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redbear
04-09-2011, 01:30 PM
Hi guys been back after a year of not playing wow.
I seen alot of changes.
But it amazes me i loose threat so fast now these days.

can people help me with my toon? maybe i do the wrong enchants/forges.
Or concentrate on the wrong stats as a protection warrior.

ill link mijn warrior now here.

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/eu/magtheridon/redbearone#v1

and wow armory

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/magtheridon/redbearone/simple

any tips to get me on track are greatly appriciated.

Reev
04-09-2011, 01:42 PM
You need to get all the glyphs, first of all. That's absolutely huge. Second, if you're already 5 points into arms already, you may as well spend the 3 more to get Deep Wounds. It's far better for threat than Cruelty, and certainly better than the 2 points you have in Blood Craze.

Likely, though, it has more to do with what you're doing in terms of rotation and setup. Are you marking targets before pulls and concentrating on Skull? How are you prioritizing ability usage? When are you losing threat, and to what sorts of behaviors?

Finally, this thread belongs in the HALP forums, not the Theory and Mechanics forums.

Tengenstein
04-09-2011, 02:49 PM
More Heroic strikes!

redbear
04-09-2011, 03:29 PM
Hi Reev,

Thanks for your quick response.
Iam looking at some glyphs here.. but some are not so huge..
but talking about stats.. is exp still huge in tanking? or not anymore?
I viewed a film on youtube it says for threat exp (26) and hit are good for threat.
since mine are poor at least to say... that might one of the few points i loose it.

then back to the rotation.
on single target
i hit shield block first before i pull the boss then heroric through and then shieldslam.
after that devastate if revenge pops up ill hit revenge whenever it pops same goes for the shieldslam.
then whenever those are on cooldown ill hit heroric strike whenever.
then do loop untill boss dead.

mobs.

kinda depence.

sometimes i try to rush in.. rend then thunderclap hit the shockwave when they are alligned.
So they are all effected by the stun.

if there more seprate. ill ask to sheep or iceblock the healers. then tank the rest..
put a skull on the first target.

what i didnt do.. it put a cross on the second.
i might want to do that.

what still failed...is even when iam on a boss i loose aggro from a mage.
it is really frustrating. it used to be simple in the old days.
now i have to rearrange how this works now.

so yeah this is what i have now. i will surly change the suggested talents in my spec.

again thanks again for helping me.

regards,

Redbear.

klausi
04-09-2011, 08:10 PM
I viewed a film on youtube it says for threat exp (26) and hit are good for threat.
since mine are poor at least to say... that might one of the few points i loose it.
They are good for threat. Without hitcap and hardcap expertise you're going to miss almost 1/3 of your attacks. But once vengeance kicked in this is something that doesn't have to worry you so it's basically only important for snap aggro or on pulls. So the question is how much avoidance/migitation you're willing to drop for gaining some advantage at the start of the fight?

Regarding rotation:
You want to use heroic throw, concussion blow and shockwave for single target aggro as well. Shieldslam on cooldown is fine, rev/dev two times afterwards to force a sword & board procc but if this doesn't happen weave in one of those 3 abilities mentioned above (whatever is off cooldown).
For multitarget you want to roll rend via blood and thunder, shockwave on cooldown and spam cleave/revenge while shieldslam the marked mob (for focus dps).

Regarding specc:
Shield Mastery 3/3 ASAP. I'd drop thunderstruck, gag order and bloodcraze in favor of deep wounds and 3/3 shield specc.

Reev already mentioned the glyphs, go get them :)

redbear
04-10-2011, 02:39 AM
Again all thanks for the quick response.
Still any given adivse on the glyphs are welcome.
I dont care to put in a few hunderd gold for it. just want to make sure its the right one for the given job.

klausi
04-10-2011, 04:14 AM
Prime should be clear, there are only three tanking glyphs. For major you want to pick up all of them and swap depending on the fight/specc (eg: stronger shieldwall, better aoe aggro with cleave, thunderclap and shockwave or more utility with intervene or piercing howl) and for minor you'll need battle/commanding (swap depending on your lineup), demo shout and berserker rage.

Leverage
04-10-2011, 05:39 AM
The 3/3 shield spec confused me a bit, i have not found myself getting even close to rage starved in any of the current content with 1/3. Even now running 2% hit and 0 exp rage is still my last concern. On a side note i would not get used to using exp and hit as a crutch for threat. If you go into current raiding content with 26 exp and solid hit rating you will get crushed, unless you get lucky and have amazing healers. I would think learning to tank without it now will benefit you in the future.

truculent
04-10-2011, 05:49 AM
Rage starvation largly depends on how liberal you are with HS. I have to make a conscious effort to not rage starve myself. Im very agressive while tanking, someone who is less agressive then me would probably never need to consider rage management as much as I do. Someone who is as agressive as I am may make use of some hit and/exp. Personally, I have a decent amount of exp, and specd full sm.

klausi
04-10-2011, 06:04 AM
The 3/3 shield spec confused me a bit, i have not found myself getting even close to rage starved in any of the current content with 1/3.
Doesn't this indicate you could make good use of additional rage? Only if you find yourself rage starved all the time you should consider dumping points.

Leverage
04-10-2011, 06:12 AM
This would not indicate what you are stating at all, perhaps i was unclear. If i am already ( and have always ) maintained threat, and had excess rage with with 1/3 ss...then how would more rage help ? More dps perhaps... this really should not be any tanks main concern though.

Leverage
04-10-2011, 06:31 AM
Regardless though looking at his current spec the 2 points in ss could only be shifted to thunderstruck or cruelty anyways. So its not like he could pickup anything but extra threat gen.

Loganisis
04-10-2011, 06:57 AM
If, after using HS liberally, you are still swimming in rage (and after using innerrage) then, switching the 2 points would make sense. But HS is a very hard hitting ability after some vengence gain, usually only behind the big 3 (SS, Con Blow, and Shockwave) after you get vengence stacked, and with IR, you can hit it every 1.5 seconds, or ever 3 seconds without IR.

Moving 2 points from Shield Spec to Cruelty/Thunderstruck and dropping the number of HS used is not optimal. You'll get more threat using that 'extra' rage with HS.

truculent
04-10-2011, 07:56 AM
If, after using HS liberally, you are still swimming in rage (and after using innerrage) then, switching the 2 points would make sense. But HS is a very hard hitting ability after some vengence gain, usually only behind the big 3 (SS, Con Blow, and Shockwave) after you get vengence stacked, and with IR, you can hit it every 1.5 seconds, or ever 3 seconds without IR.

Moving 2 points from Shield Spec to Cruelty/Thunderstruck and dropping the number of HS used is not optimal. You'll get more threat using that 'extra' rage with HS.


perfectly said. The biggest threat gain you could gain at the moment, would be from more heroic strikes. It is almost, if not totally impossible to make use of every HS cd including inner rage uptime and not go rage starved specd 1/3. that said, you can spec 3/3 and pop IR with SB. The result is a large threat burst. If you want to incorporate this technique into you opening, just pop a rage pot right before you shout>charge.

IMO, the difference between top warr tanks and awful warr tanks ( in terms of threat) is their ability to manage rage while getting the max usage of HS possible. That theory is supported by a great number of logs of the top warrior tanks all out ptoforming everyone else In the number of HS's they get off per fight, raid, or phase of a fight.

Kongolo
04-11-2011, 01:41 AM
hi redbear.. few things u could do to improve your tanking.. (but generally u r ok!) :D

Gears:
-Range, replace the http://www.wowhead.com/item=63739 with http://www.wowhead.com/item=56376 or http://www.wowhead.com/item=60210

-trinket replace http://www.wowhead.com/item=55881 with http://www.wowhead.com/item=62466

Talents:
your current setup is good for bosses mainly..

Glyphs:
Prime, add shield slam
Major, add shockwave
minor, add command shout and demo shout

Hope thats helps.. gl :)

Nehama
04-11-2011, 04:21 AM
-trinket replace http://www.wowhead.com/item=55881 with http://www.wowhead.com/item=62466


I disagree. Trinkets are very fight based and imho, Impetuous Query comes out as best on a very large amount of fights. I even use it insteed of a 2nd stam trinket, usually. The only fights I use the mirror are fights like nefarion and chogal, where the large magical attacks are what actually sorts the fight and are far away in between enough for the trinket to reset. On fights with minor magical attacks, I find the on use on the query [10 seconds every 1 min] superior to actually any normal mode trinket.

Generally, I'm just saying that trinkets aren't a blind 'this is best', but more of depending on what the fight is and what sort of damage you're expecting.

Tengenstein
04-11-2011, 04:36 AM
IMO, the difference between top warr tanks and awful warr tanks ( in terms of threat) is their ability to manage rage while getting the max usage of HS possible. That theory is supported by a great number of logs of the top warrior tanks all out ptoforming everyone else In the number of HS's they get off per fight, raid, or phase of a fight.

I am a very liberal Heroic striker, and i need to be, my DPS can pull very big numbers, so i need to be producing that threat. secondly the morew deeps you're pulling the quicker the fight is, the less time for mistakes to happen and the less time healers have to go oom.

HS range between 20-35% of my damage, thats nigh 10% damage per talent point. Tanks need to realise that yes we're tanks and yes we are probably going to be pulling less deeps than DPS, but on an average fight we should be pulling around 10k DPS.

redbear
04-11-2011, 10:37 AM
Hi all,

Ill put your tips in as soon as i get my glyps and gear changes.
some just wont drop.. i guess most people know how that feels.
Again awesome.. keep in the good advise.
Since all i used to know from WotlK i actually can put out of the window now.
Oh another question quick guys... any good setup for hitting those icons?
I still use the original WoW thingie. so no X-Pearl.
every bit helps i guess.

Kongolo
04-12-2011, 03:24 AM
I disagree. Trinkets are very fight based and imho, Impetuous Query comes out as best on a very large amount of fights. I even use it insteed of a 2nd stam trinket, usually. The only fights I use the mirror are fights like nefarion and chogal, where the large magical attacks are what actually sorts the fight and are far away in between enough for the trinket to reset. On fights with minor magical attacks, I find the on use on the query [10 seconds every 1 min] superior to actually any normal mode trinket.

Generally, I'm just saying that trinkets aren't a blind 'this is best', but more of depending on what the fight is and what sort of damage you're expecting.

Indeed it is very useful, but its more for BoT trash or fast/hard hitting bosses.. in the other hand the mirror have big mastery boss's fights few~alot magical dmg.. like magmaw, omnitron defence system, nefarion, halfus (depends on draks), ascendant council and cho'gal

Tengenstein
04-12-2011, 04:04 AM
Hi all,

Ill put your tips in as soon as i get my glyps and gear changes.
some just wont drop.. i guess most people know how that feels.
Again awesome.. keep in the good advise.
Since all i used to know from WotlK i actually can put out of the window now.
Oh another question quick guys... any good setup for hitting those icons?
I still use the original WoW thingie. so no X-Pearl.
every bit helps i guess.

What I do (and this only works with Older versions of Bartender) is go to the wow interface option and turn on all the bars except Right bar 2

I then keybind page bar Up to something convenient (i personally use the T key)

this will allow you to rotate through 3 action bars

On one bar put your normal setup of icons for the main bar. Make sure it has things like Rev, Dev, Heroic Strike and shield Slam on it.

on next bar i've got an identical setup of icons except Rev, Dev, and shield slam have Cleave macroed to them, and an Inner rage off/on macro replaces the Heoric Strike

On the next bar Icons are identical to the first Bar except Rev, and Dev have heroic strike macroed to them and an Inner rage off/on macro replaces the Heoric Strike

A basic macro

#showtooltip
/cast ability
/cast dump

ability should be replaced with an ability I.e. Revenge, Devastate, or shield slam. dump should be replaced by a rage Dump; Heoric strike or cleave

Inner rage off/on macro

#showtooltip
/cancelaura inner rage
/cast inner rage

Pressing this once will activate inner rage, pressing it a second time (or any other time while IR is up will cancel IR


The first bar is your manual Rage dumping bar and is where you'll be sitting on fights where you don't get alot of Rage to play with. The second Bar os your AoEbar, on things like offtanking magmaw or maloriak this is the Bar you will eventually slip into since Rage shouldn't be a problem. like wise for the majority of most boss fights you'll be Bar three mostly. if while in bar 2 or 3 your capping rage, pop IR, and cancel it when you've burnt enough rage. Do not be afraid of swapping back bar 1 if Rage is isn't sufficuient, this setup is all about using the right bar for a given rage intake. you may find you need to swap back to the manual bar if the dragon has a long casting breath attack, Likewise on most encounters you don't need to saver Zerker rage to Break a fear/charm/sap so you can use it liberally to and conjunctively with IR to artifically produce the rage for some Heavy dumping. It's probably a good idea to get an addon to moniter your rage, I use PowaAuras. i have it set to give the edge of mys screen a red Mist whan i have above 55 rage, so i can be safe to HS, I also ahve a another identical one that activates the same effect (the effects stack giving a much more vibrant mist) if i'm above 85 rage, so i can eaither swith to automatic mode, or if already there usr IR to manage rage.

Leverage
04-12-2011, 01:23 PM
Oh another question quick guys... any good setup for hitting those icons?
I still use the original WoW thingie. so no X-Pearl.
every bit helps i guess.

Sounds like your talking about clicking ( activating abilities by mouse clicking them on screen ). If so i would change the way you play in general, keybind everything one way or another. I personally use a speed pad and a steel series wow cata mouse ( the naga is good also if you have girl thumbs :) ) . I feel this is by far the most important/ beneficial thing you can do as a tank. Eventually you will know what every button does without even having to think about it.

redbear
04-13-2011, 09:14 AM
Hi again,

Well your tips and hints seem to help out a greatdeal already. even i didnt buy yet all the glyphs because it seems some dont have those glyphs. or they dont put em on AH. anyways... it did help with the HS on bosses... not so much aggro loss anymore. plus telling people what to attack and sheep etc helped a great deal also. that is if they listen some just want to pull and expect you to pull the adds of them.
Anyways anough of that still iam open for extra info and suggestions for raids etc. iam now at lvl item 351. it seems its importent again that you have a lvl item you go for.. makes me remind of WotlK with GS.. i hated it since some people put the highest item lvl in instead the best for the job. again thank you all for your input still always open for more suggestions plus what kinda mouse i would buy for it?

klausi
04-13-2011, 07:37 PM
it seems its importent again that you have a lvl item you go for.. makes me remind of WotlK with GS..
Your new "GS" improves automatically while playing and progressing and it's an indicator for you when it's time to move on. If somebody uses it to build his/her group just move on, the gap between decent gear and skill is bigger then ever.

When you're done with questing you end up somewhere between 312 (green quest rewards) and 333 (blue quest rewards, lvl 84-85 dungeon drops on normal mode). When you're done with normal mode dungeons and gained some justice point gear (346) you're ready for heroics (at least itemlevel 329 to queue with LFD tool). And when you're done with heroic dungeons you're somewhere in between 333 (drops you couldn't replace yet) and 359 (reputation epics or boe epic drops). Now you're ready for raids, it's no problem at all still running around with a 312 green strength gun because the only replacement didn't drop in 5 runs.

For mice suggestions.. visit any shop and don't buy them online. You'll work with it for the rest of your (or it's :D) life, you really should feel comfortable with it.

For glyphs: ask in /trade for an inscription guy?!

Eries
05-24-2011, 03:55 PM
Astonished nobody mentioned this by now... Heroic Strike less and Inner Rage more you'll be surprised how much better your tps is gonna get that way.

Heroic strike rly got nerfed to being a rage dump for those times your rage capped or so.

Also deep wounds is pretty much useless.

Gneecapper
05-24-2011, 04:36 PM
More dps perhaps... this really should not be any tanks main concern though.

This particular statement bothers me, I understand where you're coming from in the sense that survivablility > threat/dps in all instances where you aren't losing aggro w/ ideal rotations. I know it has been addressed by a few others posters as well but I wanted to say something on the matter.

However it SHOULD be the responsibility of all tanks and all raiders to maximize their DPS output regardless of their "role". Sure I may do 50% of the dps that a specced player may run but I can still pull anywhere from 7-11k on an average fight depending on my mood.

Lets take H. 10man Chimaeron for example, 7minute enrage 36,246,000 health.

A difference in 4k dps over the course of a 7minute fight (enrage timer, I know guilds kill much faster than 7mins) ends up being 1.5Million damage which is huge approximately 4% of the bosses total health. If all you care about is survivability you're not as good of a tank as you could be if you were trying to maximize damage out and minimize damage in. Killing the boss 4% quicker certainly will do a lot for your healers mana pools and your damage taken.

I spam HS as much as I can possibly manage with out messing up my standard tanking priority list and I can rage starve myself very easily if I wanted to using 3/3.

I know my example is not perfect however it does put some sort of perspective on the differences a tank can have on a fight through damage output.

If holding aggro and keeping dmg to a minimum was my only role I'd only be using my offensive abilities for about the first 2 minutes of a standard boss fight and could essentially afk until a positioning change is required.

Ever since the SWP and BT farming days I've been trying to push my DPS and TPS numbers high as I can regardless of the fight. I like seeing 60k tps instead of 30k even if DPS is only pulling 20k.

Tengenstein
05-24-2011, 05:27 PM
Astonished nobody mentioned this by now... Heroic Strike less and Inner Rage more you'll be surprised how much better your tps is gonna get that way.

What's the point of using IR if you're HSing less?



Heroic strike rly got nerfed to being a rage dump for those times your rage capped or so.


um, thats exactly what heroic strike always has been for Prot. what else are you trying to use as?



Also deep wounds is pretty much useless.

You sir, are either wrong, badly misinformed, or trolling. could you please explain what makes Deep wounds "pretty much useless" asits making up 3-6% of my damage and that makes it more threat per point than Cruelty, Thunderstruck, Imp. Revenge, Incite, Gag order, safeguard or enduring victory.

Unless you mean that since Deep wounds is only a threat talent, and threat is non-concenr after the first 30 seconds. but the OP of the fight is not in that situation.

Rystrave
05-25-2011, 10:18 AM
Astonished nobody mentioned this by now... Heroic Strike less and Inner Rage more you'll be surprised how much better your tps is gonna get that way.

Heroic strike rly got nerfed to being a rage dump for those times your rage capped or so.

Also deep wounds is pretty much useless.

/facepalm

Loganisis
05-25-2011, 11:00 AM
Astonished nobody mentioned this by now... Heroic Strike less and Inner Rage more you'll be surprised how much better your tps is gonna get that way.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1134


Heroic strike rly got nerfed to being a rage dump for those times your rage capped or so.

Yes, it did get nerfed. No it is not just a rage dump. It actually hits about as hard as Rev/Dev or harder. You just prioritize rage for Rev/Dev because they can trigger SnB procs, and SW/CB > HS. It's not that HS is bad, and it's not a rage dump. Hell early on in a fight it's key to building threat so DPS can go all out - since it's not on the GCD.


Also deep wounds is pretty much useless.

For AoE, I'd buy this quote. Otherwise - nope. Deep wounds, as Teng said, is better than any optional threat talent in terms of threat/talent point. It's just that good. If you want to say there's something better, that the opportunity cost is too high - well, then post a build you'd prefer. But Deep Wounds being useless for single-target environments is just plain ludicrious.