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bigshootr8
03-28-2011, 01:54 AM
So, my guild has been working on Heroic Mode Chimaeron and we've been encountered some pretty consistent inconsistencies and I'm curious to hear what we can do to fix those.

A video of one of attempts with introduction commentary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boCOEyhJB60&feature=youtube_gdata

1. There is some disgruntled opinions on the who we should be setting up for the fight I think the understanding is that Paladins are the king healers and that without one on this fight it makes killing the boss a lot more insurmountable.
2. Tank Deaths: Tanks are dieing primarily during the feud phase the only thing I can really draw it to is the fact that the heals need a HP CD to compensate for the damage. The reason I think this is because when you get to a feud it normally happens after a massacre so healing is pretty crucial you have people stacking up you have a healer that is racing to keep the tank whose standing outside tanking and with something like the warriors last stand it helps combat that. I currently use just about every CD I have I feel that I need to to stay alive I start with last stand for the HP and then I move into shield wall with a mix of shield block/the dodge trinket which comes off of double-dragon.
3. RNG: we run across some RNG some of it comes from random players dieing for whatever reason it more often then not happens to the break tank which happens to be a DK and he does a pretty good job at what hes doing. Also, random players in the raid dieing for w.e reason. I'm unsure if its due to crucial crunching healing between massacre and cosmic smiles or what.
4. I also have linked a video to this thread kind of outlining our lineup and what we do and my questions. This is a video of one of our more progressed attempts. The lineup we used tonight was.

1 Resto Shaman
1 Resto Druid
1 Disc Priest
1 Enchance Shaman
1 Shadow Preist
1 Boomkin
1 Fire Mage
1 Prot warrior
1 DK
1 Feral Druid

swelt
03-28-2011, 02:43 AM
There are good threads on this in the Tier 11 raid strategy section, like this one: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?74663-Chimearon-25-heroic (although that one's about 25 man, I'm not clear whether you are talking about 10 or 25 from the thread title). Keeping the tanks alive through feud is probably THE major change that heroic mode brings, so you'll need detailed plans for handling it (which is described well in the linked thread). There is no RNG here, there are just lots of bad things happening that you need plans and swift reaction times to deal with.

And just to be clear: feud ALWAYS comes right after a massacre, never the first massacre but after that it can come after any massacre. The fact that it doesn't come at a predictable interval might be something you call RNG, but it's a part of the encounter and something you need a plan for.

bigshootr8
03-28-2011, 03:00 AM
I think what I consider RNG on the encounter is the fact that you do in fact on most occasions end up using 3 tanks to combat double feuds where you get one and that after a short period of time you get another. The problem with the thread that you posted was it doesn't feel like me just using Shield Wall with my 4 set and the valiona trinket would be enough. I feel that I have to put out a combo of last stand and shield wall in there due to the healers not having enough time to get me up to a sustainable health pool. What I mean by this feud happens and I'm the double attack tank SW goes up few seconds later if I don't use last stand flop almost without hesitation and I having shield block waiting for the double attack during the feud. I don't know if this is a healer issue or what it all is. Also, Its quite easy to point to a strategy page where what people are doing but what I'm asking is more specifically how do you combat issues that I'm running into. That being said thanks for the redirection to the other page it just didn't serve as much help other then my fear that I'm using to many cooldowns and my healers are unable to heal me enough.

Dogmeat
03-28-2011, 04:33 AM
Taken this from our own Tank-forum as we were having quite many issues with tank-deaths until we analyzed the logs thoroughly... Generally a Feud-phase will look something like this...

[00:00] Massacre - tank at 1hp
[00:04] Normal melee hit - around 175k (unmitigated)
[00:09] Normal melee hit - 175k again (unmitigated)
[00.09] Break (1) on tank
[00:14] Double attack - two attacks of each ~150k
[00:19] Normal melee hit
[00:19] Break (2) on tank
[00:20] Massacre

As you can see you should be able to go through all the bad stuff with SW rolling, provided 4-set bonus and you don't pop it to early ... The crucial point for us was to make sure that healers get us to full health before the first melee hit (so 4-5sec to do this after Massacre)... From there on you should be safe, and ofc save Shield Block for the Double-Attack here as well:)

As for our tactic, we use 2 regular tanks and 1 DPS tank for soaking break outside the Feud-phases... Tank1 soaks Double-attack before fist Feud-phase (with short CD like Shield-Block or Bakrskin). Remember he don't cast actually cast Double-attack while doing Massacre (even if he gets the debuff)... But taunt off the DPS-tank anyway incase he goes into Feud... Tank1 then stays on him during first Feud-phase using CD's etc as described above and then when the system goes back online the DPS-tank taunts back again... Then Tank2 soaks Double-attacks and do next Feud phase...

What i do is to save my Last Stand for an emergency where we get 3 Feud-phases so fast that my SW isnt off CD and then simply tank the feud-phase with LS and an external CD (PS, GS etc)... So always try and save those for this:) best of luck with it and don't hesitate to PM me if you have further questions...

(note these are 25man heroic numbers)

swelt
03-28-2011, 05:50 AM
Part of the reason for pointing you across to the other forum is that general raid strategy advice is best kept somewhere that other people will easily find it again. "Tanks die in feud" is a fundamental component of chimeron hc, we all need to face it. If you want very specific advice, I suggest you need to post World of Logs and Armory links.

bigshootr8
03-28-2011, 10:55 AM
I really liked what the previous commenter had posted it was helpful gave me a better idea of what was going on CD management and what the healers should expect. I'm unsure what portion of the logs you would like but here is a link to a parse of one of our better attempts. This is the death log for the fight http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bdh0qozqiyv7nezm/deaths/?s=7369&e=7653.
(http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bdh0qozqiyv7nezm/?s=7369&e=7653)

Dogmeat
03-28-2011, 11:56 PM
By looking at the rest of the wipes in your logs almost all your deaths seem to be caused by Caustic Slime... And even before Feud-phase as I see it...? Are people spread properly (I see multiple hits of slime) and healing sorted accordingly... Be very strict with setting up who's healing who, who can self-heal after Massacre etc... If healers cant get everyone up over 10k before and after a Massacre something is clearly not right... If feud-phase healing is a problem make sure everyone who can is healing themselves (hybrids etc), use bandages and make a rotation on stuff like healing rain, PW:barrier, Tranquility etc so you have at least one each phase...

klausi
03-29-2011, 01:08 AM
What i do is to save my Last Stand for an emergency where we get 3 Feud-phases so fast that my SW isnt off CD and then simply tank the feud-phase with LS and an external CD (PS, GS etc)... So always try and save those for this:)
You can use Last Stand for the first and the fifth feud phase and actually don't have to worry about back to back feuds, haven't seen any A-B-A feud happening in less then 120s.

Tank dieing during feud is a problem at least on 10 man, you can't rotate LoH (unless you run really paladin heavy haha!) so have all three healer cast a huge heal during the massacre cast on the assigned tank, landing after the massacre cast is finished. This guarentess enough hitpoints for the first hit and the regular tank healer shouldn't have a problem keeping him up afterwards when all cooldowns are used properly. DK & Druid can help with their +%healing abilites/deathstrike, paladin can heal themselves/ardent defender and warriors should pop last stand and if that's not ready a healthstone and/or an armor potion.

bigshootr8
04-04-2011, 01:41 AM
managed to kill him I made a fraps video for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZwddvNiCIk&feature=player_embedded

klausi
04-04-2011, 05:34 AM
Several things:
- if you start offtanking your feral could add a lot of dps
- you didn't shatter once, did you?
- you could use enraged regen to help healers during feud
- berserker rage is actually quite nice for additional rage ;)
- use your shieldblock for double attacks, you missed it at the first DA
- instead of taunting on every DA just taunt on the ones that will actually hit someone, there's plenty of time when you enter a feud phase
- at 4:10 your maintank actually dodged the DA, you taunted to late
- what the heck you're doing during Mortality? You've both last stand and shieldwall ready and turn your back towards Chimaeron?
- a healthstone won't do anything for for you during Mortality (-99% healing reduction)
- i can't believe you actually managed to down him without even bothering healing everyone up after a massacre and instead just zerg him, looks like Hexagona did an awesome job with shielding right there. But he shouldn't use Divine Hymn during Mortality, either shield or spam dps (smite, holy fire, swp) into Chimaeron

bigshootr8
04-04-2011, 11:42 AM
if you start offtanking your feral could add a lot of dps A: we were timing it so that he would be able to battle res the main tank which was a DPS.
you didn't shatter once, did you? I believe I did I was trying to get 2 shatters in if I could.
you could use enraged regen to help healers during feud A: I could have but I saved anything beyond a 2 minute cooldown for emergency's
berserker rage is actually quite nice for additional rage A: was doing fine on rage
use your shieldblock for double attacks, you missed it at the first DA A: I was doing fine with that sometimes it would be up during double attack sometimes it wasn't but I had shield wall up for most of feud again a non issue
instead of taunting on every DA just taunt on the ones that will actually hit someone, there's plenty of time when you enter a feud phase A: you need to taunt for every double attack come on man do you know anything about this encounter?
at 4:10 your maintank actually dodged the DA, you taunted to late A: yea I know I dodge a bullet.
what the heck you're doing during Mortality? You've both last stand and shieldwall ready and turn your back towards Chimaeron? A: shield wall and last stand are not exclusive to what direction your facing a boss I was trying to get away as fast as possible It didn't matter how much avoidance I had I wasn't going to live long and the longer I could prolong that the better. Hence running+intervene+herioc leap and then dead
i can't believe you actually managed to down him without even bothering healing everyone up after a massacre and instead just zerg him, looks like Hexagona did an awesome job with shielding right there. But he shouldn't use Divine Hymn during Mortality, either shield or spam dps (smite, holy fire, swp) into Chimaeron A: not every strat has people stacking up and healing through the damage we kited him like normal and then let chim do his thing

A kill is a kill and I think we did a pretty decent job stop complaining.

Ellóren
04-05-2011, 05:39 AM
Congrats on the kill, I do love a happy ending! :)