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Synista
04-06-2011, 05:05 PM
Ok so I know rule of thumb is keeping parry higher than dodge by 1%~ for HTL upkeep, but I recently got Windwalk and with the windwalk proc I go from 11.94 Dodge to 14.56 and my parry is 13.22%. Should I get my parry higher so that when windwalk procs that Parry stays higher?

EDIT: Parry is 13.22% my bad.

Insahnity
04-06-2011, 05:09 PM
No, you missed the point. Always gear for the stat that gives you more bang for the buck. If you stack parry and one more point gives less than one more point of dodge, they you are doing it wrong. IF ALL THINGS ARE EQUAL (i.e. 1 point of dodge is about the same as 1 point of parry), then favour the parry.

If you happen to get a WW proc, it's a bonus. Don't gear around it. You could gear around a static Dodge gain, but not a proc.

Kerchunk
04-06-2011, 06:32 PM
Always gear for the stat that gives you more bang for the buck.

Okay, but isn't HTL part of that "bang" calculation? You seem so adamant are you basing this on some specific analysis?

Loganisis
04-06-2011, 10:08 PM
The actual amount of parry rating your should have in excess of dodge as a WarTank does vary. I haven't figured out how to find the exact benefit in RAWR yet (Koji to the rescue?) but you are right in that because of HtL, Parry, even at a greater rate of diminishing returns, is better than dodge to some point. That point is variable based on total ratings in dodge/parry/mastery, etc, but you can use 1-3% more as a 'guideline' but the actual math is pretty involved. As far as I know, pallys are pure parry/dodge balancing.

****

That being said, the second half of Inshanity's post is correct, you balance static and procs become 'bonus'. You could do an uptime analysis, but that really wouldn't be a great indicator since you gear for the static level and bonuses are bonus (which is why on-use trinkets tend to be more desirable smart proc trinkets (e.g. you go below 35% health) which tend to be more desirable than pure proc trinkets - because you can control when you get the bonus) and static bonuses > RNG bonus.

***

So the answer is balance dodge/parry based on static values and Windwalk's proc is a bonus on top of that.

MellvarTank
04-07-2011, 07:59 AM
As far as I recall Koji had crunched the numbers and parry is > dodge up untill there is a 4-5% difference in the ratings due to HtL. Basically, you could stack parry to 18% before worrying about dodge.

The answer is not to keep them equal in this tier of gear. There is a thread called "Hold the Line Maths" in the theory and mechanics discussion forum, the posts containing this information are in there.

Nehama
04-07-2011, 10:44 AM
Funny, I remember reading somewhere here that parry is actually ALOT better then dodge. I even reforged fully into parry, having 9.41% dodge and 16.14% parry. Together with my 53.52% block and raid buffs, I still sit on 103%~ total with shield block, but I've noticed the uptime on hold the line buff have doubled itself over a 13%~ dodge/14%~ parry.

Imo, since half of the attacks I recive I block, raising the chance of basicly half the attacks I get by 10% to be reduced by additional 30% is more important then 2-3% to fully resist an attack [which is the diffrence between parry stacking and balance].

The rule of a tumb I remember from that post was X dodge, 2X parry RATINGS. That is, I'm sitting on about 960~ dodge rating and 2200 parry.

Gregasaurous
04-07-2011, 02:48 PM
As stated previously by numerous people, it is good to have your parry significantly higher than dodge due to HTL. Now while you parry:dodge ratio is a little off of what it should be to begin with, having a proc ability that boosts your dodge over your parry isn't bad at all. My parry is 3-4% higher than my dodge, i also have Throngus's Finger (333 not 346) which makes it so when i parry my dodge is effectively raised (only once a minuet) too 1% higher than my dodge.

Loganisis
04-07-2011, 05:57 PM
As far as I recall Koji had crunched the numbers and parry is > dodge up untill there is a 4-5% difference in the ratings due to HtL. Basically, you could stack parry to 18% before worrying about dodge.

The answer is not to keep them equal in this tier of gear. There is a thread called "Hold the Line Maths" in the theory and mechanics discussion forum, the posts containing this information are in there.

wasn't that at top-end gear?

And it's ulitmately the rating, not the % that needs to be balanced, right? Because at least for now, doesn't DR only affect rating (which is hinted at being changed possibly in the future?)?

kopcap
04-07-2011, 06:13 PM
The topic has been beaten to death, the answer is they should be kept close to each other with parry being slightly on top, usually within 20-25% difference in rating between each other. The exact proportion depends on your gear, the better the gear the less the difference there should be. Graphs/numbers are on EJ.

MellvarTank
04-08-2011, 08:08 AM
Graphs/numbers are on EJ.

To my knowledge those graphs/numbers are still from beta testing, not as current as they should be. I could be wrong, but last I heard they were a little slow on their tank theorycrafting.

wasn't that at top-end gear?

And it's ulitmately the rating, not the % that needs to be balanced, right? Because at least for now, doesn't DR only affect rating (which is hinted at being changed possibly in the future?)?

I don't think it was just in top end gear, but once you hit 'unhittable' with shield block up (72.4% dodge/parry/block) that is where it starts to take effect to my knowledge. I hit 72.4% dodge/parry/block in 2 epics and blues.... so not quite top end gear.

I'm pretty sure it ends up being rating instead of percentage, but as I recall the rating where parry wasn't as good as dodge had your parry over 18%. I could be mistaken, because this is all from memory.

kopcap
04-08-2011, 10:11 AM
To my knowledge those graphs/numbers are still from beta testing, not as current as they should be. I could be wrong, but last I heard they were a little slow on their tank theorycrafting.lol no :) they may be slow, but not that slow

even without any sims, simply looking through war totems spreadsheet would tell you the same thing

Quinafoi
04-08-2011, 03:48 PM
wasn't that at top-end gear?

And it's ulitmately the rating, not the % that needs to be balanced, right? Because at least for now, doesn't DR only affect rating (which is hinted at being changed possibly in the future?)?

DR also affects the portion of dodge gained from agility, so no, it is not only affecting rating. Though a tanking class which has parry should not be wearing gear with additional agility on it in the first place.

Insahnity
04-08-2011, 05:32 PM
@Quinafoi: I still want parrying for my bear. Claw Parry FTW.

Back to the post...
Without dragging this into a EH vs Avoidance gearing discussion (also beaten to death, buried, decomposed, forgotten, resurrected, gagged at, and then burned at the stake)...

Unless you are:

a) You are overflowing in equal ilvl gear where you can pick between parry items over dodge items. (unlikely, but possible)
b) You reforge from one to the other (you should be reforging mastery unless there already is mastery)

Then the difference should be within 5% of each other. And if your dodge is much higher than your parry you want to reforge to parry anyways to reduce your dodge DR.

This leaves gemming and enchants. Enchants should be limited, since (IIRC) there's only the dodge to bracers that's current (armsman is out in favour of Armor/stamina). Gemming shouldn't change your ratings by more than 3% even if you gemmed pure parry and ignored every socket bonus.

You will note I said parry slightly over dodge in my original post. I didn't say by how much. In my books, a few percentage points over is "slight".

So really, unless you are doing something stupid, it's not THAT difficult to optimize your dodge/parry ratio to a within a few percentages of each other, with parry being slightly higher. Are you going to prevent a tank death through HtL between 1% more parry vs 3 % more parry? I doubt it. What I would do, however, is use gems to optimize your avoidance ratings to the nearest integer dodge or parry, unless they fixed that (anyone?), while still maximizing EH (yes, this isn't a license to stop throwing in a few purple/green stam gems).

Loganisis
04-08-2011, 07:00 PM
DR also affects the portion of dodge gained from agility, so no, it is not only affecting rating. Though a tanking class which has parry should not be wearing gear with additional agility on it in the first place.

I thought I'd read that agility gives dodge rating and strength gives parry%? Or is that wrong? So the DR would still be on the rating given from agility - and while it isn't much - The +549 str/agi buff gives both - so for a warrior, it can almost always be assumed to be base agility + 549 since in most raids you have the +sta buff covered (is the priest buff still raid-scrollable?) with the spreading of buffs, I imagine there are comps that would not provide it, but it would be... an unsual one (the tank would have to be in a raid with no other warriors and no DKs, Hunters, Locks, or Priests - which is possible, but unlikely, even in a 10 man).

truculent
04-08-2011, 07:38 PM
Also, somthing that I think might not have been mentioned yet : the value if parry varies in relation to block/mastery, relative to sb uptime. the "hold the line math" thread is really a great read.

Naka
04-09-2011, 06:23 AM
I thought I'd read that agility gives dodge rating and strength gives parry%?

It's the other way around. Dodge from Agility does indeed affect DR, so you have to account for that when balancing your avoidance. That doesn't change the fact that Agility is a better defensive stat than Strength, though.

Doc309
04-09-2011, 10:01 AM
DR also affects the portion of dodge gained from agility, so no, it is not only affecting rating. Though a tanking class which has parry should not be wearing gear with additional agility on it in the first place.

isn't the charscale leg enchant the best for tanks? doesn't it have agi?

Quinafoi
04-09-2011, 05:24 PM
I thought I'd read that agility gives dodge rating and strength gives parry%? Or is that wrong? So the DR would still be on the rating given from agility - and while it isn't much - The +549 str/agi buff gives both - so for a warrior, it can almost always be assumed to be base agility + 549 since in most raids you have the +sta buff covered (is the priest buff still raid-scrollable?) with the spreading of buffs, I imagine there are comps that would not provide it, but it would be... an unsual one (the tank would have to be in a raid with no other warriors and no DKs, Hunters, Locks, or Priests - which is possible, but unlikely, even in a 10 man).

Strength converts to Parry Rating and the only variable in the Parry equation is Parry Rating.
Agility however does not convert into Dodge Rating, but instead converts directly into Dodge.

Agility and Dodge Rating are both variables in the Dodge portion of the equation. Parry only has one variable, Dodge has two.

A simple way to prove this... (this test is better preformed if naked because if your avoidance is too high, the buff may not be sufficient to provide a noticable, 0.01%, difference).

Get rid of all your buffs.
You see your total dodge rating.
Get a stats buff (Kings/Mark).
You will see your Dodge percentage increase, however you Dodge Rating will not. Where is this additional Dodge from? The Agility you gained, which is not converted to Dodge Rating.

Likewise you can repeat this test with Parry. You will notice that this buff actually increases the Parry Rating in the tooltip of Parry. Strength gets pre-converted to Parry Rating and only Parry Rating is used in calculating Parry percentage. Dodge on the other hand has two variables.

truculent
04-21-2011, 10:55 AM
Funny, I remember reading somewhere here that parry is actually ALOT better then dodge. I even reforged fully into parry, having 9.41% dodge and 16.14% parry. Together with my 53.52% block and raid buffs, I still sit on 103%~ total with shield block, but I've noticed the uptime on hold the line buff have doubled itself over a 13%~ dodge/14%~ parry.

Imo, since half of the attacks I recive I block, raising the chance of basicly half the attacks I get by 10% to be reduced by additional 30% is more important then 2-3% to fully resist an attack [which is the diffrence between parry stacking and balance].

The rule of a tumb I remember from that post was X dodge, 2X parry RATINGS. That is, I'm sitting on about 960~ dodge rating and 2200 parry.

Might anyone have information regarding the DR on parry? Id really like a better look at such information.

MellvarTank
04-21-2011, 10:57 AM
Parry is subject to the same DR as dodge. Has been since Cata launched.

Insahnity
04-21-2011, 03:28 PM
isn't the charscale leg enchant the best for tanks? doesn't it have agi?

It's the only enchant by virtue of the fact that the alternative, str+crt, provides very little mitigation, as str-> parry rating you get from the DPS patch doesn't do nearly enough as the boatload of stamina you get on the patch alone, the agility is just gravy. Also if you want to get silly about this, the extra crit to help proc SD from the DPS patch on bears is just not worth losing stam and agi.

Some may ask why didn't they put a stam/dodge patch? Ask the devs, but my bear loves it.