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View Full Version : Warrior 2.35% Mastery or 7,098 HP?



Bodasafa
04-15-2011, 06:43 PM
Basically I'm looking at 2 different gemming theories. A larger stamina approach or more mastery.

Here is my armory for reference: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/eldrethalas/bodasafa/advanced

So if I swap all gems to:
Red - Parry/Mastery
Blue - Stamina/Mastery
Yellow - Pure Mastery
BS/Belt Buckle - Pure Mastery

I would gain 2.35% mastery putting me just over 55%. However I loose 7,098 HP in doing so.

Is this a good move?

Gregasaurous
04-15-2011, 07:39 PM
From the looks of your gear i would say you're doing Heroic raids, correct? If this is the case you may want to be cautious when lowering your health. Though if at this point in time, healers are having limited problems keeping you at a safe health level, i would say go ahead and gem in some mastery.

Off the topic of this though, i was looking at your reforge's and gear stats, and out of curiousity, whit is you parry/dodge?

myndflame
04-15-2011, 08:37 PM
Health

Aggathon
04-15-2011, 08:44 PM
In our experience, once you have ~359ish avg. ilevel your dodge/parry/block levels are high enough (especially since at your levels you're easily over 102.4% with shield block up) that you don't need to focus on gemming for them directly and you can start focusing more on stam. Furthermore your healers probably have enough gear that healing a tank isn't an issue and the EHP model comes into effect more and healer mana is going to be strained a lot more based on the raid taking avoidable damage than straight up tank healing. A lot of heroic modes (like Atramedes, Chimaeron to an extent, etc.) tend to favor EHP/Stam, and the fights that don't favor EHP/Stam tank healing really just doesn't matter b/c the bosses hit like little kittens.

kopcap
04-16-2011, 12:30 AM
Your avoidance will not reach "high enough" in this tier. Healers struggling for mana is one of the biggest reasons to stack more mastery. Only done half the heroic fights yet, but not much that would favor stam approach, chim is certainly not one of them.

Bottom line, the more mastery you get the better it gets. Don't think of it as "+2.35% to block". Think of it as "-12% to catch an unmitigated hit and set your healers hair on fire". Stamina is just a comfort cushion for you healers, worry about it when they start complaining that you die in two hits and on extremely magic heavy fights.

klausi
04-16-2011, 12:52 AM
At your current progression stage you can stick to the pure mastery route including trinkets and the choice of elixir over flasks. Only if you happen to engage Nef/Cho'gall heroic anytime soon or tanking Maloriak himself instead of any other tanking class it's time for some additional hitpoints to counter the extreme magical burst damage.

Deathwish238
04-16-2011, 01:18 AM
Mastery will reduce far more damage than the health you gain from Stamina. I gem straight Mastery unless I want the socket bonus and then I do Mastery/Parry or Mastery/Stamina.

Bigbad
04-16-2011, 02:03 AM
I got about the same setup but with more mastery gemming: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/wildhammer/bigbadorugly/simple

Currently 4/13 HC so about the same progress as you, on magmaw, chimaeron and maloriak(adds) i just don't die unless i do something stupid. I feel like i really don't need more stam, this is with a stam flask. The only thing i can think of is that the stam flask is a little under budget so gemming for 300 more stam and using elixers is slightly better then what I'm doing atm, but they will bump up the stamina flask to 450 stam in 4.1

Raiju
04-16-2011, 02:59 AM
I used to favor mastery while working through normal modes and starting heroics, but found that the hc bosses my guild was working on hit very hard (magmaw, valiona) and so decided to regem for stam: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/shadowsong/rayj/advanced (6/13 25hc)

Still I almost always use mirror + stam trinket

Deathwish238
04-16-2011, 09:56 PM
If you can maintain 50% block and 25 % dodge+parry...it's not the worst idea to gem stamina. Mastery will still reduce a lot more damage and save your healers more net mana...but Stamina is nice if you're dying within 4-5 hits.

Gregasaurous
04-17-2011, 05:52 PM
If you can maintain 50% block and 25 % dodge+parry.

I would suggest a slightly higher (mastery:dodge+parry) ratio. Not to drastically, but noticibly different. Don't forget 5% miss chance by bosses too.

Deathwish238
04-18-2011, 05:34 AM
Any math behind an optimal mastery:avoidance ratio? Or perhaps Mitigation:Avoidance ratio.

Katzazi
04-18-2011, 06:35 AM
Deathwish such a question could only possibly answered with a much more precise approach. I doubt you can answer it at all. There is math about optimal points of dmg reduction for paladins and warriors for different mastery:avoidance ratios. But it's not a very usefull information, since mastery is not really about dmg reduction but about (also) about dmg smoothing. Another thing about mastery is to increase combat table coverage (CTC). Point by point you get a better CTC from mastery in most situations, but that again does not tell you much until you reach full coverage.

There are some clear fix-points that one would try to reach and where the answer is easy how to distribute your available points best, but those are seldom.

The math itself is quite complicated, especially for warriors who also have to integrate stuff like crit block and the talent Hold the Line. As far as I remember the thread about it, the best approach is to use some estimates for most approaches.

But as long as you don't clarify what you would want to optimize it's hard to even point you to the right thread to answer your question. However in most cases the answer would be "go for as much mastery as possible", at least with current gear for paladins and warriors.

Gregasaurous
04-18-2011, 11:11 AM
I have seen references to threads where somebody crunched out the math and figured out the optimal balance of stats that is reachable in this tier, but i couldn't direct you to it if my life depended on it. Your guiding star is mostly as Katzazi said, "go for as much mastery as possible"

Loganisis
04-18-2011, 11:18 AM
There is a way in RAWR... I recall Koji posting something about mastery to some point, then mastery and parry balancing after that... but I haven't figured out how to do that in RAWR yet.

Katzazi
04-18-2011, 03:00 PM
You just have to look at the stat values. (I think it was the last option in the drop-down menue where you pick the slot that you want to have shown.) There you can see how the values are worth compared to each other with your current gear. But it does not change that mastery is always better than parry and dodge before reaching 102.4% which is not possible at the moment. (At least if you are "near enough" to get to 77.4% in the first case.)

The thing that Koij mentioned was that parry get's much better than dodge with "high" mastery. It's a very drastic effect. With high mastery the difference between dodge and parry should be much greater than the 3% that most people advice to have.


Another option is to just let Rawr figure out the best treatment to your available gear. You can do that via the optimizer. The tricky part is to teach it to pick set bonuses for your gems if you want to have them and to not go for stamina too much. (I think if you want to read more about this, it would be best to open a special thread for just that, or look for an existing one.)

Deathwish238
04-19-2011, 05:50 AM
It's too easy to figure it out on your own. Threat Stat -> Mastery. If there's Mastery already, Threat -> Parry or Dodge. If the piece is both Parry and Dodge, the higher of the two -> Mastery. You can gem Stamina, but what's the point if Mastery will reduce more damage and save your healers more mana in the end.

Mastery doesn't suffer from diminishing returns while Parry and Dodge do. That alone will pretty much always make it superior. Throw in that 1 point of Mastery gives you 1.5% Shield Block vs only 1% of Parry/Dodge giving you only 1% Parry/Dodge. Mastery is 50% more effective to begin with in the goal towards unhittable and suffers no DR.

Katzazi
04-19-2011, 06:00 AM
Your suggestion of reforging is not optimal. It's a nice approach, but it can be better.

If you have an item with threat stat + parry / dodge and the value of parry or dodge is at least 1.5 times the value of the threat stat, you can get more out of it, if you reforge parry/dodge -> mastery instead of the threat stat. Even if it is not intuitive.

Deathwish238
04-19-2011, 07:19 AM
Yeah you can get more mastery out of it that way, but I'ld rather end up with more total avoidance/mitigation.

If you have a piece with 100 Expertise and 150 Parry...you can reforge the Expertise for 40 Mastery or the 150 Parry for 60 Mastery. I'ld take the 150 Parry and 40 Mastery over the 90 Parry and 60 Mastery. 20 Mastery is not worth losing 60 Parry.

kopcap
04-19-2011, 07:25 AM
Stat values are not absolute and depend greatly on your current gear. Each case should be assessed individually, ie plugged into spreadsheets / sims.


Any math behind an optimal mastery:avoidance ratio? Or perhaps Mitigation:Avoidance ratio.
I'm pretty sure point-per-point you should go for (infinity):0 for all practical purposes at the current state of the game.

Gregasaurous
04-19-2011, 09:47 AM
@Deathwish
This does give you more mastery, true, but overall i don't see it putting you above somebody who reforged out only non-defensive stats (mastery, parry and dodge being defensive). Though if it's working well for you i'd be interested to see a battle log.

I generally reforge as follows (Note, mastery is the priority; either/or situations depend on what the item already has in it and therefor will not allow me to reforge into it, these are listed in priority)
Threat Stat< Mastery/Parry
Dodge< Mastery/Parry
Parry(single stat trinket)<Mastery
Parry/Mastery items = one less thing to reforge =D


That about covers it. As i get higher level gear and further into the raiding progression i may have to actually keep dodge up a bit more, but as is it sits within 5% of parry. (I don't remember the exact ratio and i don't have easy access to the information on this computer)

Bodasafa
04-19-2011, 03:34 PM
Looks like a mixed bag here, I just remembered I posted this a few days ago and came back lol. Thanks for the replies, not sure I see any concrete evidence leaning one way or the other pertaining to the gemming question, not sure how this transitioned into reforging.

Avoidance is great, but lets be honest you will never get enough for it to matter from gems, so the only clear choices are Mastery or Stamina, for gems.

I remember agreeing with Agg quite a bit in Wrath so I'll follow his logic and see how it goes.

I also just dropped mining for JC =).

Icebreaker
04-20-2011, 01:13 AM
I gemmed Mastery while we were raiding 10m. But in 25m I've found that it looks more like ICC time for me: I'm almost always topped, but if healers or me have to run a bit - I loose my hp too fast. So I've gemmed Mastery/Stamina like 50/50 and feel more comfortable tbh.
And it depends ofc. If the encounter is just phys dmg - mastery trinkets, elixir, food, gear etc. But if most of the dmg is magic - the usefullness of Mastery goes down.

Deathwish238
04-20-2011, 06:00 AM
How much HP do you think is needed for 25 man raids? I'm at about 140k unbuffed.


@Deathwish
This does give you more mastery, true, but overall i don't see it putting you above somebody who reforged out only non-defensive stats (mastery, parry and dodge being defensive). Though if it's working well for you i'd be interested to see a battle log.

I generally reforge as follows (Note, mastery is the priority; either/or situations depend on what the item already has in it and therefor will not allow me to reforge into it, these are listed in priority)
Threat Stat< Mastery/Parry
Dodge< Mastery/Parry
Parry(single stat trinket)<Mastery
Parry/Mastery items = one less thing to reforge =D


That about covers it. As i get higher level gear and further into the raiding progression i may have to actually keep dodge up a bit more, but as is it sits within 5% of parry. (I don't remember the exact ratio and i don't have easy access to the information on this computer)
I think we're saying the same thing? Maximize defensive stats.

I believe the consensus was to have 2.5% more Parry than Dodge optimally.

Loganisis
04-20-2011, 09:09 AM
Deathwish:

25m raiding - you should have 'enough' from gear for normal modes. It's hard modes that stam/mastery question comes into play.

Dodge / Parry differential is basically determined by your mastery level. The more mastery you have, the larger the gap can be between dodge and parry before parry's accelerated diminishing returns cancel out the additional gain from HtL. So if you're just entering heroic dungeons, 2% is likely right, but I've seen most HM tanks talk about 4-5%.

The 'optimal' difference is gear dependent, not a static number. Have fun trying to figure it out for yourself though (shuffles off to try to figure it out in RAWR).