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Othomi
03-29-2011, 12:01 AM
Hello,

last evening I had to face the fact, that the top dds in my guild had to stop dmg dealing at times, because I was having trouble holding up threat against them.
We talked about my hit numbers - which are at the moment quite low (111 - 0,92%).
Now ... I did reforge towards mastery and avoidance most of the hit on my equip, because healers were not coping well with incoming dmg.
Now dds want me to raise my hit numbers, so they can keep doing dmg.

My thought was to swap my avoidance trinket for the mirror of broken images and to undo the reforgings on hit.

What do you think? Is there any other viable solution for this problem?

Thanks

Destruyen
03-29-2011, 12:02 AM
armory link and rotation you are doing would help....

Loganisis
03-29-2011, 12:36 AM
And regular or hardmode?

klausi
03-29-2011, 12:41 AM
You aren't talking about heroic instances, are you? If yes, just mark a focus mob and taunt it back - nobody should die from aggro over second or two.

Well let's imagine you're raiding.. that leaves us with several questions:
What's your class?
You're priotizing tps oriented abilites and use cooldowns offensive?
You're running with a tps oriented specc?
Which classes are pulling aggro or do all of them struggle with your threat?
Do you struggle with threat in general or is this a specific encounter problem?
MD/Tricks/thorns present and used on cooldown?
Are other raidmember helping reducing threat (read: hand of salvation/vanish/feign death/invis/...)?
Is your melee weapon on par with the tier? Wielding a 359/372 weapon really helps with the snap aggro, Vengeance almost always seal the deal later on.

Theotherone
03-29-2011, 06:27 AM
Tell your dps to take Ghostcrawler's advice and wait a global cooldown or two before they pew pew.

Also, reforging for avoidance? Personally, I wouldn't waste reforging on avoidance.

Othomi
03-29-2011, 07:34 AM
Well, I did not link the armory, because currently blizzards eu site is down for an indefinite time. The armory is not accessible via link (my armory link is posted in another thread I started in the HALP! section and it does not work).
I play a prot warrior. All usual prot talents are skilled, leaving out blood and thunder and the one that makes it possible to storm the mobs in prot stance (I hope you get what I mean - usually I play WoW in German so I am missing some of the terms in English ;) ). Then I invested 5 talent points in the fury tree so as to activate some self healing. This I need, because healing is a bit weak atm. With better gear this will change, but its how things are atm. In the Weapons tree I skilled the usual talents without reaching deep wounds, which is a bit sad, but can't be helped.

I did reforge on avoidance what I needed to get parry 1.5 % higher than ... oh I see that I did write something wrong in my hurry this morning. I meant that I reforged stats that have to do with avoidance of damage. I had to reforge avoidance to parry in some cases. And as I already described - all my hit rating is reforged to mastery (also expertise).

The dds having trouble are a rogue and a ret paladin. Both lead the dps list in our raid. The rogue even told me that it was difficcult for him to keep low on threat even when using his ability to direct the boss to me (misdirection?).

I am really at a loss, because redoing the reforging on hit will lower my mastery probably at tick to low. My gear is not bad, but also not so good as to allow for this under the current raid conditions. My weapon is currently 359, the random drop sword from bastion of twilight.

Also I am wearing 359 shoulders, gun, shield (random drops) || bracers, boots, (reputation) ||T11 breast, trinket (alchemist's stone).
The trinket I was writing about swapping would be Throngus' Finger.

My rotation - if one can call it like that - would be starting with taunt/heroic throw then all the usual things like block, mirror spell (is ist called like this?) shield bash on cooldown, that ability that puts sunder armor on the mob in between to get shield bash for free, revenge when its active, and in between demoralizing shout and that stun ability (the one with a hammer as an icon).
I am sorry for my lack of terms, but reading more in English will fix this soon.

I hope this clarifys things a bit.... and I hope that blizzard allows access to the european armory again.

Edit: This is regular raiding - not heroic.

Loganisis
03-29-2011, 10:43 AM
http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/der-rat-von-dalaran/othomi/advanced

The rogue's ability is Tricks of the Trade, but if I'm not mistaken rogues have a threat dump too in evasion? So he can actively reduce his threat.

The Ret pally needs to hold of on his procs right away and hand of salvation himself on CD to help keep his threat down.

****

Your rotation:

Opening: Heroic Throw -> Charge + Shield Block -> Shield Slam -> Concussive Blow -> Shockwave. That will get your three biggest threat abilities on the boss the fastest. Since you don't have B+T, after that, it's a priority system, which I think the following is correct:

Shield Slam > Revenge > Rend (ONLY if Rend has fallen off) > Devastate. And don't forget to work in Shockwaves and Concussive Blows when they come off CD.

And then, heroic strike as rage allows. Which should be almost the entire time.

****

I would STRONGLY suggest removing the points in blood craze (you're looking at a 10% chance of something like 900hps for 5 seconds, it's very minimal) and putting them in Deep Wounds. Deep Wounds is so much better than any DPS trinket you can find. It's actually the best 'optional' talent for threat. If you have threat issues, deep wounds should be taken before you do something else.

****

I think the only German I know is how to very poorly say I don't speak German, so I can't read your items XD

That being said:

Gems:
Yellow/Prismatic: 40 Mastery
Blue: 20 Mastery/30 Stamina
Red: 20 Parry/20 Mastery

If there isn't a tanking socket bonus (such as the bonus is hit or expertise) then +40 mastery

****


In regular modes you shouldn't need to have hit or expertise to maintain threat. However, if you do end up going that route, remember Exp > Hit for threat.

ironsides
03-30-2011, 03:42 PM
Is rend really better threat than devestate without B+T? Am I really that bad? I am rolling with B+T though because so many bosses require aoe tps/kiting mobs. But still I wasn't aware it was actually more threat.

Loganisis
03-30-2011, 03:57 PM
It's funky. Rend is more TPS per GCD is applied when it's off the target. Even with B+T it's max TPS to replace Dev with Rend the next time you have the choice after Rend has fallen off.

It's not more TPS initially, it takes all the ticks to be more valuable, which is why you'll see a lot of posts on don't TC to refresh B+T unless Rend has less than 3 seconds left.

***

It's a maximium TPS type thing. I personally run with B+T too, even for single-target, because I like rolling 2 utilities into one (attack speed debuff and rend refresh). It's really the type of thing that unless you're hitting enrange timers consistently, it's really not going to make/break it.

Kemanorel
04-01-2011, 09:18 AM
As a player who has a high-threat DPS main, and variety of tanking, healing and other DPS alts at various levels, a word to your DPS; Single target dps on the tank's primary threat lead (most often, your target) rather than area of effect helps. Threat reduction abilities on cooldown help (Hand of Salvation for the paladin, Vanish for the rogue, most raiding rogues only use Feint to trigger the glyph. Speaking of glyphs, an unglyphed Salvation as late as possible has a greater overall benefit, but glyphed Salvation is a quick-response threat dump, however like a priest's Fade the threat returns) and of course, since pulling off the tank is more unforgivable than pet-pulling in a raid, in the words of Retribution Paladin Lore of <Months Behind> @ US-Eredar "Sometimes I just don't push my buttons"

From experience, the DPS loss during an aggro-recovery by the tank is often much greater than almost any unused proc or wasted globals by the DPS themselves. Often due to messy complications like (translation by google translate) "Boss aß mein Gesicht"* debuff on DPS in question.

*:roughly, "Boss ate my face"

Tengenstein
04-01-2011, 08:06 PM
Ideally, you HS should be making up around 20% of your damage. I would not recommend using Spell reflect on CD, be smart about it learn what you can deflect/reflect with it and only use it against those boss abilites, if it isn't doing anything you just shoved 10 rage down the toilet. for the most part i agree totally with Loganisis. However my cruising rotation sis slightly different, I have spreadsheeted this so yours my be slightly different and their is some variation based on how much vengeance you have, if you have the talents WA, Imp Revenge, DW.

For single target pulls your roatation is based on a 4 GCD pattern that restarts everytime you get a Sword and board proc (ie if you can shield slam, you should shield slam). so it should look a little like this;

1. Shield slam
2. Revenge (if unavailable, Devastate)
3. Revenge (if unavailable, Devastate)
4. Other abilities

Your other abilities are in approximate descending threat value




Concussion Blow
Shockwave with 3 stacks of Thunderstruck
Thunderclap refreshing a Rend with less than 3 seconds left (if somone is putting up the 30% bleed damage debuff for you
Shockwave with 1 or 2 stacks of Thunderstruck
Thunderclap refreshing a Rend with less than 6 seconds left (if somone is putting up the 30% bleed damage debuff for you
Thunderclap refreshing a Rend with less than 3 seconds left (without the 30% bleed damage debuff for you
Heroic Throw
Shockwave
Rend (with +30%bleed damge fresh application, not clipped)
Thunderclap refreshing a Rend with less than 6 seconds left (without the 30% bleed damage debuff)
Thunderclap refreshing a Rend with less than 9 seconds left (with the 30% bleed damage debuff for you)
Revenge
Thunderclap refreshing a Rend with less than 9 seconds left (without the 30% bleed damage debuff for you)
Devastate
Rend (without +30%bleed damge fresh application, not clipped)
Victory Rush
ThunderClap (this debuff should have as high uptime as possible)
Demoshout (this Debuff should have as high uptime as possible)

At the same time you should be using Spell reflect, Shield Bash, Berserker Rage, and Inner Rage as appropriate and using Heroic Strike as often as you can withough stoppong you using the above 4GCD cycle through lack of rage.

@ Loganisis, even with Max vengenace (20k AP total) i don't find Rend outdoes Dev for TPS without the 30% bleed damage buff, with it it rocketh my socketh, but without an Arms Warrior, Subtetly Rogue, Bear or Kitteh it doesn't pack a punch.

Loganisis
04-02-2011, 12:18 PM
Good point. Rend > Dev only when the 30% bleed debuff is applied.

I think, however that the relative values are based builds? Based on Wartotem's spreadsheet, based on my build, with only Devestate's buff (assuming worst raid comp - and I don't use Thunderstruck) at

0% vengence: SS W/HR > Con Blow > SS > Rev > HT > Shockwave > Dev > HS > rend
50% vengence: SS w/HR > Con Blow > SS > HT > Shockwave > HS > Rev > Dev > Rend
100% vengence: SS w/HR > Con Blow > SS > HT > Shockwave > HS > Rev > VR > Dev > rend

Add in the Bleed, Physical damage taken and physical damage done party buffs:

0% Vengence: SS w/ HR > Con Blow > SS > Rend > Rev > HT > Dev > SW > HS
50% Vengence: SS w/HR > Con Blow > SS > HT > SW > HS > Rev > Rend > Dev
100% Vengence: SS w/HR > Con Blow > SS > HT > SW > HS > Rev > Rend > Dev

***

So it's going to be party/build dependent, but it looks like Concussion Blow should always be valued above everything but a HR/SS, and with some vengence SW and HT should be prioritised over revenge and once a bleed debuff is applied to the target Rend > Dev.

For simplicities sake, if you want to say SS resets then Con Blow would always be the second option, if available, to put it down with the other abilities is too low.

Tengenstein
04-02-2011, 05:36 PM
it really is why i love my warrior so much, the fact that our rotation is so dependant on so many conditionals makes for a truely interesting rotation