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View Full Version : Tanking Threat advice conerning my guild



Kayless
03-23-2011, 11:08 AM
Hi all, i am quite a seasoned tank, and am finding some issues with my guild members. perhaps some other tanks know my pain. i have been watching over the current building of tank gear and stat prio's i know that we are all tending to go for large amounts of mitigation. but with my guild having 1 hunter most of the time i find it very difficult to keep a solid threat lead without reforging some hit and expertise , i managed to blance my stats out abit, here they are.

Health : 158,491
Armour : 36,402
Dodge : 9.51%
Parry : 14.62%
Block : 49.06% (without battle shout ofc)
Hit : 5.62%
Expertise : 17 (i use expertise food witch brings it to 20)


These hit and expertise values most tanks do not even have close to but without them my threat just dosen't seem to be high enough, i am doing everything correctly rotation and situation wise, there just pushing to hard when i have no hit or expertise this is, am wanting to drop down this hit and expertise so i can bring more survivability to my char but at the same time i will get bitching from the dps, if any one knows how i can solve this issue while keeping my self dps and healers happy please post here with your suggestions because am at a loss for a good way to solve this problem.

thank you for your time , Kayless :)

Kayless
03-23-2011, 11:09 AM
sorry for the miss spell in the title of the thread lol

Riz
03-23-2011, 11:29 AM
I was having some warrior threat issues also still using a 333 weapon AND goin with the no hit no expert statting...I starteed using an elixer of naga which gave me 8-10 expert, and some expert food...jumping me from 6or so, to almost 20...i still dont really use hit, as expertise i feel has better value...this completely fixedmy thgreat problim...Once i upgraded to the 346 weapon, ive since been able to reduce some of the expertise, and now only use the extra elixer/food if i have a pain in the ass dps who doesnt understand that ALL tanks now rely on Vengeance to build threat...If theyre popping cd's and burning mobs as soon as you are, they willalways pull...They need to give us a few seconds to build vengeance..We need to take dmg 1st to deal significant dmg! Hope this helps...This is the best i can give general advice not seeing gear/spec...Withyour hit/expertrise being almost as high as adps would use,i can only assume dps isnt doin their job, or perhaps your rotation could use some adjustments...Im currently only about 1.80% hit, and 9 expert (18-20 expert with food/elixer)The hit is just whats from gear.
Also you have quite a gap in your dodge/parry..5.11% is quite a gap

Kayless
03-23-2011, 06:32 PM
hey riz, i am in pretty high end gear realy my rotation is fine but tonight i dropped all my hit and expertise and seems to be working out i dunno if the dps have changed there minds on how things should work with tanks or it was a lower gear lvl problem , but tonight i was doing around 30-60k tps without issues, so problem solved it seems :)

mistrale
03-23-2011, 07:43 PM
i wouldnt regem for threat. they just need to watch their threat meters. lets face it, once vengeance stacks, i seriously doubt any dps is going to pull on you.

the only time i put on a threat set, is for pugs.

captanmurdoc
03-24-2011, 12:04 AM
for future best way i found to solve the problem, let the dps spend 1 night of raiding on the floor. they will start to learn they have to give tanks a little time to build threat, at least till hardmodes.

Katzazi
03-24-2011, 01:50 AM
Hit and expertise have a relatively low impact to our threat. Even when we can land every hit, it can be a close start when the dps go full out right from the beginning. But in most cases you should be fine with dps letting you open up with one or two big hitters (and maybe a missdirect), anyway. Remember, they can climb up to 109% without a problem, you can taunt when they are there, to overtake them again, and if that does not help, onle the one person who is top in threat-meter has to stop doing something for 1-3 GCDs.

As soon as Vengeance kicks in, you will be fine, anyway.

Fetzie
03-24-2011, 03:34 AM
I tried regemming/reforging to get some more hit rating and to soft-cap my expertise (paladin, post HoPo fix), to be perfectly honest I hardly noticed any difference. HoPo generation was perhaps a little smoother, but other than that no real discernable difference. I did, however, have to drop 4% avoidance and about 6% block to do it.

klausi
03-24-2011, 04:00 AM
I've to disagree here Katzazi, when your dps is epic geared missing the very first globals will let you lose aggro all the time* and if a ranged class draw aggro the mob must be repositioned and so on. Having 5/16 dps (10s/25s) wait for your vengeance to kick on every try/boss doesn't seem to be right to me and you can only taunt if they actually draw aggro .. this opens up a 5.6% risk of them dying instantly to a melee crit.

The game is hard enough for our dps without watching Omen, we expect them to do tremendous dps and not fail on environment/mechanics and that's not as easy as it sounds for heroic modes. And there are quite regulary not only one person at the start of the fight conquering for the threat crown but at least all of your mages/fury/rets if geared and played properly. Mages got invis, Rets can drop aggro on purpose via salvation (glyphed) but will come back 10s later, those +20% damage modifiers (deathwish/avenger's wrath) should give you some trouble.

* unless you're running very assistance (tricks/md/thorns) heavy

All we can do is hoping for our initial "heroic throw/shield slam/shockwave/concussion blow/revenge/shield slam" combo to land, supported by recklessness or retalation.


at least till hardmodes.
So we're playing different games, gemming different routes and expecting our players doing things totally different for normal and hardmodes because of ??? The difference between a 359 and a 372 geared protection warrior tank is roughly 900 attackpower (buffed) and our hit and expertise should remain the same (~ 0 & ~ 3-5 depending on race) while our dps gain a huge increasement to all their +damage ratings.

@ Pyrea (http://www.tankspot.com/member.php?20146-Pyrea)
Paladin shouldn't have such big problems on their snap aggro thanks to lots of attacks whose can be performed on the runby and several cooldowns/buffs whose can be applyied before engaging.
3 HoPo - Inquisition - Avenger's Wrath - Exorcism - Avenger's Shield - Judgement - ..

Katzazi
03-24-2011, 05:52 AM
I've to disagree here Katzazi, when your dps is epic geared missing the very first globals will let you lose aggro all the time*

No, people can just slow down in between and it's only at the beginning, where the first few globals make a difference, given that you have threat shortly afterwards. Threat is additive. Later on in the fight it does not matter anymore if you have 20k threat more or less. It only matters as long as Vengeance does not blow you above everybody else.

And: Even with hit-cap and 26 expertise (which is considered "expertise cap" but is really a soft cap) you can happen to not-connect your initial SS or something. Just because you need much more expertise to get parry-capped. Which nobody - including you - is proposing.


Having 5/16 dps (10s/25s) wait for your vengeance to kick on every try/boss doesn't seem to be right to me and you can only taunt if they actually draw aggro ..

Nobody has to wait all the time until Vengeance kicks in. Some may have to wait some GCDs or use them to do something else worth doing. It's not as long as Vengeance needs to build up. And you actually CAN taunt before they draw aggro. - If you wait until they are around 105% / 125% you will get more threat by taunting by using their threat-level, without them drawing aggro.

Sure there are heroic modes where that is not enough, but this threat is NOT about heroic modes but about normal raids.


The game is hard enough for our dps without watching Omen, we expect them to do tremendous dps and not fail on environment/mechanics and that's not as easy as it sounds for heroic modes.

But the game is not hard enough for your healers? There are only very few DPS who have "to watch Omen" for a very short time if at all. And btw, doing nothing for some seconds or slowing down actually makes it easier to not fail on the environment/mechanics. And if your dps are configuring their addons well, they even don't need to look at omen. They either can see the danger of pulling threat by stuff like threat bars/tidy bars or whatever or get a sound played when they reach a predefined threat level.


So we're playing different games, gemming different routes and expecting our players doing things totally different for normal and hardmodes because of ??? The difference between a 359 and a 372 geared protection warrior tank is roughly 900 attackpower (buffed) and our hit and expertise should remain the same (~ 0 & ~ 3-5 depending on race) while our dps gain a huge increasement to all their +damage ratings.

No but because the normal-mode-geared tank would lose too many survival ratings when going full out on hit and expertise AND you don't need the inital burn phase anywhere on normal modes. Either it just does not matter where you pop bloodlust or it's best used on later phases (exception beeing Halfus but survival is quite important there, too).

On normal modes healers are not at the point where they can affored bigger heals most of the time. So as long as the tank is not at a given mitigation/avoidance level, they are blowing down their mana quite fast.

When you get to the gear to play heroic modes, you have much more freedom on how to spend your ratings. You probably will have some "threat"-items to switch over to fo specific encounters, where you need the burn right from the beginning. But even while you do so, you will be able to maintain more or less the mitigatn/avoidance level you had on normal modes. And your healers have much more mana. THAT's why it's a good idea to gear differently on normal and heroic versions.

ironsides
03-25-2011, 12:29 AM
Threat really isn't that big a deal on most fights besides a precious few. Usually you can afford to wait a few seconds, and yes as said before make sure you are throwing conc blow and shockwave into your rotation. If your an orc use your racial cooldown. DON'T apply thunderclap/demo shout instantly, it is more important to get that threat at the very start, unless a boss is really wrecking you, you can wait a few moments to apply them or have the offtank handle it until you have steady threat. Currently I notice fury warriors/feral druids/moonkins competing for threat most often. It doesn't hurt the raid dps that much for them to wait 5 seconds before they go all out. Also as said before, dps will learn or they will die.