PDA

View Full Version : PST - Episode 22



Lore
03-26-2011, 03:10 PM
ui3LvOf-YN4

This week:

Have flying mounts made the game world feel insignificant?
How can I help my raiders learn from each others' mistakes?
How important are healing addons/mouseover macros?
Is the weekly valor point cap necessary?
and more!

Toradoshi
03-26-2011, 04:20 PM
Lore, your show is awesome, and I never have any complaints so don't take this as one. But, @ 18:50, females do not have y-chromosomes, men do!

P.S. DON'T CUT ME BRO

Totéms
03-26-2011, 05:22 PM
Lore,

You showed your age in this video, the comment, "Pedestal..... Look Up." Is from Steve Martin's 1978 comedy album "Wild and Crazy Guy". Very Nice.

Therec
03-26-2011, 06:26 PM
Love the show Lore. Just keep the butterfly knife away from your headset wire, I ruined a pair that way.

I look forward to the Weekly Marmot about raider age. The guild I was in used to not care about age, until we had one of our healers have to leave at different times every night b/c his mom would make him get off the computer.

I also can't understand why someone would join a guild to raid with then not show up to the raid times, seems pretty fundamental when you apply that you're agreeing to be on at the specified raid times.

Hollow
03-26-2011, 07:35 PM
lol nice butterfly knife?? does this mean you have aspiration's to be a rogue or have a rogue one day?

arantes
03-27-2011, 12:21 AM
It's interesting that the awkward generalization you identified during your response to the females playing wow question was the "girls are healers" generalization. Yeah generalizations are bad and it's cool you caught yourself doing that but... wow... all the other stuff you said was amazingly poorly thought out.

Essentially your whole response was "you need to do something to accommodate these idiots" when it should have been "these idiots need to get over themselves and your guild leaders need to remind them that all players should be treated the same".

Sure there are "attention-whores" but I'm not sure how that's relevant to the particular question. The right way to deal with women in gaming is the same as how you deal with women at work or anywhere else. Treat them like people. Don't make excuses for poor behavior by others just because they're in the majority and make an effort to encourage the right behavior.

If she really is in the stereotypically bad situation you sort of seemed to address, chances are she's not going to change the men's (boy's?) behavior no matter how neutral her actions are. I know it's a tough subject to address with such a male-dominated sub-culture, but don't lower your standards for this sub-culture, try to increase this sub-culture's standards.

mojusk
03-27-2011, 01:08 AM
a guilmaster NINJA!.. thats.. inappropriate

Lore
03-27-2011, 01:25 AM
Essentially your whole response was "you need to do something to accommodate these idiots" when it should have been "these idiots need to get over themselves and your guild leaders need to remind them that all players should be treated the same".

I don't give advice based on how the world should work. I give advice based on how it does. The question was "How can I get them to accept me", and the only way to do that is to, as you put it, "accommodate these idiots" (who, from her description, seem to be reacting in a perfectly normal manner).

The person was not asking what is wrong with the members of her guild or what my thoughts were on the unfair position that female raiders regularly find themselves in. She was asking what she could do to get her friends to get over her femininity and get back to how things were before they knew about it. Thus, the advice I gave was meant to achieve that end.

In addition, I think you'll find that the process I described is the best way to "increase this sub-culture's standards." The reason men respond the way they do on the internet (the majority of them, anyway) is out of discomfort and insecurity around women. Make them forget about you as a girl and remember you as a person, and you'll not only get yourself in a better position, but also remove that insecurity for the future.

If you just give speeches about how they're being unfair and how they shouldn't be sexist etc, then you're just adding to that discomfort and insecurity which means that even if they do begin treating you with respect, they'll just think of you as "that person I have to be careful around or I'll get yelled at" and not "my friend Julie".

I have a feeling I'll need to revisit this topic in a future Marmot

cutelowbie
03-27-2011, 02:47 AM
Lore I loved that you answered the girl gamer question, and would absolutely love to see a weekly Marmot on it.
I've been a female raider for a long time and find the whole "girl gamer" topic interesting especially being well established with the group i play with its been a long time since i've encountered problems and am interested to know if its changed at all.

Malaegis
03-27-2011, 04:13 AM
Essentially your whole response was "you need to do something to accommodate these idiots" when it should have been "these idiots need to get over themselves and your guild leaders need to remind them that all players should be treated the same".


What I find most helpful is to try to view the situation in reverse. If a guy joined an all female group, the group dynamic would change when the guy was around. It's a simple state of human existence that men and women both behave differently when in mixed and non-mixed company. As a corollary, any time one member of a group is different, be that gender, race, nationality, etc. the group will act differently when that person is around. (The difference could be to act in a more accepting way.. but the group dynamic will change.)

I thought that Lore's response was very helpful here. If you are attempting to join a group where you are an outsider, for whatever reason, it is always helpful to make the effort to let the group act as naturally as possible. If someone makes a joke or comment that is offensive, of course you speak up. If it's possible to let it go, do that. Over time, the group will adjust, and everyone in it will be comfortable. The outsider won't be "the girl", or "the european guy" or whatever. Over time, they just become another member of the team.

On a sort of unrelated note.. the guild I'm in (10 man) has a couple female players.. neither are healers, but one does enforce our no pants raiding policy. So.. I'm not sure if that's a new stereotype, but I got a kick out of Lore's comments about the no pants raiding.

Katzazi
03-27-2011, 04:30 AM
Girl question:
There is more than only the male environment. I'm one of our MTs and I'm female. I'm also quit comfortable acting in a male domineered environment since I'm studying Computer Science and working with other CS students. Often I'm the only female there. And I'm having some other male dominated hobbies but also some female dominated (like dancing). I know how to behave to not draw the attention to my sex as far as when we got a very female looking and behaving bachelor to our group everybody went like "Uh, we have to behave now, and be nice and all!" until someone pointed out that I had been there all the time. But well they just knew me and knew that they did not have to adapt their behavior because of me and that I'm quite capable to deal with their male-behavior. (It's not that I'm bad looking. I don't have a problem to attract the attention of males when I aim for it either, but I'm not doing that when I want to be treated as an equal in a male domineered environment.)

Now to WoW. Sure there are those who hush up, when they first hear me speak in ts when doing some PUGs. Some of them get actually nervous when they learn that the female voice is that of the female troll warrior that was just marked as MT. Sometimes I hear comments like "I never have raided 'under' a female MT" like that they never have worked for a female boss. I actually had to laugh when Lore made the healing comment. Because I also know some female healers (been there myself) and people have nearly no problem to adapt to that. Some of them even RL and people don't act as funny when you do that on a healer. But a female beeing MT (and mybe RL) actually gets to them. Don't know why. Probably you have some internal concepts of what "roles" could or should be played by females and which not. It's probably healer and maybe mage but not rogue or warrior. While I know good female players of every class.

Anyway beside of those box thinking even Lore expressed, there is more going on.

It's that people can hide behind the avatar. There are enough male players who use that to do things that would embarrass many other male players if they knew. But we females stumble over them often enough. Stuff you get not confronted with in real life situations. Nobody would dare to do them there. Take any random raid. There will be at least one male eventually start to wisper about what undergarments the females wear right now, or if they are wearing anything at all. You can imagine other questions going much further, but those are quite common starting lines. They are doing it while raiding or after the raids. I've learned to treat it like spam mails (or "spam males"). It would be hurt more to report them or to stop raiding to look for a replacement or whatever.

Well and then there is another kind of interaction nearly only happening to female players. It's more kind, but at least as hard to deal with on an emotional level than the former one. When they accept you and learn that they can trust you, some of them start to unload their problems. In most cases you don't know what is going on, before you can tell them that you don't want to hear that stuff. until it's so late, that it would be extremely rude to say stuff like that. I had to deal with drug abuse of close relative, recent father death (twice), sisters being on a suicide trip, girl/boyfriends with clinical depressions, someone who just encountered being gay and who did not know what to do, abusing parents and probably a hundred times "how to find the girl for me" (quick answer: consider a hobby that is less male dominated as WoW). I know many other female players who were addressed with stuff like that, too. But I know no male player.


Age question:
There is something else: If you only take adults, you don't have to think twice about it, if anybody speaks about some stuff that comes with the Y-chromosome or if people start to post those barely dressed persons on the forum or stuff like that. At least in some countries there are quite harsh laws against sharing stuff like that with non-adults. So it just can be a safety issue not related with the person applying at all (or with any encounter with any other under-aged person).

Healing-UI:
I don't see the issue as harsh as Lore does. For nearly all heals you know how should get it "early enough" to not make it a difference, if you click the heal right on the person, or if you select the person and push a button to start the heal. Every healer selects the person for the next heal during the GCD and moves the mouse there to initiate the next heal. The GCD is long enough that it does not matter if you have to click that person or not, you have time to spam whatever button your next heal lies on multiple times to get the heal off, anyway. There are only few emergencies I can think about where that would not be the case. But in most cases you only need a few heals (and stuff like decurses) bound to work with mouse-over to be able to deal with this exceptions.

I don't know the addon the person was asking about. But most of the stuff you need to be able to react quickly, can be done even with a good configured standard ui. So it's much more important to know how to configure your UI and how to work with it, than to switch over to another addon.

Btw: I've found people using healbot and other comparable addons having a lot harder time to use mouse-movement/turing than people who are at least adapted with other kinds of healing. In most cases for Cata it's much more important to react with movement fast, than to get a heal off a fraction of second earlier. All relevant debuffs take at least 2s to kick and nobody dies because of one heal missing (maybe with the exception of Chimaeron, but that's again not about the fraction of seconds between one or two clicks(.

avh
03-27-2011, 04:47 AM
ElvUI (http://www.tukui.org/forums/topic.php?id=10804) is modification of TukUI (http://www.tukui.org/) and it is very useful also for healers without any additional addons. If you want to select targets before casting a heal, I don't see any more problems with it than using mouseover macros. If you want to click heal with ElvUI, just use Clique.

Devistius
03-27-2011, 04:52 AM
love the butterfly knife lol your show is awesome :)

Dagaz
03-27-2011, 06:09 AM
I know it's a tough subject to address with such a male-dominated sub-culture, but don't lower your standards for this sub-culture, try to increase this sub-culture's standards.

Ya....see we men as a sub-culture are really about as low as you get, and women have been failing for thousands of years to raise a guys standards.

P.S. on second thought, all we really do is talk about our "sensitive" organs and use comebacks like "your mom" or "thats what she said." with the occasional 10 second fart for good messure

P.P.S. I do feel for u ladies though, because when the situation is reversed and im the only male surrounded by ladies, i look for the first exit because i am "shocked" at how much more blunt women are then men haha

Quinafoi
03-27-2011, 11:44 AM
Healing-UI:
I don't see the issue as harsh as Lore does. For nearly all heals you know how should get it "early enough" to not make it a difference, if you click the heal right on the person, or if you select the person and push a button to start the heal. Every healer selects the person for the next heal during the GCD and moves the mouse there to initiate the next heal. The GCD is long enough that it does not matter if you have to click that person or not, you have time to spam whatever button your next heal lies on multiple times to get the heal off, anyway. There are only few emergencies I can think about where that would not be the case. But in most cases you only need a few heals (and stuff like decurses) bound to work with mouse-over to be able to deal with this exceptions.

I don't know the addon the person was asking about. But most of the stuff you need to be able to react quickly, can be done even with a good configured standard ui. So it's much more important to know how to configure your UI and how to work with it, than to switch over to another addon.

Btw: I've found people using healbot and other comparable addons having a lot harder time to use mouse-movement/turing than people who are at least adapted with other kinds of healing. In most cases for Cata it's much more important to react with movement fast, than to get a heal off a fraction of second earlier. All relevant debuffs take at least 2s to kick and nobody dies because of one heal missing (maybe with the exception of Chimaeron, but that's again not about the fraction of seconds between one or two clicks(.

First off to avoid any potential confusion, click casting and mouseover casting are the same thing. In both contexts, what your mouse is pointing at, your mouseover, is resolved to be the target of the action. The only difference is what you bind that action to. A mouse button or a keyboard button, they are both still a button which was bound to a mouseover action.

You will always have better performance on the human parts of the process if you are executing a subset of the steps involved. Simply put it always takes more time for you to Point, Press Key to Select Target, and Press Keybind than it takes to simply Point and Press Keybind. By eliminating one part of the process you will always perform the task faster.

However, does this actually improve player performance will actually depend on the individual at hand. Why? Because there are system limitations of casting mechanics to consider as well. In this particular case the system limitation we are concerned with is the spell queuing window. How long before your prior cast, or global cooldown, completes before the server will actually accept a request from the user for their next spell to begin immediately after. This system limitation serves as an upper bound on performance.

It is a good idea to optimize the human portion of your process because it will always result in you doing your tasks more efficiently. However since there is a system limitation on when the server first accepts your request for your next action to be executed, your actual game performance may not increase despite optimizing your process. This is because you were already performing at the upper bound of the system constraints even though your methodology was sub-optimal.

Lets do the simply case, the Global Cooldown. The global cooldown has a minimum of one second. The default queuing window for the game is half a second. This means you have half a second after your cast in order to begin sending your request to the server for your next cast. If you can Point, Press Key to Select Target, and Press Keybind of your next action in less time than this half second window, then you are already performing at the point where it is not the human portion of your process limiting you but rather the system limitations of the casting system. Simply doing your human actions in less time will not improve performance if the server simply won't accept your request for your next cast yet.

The majority of people will benefit from switching to an optimized approach because your "average" player is generally limited by the person playing them more than the game mechanic constraints. This is why in the vast majority of cases people will experience some increase in performance when switching to a mouseover style. It is because the human portion of their process wasn't fast enough to perform at the level the system allows. However, always keep in mind when comparing processes the limitations of the system. No matter how efficient the process is, there is an upper bound where once reached it is impossible to improve performance. If you are already performing at this system limitation using a sub-optimal method, then changing your method won't result in any improvement. However since most people are not performing at this level they will often notice some improvement by using a more optimized method.

That said, using mouseover style will always make your process better (more efficient). However, it may or may not have an impact on actual performance depending how close you were to reaching the limitations of the game mechanics themselves.

NewfieDave
03-27-2011, 11:45 AM
TLDR:

Between click-casting and keybinds, go with whichever feels most natural to you. Click-casting will probably make you a better healer if you're currently struggling, but both options can work at a high level of play.

Long Version:

If your current situation is that you click on your target, then click on your heal button (WITH YOUR MOUSE), then you definitely need to rethink your setup. Click-casting might be the best option for you, but I would also like you to consider a keybinds setup.

When setting up your UI, ask yourself three questions:

#1 - Can I see all the relevant information at a glance so I can make quick decisions?

Grid is my personal solution to #1, but many addons will do the trick. Whichever RaidFrames solution you go with, you need to be able to look at it and know in a split second the health of all raid members, who has aggro, debuffs you are able to dispel, incoming heals, and HoTs/Shields depending on your class. For example, my Disc Priest shows PW:S and Weakened Soul on Grid, and I enable Renew when I'm Holy. You do not want to be looking all over the screen to get this information.

I cannot stress enough how important this is! Shaving milliseconds from your response time will not help you if you're making the wrong response. Furthermore, having a clear answer to "what is going on in the fight right now?" will allow you to plan ahead for incoming damage. Being able to anticipate damage will improve your healing in ways addons never will.

#2 - Is all the irrelevant information hidden so I can see what's going on around my character instead of a wall of text and icons?

I don't need to see the Rogue just got another combo point, or the threat levels of everybody in the raid, or that the entire raid is covered in poison that my Priest can't dispel. Unless you are in a leadership position where you need to have access to more information so you can call out stuff on vent, you want to whittle away all the "use-impaired" information from your UI.

There's a train of thought people go through that says, "Well, if I enable poisons on Grid then my Priest will know who has a poison so I can know to heal through it! I'm gonna do that!" You can also just notice they are taking damage and heal it, OR pay attention to your surroundings and notice that the boss just cast his super-effective poison ability, so it's time to heal through it. Less is more when it comes to a healing UI. Going back to question #1, too much information simply makes it more difficult to get a meaningful picture of the situation at a glance.

#3 - Can I interact with the elements of my UI efficiently so my heals land as quickly as possible?

This is where you have to make the decision between click-casting and keybinds. Lore pointed out some strong benefits to click-casting, but there are also disadvantages. In many situations, you will only be healing a single target for a certain period of time. This is true for all healing roles, but is especially true for tank healers. Click-casting requires your mouse to be hovering over your target at the instant you need to cast, while keybinds let you use the mouse freely to turn/adjust your camera while casting.

Yes, it is easier to click once to cast Renew on somebody than to click once to target, then press a keybind to cast Renew. Easier, but not necessarily more responsive. This is where you need to judge how coordinated your hands are. I play guitar somewhat profficiently and I'm used to using both of my hands in a coordinated fashion. The amount of time I lose in between targeting with a mouse-click and pressing my keybind is quite short. The global cooldown is capped at 1 second, allowing me plenty of time to change targets if necessary before the next keybind needs to be pressed.

That is the limiting factor to how much HPS you're going to push out: can you get into a rhythm where spells are being cast as quickly as possible when the global cooldown finishes. Choosing keybinds over click-casting just means you have to include targeting as part of that rhythm. Much more important than click-casting vs keybinds is having an addon like Quartz that takes the latency out of your cast bar.

Quinafoi
03-27-2011, 12:02 PM
Between click-casting and keybinds

Click casting is an action keybound to a mouse button rather than a keyboard button. Click casting is a keybind. This is a very common misconception that these are different when in fact they are not. It's really just a subset of keybinds used to define those actions bound to mouse buttons.

NewfieDave
03-27-2011, 12:34 PM
Click casting is an action keybound to a mouse button rather than a keyboard button. Click casting is a keybind. This is a very common misconception that these are different when in fact they are not. It's really just a subset of keybinds used to define those actions bound to mouse buttons.
Yes, you are correct from a technical standpoint. I was using the term click-casting to refer to casting spells with your mouse, and keybinds to refer to casting spells with hotkeys on the keyboard. Sorry if there was confusion.

Therec
03-27-2011, 12:45 PM
The right way to deal with women in gaming is the same as how you deal with women at work or anywhere else. Treat them like people. Don't make excuses for poor behavior by others just because they're in the majority and make an effort to encourage the right behavior.


If your talking about making derogatory comments to the girl specifically, I can understand that as bad behavior. However, the women who get "offended" because men are swearing, making dirty jokes, talking about their exploits ato each other are the ones we hate to be around. If i can't be myself around my friends b/c there's a woman in the group that might get offended, then I'd rather kick the woman out and be myself instead of having to check to see if she's on every single time I type something/say something. The same thing applies to minors in the guild.

On our guild application, one of our questions is "Do you have a problem with bad language or dirty/offensive humor over guild chat or ventrilo?" This is to make sure that we can still be ourselves when someone joins, regardless of gender.

arantes
03-27-2011, 02:00 PM
If your talking about making derogatory comments to the girl specifically, I can understand that as bad behavior. However, the women who get "offended" because men are swearing, making dirty jokes, talking about their exploits ato each other are the ones we hate to be around. If i can't be myself around my friends b/c there's a woman in the group that might get offended, then I'd rather kick the woman out and be myself instead of having to check to see if she's on every single time I type something/say something. The same thing applies to minors in the guild.

On our guild application, one of our questions is "Do you have a problem with bad language or dirty/offensive humor over guild chat or ventrilo?" This is to make sure that we can still be ourselves when someone joins, regardless of gender.I think going in to where you draw the line on offensive (versus just bad) language is entirely another subject (though it is related).

You've made the same mistake that Lore did in both the video and in his reply to me above. You're both making assumptions that were not warranted based on the question asked. This is a very tough topic, especially in an MMO sub-culture and I think dedicating a weekly marmot to it might be a good idea.

You're assuming the female can't handle the current conversation or assuming that the female is behaving in some manner that forces the men to acknowledge her as different. Where did you get any of that from the question? If you didn't but you say "well that's what happens" then that is a significant problem.

Saying "I don't give advice on how the world should work but how it does work" sounds great. Unfortunately though you did neither. You gave advice based on stereotypes that were not put forward in the question. Now, the question might be longer, there might be a ton of background we don't get to see (that's often the case in advice columns) but then that would just mean you either edited the question poorly or picked a question which really couldn't be dealt with in this format.

I went back to the question to make sure I wasn't the one making assumptions and I'm confident that I'm dealing with the question as it was presented.

At no point in the question did she state she was uncomfortable with the kinds of conversations in this guild/raid. There's nothing about her that suggests (neither realistically nor in some hyperbole of the reader) that she's an attention whore. She has simply noticed - as most "outsiders" will - that the majority crowd is behaving differently around her.

Well again, the problem is on their end, not hers. I agree with every instance during which Lore stated she should essentially be herself but I felt it important to point out that he unfortunately fell into some of the negative stereotyping.

I don't want to beat a dead horse though and that's far too often what happens on forum discussions with such difficult subjects. Instead I'll say again I think a marmot dedicated to the subject would be very interesting and welcome but I would caution that it should be well researched and rehearsed to make sure that it is accurate and doesn't fall prey to the same mistakes Lore made in the PST. Maybe it's because PST answers are spontaneous? Your verbal answers came across as blaming the victim while your post above did not.

In other words I largely agree with your post (which I guess is less spontaneous and more editable/proof-readable) but the problem remains that there is no indication in the question that she is doing anything which needs to change. You are right, being herself, being part of the group is the best way to fit in and for the guys to think of her as a fellow player. But this issue is huge and well, I'm going to keep making this post longer and longer so I'll just stop. It's a sociology issue, it's interesting, it's eye-opening but it can't be dealt with by me as a reply here. I hate it when I do this, but I feel very strongly about not lowering standards to put up with forms of ignorance just because they're prevalent.

Morwo
03-27-2011, 08:35 PM
hi lore,

i am a fan of your show since, dunno i forgot. you told us serval times in your show, you're playing a pally. so i google you and found an old, but funny post of 2010:




Lore? Who's this Lore person?
A once noble Paladin who has forsaken the Light of Maintankadin for the filth and scourge of Tankspot. The Arthas of the tanking communities!

but anyway, go on with your great show. just bought me that knife too.

Therec
03-27-2011, 09:45 PM
I think going in to where you draw the line on offensive (versus just bad) language is entirely another subject (though it is related).


You're right, I misunderstood the question. I was thinking she was the one asking them to act differently because she's a girl, and now that I watched the question again, that was wrong of me. From what it sounds like she obviously wasn't uncomfortable with the guild, they just started acting differently when they realized she was a girl. There weren't problems before she revealed her gender, so there shouldn't be problems after, but there were. However, obviously this is the guild's problem, not hers, and it's one that needs to be fixed by them.

It is a social issue. The anonymity of the game lets us hide most things that would cause others to treat us differently, but gender is not so easy to hide when Ventrilo is commonly used. Maybe it's the real-life personal awkwardness around women that some male gamers feel causing these reactions. Maybe there is a sudden romantic attraction since this person that's fun to talk to and shares a common interest turns out to be a girl. Whatever the reason, it's a complicated issue.

I look forward to the weekly marmot that covers this topic.

Uranos7
03-27-2011, 10:15 PM
What I find most helpful is to try to view the situation in reverse. If a guy joined an all female group, the group dynamic would change when the guy was around. It's a simple state of human existence that men and women both behave differently when in mixed and non-mixed company. As a corollary, any time one member of a group is different, be that gender, race, nationality, etc. the group will act differently when that person is around. (The difference could be to act in a more accepting way.. but the group dynamic will change.)

On a sort of unrelated note.. the guild I'm in (10 man) has a couple female players.. neither are healers, but one does enforce our no pants raiding policy. So.. I'm not sure if that's a new stereotype, but I got a kick out of Lore's comments about the no pants raiding.

It is very true that females also act differently with no men around and are made uncomfortable if there is one.

In high school I took Art class and was the ONLY GUY in there so I did just what lore was suggesting and drew no attention to myself for a bit. Then they started talking as if I weren't there and one day they were talking about when they started wearing a bra. One of them suddenly realized I was there and asked me "OK when did you first start wearing one?" Followed by a moment of silence then everyone laughing I was one of the group after that.

PS: And I do heal "PANTS OFF" pants are only required for tanking! lol

frozenshiva
03-27-2011, 10:17 PM
I think going in to where you draw the line on offensive (versus just bad) language is entirely another subject (though it is related).

You've made the same mistake that Lore did in both the video and in his reply to me above. You're both making assumptions that were not warranted based on the question asked. This is a very tough topic, especially in an MMO sub-culture and I think dedicating a weekly marmot to it might be a good idea.

You're assuming the female can't handle the current conversation or assuming that the female is behaving in some manner that forces the men to acknowledge her as different. Where did you get any of that from the question? If you didn't but you say "well that's what happens" then that is a significant problem.

Saying "I don't give advice on how the world should work but how it does work" sounds great. Unfortunately though you did neither. You gave advice based on stereotypes that were not put forward in the question. Now, the question might be longer, there might be a ton of background we don't get to see (that's often the case in advice columns) but then that would just mean you either edited the question poorly or picked a question which really couldn't be dealt with in this format.

I went back to the question to make sure I wasn't the one making assumptions and I'm confident that I'm dealing with the question as it was presented.

At no point in the question did she state she was uncomfortable with the kinds of conversations in this guild/raid. There's nothing about her that suggests (neither realistically nor in some hyperbole of the reader) that she's an attention whore. She has simply noticed - as most "outsiders" will - that the majority crowd is behaving differently around her.

Well again, the problem is on their end, not hers. I agree with every instance during which Lore stated she should essentially be herself but I felt it important to point out that he unfortunately fell into some of the negative stereotyping.

I don't want to beat a dead horse though and that's far too often what happens on forum discussions with such difficult subjects. Instead I'll say again I think a marmot dedicated to the subject would be very interesting and welcome but I would caution that it should be well researched and rehearsed to make sure that it is accurate and doesn't fall prey to the same mistakes Lore made in the PST. Maybe it's because PST answers are spontaneous? Your verbal answers came across as blaming the victim while your post above did not.

In other words I largely agree with your post (which I guess is less spontaneous and more editable/proof-readable) but the problem remains that there is no indication in the question that she is doing anything which needs to change. You are right, being herself, being part of the group is the best way to fit in and for the guys to think of her as a fellow player. But this issue is huge and well, I'm going to keep making this post longer and longer so I'll just stop. It's a sociology issue, it's interesting, it's eye-opening but it can't be dealt with by me as a reply here. I hate it when I do this, but I feel very strongly about not lowering standards to put up with forms of ignorance just because they're prevalent.

The way i see it at least, apologies if i'm wrong, is that you're going from the premise that the world should work in a certain way. While Utopias are nice to dream of, they shouldn't be mixed in with the real things. Sometimes the best way to deal with a situation is to make the first move. It's not always fair, it's not always fun, but it simplifies the situation a lot.
Taking the genital conversation as an example.

Guys speaking about it is frankly, most of than not, simply normal and ordinary. And generally guys won't have an issue with that. Put a girl in the picture and the " eww gross you're talking about genitals" reply that Lore mentioned MIGHT happen.
One of many reasons that the comfort zone is being broken is because of the difference in morals and ideals. Sure not all girls are against it, just as not all girls are for it. But there is always that "maybe". That fourth wall that needs to be broken. Sometimes its done from the inside sometimes its done from the outside. So basically the next time you see the guys being reluctant to acting freely in hopes of not offending you (or whatever the case might be) why not just turn the joke around once and mention something that they might feel comfortable with?
Show them you are just as much part of "the gang" as the rest of them.

Going to a party where you know nobody, but everyone else knows each other, you are likely to be avoided because you are not known. What do you do? Frown upon the fact that the people don't interact with you? OR you break the wall by interacting with them?

Also as mentioned in a post above, the situation can occur in a mostly female environment as well.
Bottom line is, gaming in general is a male-dominated environment. If you want to be treated equally in an environment where you are inferior (whether in numbers, popularity or otherwise)most often than not, you should be the one breaking that fourth wall and not them.

redraven937
03-27-2011, 11:44 PM
Essentially your whole response was "you need to do something to accommodate these idiots" when it should have been "these idiots need to get over themselves and your guild leaders need to remind them that all players should be treated the same"
Err... no.

The minute a guild leader drops by and goes all Nanny State on the raid is the same minute you are labeled "That Girl" instead of "the best damn rogue we have." Lore's advice is spot-on considering the entire battle is getting over that initial Vent shock that the rogue (or whatever) you have been playing with forever has boobies. You don't want to follow-up the internal question of "Okay, she's a chick... how does this change things?" with "Hey, here is a list of changes: treat her like a princess, put on your pants, etc." If you were fine with raiding banter before, there is no reason to change it now. If some of the guys start taking out their sexual frustration out on her, yeah, that's not acceptable. Otherwise, she chose to be in this guild, warts and all.

arantes
03-28-2011, 12:01 AM
Err... no.

The minute a guild leader drops by and goes all Nanny State on the raid is the same minute you are labeled "That Girl" instead of "the best damn rogue we have." Lore's advice is spot-on considering the entire battle is getting over that initial Vent shock that the rogue (or whatever) you have been playing with forever has boobies. You don't want to follow-up the internal question of "Okay, she's a chick... how does this change things?" with "Hey, here is a list of changes: treat her like a princess, put on your pants, etc." If you were fine with raiding banter before, there is no reason to change it now. If some of the guys start taking out their sexual frustration out on her, yeah, that's not acceptable. Otherwise, she chose to be in this guild, warts and all.Wow. I'm not sure how you get from "treat people normally" to "treat her like a princess". Of course this is part of the problem.

I am insisting on treating the player who asked the question normally, a lot of people think Lore did just that, but I'm trying to point out that even if Lore believes she should be treated normally (and I think he does) he fell prey to stereotypes or social conventions and was unable to articulate this properly.

Again, there is no indication in her question that she's uncomfortable with anything, so shiva, I do have to say that you're wrong about my supposed premise. I don't want utopian anythings I want the question to be dealt with without making assumptions that are not present and that betray certain cultural/social prejudices.

If a raid leader were to say "WTF guys, never seen a girl before? She's been in our raid for weeks now, act like you know how to talk to one" that would be fine with me. Remember the question as presented was: THEY changed their behavior when they found out she was a woman, how can she fix that? The answer is not, she should accomodate them, the answer is you remind them nothing has changed. Men shouldn't stop treating her like a raider because she's a girl, that's all the answer required. Instead the answer had some poorly chosen words (stay in the background) some stereotypes and even a blame the victim approach (you need to do something to fix it).

I'm just trying to focus on the actual question and not jump to conclusions about the issues. People who have disagreed with me seem to, as far as I can tell, be jumping to conclusion that are not warranted by her question and that are not warranted by my reply.

Remember she's been raiding with them for a while now. What changed? Nothing. Remind them of that. THE WHOLE POINT IS NOTHING HAS CHANGED. Women aren't some sort of weird alien thing that everyone has to figure out how to treat and they're not going to change your guild and make you never say a bad word and prohibit you from having fun. Shouldn't that be especially obvious in this case where the person who posed the question has in fact been fitting in perfectly well already?

I do want to say I appreciate this forum for discussion, I know this is not an easy subject and while I'm used to arguing similarly touchy things on other forums I wish I could be more concise and effective so apologies for the walls of text and again thank you for the forum.

Malaegis
03-28-2011, 01:58 AM
Remember she's been raiding with them for a while now. What changed? Nothing. Remind them of that. THE WHOLE POINT IS NOTHING HAS CHANGED. Women aren't some sort of weird alien thing that everyone has to figure out how to treat and they're not going to change your guild and make you never say a bad word and prohibit you from having fun. Shouldn't that be especially obvious in this case where the person who posed the question has in fact been fitting in perfectly well already?


It is not true that nothing has changed. Up until they found out the players gender, the other players assumed that it was another guy. Once they found out that their assumption was wrong, their perception changed. In a very real way, their perception of the raid and vent group in general was changed. This is not the fault of the female player. In fact, her question was basically "how do I get them to go back to ignoring my gender?" She is, as you say, not trying to prohibit fun or cut down on the bad language. She just wants to be one of the guys.

In watching Lore's response, I basically agree with him. The best way for them to get over it, and have them go back to ignoring it, is to ignore it yourself. There will be a 'feeling out' period, where the guys will alternate between acting like crude imbeciles and perfect gentlemen to see what reactions they get. After a while, if there is little or no reaction, the guys will slowly realize that she is just another gamer, another person, another member of the team. There is no magic bullet that will make that happen instantly, but unless there is a constant reminder of the differences, it will happen.

I would offer the same advice to anyone having a hard time fitting in to a new group where something sets them apart. Go along with the jokes, don't be overly sensitive, and generally just try to fit in. Over time, the similarities will always overshadow the differences, and acceptance will occur.

Daii
03-28-2011, 02:08 AM
If a raid leader were to say "WTF guys, never seen a girl before? She's been in our raid for weeks now, act like you know how to talk to one" that would be fine with me. Remember the question as presented was: THEY changed their behavior when they found out she was a woman, how can she fix that? The answer is not, she should accomodate them, the answer is you remind them nothing has changed. Men shouldn't stop treating her like a raider because she's a girl, that's all the answer required. Instead the answer had some poorly chosen words (stay in the background) some stereotypes and even a blame the victim approach (you need to do something to fix it).

What i think Lore tried to say, and i think others tried to say that i'm not sure you either not agree upon or something is that in a perfect world girls wouldn't need to change what they're doing if the guys suddenly started to be uncomfortable because... their warlock is a girl. And i'm sure in a guild with a sensible leader/officer as you say it can be said "officially" that nothing has changed that should have changed their behavior since they've been raiding together for awhile and know each other. But if that is not the case, and the assumption here is that usually that is not the case, what can SHE do to make the situation better?

Because obviously if you're stuck in a situation like that you can't just twiddle your thumbs hoping the world is gonna turn into a better place soon.

That's my two cents anyway.

Katzazi
03-28-2011, 02:52 AM
I don't like the manner of many people writing here. So many are assuming that the one who asked the question demands anything else but what every other player does. I don't know her, I don't know what she actually wants. But I know many females (including myself) who just want to be treated like any other player. And who is quite cappable with not getting special attention, or special language or special help or whatever. The answer of Lore (and some comment) reminded me badly about the answer to the question in last PST about if there are hardcore guilds raiding without voice-tools. Everybody assumend, that the person was deaf or mute or whatever. Well ok, chances are high that that's the case. But I know enough people who just don't want to use such tools because of other (relevant) issues. But nontheless not wanting or being able to use vent or comparable tools IS something that actually interferes with how most players raid. So it may be an issue that would affect the performance of the raid. Your gender in general does not.

Then there was the age-question. Even while age does not affect the "skill" of the player directly, there can be issues like raid times or stuff like that (but there are also many adult people having issues with late raiding hours). There may be other things involved (such as puberty often is a very hard thing to deal with, but that's more or less personal). But there may be also some legal issues involved if everybody keeps acting as "normal". So if people want to continue with special language and pictures and stuff. So adding an underaged person to the raid/guild probably does not affect the performance of the raid but may force the group to change other things.

But that's not the case with females. If we had no problem with what you said or did before you knew our gender, you knowing our gender does not change that. If our performance was up to your standards before you knew our gender, you knowing our gender does not change our performance as well.

So being female as such is not the issue. It was no issue before everybody learned her (our) gender. The issue is what happens, when "you" learn that she is female. She has not changed at all. And yes, there is a difference between you and her. And a difference between your assumtion of her and her person. But you know what? That's probably the case for nearly everyone you play with. There are advocates playing with cooks. There are students playing with parents of other students. There are players of every color you can imagine. They hear all kinds of music. There are players from different countries (well less so for US servers I assume, but it's the case over here in europe). The backgrounds of WoW players vary widely. And I'm sure that you laughed out loud about most of the pictures that people posted about themselves in the guild-forum, because they did not reflect what you've imagined them to look like.

So all the freaking out when you realize the gender of another player is just irrational. We don't want to be treated differently and there is just no cause to do so. But we are treated differently much more than everybody would do in real life (like I posted above).

Sure the answer to her question is: just be yourself. But while most people will treat her "normaly" after a while, others will always give her a special treatment. This treatment can be of very different kinds (affronting, romantic, patronizing, emberassing, emotional overloading,...) but will in all cases be unasked for by her. And there is just no general way for her to stop this. That's the sad answer.

Krenian
03-28-2011, 04:54 AM
A lil note:

This topic is a rather touchy one for certain people. Thread in this very carefully and hopefully we can stay civil. Debate is good, insulting is bad.

Not saying it's being done. All I'm saying is watch and don't click the post reply button if you think it has something that could insult someone.

We're all gamers at heart. That's the gist of it. It shouldn't matter what sex a person is. We're all human beings capable of giving the same respect to the opposite sex. Some of the best tanks I've ever met were of the female sex and I don't regret that one bit! Gave me a big appreciation for the gaming community.

Shiny Bobblehead
03-28-2011, 11:32 AM
Loved the show, can't wait for the next and the weekly marmot

Oh, and dudes have the Y chromosome, not the women.

mratomic
03-28-2011, 09:12 PM
High school Biology

Males XY
Females XX

Love the show, hate misinformation.

lostknight0727
03-29-2011, 03:39 AM
well I could only catch 2 of those Balisong flips, I saw the full twirl, and the double index rollover. Also great show, should do more with the Balisong, maybe people will stop sending you books if they know how good you are with a knife lol.