fact that they are correct in what they are saying.
[/INDENT]

I never said he was right or wrong...and if you read my first comment you can see i was merely seeking a redirect to read up these subjects that i knew little about. I would feel sorry for anyone that takes 1 random forum statement as fact and fails to further research it.

MellvarTank
04-20-2011, 01:29 PM
I never said he was right or wrong...


Nothing personal, but its hard to trust your views on subjects when you refuse to link a toon in your profile. You could be not even raiding current content for all i know.

I could link any toon I want on my profile. Say, did you know I was Xav? Now I'm Kungen! Check me out, I'm Theck!

A toon link isn't worth beans, the bottom line is that if 4 people confirm it, then it is likely confirmed. You could always try to search function as well, it's located top right. Most, if not all, topics have been covered in one form or another.

Airowird
04-21-2011, 03:56 AM
Make that 5 people, Mellvar :)

Also, you don't need to have a top raiding tank to know the math, that's what makes any science so great!! It helps for gathering data, but getting data from another source can be just as good (and is actually more reliable in the long run). In fact, nearly all of the Cata testing I did for my spreadsheet (see sig) was done by a Warrior in my guild, usually with me just standing around on my Shaman with my nose in the combat log.

Booi
04-21-2011, 08:35 AM
This doesn't invalidate people's requests for citation or supporting arguments. By the current logic we should simply listen to everyone because they could be anyone. This is quite obviously, self defeating.

That being said:
The expertise stacking was by Xav during their Ascendant Council HM progression. Tank damage is largely trivial and the number of sub 1% wipes that under-geared guilds were bouncing through was getting pretty atrocious.

As always: look at your current progression encounter and gem/reforge/flask/spec accordingly. People who are looking for three golden rules to successful tanking need find only one: "Think"

MellvarTank
04-21-2011, 08:44 AM
This doesn't invalidate people's requests for citation or supporting arguments. By the current logic we should simply listen to everyone because they could be anyone. This is quite obviously, self defeating.

There is a certain amount of truth to this, but at the same time asking someone else to do all the work for you is just not going to happen (especially when they have already done it at least 3 times before).

For most of the theorycrafters or even just regular posters on this site there is a certain amount of assumed knowledge.

Linking a toon in ones profile to "prove" you have done the content doesn't prove anything as you can link any toon you want (as I stated, I could link Xav as my character in my profile and thus I have completed every encounter in the game).

As WarTotem said, the math doesn't lie. If you have a general concensus between users on any topic then it is most likely true. If you are still in doubt, the search function is top right and as I stated, most (if not all) topics have been covered before.

Booi
04-21-2011, 08:53 AM
Sure the math doesn't lie. The issue is that there was no math provided in this thread, and no links to relevant topics. People are right to be wary of this kind of discussion.

swelt
04-21-2011, 08:59 AM
I think if you want to start any sentence with "Sorry but no serious progression tank..." then you need to have some qualifications. I mean even taking aside the fact that 'serious' and 'progression' are terms open to interpretation, there's huge amounts of history to show that worlds first tanks have often geared and talented in ways quite at odds with each other and with established theorycraft. Theorycrafters in particular get very hung up on minutiae which have a lot less impact that they'd like to portray, and certainly a lot less than things like 'spending an extra night raiding' or 'having a really high level of skill and commitment'.

Only a matter of months ago, this forum was awash with theorycrafters claiming that mastery trumped all. Now there's a growing recognition that you actually need a baseline amount of raw stamina to survive heroic modes and that message is changing. It's not changing because theory got better, it's changing because tanks with first hand experience are discovering that the Blizzard encounter designers planned for tanks to have X hitpoints when they worked out how hard boss Y was going to hit/breathe.

So to the OP: you have to take this kind of stuff with your own pinch of salt. Theory goes so far, and there's no doubting the basics that 'mastery is good', 'parry and dodge are best kept roughly even' and 'if you reach 0 hitpoints you die', but if 3 different tools give you slightly different results, it's because of slightly different base assumptions that the creator has rolled into his maths.

MellvarTank
04-21-2011, 09:02 AM
For the sake of argument, I just searched up "parry dodge mastery warrior" in the search function.

http://www.tankspot.com/search.php?searchid=1184783

There are easily 6 applicable threads on the first page of that search. If you want to be wary, be wary, but don't go asking everyone else to redo the math on what has already been done, a lot.

This is basically me saying don't be lazy yourself, and then complain when other people are.

Booi
04-21-2011, 09:12 AM
For the sake of argument, I just searched up "parry dodge mastery warrior" in the search function.

http://www.tankspot.com/search.php?searchid=1184783

There are easily 6 applicable threads on the first page of that search. If you want to be wary, be wary, but don't go asking everyone else to redo the math on what has already been done, a lot.

This is basically me saying don't be lazy yourself, and then complain when other people are.

I guess I should have been more specific, certainly there is enough parry/dodge/mastery discussion to feed the starving tanks of the world. The thread I was following was:



- reforge for expertise on heroic progression (sacrificing up to 4% avoidance for the important snap aggro, especially on 10m without tricks or md)
- flask (at least after 4.1 with another +150 stamina bump) over two elixir
- saving shieldblock or using it on cooldown (considering the huge 4.1 changes)
I have not heard of tanks doing any of these things in current raiding. If you have the threads/source for these statements handy please link them. I doubt i could justify saving shield block, or reforging for exp, but i would still like to read about it a bit. The elixir comment really surprised me, i have flasked for stam since cata and would not even think of doing otherwise.

For which leverage was essentially told that anyone could be any number of great tanks and therefore should be heeded.

Ramble Ramble, and i'm done.

MellvarTank
04-21-2011, 09:16 AM
For which leverage was essentially told that anyone could be any number of great tanks and therefore should be heeded.

No, this is what he said that got that response:


Nothing personal, but its hard to trust your views on subjects when you refuse to link a toon in your profile. You could be not even raiding current content for all i know.

Booi
04-21-2011, 09:21 AM
After he had asked for specific citation.

and was fed:

Then you just didn't follow all the topics on raid progression of those famous tanks like Sco, Xav, Kungen and so on.

He said that she said that you said that I said that there's not much more to say here.

klor
04-21-2011, 09:22 AM
Then why continue posting? Obvious trolling is obvious. Just saying.

truculent
04-21-2011, 09:23 AM
After he had asked for specific citation.

and was fed:


He said that she said that you said that I said that there's not much more to say here.


If at first you dont succeed... make all attempts possible to confuse the life out of every set of eyes on the thread. most importantly your own, so you can sleep better this evening.

Booi
04-21-2011, 09:27 AM
Then why continue posting? Obvious trolling is obvious. Just saying.

Because someone came asking for information and was turned away.

Loganisis
04-21-2011, 09:29 AM
No, the question was answered. The request for linking a toon in a profile to 'prove' something was... met with a certain amount mirth.

Booi
04-21-2011, 09:34 AM
Leverage: "Interesting Ideas, can you provide links to supporting threads?"
Tankspot: "Supporting threads contain Kungen. You did not read. Here is my thread"
Leverage: "Oh I see... and who are you?"
Tankspot: "It matters not!" <Insert Mirth>

Loganisis
04-21-2011, 09:41 AM
That's really how you see it?

New poster: I don't believe you, prove it all to me.
Tank Spot Community: Use the search.

It's not that asking for validation is wrong, it's that it's already been validated ad nasuem (I don't think I spelled that correctly). Frankly, if you join a site like Tank Spot, regular posters post information in response, others back it up, there's probably 353 threads with supporting evidence.

This has become very confrontational where it shouldn't have been. And that started with the 'prove yourself to me' post. There is a lot of information on tankspot, but demanding it be validated to your specific liking isn't going to get very far.

sifuedition
04-21-2011, 09:45 AM
I have to say that what I read came across as, "I come for advice. Prove yourself to me or I will not listen."

That tends to remove any motivation I had to help.

P.S. Previous post beat me to it.

Booi
04-21-2011, 10:05 AM
That's really how you see it?

Thinking about it more.... you are of, course, correct. We don't need 1000 threads linking to 1000 other threads.

Sorry for the unwarranted adventure.

Leverage
04-21-2011, 03:57 PM
Regardless i wont be posting anymore on this forum after getting smashed like this for little or no reason. I have been following this forum for years and am content to keep doing so. I agree this is my general mentality "I come for advice. Prove yourself to me or I will not listen.". I would alter it slightly to "I come for advice. Prove yourself to me or I will not take what you are saying as fact, yet i will always listen.". Also for the record...i did search for other threads on the subjects of "reforging expertise" , and "saving shield block" before i responded... said searches gave me nothing. Perhaps i am not all that good with the search function.

kopcap
04-21-2011, 09:55 PM
I mostly agree with whats been said. Just wanted to expand on klausi's points.


There are several things that aren't set in stone yet for our lovely warriors:
- gem for mastery over stamOn progression, stamina is a comfort cushion for your healers. It is determined by both fight mechanics and your party's skill. The less your stand in fire, the better you are at using defensive cooldowns, the quicker reaction of your healers, the better the interrupts, etc - the less stamina your tank needs. Mastery is the king.

On a rare fight you gonna notice your tank starts dying in two hits. You gonna have to determine whether this was avoidable or not avoidable. This is where the mastery/stamina debate kicks in. If your tank died cos he stood in fire, or did not get a proper CD in time, etc - its not yet a reason for more stamina, its a reason to prefect your strat. On the other hand, if the tank dies cos the party is severely undergeared or there is some frequent RNG involved - this may be a good time to get more stam.

Bottom line, mastery is the right approach on the majority of fights due to its overall efficiency. Stamina stacking is the last step when you have already done everything you could to eliminate tank death and it is still not enough. And talk to the healers to determine exactly how much more cushion they need, ie a trinket and a flask could solve your problems. And as Booi gave a very good example above, keep thinking and approaching every raid composition and fight individually.


- trinket choice (avoidance, mastery or stam)I think everyone gonna agree on most fights its "what to take with TB", and then imo it comes down to whether the melee burst gonna be predictable (for vial) or not (for the worm).


- reforge for expertise on heroic progression (sacrificing up to 4% avoidance for the important snap aggro, especially on 10m without tricks or md)Really not needed imo for single target. If your really want to go nuts on threat, you can do recklessness + str potion + swap in a threat weapon set, and a good rotation. The only time when it may matter is when your dealing with adds and you don't want to miss your tc/ph. But you can still solve it with elixir of accuracy and hit weapons on swap.


- flask (at least after 4.1 with another +150 stamina bump) over two elixirAgain, not really if you remember about the scrolls. 300 stamina is no way better than 220 mastery + 150 stamina.

ps WarTotem, while I greatly respect your work and opinion, it maybe easy for you to say cos you got your "creds" printed in your signature and anyone with half a brain can see them. That said there is a fair bit of inaccurate, outdated and distorted information floating around on the forum and being transmitted from one poster to another. So I can totally understand how someone new can be confused by different things, go "who do I believe here" and ask for evidence that he can touch.

Airowird
04-22-2011, 05:33 AM
On General Note:
Let us first consider theory crafting as a science. It follows the same methods and has the same goal, namely understand a system better by reverse engineer it.
Therefor, just as in real world sciences, the general assumptions are as followed:
* If you are new to a field, you are the one that has to prove himself/herself first. The other person will have done so in the past, so you need to catch up.
* It is your job to learn about the theories in a field, it is not for the experts to teach you about them.
* Once a theory is generally accepted, any new theory/viewpoint wanting to debunk them needs to either prove the old theory false, or if it is in contradiction with the old theory, prove itself correct (e.g. Earth is round or revolves around the sun)
* While an experts opinion has weight if he/she has contributed to a lot of theories, he/she does not add weight to any of those theories.

To come back to the current topic of the thread:
klausi iterated on Leverage's comment about sta vs mastery being the only choice by giving discussion points and statements that are not clearly defined as the best advice. It was commented on from both sides and he explained the reasons those discussions are worth having. To clarify, he gave an example of a situation where avoidance > expertise was not the correct theory/advice as well as pointing out that there has been plenty of discussion about endgame progress tanks using different tactics (which usually end up being useful in certain situations for all other tanks as well).
Rather then asking for a link/source to those discussions and/or logs kausi was told to be unreliable because he had no character link... which started the whole trolling about the stuff we're talking about right now.

@Leverage:
If you seek advice, why ask if you don't trust the person you're asking?
If you ask a single person, but don't know who he/she is, then asking only results in more questions.
If you ask a community, expect the conclusion of all answers to be either a sound theory you can rely on, or a bunch of different opinions, telling you that there is no clear cut answer to the question you asked.
Also, "prove yourself or I won't listen" is a bit contradictory, as often the answer is the proof! Not to mention that science would be back a 100 years if every great mind had to prove themselves to those questioning them (especially those not willing to listen, as it was in medieval times).
You should rather see life as "I come for advice, I will listen to your opinion, but I will not take it as a fact untill I can find no way to prove you wrong." To use the flask vs elixirs example: I can not force you to take elixirs, therefor, I can not prove to you that elixirs actually offer better stats than a flask (as logs do not show enough data to clearly distinguish the numbers on this, not to mention that I would need to check every log in the world to check for elixirs vs flasks). Rather, I ask of you to prove me wrong by example (a far easier experiment), at which point the burden of proof (or acceptance) is up to me.

@kopcap:
While contradicting evidence is certainly something worth questioning/discussing, the person to believe is the one that can prove his point in all cases, not just the one who has a more progressing guild (as if you are the sole reason your guild progresses). Also, I post my "creds" in my sig, not so people know what I've done, but so that I can always point out towards advice I know is correct, and to offer a thread to new people where they can offer improvements on general ideas without derailing specific threads. That and I can't be bothered to save & paste links every time people ask for my sources :P

Kojiyama
04-26-2011, 03:09 AM
The reason you generally gem for Mastery is because Mastery has increasing returns and pushing it over the edge results in large payoffs. Stamina, on the other hand, is primarily a result of item level and has decreasing returns as a percentage of your total health.

The amount on gear is generally considered more than acceptable for all but a few hardmode encounters--and if you are working on those, you can figure out when you need the extra Stamina on your own. If you are not in this position, you likely are not needing to consider situationally gemming Stamina as an important topic. Likewise, you can probably figure out if you need Expertise on your own as well. If you are not in a position where you have a specific understanding of how/why to do this, you most likely do not need it.

If you are interested in easily optimizing the damage reduction of your Mastery/Parry/Dodge balance, I will always recommend Rawr because it is very good at that type of thing. A big reason I maintain it is because it's a great tool for this purpose, in its ability to run through the combinations of gemmings/reforgings and test them to find the best balance.

(As a quick tutorial, load up Rawr, load your character, ensure your character is fully buffed, go to Tools -> Optimize and Optimize for Mitigation Score with a high Thoroughness slider. When it is finished, you should have the best possible damage reduction combination for your character. If you wish to maintain a minimum amount of HP, put it in as a Requirement in the optimizer, e.g. Health > 170000, although this is rarely needed given what was mentioned above.

Due to how this works, however, this is also very handy--as it will attempt to find the best possible way to get you to your HP threshold while still maximizing your Mitigation. As a general rule, this is usually accomplished with Trinkets due to their large Stamina and ease of swapping.)

Dragaan
04-27-2011, 12:21 PM
Threads/questions like this are really hard to respond to... There is no definitive answer to the question "what stat(s) are best?".

However, if THIS is what you mean:

"If I had to choose a specific gemming/forging strategy and stick with it for every fight w/o swapping on a per-fight basis, what would be the best choice?"

The best answer, imo (at your level of gear), would be to gem/forge for mastery while keeping bonuses. That means 40mastery in yellows, 20mastery20parry in reds, 20mastery30stam in blues. Make sure mastery is on every piece of gear (default or forged) and keep parry ~2-3% higher than dodge. Get yourself the mirror of broken images from TB and a stamina trinket, pref the one off magmaw. 65mastery on gloves, lavawalker on boots, 50mastery on shield, austere meta in helm.

kopcap
04-28-2011, 05:15 AM
Eternal meta should be better when approaching 359 and higher.

Booi
04-28-2011, 08:04 AM
Eternal meta should be better when approaching 359 and higher.

And yet the austere remains the most popular choice by far - despite comparable damage reduction. Until warriors reach un-hittable this will likely hold true. The Austere (http://www.wowhead.com/item=52294) continues to reduce damage on the largest hits you take, but the Eternal (http://www.wowhead.com/item=52293) only reduces the damage for hits that are already reduced.

Depending if bosses get expertise (and how much), we may or may not make the swap in firelands - but as a rule: we're not there yet.

kopcap
04-28-2011, 08:12 AM
Overall dmg reduction is not 'comparable', say in my gear eternal is almost twice as good.

Booi
04-28-2011, 08:26 AM
Overall dmg reduction is not 'comparable', say in my gear eternal is almost twice as good.

I'd be interested in seeing your math behind this. What I am finding in my gear is:
Average Damage Reduction:
82.05% (no meta)
82.28% (austere)
82.36 (eternal)

And considering that the eternal's average reduction is higher while on shield block - it's also more damage reduction while already reducing substantial damage. Gearing for "worst case" is not as outdated as some people imagine.

EDIT:
If you are using wartotem's spreadsheet - you'll find that setting Austere to zero does not reduce the armour you have. Essentially this "option" changes nothing in the spread sheet, you need to manually enter your new armour value.

kopcap
04-28-2011, 09:09 AM
Nah, I was actually using Kahalm's spreadsheet from EJ. But War Totems looks similar for my char:

82.7 no meta
82.85 austere
83.02 eternal

Roar does not seem to have meta analysis yet, or it bugs out on me. But Mr Robot also told me to get eternal iirc.

While I also like the "gear for the worst" approach, the difference is just too big. Say I am currently unhittalbe by close to 90% attacks. With 30+ up time on both Windwalk and Shield Block, unmitigated hits are pretty rare and far in between, and 60+ from block is just big in comparison. And the worm trinket only adds to this.

Booi
04-28-2011, 09:25 AM
Do you know if Kahalm's spreadsheet is averaging in shield block?

Tanks die surprisingly little these days, but when I do i feel like it's:

1) We're wiping for another reason
2) Muddled fight mechanic / missing a CD
3) back to back unblocked hits or unblocked hit + magic damage.

When you run the eternal meta, what are you hoping to gain? Saving healer mana?

kopcap
04-28-2011, 09:44 AM
Not sure really, I had not checked deep into it, its got way too many numbers.

About the things you listed:

1) Two back to back unmitigated hits big enough to kill are very rare, usually a big unmitigated hit (if its really threatening) is followed by a worm proc, where eternal is going to help more than armor.

2) Unmitigated plus magic - we are now more likely to delay SB for magic bursts, so again more power to eternal.

Just trying to make my staple ability a little more efficient, thats all.

Booi
04-28-2011, 11:01 AM
The only two fights that might be classified as "Tank Killers" are HM chogall and sinestra.

Here's the situation:
If i take an unblocked hit while inspiration falls on sinestra, it is 108k - Without austere that would be 109138 (difference of 1138).

That's much more likely to kill me than changing blocked hits from 75600 to 75305 (difference of 295).

Tanks die over the course of a few melee swings. Despite blizzard's best intentions tanks don't sink over 20 second intervals. The majority of tank deaths revolve around unblocked hits, however unlikely their occurrence. Over the course of a tank's death you would need 4 blocked hits before you would surpass the reduction you missed from not having the armour on that unblocked one.


1) Two back to back unmitigated hits big enough to kill are very rare, usually a big unmitigated hit (if its really threatening) is followed by a worm proc, where eternal is going to help more than armor.


Even at 90% un-hittable (this includes averaged shield block) when a boss like sinestra melees 180 times in an encounter, you're taking 18 unblocked attacks. The chance of taking back to back unblocked hits is ~19.8% on any given pull. You need to gear for those unblocked hits.

I guess I don't see what you are actually buying with improving your block value.

Airowird
04-29-2011, 02:52 AM
EDIT:
If you are using wartotem's spreadsheet - you'll find that setting Austere to zero does not reduce the armour you have. Essentially this "option" changes nothing in the spread sheet, you need to manually enter your new armour value.
Correction, it changes the value of armor on gear.
But because I can't possibly predict how much 'real' armor from gear you have and how much is bonus, you do need to calculate it yourself.
Unless I force you to do the sum for me every time you change gear, but considering that's less open to non-math wizards, I preferred to do it as it is :)

Booi
04-29-2011, 08:55 AM
Correction, it changes the value of armor on gear.
But because I can't possibly predict how much 'real' armor from gear you have and how much is bonus, you do need to calculate it yourself.
Unless I force you to do the sum for me every time you change gear, but considering that's less open to non-math wizards, I preferred to do it as it is :)

With the loss of armour from agility, the only armour the meta does not have an effect on is the value from toughness? Or am i forgetting something?

EDIT: enchants.... how quickly i forget.

kopcap
04-29-2011, 09:02 AM
Its not entirely fair to compare "per unmitigated" vs "per blocked".

Nonetheless you made me check some numbers and I am surprised at how efficient armor is at smoothing out the extremes and how big the likelihood of two unmitigated hits in a row is. I actually came to a neighborhood of 55% for a 7 minutes fight with 90% unhittable, SB on CD and 33% Windwalk. That said I still expect worm to play a big role cos unmitigated hits only happen once very ~25 seconds on average so if healers/cds are on the ball, it should proc from this a fair bit when needed. Some of the logs I have seen make it look like the player clicks the trinket, how well timed it is :) I would really like to see sims on this.

ps Is there a way to see player health vs time in wol?

Booi
04-29-2011, 09:49 AM
ps Is there a way to see player health vs time in wol?

There was another gentleman who had made an external application that would let you track that sort of thing. Can't seem to find it at the moment, but it was in this forum.

EDIT: Aha!
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?71914-Tool-WowCardioRaid&p=472069#post472069

I don't know if there have been changes to combat log formatting that his program hasn't been updated to handle.

Booi
04-29-2011, 10:24 AM
MMO-Logs boasts a health deficit option.

http://elitistjerks.com/f32/t109414-mmo_combat_logs_world_warcraft_combatlog_analyzer/#post1799151

EDIT:

Just an old normal mode - 10 man alt log...
It's not the most elegant of interfaces, but it seems to have what we're looking for:

http://i51.tinypic.com/vz7fib.jpg

and the direct link:
http://mmo-logs.com/

Kojiyama
04-30-2011, 02:48 PM
The live version of Rawr seems to have a bug of some sort regarding displaying the meta gem list which my local version doesn't--I'll assume I've either fixed it already or someone else has!

Either way, yes, Eternal seems to be coming out quite a bit ahead of Austere once you have a fair amount of Mastery.

Loading up the profile of a very well-geared 372 Warrior who has gemmed Mastery hybrid gems in most slots (85.5% normal avoid%+block%, 90.38% averaging Shield Block in) shows Eternal as nearly double the mitigation value--while Austere has a little over double the EH value.

For relative stat values, the EH difference from Armor is roughly the same as 113 Stamina, while the difference in Mitigation is roughly the same as 120 Parry/Dodge rating for that profile.

So, regardless of if you prefer EH or avoidance, the Eternal is obviously more bang/buck. The EH would have to be worth more than 180 Stamina to be worth the same in item budget.

If you're focusing on prioritizing Mitigation (which anyone who's gemming Mastery probably is) over EH, then it's a pretty clear winner.

Booi
04-30-2011, 10:48 PM
If you're focusing on prioritizing Mitigation (which anyone who's gemming Mastery probably is) over EH, then it's a pretty clear winner.

I don't buy this argument. Mastery can drastically reduce the chance that you will take back to back unmitigated hits, but neither meta gem takes a step towards that goal. It's the same reason that we put mastery on our shields instead of armour.

It's also the reason that people keep pushing mastery even when dodge or parry rating provide more damage reduction. Get those "crushing blows" off the table. Then address the unblocked hits that remain.

EDIT: just an excerpt from our first sinestra kill. The big thing I find is that healers never say "Take less damage" but when an unblocked hit comes (or a pair of them) I'll catch a comment "What the truck just hit you?" Blocked hits don't kill tanks.

http://i51.tinypic.com/2uqbog8.png

kopcap
04-30-2011, 10:57 PM
On a related note, a lot of top warriors seem to chose War Bone Helm over Daybreaker. Some go as far as getting Massacre Threads and even dropping the 4p bonus. What do you think about this?

ps Koji, thanks but meta still is not working.

Kojiyama
05-01-2011, 05:52 AM
Kopcap, it will require a new build, most likely.

Booi, I'm honestly not really sure what you're trying to say. First off, if you're working on Sinestra, you will wiggle your gear around to survive the fight as needed. It's totally an edge case and does not really apply to the majority of the content in the game.

Secondly, some of what you say is really not accurate. Parry and Dodge stop being more valuable than Mastery after even moderate amounts of Mastery is on your gear. The reason people keep pushing Mastery is because Mastery has increasing returns while Parry and Dodge have diminishing returns. Mastery is a clear winner in terms of a stat to stack for optimal damage reduction.

Also, if 'neither meta gem takes a step towards [your] goal', how is that even relevant? Pick the best one, then. For a well-geared tank who has stacked Mastery, the Block meta gem reduces more damage. That's just simple math. As I quoted, if you prioritize damage reduction you get the Block meta, if you want more EH you get the Armor meta.

But, again, if you are in an edge case where you need more EH--by all means, pick EH. However, that simply doesn't apply to most content and the meta gem is honestly not the most effecient place to get it, either, as the budget is quite imbalanced compared to gem or trinket slots.

Booi
05-01-2011, 08:31 AM
Sorry, I'll try to be more specific.


First off, if you're working on Sinestra, you will wiggle your gear around to survive the fight as needed. It's totally an edge case and does not really apply to the majority of the content in the game.
Absolutlely I agree, Gearing should always be for your progression encounter. VT HM used to be heavy tank damage back when I was doing it as relevant content. I list sinestra because it is one of the few fights that still pose a threat in my current tank gear. Parses from something like atramedes are pretty useless as it never posed a real threat to the tank.


Secondly, some of what you say is really not accurate. Parry and Dodge stop being more valuable than Mastery after even moderate amounts of Mastery is on your gear. The reason people keep pushing Mastery is because Mastery has increasing returns while Parry and Dodge have diminishing returns. Mastery is a clear winner in terms of a stat to stack for optimal damage reduction.
My comment was in response to your post in your rawr thread update. Where you had suggested that rawr would help us with the balancing act of mastery/parry/dodge as our gear levels progressed. I remember pushing my current gear levels through rawr and it came up with dodge and parry providing more damage reduction than mastery. I opted to maintain my mastery focus (to reduce the number of unblocked hits). Admittedly, I have not run my numbers through rawr since.


Also, if 'neither meta gem takes a step towards [your] goal', how is that even relevant? Pick the best one, then. For a well-geared tank who has stacked Mastery, the Block meta gem reduces more damage. That's just simple math. As I quoted, if you prioritize damage reduction you get the Block meta, if you want more EH you get the Armor meta.
Sorry, "Primary Goal"
1) Get unblocked hits off your hit table as much as you reasonably can. Unblocked hits hit 43% harder than blocked ones. This is where a tanks "spiking" comes from.
2) Once you've made any reasonable trade for mastery - gear for what kills you on progression encounters.

So I look at my options that remain after step one. Which tend to be: Cloak enchant/Bracer Enchant/Trinket/Meta Gem and I take a step towards my second priority. Right now this tends to be unblocked hits, but in the future it might be more spell damage. But I have yet to come into a case where blocked hits have lead to my death (even through healer mana concerns).


But, again, if you are in an edge case where you need more EH--by all means, pick EH. However, that simply doesn't apply to most content and the meta gem is honestly not the most effecient place to get it, either, as the budget is quite imbalanced compared to gem or trinket slots.

I'm not an edge case, everyone is progressing through content. I just don't see for what progression content you would wear the block meta.

Kojiyama
05-01-2011, 09:22 AM
My comment was in response to your post in your rawr thread update. Where you had suggested that rawr would help us with the balancing act of mastery/parry/dodge as our gear levels progressed. I remember pushing my current gear levels through rawr and it came up with dodge and parry providing more damage reduction than mastery. I opted to maintain my mastery focus (to reduce the number of unblocked hits). Admittedly, I have not run my numbers through rawr since.


The issue with this is that the value of Mastery (and Parry/Dodge, for that matter) is transient. At a given time, adding 30 Parry might be better than 30 Mastery, but that may not be the case if you swap all the Parry on all your gear for Mastery. This is why in Rawr you should often use the Optimizer for rebalancing avoidance stats rather than whatever appears as best for a given slot by itself.

This is really Blizzard's fault for allowing the stats to scale differently over time rather than having a consistent value, but that's just the mechanics of it.

The reason I say gearing for EH is an edge case is because, by and large, there is not more than maybe 2 fights in the entire game right now that require active gearing for EH to be successful. Heck, even heroic-geared tanks with zero Stamina gems can be pushing 200k buffed health. Trinkets are really the only thing you need in order to have enough EH to survive the majority of content in the game.

Due to that, many people focus on Mitigation due to healer mana concerns and lowering their overall damage taken.

Realistically, it's not as if the Armor from the meta (~0.44% reduction) is going to save you on a given unblocked swing either. The modifier is so small that both metas really only serve the purpose of lowering your overall damage taken over time. On a specific fight where you are dying due to 200 health overkills, sure, but that really doesn't apply in most cases. Most of the times I die, it is due to longer periods of reduced (or no) healing due to either mana or environmental issues for the healers.

Even if your screenshotted combat log example, I'm quite certain that the Block meta would have reduced more damage between the two points at which you were topped off. After all, you Blocked 5 out of the 7 incoming hits.

On the two unblocked hits, the Armor meta would have reduced roughly 910 damage. Whereas the Block meta would have reduce the third Blocked swing alone by 984 damage even if it was a normal block--as it was a Critical Block, it would have reduced it by 1968. By the third swing, the two are fairly even given a normal block as the Armor meta would have reduced the third swing by around 170 damage, but with a Critical Block thrown in there the Block meta is much, much higher.

You then take another two blocked hits without any real healing, which means the Block meta would have reduced the damage by a quite a bit more between when you were topped off and when you started getting major healing again after the breath.

In the series where you got only around 36.7k healing, the Block meta would have reduced your incoming damage by 4473, while the Armor meta would reduce it by 1540. That's 2.9 times as much reduction for the Block meta.

It's hard to see how the Armor meta is really helping your chances of survival there. The reality is simply that having a lot of Block not only strengthens the Block meta, but also weakens the Armor meta in terms of raw HPS reduction--Critical Blocks, especially, see very little raw reductions from small amounts of Armor compared to the flat 2% damage reduction provided by the Meta.

Booi
05-01-2011, 10:22 AM
The difference is that my health is coming back up once the blocked hits start. My most vulnerable point is after the two unblocked hits. When they didn't kill me, I was safe as long as I kept blocking.

The block meta's extra damage mitigation only matters if i blocked 5 hits before the two unblocked without being topped off. But that's a null case: because if you block 5 hits in a row, you are topped off.

EDIT: there is other healing from those logs. just using the beacon to illustrate overhealing.
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-yup7u9qqfj9h7qsv/

Kojiyama
05-01-2011, 12:54 PM
I'm not sure you're really paying much attention to the numbers, though. The block meta's damage reduction needs 3 unblocked hits to really fall behind. It's massively larger.

It doesn't 'only matter if you block 5 hits'--it's nearly 3 times larger when you block 5 hits. It already matters once you block 1. Furthermore, 1 Critical Block with the Block meta is worth the damage reduction from the Armor on almost 4 unblocked swings.

Your vulnerable point is not just the unblocked hits. Your vulnerable point is all of the hits between when you were full and when you got topped up again. Your healing was negligible during that period, and the Blocks saved your life. As such, you are already relying on the Blocks so save your life, so I fail to see why you are adverse against bigger Blocks with a higher chance of saving your life.

Honestly, the chance of the Armor meta saving your life is much, much lower than the Block meta doing the same thing.

If you have as much Mastery as most high-end Warriors, your Block and Avoidance rate is more than high enough to make the Block meta much, much greater a source of damage reduction, and reliable enough given the magnitude of reduction to be worthwhile. 77% of your melee damage taken is while Blocking, after all.

At this point, it kinda sound like you are ignoring the numbers and just sticking with the Armor meta out of habit. The Block meta is almost certainly going to have a higher chance of preventing deaths than the Armor meta with high-end gear. (e.g. 99%+ of the time, given the odds of only 0.2% of you getting 3 unmodified melee swings in a row)

A good practical example is simply your first result on the death browser on WoL.



[20:26:33.711] Sinestra Wrack Booi 12302 (R: 9112)
[20:26:34.781] Sinestra hits Booi 43021 (B: 64532)
[20:26:35.748] Sinestra Wrack Booi 21528 (R: 10252)
[20:26:36.548] Sinestra hits Booi Parry
[20:26:38.407] Sinestra hits Booi 34029 (A: 3632, B: 56492)
[20:26:40.191] Sinestra hits Booi 861 (A: 42688, B: 65324)
[20:26:41.990] Sinestra hits Booi Dodge
[20:26:43.782] Sinestra hits Booi 67559 (A: 2114, B: 29860)
[20:26:44.464] Sinestra Flame Breath Booi 68406 (O: 6812, R: 20894)
[20:26:44.746] Booi dies


From when you went from full to dead over a period of time. During this time, you Blocked or Avoided every incoming attack, yet you still died. It's not just unblocked hits that will kill you--the fact that 77% of your incoming melee damage is Blocked makes this highly unlikely.

In this example, the Block meta would have possibly saved your life. You died to 6812 overkill. The Block meta would have most likely shaved off enough damage for you to survive the Flame Breath that killed you (would have reduced about 7.3k, minus the Armor value--and you'd get some extra spill-over from that big absorb as you would have taken no damage that swing.)

Booi
05-01-2011, 01:24 PM
That death log you linked is when 7 other people were already down, including the off-tank and a healer. A wipe had been called.

Kojiyama
05-01-2011, 01:30 PM
You were still getting heals from 3 healers, but it's not super-important. What matters is the events leading to your death.

I would challenge you to find a log where the Armor meta saved your life. The chances of it are so slim to none that I would really doubt that it will be easy to do so.

Especially for Warriors, where the Block meta's value is doubled on Critical Blocks, the value is so much higher than the Armor meta that I simply cannot think of many situations which could possibly lead to the Armor meta saving your life when the Block meta wouldn't have done the same or better in that (and every other) situation.

This might be a different argument if the Block meta didn't have the same Stamina as the Armor meta. But as they do, the only EH difference is really on the small amount of unblocked hits taken. As a far greater majority of your incoming damage and hits taken are Blocked as a Warrior, the Block meta is simply going to yield a lot more damage reduction a lot more of the time in a pretty reliable way. (As I mentioned, you're already relying on having a high Block% in order to survive the damage you are taking as it is.)

Booi
05-01-2011, 01:40 PM
How do their values compare while shield block is down?

Booi
05-01-2011, 02:08 PM
I would challenge you to find a log where the Armor meta saved your life. The chances of it are so slim to none that I would really doubt that it will be easy to do so.

I kind of think this is an unfair request, world of logs has no "you almost died here" tag. I think if I can reasonably illustrate that tanks die to unblocked hits, that is acceptable?

In any case, through 53 pulls, I found one where I was the cause of the wipe. Don't get the impression that I'm unwilling to change my mind on this subject, I'd really just like to find the "right" answer. "Which meta is going to keep our raid in combat longest?"

http://i53.tinypic.com/xgcwuh.png

Pretty unlucky streak here, and the armour meta certainly made no difference. I wish I had the archived log from this so I could watch my health deficit. I'll do that going forward, and see if I can't find a more quantitative way to figure out what is killing me. Right now I "feel" it is unblocked hits, but I have been wrong before - and I'm certainly not asking the community to validate a perspective based on my feelings.

EDIT: direct link to death log.
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432#tab-deaths
I did get the image off for the flame breath.

EDIT2: austere armour
I'm finding
55.74% (w/out austere)
56.18% (w/austere)

base is then: 44.26%
aust is then: 43.82%
difference is 0.44% as you say

But that difference is relative toa 44.26%
meaning it is actually a 1% reduction reduction all hits.

semantics, but saying it is only 0.44% reduction makes it sound worse than it is.

Booi
05-01-2011, 03:51 PM
Because I am largely interested in worst-case analysis I thought I'd push some numbers through without shield block.

What I find is:
austere averages 0.994% damage reduction on all melees
eternal averages 2.13% damage reduction across all melee hits
eternal's average drops to 1.04% if you assume you're not getting any critical blocks over your death log.

But looking at specific 3 hit streaks that might kill you (at least one unblocked hit):
the eternal was as good as the austere (or "close enough") in any single unblocked hit situation.

Austere really only pulled ahead in a double unblocked combined with a non-critical block
or an obvious three unblocked hit scenario.

And obviously any multiple target tanking scenario's lean towards the eternal as well (since austere's only merit is in burst scenario's)

Long story short - or maybe "long story long" - I'm sold, and will be switching to eternal.

EDIT: (as you have noticed, i like to edit)
the mental loop i was hungup on was "shield block is only 1% block damage when you block, (or 2% when you crit block)"
"who needs to reduce damage when you're reducing damage"
but like the armour argument:
on a blocked hit: you are going from 70 to 69 = 1.43% reduction
or on a crit block hit: you are going from 40 to 38 = 5% reduction

Kojiyama
05-01-2011, 04:00 PM
Well, if you want to look at it that way, it is relative to the remainder. e.g. If you get hit for 92747 like the last hit, the base value would have been 165089. An additional 0.44 reduction is 726 damage, or 0.78% of the damage taken. Still quite a lot smaller than 1%/2% as with the Block meta, and your Block rate is more than sufficient enough to make it much greater in power over time.

The reality is that dying to pure unblocked hits is most likely inevitable with or without the Armor meta. The magnitude of the hits is too great for the minor reduction to realistically save you.

You are relying on Block to keep your incoming damage low--this is, after all, why Mastery is so popular to begin with. It is a fairly reliable and very large reduction in incoming damage.

To survive long strings of attacks where the cumulative benefit of something is likely to be relevant, you will need to Block. If you are Blocking, the Block meta will reduce quite a lot more damage than the Armor meta, and thus be more likely to save your life.

I do totally understand your line of thinking--I preferred the Armor meta for a long time myself. But a combination of factors have made it a bit weaker, really. High Mastery values (and thus low amounts of normal hits) combined with low Armor values (we aren't anywhere near the cap anymore like we were in previous xpacs) have made the Armor multiplier a bit less powerful.

Booi
05-01-2011, 04:50 PM
The reality is that dying to pure unblocked hits is most likely inevitable with or without the Armor meta. The magnitude of the hits is too great for the minor reduction to realistically save you.

This.

And if you can survive two unblocked hits without the armour meta, then eternal is certainly the way to go.

kopcap
05-01-2011, 08:46 PM
Great discussion guys, I'm very glad we started this.

Booi this is a very good example of what I was talking about before:


[22:26:07.065] Sinestra (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/389/?s=8149&e=8432) hits http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432) 99571
[22:26:07.065] Lidow (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/7/?s=8149&e=8432) Beacon of Light (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/53652/?s=8149&e=8432) http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432) +15262
[22:26:07.147] http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432)'s Image of Immortality (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/92222/?s=8149&e=8432) fades from http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432)
[22:26:07.420] http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432) gains Turn of the Worm (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/92355/?s=8149&e=8432) from http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432)
[22:26:07.493] Lidow (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/7/?s=8149&e=8432) Beacon of Light (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/53652/?s=8149&e=8432) http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432) +3165
[22:26:07.620] http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Sprsmoothe (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/24/?s=8149&e=8432) Rejuvenation (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/774/?s=8149&e=8432) http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432) +5933
[22:26:07.700] http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432) Deep Wounds (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/12721/?s=8149&e=8432) Sinestra (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/389/?s=8149&e=8432) 1983
[22:26:07.883] Lidow (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/7/?s=8149&e=8432) Beacon of Light (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/53652/?s=8149&e=8432) http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432) +22844
[22:26:08.283] Lidow (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/7/?s=8149&e=8432) Beacon of Light (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/53652/?s=8149&e=8432) http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432) +3217
[22:26:08.305] http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Sprsmoothe (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/24/?s=8149&e=8432) Healing Touch (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/5185/?s=8149&e=8432) http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432) +26706
[22:26:08.470] http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432)'s Wrack (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/92956/?s=8149&e=8432) is refreshed by Sinestra (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/389/?s=8149&e=8432)
[22:26:08.544] Sinestra (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/389/?s=8149&e=8432) Wrack (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/92956/?s=8149&e=8432) http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432) 5467 (R: 4050)
[22:26:08.573] Lidow (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/7/?s=8149&e=8432)'s Resistance Aura (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/19891/?s=8149&e=8432) fades from http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432)
[22:26:08.573] Sintor (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/2/?s=8149&e=8432)'s Devotion Aura (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/465/?s=8149&e=8432) fades from http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432)
[22:26:08.726] http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432) Deep Wounds (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/12721/?s=8149&e=8432) Sinestra (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/389/?s=8149&e=8432) 1984
[22:26:08.848] Sinestra (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/389/?s=8149&e=8432) hits http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432) 71574 (O: 21173)
[22:26:09.020] http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432)'s Prismatic Elixir (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/79631/?s=8149&e=8432) fades from http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432)
[22:26:09.020] http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432)'s Elixir of the Master (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/79635/?s=8149&e=8432) fades from http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432)
[22:26:09.020] http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432)'s Well Fed (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/87549/?s=8149&e=8432) fades from http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432)
[22:26:09.022] http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432)'s Turn of the Worm (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/92355/?s=8149&e=8432) fades from http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432)
[22:26:09.022] http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432)'s Windwalk (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/spell/74243/?s=8149&e=8432) fades from http://worldoflogs.com/media/images/icons/transparant.png Booi (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-buhg96k4xhoxfxfe/details/103/?s=8149&e=8432)You had the Worm proc and it should have saved you. If you had a tiny bit more mastery, totally achievable with your gear. With Winwalk up you must have missed in decimals of a percent.

Another thing, regarding the defensive elixir. Since the vast majority of damage we take is melee, magic burst is predictable (we got trinket and externals we can rely on) and armor is so good at smoothing it all out, wold not it make more sense to use armor elixir even on a magic heavy fight like Sinestra? Al Akir is the only fight right now that makes me want to use Prismatic to be honest.

Booi
05-01-2011, 09:45 PM
Another thing, regarding the defensive elixir. Since the vast majority of damage we take is melee, magic burst is predictable (we got trinket and externals we can rely on) and armor is so good at smoothing it all out, wold not it make more sense to use armor elixir even on a magic heavy fight like Sinestra? Al Akir is the only fight right now that makes me want to use Prismatic to be honest.

When tanking the whelps the magic damage is much more important than the melee. (Tanking the whelps is more threatening than sinestra - or used to be: pre wrack change) I sit on the prismatic elixir for that. If you really wanted to max/min I guess you could pop multiple elixirs per fight depending on what you are tanking.

EDIT: Sinestra Nerf?
So I was perusing our sinestra logs from tonight to see how big of unblocked hits I was taking without the armour meta. The thing is that the largest hit i took was 91k. Granted inspiration uptime is a lot better tonight as we were running 6 heals for the first time, but the difference between 108k + vs 91k is pretty substantial. I wonder if they stealth nerfed her melee? I only have 6 pulls worth of logs though - so perhaps just a poor sample set.

Airowird
05-02-2011, 08:42 AM
Just to add more topic to the discussion:
How much would Effulgent meta help in a "big-breath" boss fight vs the other two?
Obviously a fight like Chimaeron wouldn't be worth it, but perhaps there are fights where a second helm with a different meta would be more useful?

Booi
05-02-2011, 09:55 AM
In the sinestra example, the breath is hitting as hard as an unblocked melee. Meaning that one breath with effungent is worth 2 melees on an austere - or one with an eternal.

To generalize. Assuming you can take two unblocked hits without dying.

If breath / melee <= 1
austere >= effungent
eternal >= 2x effungent

If breath / melee >= 2
effungent > 2x austere
effungent >= eternal

Until the breaths are twice as large as an unblocked hit, I'm not sure I would make the switch. Especially since, as kopcap says, you're saving CDs for those breaths anyways.

EDIT: unless the effungent's is always 2% off the base hit?
ie. 100k breath
Defensive stance = -10%
brings it to 90k
shield wall brings it to 54k

does effungent bring it to 52k or 52.92k?

EDIT2:
there's not a chance that it works like that, there is no precedence to have it and your other damage reduction effects both originate from the base value of the attack. blah blah i'll stop editing now.

Tengenstein
05-02-2011, 10:05 PM
Multiplacative damage reductions stack, and it doesn't matter which one you calcualte first

100K * 0.9 * 0.98 * 0.60 = 100k * 0.98 * 0.9 * 0.6 = 52.92k total damage reduction from Meta+shieldwall+def stance.

Booi
05-02-2011, 11:10 PM
Went over another 11 logs for sinestra tonight. Nothing over 90k (he runs austere). I really think they nerfed her melee damage.

Booi
05-02-2011, 11:37 PM
Multiplacative damage reductions stack, and it doesn't matter which one you calcualte first

100K * 0.9 * 0.98 * 0.60 = 100k * 0.98 * 0.9 * 0.6 = 52.92k total damage reduction from Meta+shieldwall+def stance.

I understand the mechanics I meant more of: "hey, it's a meta - maybe it functions differently or the tooltip is lying?"
This is because it is a largely underwhelming, and blizzard has made mistakes on tooltips before (or worded them poorly).
Has anyone verified that the meta is actually 2%?

Airowird
05-03-2011, 02:26 AM
Assuming it still works as it did in WotLK, it's 2%, reduced multiplicatively.
Back then I usually ran an alt group with a bear as second tank half the time, so I could afford to grab a separate helm just for meta and use it on fights like twin valks, Sindy,...
Although I only have a healer perspective, I'ld assume that fights such as Maloriak, Nefarion, Elemental Council, Al'Akir are all good fights to use such a meta, as they provide reduction on bursts or healing-intensive moments.

Booi
05-03-2011, 06:29 AM
Assuming it still works as it did in WotLK, it's 2%, reduced multiplicatively.
Back then I usually ran an alt group with a bear as second tank half the time, so I could afford to grab a separate helm just for meta and use it on fights like twin valks, Sindy,...
Although I only have a healer perspective, I'ld assume that fights such as Maloriak, Nefarion, Elemental Council, Al'Akir are all good fights to use such a meta, as they provide reduction on bursts or healing-intensive moments.

So you look at the fights listed:

Al'akir
Even when you are taking 15k dps from acid rain (16 stacks pre-resist), you are still taking over 30k dps from melees. Her unblocked hits (with inspiration) are still over 62k. pulling 2% off of the melees with the eternal is twice as good as pulling 2% off the magic.

On hard mode I find electrocutes a lot less threatening to my life than melees. Perhaps this is due to warrior mobility. Arguably the effungent is infinitely better than the eternal for these, but seriously: electrocutes provide breathing room - they don't kill you.

Council
I'm curious as to what you are finding as magical burst on tanks in this fight. This is the encounter that many tanks were showing up hit/expertise capped with no meaningful loss to survivability. Looking at our last kill 78.6% of damage I took was melee. If it's flame torrent, shield block is already catching every other one of those, and cooldowns like shield wall cover two of them. Still, I can't recall losing a tank to flame torrent. But if you are - sure, switch I guess. There is 0 melee during it, and the effungent is infinitely better.

Nefarian
Add tank: not a chance effungent is close to as good as eternal. You're CDing electrocutes anyways, and the add tank will die to adds - not electrocutes.

Main tank: Unblocked melee hits still break 70k.
electrocute1: shield block, trinket
electrocute2: shield block, shield wall
electrocute3: shield block, trinket
electrocute4: shield block, rallying cry
repeat: and those are your 7 electrocutes for phase 3.

If you are having issues with flame breaths, us a CD rotation on those with shield block getting every other - and call for externals on electrocutes that you don't have a major CD up for. To be fair 3 ticks of the flame breath hit 28% harder than an unblocked melee. But if you can block at least one of the next two connecting melee hits, you're coming out ahead on the eternal.

Maloriak
If you are losing your main tank to phase 1 dark flame damage, then sure: effungent meta - it is infinitely better. (Though likely you're muddling your strat is this is actually the case). If you're not, or you're kiting: there's not a chance effungent comes close to better.

summary
The only situations I would recommend the effungent is if you are dying to 100% DTPS from magic.
If you're not dying to these abilities, I wouldn't even look at effungent.

maloriak: dark vial phase, main tank. (though maybe you should quit standing in dark sludge instead)
council: flame torrent (though maybe you should look where you are using CDs)

Airowird
05-03-2011, 01:21 PM
Al'akir:
You forgot the time moving from whirlwinds, where all your healers are moving as well. Granted, rest of your points are correct.

Council:
Was mostly thinking last phase, because I forgot they fixed the "I hate melee" mechanic.

Nefarian:
p1 I'ld suggest mostly for the crackle, as it is the biggest hit you can probably get. I've seen tanks die to the breath as well, often with only 1 hit right before/after. It also helps your healers during p2, when you're taking nearly 0 melee damage anyway. Wouldn't recommend it for add tank ofc.


Like I said, this comes from a healer perspective where most of the mentioned abilities result in a minor increase in stress (from 105% to 110% of the healthy treshold), so I thought I'ld just see if it was worth it as secondary meta for specific situations (perhaps Firelands will bless us with another magic dmg boss)

Kojiyama
05-14-2011, 03:08 AM
"The shield block value bonus from Eternal Earthsiege Diamond has been increased to 3%, up from 1%."

Hmm... not sure why this was needed given the numbers we have discussed in this thread. Seems like this change is gonna make Eternal absolutely slaughter Austere.

Tengenstein
05-14-2011, 04:39 AM
i think thats the point though, they want Warriors/Pallies to use X over Y, if X isn't attractive enough they buff X, or Nerf Y, and they can't Nerf Y without Screwing over the absorb tanks who can't use X. And while some of us read this thread and ones like it elswhere, I would hazard a guess the vast majority are still using the austere

Booi
05-14-2011, 06:15 AM
"The shield block value bonus from Eternal Earthsiege Diamond has been increased to 3%, up from 1%."

Hmm... not sure why this was needed given the numbers we have discussed in this thread. Seems like this change is gonna make Eternal absolutely slaughter Austere.

After the proposed paladin nerf from 40% blocks to 30%. I fully expect a Warrior block nerf to follow. This change may be with other changes in mind. A large portion of this meta's value is due to critical blocks, maybe we'll lose them altogether.

Kojiyama
05-14-2011, 06:27 PM
Hmm, even if that's the case it will still probably be quite superior. The loss to the base block values wouldn't impact the meta at all, since it's a flat add--perhaps a slight compensation, but either way it would leave the Austere pretty low on the totem pole.

Do see what you're saying Tengenstein, but considering we're already showing the Eternal as better than the Austere, tripling it's value seems a bit overkill!

Bigbad
05-15-2011, 06:13 AM
Did some math on the metagems. Armor without austere 58,10% reduction, with 58,58% reduction. The values below are percentage of full damage taken, armor reduction multiplied by block/critblock.

Austere: hit 41,42% block 28,99% critblock 16,57%
Eternal(1%): hit 41,90% block 28,91% critblock 15,92%
Eternal(3%): hit 41,90% block 28,07% critblock 14,25%

Austere will provide a bit more EH equivalent of 1-2k hp compared to the eternal(1%) in a worst case scenario. Eternal(1%) metagem will provide a little bit more average damage reduction mostly cause of the critblocks.
Looking at the eternal(3%) metagem it will even be better in a worst case scenario assuming it will include normal blocks.

Kojiyama
05-15-2011, 08:46 AM
It's worth converting those differences into reduction pecentages as well, especially with the increasing returns of raw percentages at high levels of reduction.

41.9% vs. 41.42% means you will take 1.15% less net damage on normal hits with the Austere compard to the 3% Eternal.

On the other hand, you will take 3.17% less net damage on blocks and 14% less net damage on critical blocks with the 3% Eternal.

Tengenstein
05-15-2011, 09:25 AM
14% is....alot, even with a two roll system for crit blocks

Bigbad
05-15-2011, 09:26 AM
I find it easier to compare the metagems when looking at the percentages i posted, but you're right the 2,32% difference on crit blocks is quite huge relative to each other.