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Aliena
03-22-2011, 05:04 PM
BCtKiwVkbdo


Hello, and welcome to Tankspot's Heroic Cataclysm Raid Guide. My name is Papapaint, and in this video, I'll be discussing the strategy for defeating Hard Mode Magmaw in the Blackwing Descent raid instance.

Magmaw has become significantly more complicated in his hard mode form. As with the other Hard Mode guides, I will assume you are familiar with the normal mode encounter and deal primarily with the changes present in Heroic. That dastardly Nefarian has come to observe this fight, as he does the other hard mode encounters in Blackwing Descent. He floats around behind Magmaw and throws stuff at your raid to make the fight more difficult.


For the first 70% of the encounter, Nefarian will hurl meteors at your raid at roughly 35 second intervals. When the meteors hit, they will knock back any players within the impact radius--roughly 5 yards--and create a twisting line of fire that will slowly move back and forth. As of a recent patch, this mechanic will prefer players at range, so you shouldn't frequently see melee range meteors as in this video. The fires they make hurt pretty badly, so it's quite easy for a raider to die immediately after being hit by a meteor and lying in fire for the duration of the knockback.


More importantly, the meteor impacts will spawn Blazing Bone Constructs, giant skeletons which must be DPS'd down when possible, and require the addition of a tank in 25 man difficulty. He sends these out every 30 seconds, and it's fairly tough for a tank to handle more than two of them without generous use of cooldowns; as such, your best bet is to focus your DPS on skeletons until Magmaw's head is exposed.


Whenever the skeletons reach 20% HP, they begin channeling an 8-second spell called "Armageddon". They must be killed before the spell finishes casting, or else they explode and hit your raid for a significant amount of damage. For this reason, I would advise against trying to cleave down the skeletons, and instead focus your dps onto them anytime the head is not exposed.


When Magmaw reaches 30%, Nefarian gives up on his meteor strategy and instead chain-casts AoE shadowbolts. These hit for around 25 thousand damage, and can splash to other players; simply spready out, pop heroism slash bloodlust, and go to town on magmaw. He will still fall over during this phase, so it's actually a little easier than the rest of the fight; just a hard burn against your healers' mana.


Thanks for watching this guide. I've included some footage of our kill, along with some commentary to identify a few specific ways in which we handled certain mechanics. If you're interested in seeing future raid guides from Tankspot, please subscribe to the Zam official channel on youtube. Good luck!

Kazeyonoma
03-22-2011, 09:20 PM
so is this done with 2 tanks? 1 for constructs 1 for magmaw? or do you need a 3rd tank to taunt off of magmaw when he mangles?

Papapaint
03-22-2011, 09:39 PM
so is this done with 2 tanks? 1 for constructs 1 for magmaw? or do you need a 3rd tank to taunt off of magmaw when he mangles?

You do need a third tank, although it can also be done with only two tanks and very reliable add focus DPS.

Blacksen
03-22-2011, 10:58 PM
I'm pretty sure you mentioned it in the commentary, but just in case anyone missed it...

In regards to the patch, the meteor change is now extreme. You can have everyone stack in melee range except for hunters and your parasite kiter. In the 25man, you need only 3 people at range to guarantee that all meteors avoid the melee. This allows you to have the other 22 individuals to never need to move.

Usually, the 3 people are your parasite kiter and hunters.

Sh4ggY
03-23-2011, 12:21 AM
Hi all!

Im a 10-man raids tank healer, and never tried this fight in hc, but read a lot about it. So i have an advice for going to p2: hit the boss until 31-32 % wait for a head phase, pop bl and all dps cds, ignore big adds(if they arent in casting armageddon), just nuke the head like hell and u will get a much shorter p2. Much less stress for healers,tanks and dps. I didnt see anybody mentioned this here,that why i posted this.

swelt
03-23-2011, 02:24 AM
I'm pretty sure you mentioned it in the commentary, but just in case anyone missed it...

In regards to the patch, the meteor change is now extreme. You can have everyone stack in melee range except for hunters and your parasite kiter. In the 25man, you need only 3 people at range to guarantee that all meteors avoid the melee. This allows you to have the other 22 individuals to never need to move.

Usually, the 3 people are your parasite kiter and hunters.

Can you expand on that? It sounds like quite a significant variation on the strategy. Parasite kiter?

Edit: Actually it is mentioned in the video, but only in passing and in the freeform bit at the end. So this is just a hunter or frost DK picking up parasites that spawn from the pillar of flame and running in circles?

One other thing: I think I observed in the Paragon vid, they used 1 tank for magmaw and a feral druid to soak mangles? (ie. cat most of the time, goes bear just before mangle and taunts, gets nommed, mangle returns to primary tank who has no debuff.)

Del
03-23-2011, 06:02 AM
What class should we be using for parasite kiting?

**edit** Sorry I'm apparently bad at reading... More specifically, given the choice, hunter or frost DK? It seems to me that it would be a bit more challenging for the hunter, but I'd like to hear opinions from people that have done it. We have both a hunter and a DK that I trust to do it, so it's just a matter of saving some time by making the right decision going in.

Urud
03-23-2011, 06:13 AM
I'm pretty sure you mentioned it in the commentary, but just in case anyone missed it...

In regards to the patch, the meteor change is now extreme. You can have everyone stack in melee range except for hunters and your parasite kiter. In the 25man, you need only 3 people at range to guarantee that all meteors avoid the melee. This allows you to have the other 22 individuals to never need to move.

Usually, the 3 people are your parasite kiter and hunters.

This is actually a really nice idea, thanks for testing the 'needed-to-be-outside' ammount of people.

Papapaint
03-23-2011, 07:10 AM
I'm pretty sure you mentioned it in the commentary, but just in case anyone missed it...

In regards to the patch, the meteor change is now extreme. You can have everyone stack in melee range except for hunters and your parasite kiter. In the 25man, you need only 3 people at range to guarantee that all meteors avoid the melee. This allows you to have the other 22 individuals to never need to move.

Usually, the 3 people are your parasite kiter and hunters.

Incorrect, you need only one person at range. There are guilds doing this with only their kiter at range, but that makes healing him somewhat difficult and makes it tougher for him to pick up parasites if a meteor is landing on him too.


Edit: Actually it is mentioned in the video, but only in passing and in the freeform bit at the end. So this is just a hunter or frost DK picking up parasites that spawn from the pillar of flame and running in circles?

Correct.

Muggins
03-24-2011, 05:21 AM
Incorrect, you need only one person at range. There are guilds doing this with only their kiter at range, but that makes healing him somewhat difficult and makes it tougher for him to pick up parasites if a meteor is landing on him too.


We managed to get him down last night on 10m initially trying only having the kiter out at range but kept getting constructs landing in the melee pile outside of the usual 'leaning forward' periods. When we changed to having 3 people stood outside they stopped.

Vitasia
03-24-2011, 07:29 AM
We just killed this last night, experimenting with who was at range. We found that as long as two people stay at range, all of the meteors will go to those two people. We chose a DK kiter and a resto druid to heal him up, and it worked out pretty well. I believe we also had our hunters at minimum range stacked up with the rest of the dps, which ends up helping out a lot.

One thing to note using this strat: if either the DK or the resto druid go down, someone HAS to get out of range quickly to battle rez. If a meteor is cast while only one person is in range, there's a strong likelihood the melee or tanks get targeted.

The biggest difficulty for DPS would be moving during the vents, and knowing when to focus on the exposed head vs. kill the bone constructs. While the bone constructs have to be burned down fairly quickly, we really didn't have any trouble as long as people were focused on them.

The one issue with stacking up comes once he hits 30% and the shadow bolts start. We had everyone move at 31% to avoid any bad shadowbolts and spread out. Range burned down the last bone construct, then switched to Magmaw. We also saved Bloodlust for this phase when the head was exposed.

All in all, this wasn't a terribly difficult heroic once the kiter knows what paths to take and we changed strats to stack on melee. After Magmaw and Conclaive, I'm sure our DKs would like to go back to actually DPSing instead of kiting everything, though. :)

kameelyan
03-24-2011, 09:02 AM
We're working on this in 10m and we use 3 at range (the add tank, a resto druid, and a dk kiter). That said, how are people avoiding Magmaw melee'ing random targets? It really is driving us nuts.

We had a 14% attempt, but couldn't get back to that afterwards due to him randomly melee'ing a dps right after an exposed head.

Muggins
03-24-2011, 09:57 AM
If you're tank switching try to have the tank who's picking up the constructs taunt Magmaw after the other tank gets picked up and chewed on. You have to time it right however as sometimes he won't have a threat list when flopping around and it just gets plain ignored, as long as that tank manages to be at the top of the threat list after he comes up back off the spike we usually found he'd leave the melee pile alone.

Ladiian
03-24-2011, 04:19 PM
We're working on this in 10m and we use 3 at range (the add tank, a resto druid, and a dk kiter). That said, how are people avoiding Magmaw melee'ing random targets? It really is driving us nuts.

We had a 14% attempt, but couldn't get back to that afterwards due to him randomly melee'ing a dps right after an exposed head.

I know this works on norm not sure bout heroic but to avoid mag randomly one shotting people do two things.

1: While the tank is being mangled he can still do actions. So make sure he is watching and right before magmaw gets impaled he should taunt back. So as soon as magmaw comes back up he is 100% threat on tank.

2: Have everyone in the melee group (so everyone bar add tank resto druid and dk kiter) have them move back about 10 yards, just enough so they are just out of melee range. Magmaw cant hit them if they are out of melee. You only need to do this until he focuses the tank again properly. Thats how we solved that annoying little issue.

hope that helps

Khilbron
03-24-2011, 05:33 PM
Incorrect, you need only one person at range. There are guilds doing this with only their kiter at range, but that makes healing him somewhat difficult and makes it tougher for him to pick up parasites if a meteor is landing on him too.


After clearing Heroic Magmaw 25 last night, we started with 1 person at range along with the parasite kiter, and had 2 meteors select melee, after that we moved 3 people to ranged (4 counting the kiter), and had only 1 meteor select melee. To clarify as to what I mean by melee, we had everyone on the ledge almost to the point where tapping W would make you fall off, and we still received meteors in melee, however it is considerably more manageable. Also to note another Heroic change, the Bone Constructs lost about 2.5million health, so they are absolutely cleaveable in 25man.

lora5
03-24-2011, 11:16 PM
good post

Dagray
05-04-2011, 01:16 AM
In response to the question about Frost DK vs Hunter for add duty.

I've been attempting this fight on 10m w/ my guild and here's what I've seen so far in terms of adds (I'm the kiter (SV Hunter)).

1. Since Frost DK's Howling Blast was nerfed, they will end up kiting a large set of adds for a while. This is doable but harder.

2. Due to the recent buff to Hunter AOE, Survival (w/ Entrapment) is the absolute best spec for kiting these adds IMO. Granted, marksman can continually slow w/ Concussive Barrage, but they will have much less aoe and therefore will have more adds to contend w/.

3. As a Survival Hunter, w/ liberal use of Snake + Ice Traps, you can basically shoot and scoot the little adds to death before the next set pops. It's quite close in most scenarios but having the first set mostly dead when the second set pops helps immensely with kiting.

I'm sure that's it's entirely feasible to kite as MM or a Frost DK, but it just seems easier to rely on entrapment and other roots to keep them at bay while you lay into them. You just have to be careful that you dont over aggro the Bone Construct when it spawns. To combat this, just MD the bone construct to your add tank and hold off Multi Shot until it's out of range.

In depth SV kiting technique:

Have 2 others at range (mage, healer). Keep them towards the wall on the right hand side that way you always know where the constructs/packs of adds will spawn if not on yourself.

Make liberal use of Entrapment (SV talent, 2nd tier). It allows you to get 8 seconds of roots and ~75% uptime on slows every 24s. Save your snake trap for just after the adds leave your ice trap or just use it immediately after the ice trap root wears off to keep them in your explosive trap longer. Either way works.

Call for Frost Nova if you get into trouble or need a bit of time to help dps magmaw's head. Remember, Disengage & Aspect of the Fox are your friends.

All of this is based on 10m HC Magmaw w/ the following comp:

Tanks:
Paladin
DK

DPS:
Feral Druid
Fire Mage
Assasination Rogue
Shadow Priest

Healers:
Resto Shaman
Resto Druid
Discipline Priest

Kiter:
Survival Hunter

gabbu
05-04-2011, 07:38 AM
This question particularly for 25 man heroic version. In my old guild on 10 - normal we uses a warrior tank who just sits there and tanks the parasites with extra healing from victory rush (glyphed) every-time a parasite dies. This made the fight real easy as about 30 secs after the start of fight a new parasite will die every few secs making the warrior self heal a ton.

Anyone know if the parasite health and debuff changes from normal to heroic mode because I want to know if the abovesaid strategy will work on 25 heroic or not?

Dagray
05-04-2011, 08:47 AM
About warrior kiting/tanking:

I'm not going to recommend that strategy. There are a few reasons why.

1. Parasite melee damage may be increased, and the debuff may have also increased as well.

2. If the warrior isn't careful he may over aggro the bone constructs when they spawn.

3. He'll still need healing even w/ victory rush.

With a normal kiter (DK/Hunter) the person only needs to be healed from Magmaw's ranged attacks if he/she does their job correctly. As a hunter you can effectively kill the parasites just before the next set spawns which will allow you to help dps magmaw a bit during head phases. Also, it seems bad form to just sit there and tank something that was intended to be kited.

That said, I would definitely try it out if you want. If it still works in heroic then you'll be fine as long as the warrior watches aoe damage if a construct is around and doesn't need too much healing from parasite damage. I highly doubt it will work though.

EDIT: Also, I'm pretty sure that there are alot more parasites in 25m which will increase your warriors need for heals. This is bad. You really want to save all of your healers mana for the 2 MT's, the raid and more specifically for when Nefarion whigs after you get Magmaw sub 30%.

For your kiters:

Frost DK: Prime Glyph of Howling Blast
MM Hunter: Spec: Concussive Barrage (2) Bombardment (2) Major Glyph of Ice Trap
SV Hunter: Spec: Entrapment (2) Serpent Spread (2) Point of No Escape* (2) Major Glyph of Ice Trap

Frost + MM = More slows, no roots, less aoe
SV = Less consistent slows, roots, more aoe

* = PoNE Talent is only if you're absolutely trying to maximize small add dps to give yourself time to dps magmaw without kiting while doing so.

Giliandrix
05-05-2011, 07:37 AM
Just got it down last night! Survival Hunter kiting did wonders for my group.

As for 25mans, since they're easier than 10's in terms of group flexibility and class stacking, why not use a 3rd tank for it? Most guilds do I imagine. Warriors with Rend/Blood and Thunder/Glyphed Victory Rush/Shockwave, will excel at tanking the adds.

beartanker
05-06-2011, 09:03 AM
So we just tried this last night [10 heroic]. We used a bear (myself) and a DK tank, switching off who was on the boss and the constructs. Is this the only way to do it? It seems like the DK tank would have a much easier time gathering constructs, but then again, the armor debuff after you get mangled would necessitate a tank switch anyway, right?

Fetzie
05-06-2011, 09:08 AM
We don't do a tank switch, I (paladin) tank the boss, our warrior tanks the adds.

beartanker
05-06-2011, 09:15 AM
Interesting. Do you have to use CDs such as AD, DP, etc., to survive? That seems like a much better strategy.

Fetzie
05-06-2011, 09:21 AM
We have a Hand of Protection/divine shield for each mangle phase which eliminates the need for healing me for a while (I HoP myself the first one, our holy pala HoPs the second, our retri does the third, mine is ready again for the fourth and final one. This leaves me free to use my personal cooldowns for between mangles (I try to make sure my guardian is ready for the final push from ~15% to zero because the raid is taking a large amount of damage at that point). I use divine protection (20% cooldown) before each mangle to soften the blow as the boss can sometimes slip in an unavoidable melee swing just as you are picked up, which can be 90k damage + a tick of mangle for 60k = 150k damage, DP reduces this potential burst to "just" 120k).

You only actually take about 20-25 seconds of damage between mangles.

Giliandrix
05-06-2011, 09:22 AM
Whoah bubble/bop clears the mangle debuff?

Fetzie
05-06-2011, 09:23 AM
no, but it makes you immune to the mangle damage when picked up meaning the healers can stop other people dying.

Ion
05-06-2011, 09:24 AM
So we just tried this last night [10 heroic]. We used a bear (myself) and a DK tank, switching off who was on the boss and the constructs. Is this the only way to do it? It seems like the DK tank would have a much easier time gathering constructs, but then again, the armor debuff after you get mangled would necessitate a tank switch anyway, right?

There's no reason to switch who gets the constructs. The mangle debuff would be more apt to kill the construct tank than the boss tank if/when you get two constructs...the boss doesn't really hit that hard.

You shouldn't be "gathering" constructs, really...you pick them up when they come out and kill them. Most of your boss DPS will be during head phases...most of the rest of the time you're basically killing constructs...you can put some dps on the boss, but it's not really your priority.

You'll probably have some time when you have two up, but you shouldn't really ever have more than that and you should typically only have one most of the time (until 30%). No tank should have any particular trouble with that (you can really just taunt them and then deal with them when they get to you).

beartanker
05-06-2011, 09:31 AM
So it is possible for me to start out on Magmaw, enter a mangle phase, get thrown off, and then pick him up again after he is no longer chained? Will the armor debuff have faded by then?

I'd say that 90% of the time, I have two constructs to tank. I just need more practice at it, as I have been playing moonkin most of this tier.

Giliandrix
05-06-2011, 09:34 AM
No, you will still have Mangle

Fetzie
05-06-2011, 09:36 AM
The fight goes thus for us:

pull
@88-89% boss hp the first construct spawns.
ALL dps kill the construct.
a new one spawns about 4 seconds after the current one dies.
if a construct has less than 40% health when the exposed head comes down we kill it before focussing the head. any new contructs are picked up by the tank and held until the head phase ends. Then we quickly kill the lowest hp add before continuing to kill the constructs until the next head phase.
the boss is at about 32% (we do a damage stop then) when the 4th mangle begins, then we bloodlust when the head comes down and nuke it as hard as we can, it is at about 15% when the head goes back up and nef triggers P3.

Ion
05-06-2011, 09:41 AM
The fight goes thus for us:

pull
@88-89% boss hp the first construct spawns.
ALL dps kill the construct.
a new one spawns about 4 seconds after the current one dies.
if a construct has less than 40% health when the exposed head comes down we kill it before focussing the head. any new contructs are picked up by the tank and held until the head phase ends. Then we quickly kill the lowest hp add before continuing to kill the constructs until the next head phase.
the boss is at about 32% (we do a damage stop then) when the 4th mangle begins, then we bloodlust when the head comes down and nuke it as hard as we can, it is at about 15% when the head goes back up and nef triggers P3.

Yeah...exactly that. That's basically the most succinct and accurate summary of the fight possible...well played sir.

A few more details: You should have a couple ranged out (dealing with Parasites and getting the Constructs spawning on them...so they don't spawn on the raid...which is bad) and everyone else stacking on melee (for easy heals and to stay away from the Parasites). You should have the tank stay in melee until he has to pick up a Construct, then head back in and dps it there.

Dagray
05-07-2011, 02:32 PM
When it comes to tanking I'm not completely certain on the best scenario but it is definitely doable for a tank to solo tank magmaw.

Here's a few tips I've heard:

1. Use Guardian/Battle Elixirs instead of Stamina Flasks. Mitigation is amazing in heroic fights, much more effective than stamina given that you're above the survival soft cap.

Options:
Elixir of Deep Earth - 900 armor
Prismatic Elixir - 90 resistance
Elixir of the Master - 225 mastery
Elixir of the Cobra - 225 crit

There are more options, but those are the most effective IMO. Your magmaw tank should probably be using armor + mastery, he should also have decent resistance cooldowns. A Blood DK is great for this. Use BOPs, Armor Pots, Raid Cooldowns such as Spirit Link and more to keep your tank alive during mangle. The Add Tank (Both Kiter and Non) should use Prismatic + Mastery or Crit. You could have your dps kiter keep a flask on but in my experience, 8-10% less dmg from magical damage is much better than a bit more damage on adds you're kiting.

A few last pointers I picked up on our kill:

If you're an SV Hunter kiting, remind the entire raid that your ice + snake traps root. That means that even if you have aggro on them, they will attack others when rooted. This can be avoided by anyone in the raid simply moving a few feet away whenever you root them.

Instruct your dps that is outside w/ the heals + kiter that he/she needs to keep to the same area for the most part. This will simplify the spawning of meteors + the fire they bring. If they move around too much outside of when pillars/meteors spawn, it will make your kiters job much harder.

It is absolutely amazing to have a holy priest healing on the outside. I had a disc priest, but having access to Body + Soul whenever shielded is an amazing boost to kiting. Lifegrip can be useful as well, but due to the long cooldown, you'll need to save it for the best/worst case scenario.

All players on the outside need to be aware that the tank may need a second or two to pick up the add. Give that, a hunter can solve this issue entirely, a good rogue can as well. You could also have a dps w/ an aggro drop who is stationed on the inside grab aggro on the add immediately when it spawns and then drop aggro once it gets to the add tank (the dps on the inside will be w/in a few feet of the add tank therefore it will enable the tank to simply hit the add as it walks by to gib the dps)

There is an alternate strategy which doesnt involve kiting. Instead you need atleast 3 amazing aoe ranged classes and one with a knockback. Simply move 10-15 yards away from the pillar when it spawns and use roots, knockbacks + slows to delay their progress to you while the three aoe dps annihilate them. (10m, 25 will require 7-9 aoe classes)

Neopite
05-18-2011, 08:33 AM
We're working on this in 10m and we use 3 at range (the add tank, a resto druid, and a dk kiter). That said, how are people avoiding Magmaw melee'ing random targets? It really is driving us nuts.

We had a 14% attempt, but couldn't get back to that afterwards due to him randomly melee'ing a dps right after an exposed head.

This is typically happenning when the MT does not move back in time in melee range. Mangled tanks goes nuking the Exposed Head as well, than when Magmaw head is up again the priority target as per threat is not in melee range so he picks the 2nd highest threat person.

Try to instruct your tank to move back to tanking position earlier, shortly before the headbanging ends should solve your issue.

Giliandrix
05-18-2011, 08:35 AM
Have the tank in position 2-3 seconds before the head comes back up. DBM has a timer for it. Also when Magmaw becomes targetable again, the tank must taunt immediately.

Outbackjack
05-18-2011, 08:36 AM
This is typically happenning when the MT does not move back in time in melee range. Mangled tanks goes nuking the Exposed Head as well, than when Magmaw head is up again the priority target as per threat is not in melee range so he picks the 2nd highest threat person.

Try to instruct your tank to move back to tanking position earlier, shortly before the headbanging ends should solve your issue.

It also helps immensely to taunt Magmaw (not the Exposed Head, wait for Magmaw proper to actually become targetable again) immediately after the Exposed Head phase has ended. This eliminates the chance that his attention will wander over to another melee target.

Giliandrix
05-18-2011, 08:44 AM
It also helps immensely to taunt Magmaw (not the Exposed Head, wait for Magmaw proper to actually become targetable again) immediately after the Exposed Head phase has ended. This eliminates the chance that his attention will wander over to another melee target.

It's not really a chance, you won't have aggro on him unless you taunt, and he will melee someone else that has threat higher than you (which is everyone) that is in melee range.

Fetzie
05-18-2011, 09:02 AM
Being mangled and jumping up to chain Magmaw resets those players' threat levels.

Spam this macro when the head phase ends and you will immediately taunt Magmaw when he is attackable again


/targetexact Magmaw
/cast Taunt (or whatever your taunt is called)

Darksend
05-18-2011, 03:56 PM
It's not really a chance, you won't have aggro on him unless you taunt, and he will melee someone else that has threat higher than you (which is everyone) that is in melee range.


It also helps immensely to taunt Magmaw (not the Exposed Head, wait for Magmaw proper to actually become targetable again) immediately after the Exposed Head phase has ended. This eliminates the chance that his attention will wander over to another melee target.


Have the tank in position 2-3 seconds before the head comes back up. DBM has a timer for it. Also when Magmaw becomes targetable again, the tank must taunt immediately.

This is a very common misconception. The exposed head phase is not a threat reset, only being picked up is. The best way to handle it much more efficiently and never risk anyone being meleed after it comes back up and that is by having one tank eat every mangle.

I the MT pull and tank it until the first mangle. 10 seconds before the first mangle the offtank taunts takes the mangle. My threat from before will carry over. So when the exposed head phase ends tank 2 has the debuff and I as the MT still have the most threat on the boss.

So really, it is much much much better to taunt BEFORE the head even goes down not after.

Hempz
05-19-2011, 02:35 PM
Just had a question about this encounter. It seems like our MT is taking hits from anywhere between 130-175k at what would seem like random times. The damage is not mitigated at all either. When I looked through our Logs from the raid, as well as some logs from other guilds, it seems like the big hits are coming right after a Lava Spew. Can anyone confirm or deny that this is the case, and if so, is the best way to deal with the damage to be ready with big heals on the MT after a Lava Spew or try to do some kind of CD rotation?

Darksend
05-19-2011, 02:39 PM
Just had a question about this encounter. It seems like our MT is taking hits from anywhere between 130-175k at what would seem like random times. The damage is not mitigated at all either. When I looked through our Logs from the raid, as well as some logs from other guilds, it seems like the big hits are coming right after a Lava Spew. Can anyone confirm or deny that this is the case, and if so, is the best way to deal with the damage to be ready with big heals on the MT after a Lava Spew or try to do some kind of CD rotation?

Most likely lava spew has nothing to do with it.

When he picks the tank up, he puts a debuff on them called mangled. Lasts 2 minutes? I think and increases damage taken by 50%

Hempz
05-19-2011, 02:42 PM
Most likely lava spew has nothing to do with it.

When he picks the tank up, he puts a debuff on them called mangled. Lasts 2 minutes? I think and increases damage taken by 50%

Yeah I'm fairly certain it has nothing to do with the mangle, here's a few examples from the log.

[21:59:13.344] Magmaw Lava Spew Macoun 19145 (R: 5318)
[21:59:13.375] Magmaw hits Macoun 130163


[22:00:44.453] Magmaw Lava Spew Macoun 17435 (R: 4843)
[22:00:44.484] Magmaw hits Macoun 136062

[22:03:52.174] Magmaw Lava Spew Macoun 17380 (R: 4828)
[22:03:52.203] Magmaw hits Macoun 130401

[23:09:31.343] Magmaw Lava Spew Macoun 19552 (A: 2337, R: 2702)
[23:09:31.375] Magmaw hits Macoun 173531

Edit: I know that it's not possible to tell from the post here how far into the encounter we were, but I can assure you he was gibbed by a melee attack before a Mangle would happen, in the early part of the fight at least once or twice.

Fetzie
05-19-2011, 02:47 PM
170k?

I have taken 90k hits (with the mangle debuff) unblocked without a cooldown up before, but your guy is taking double that. He doesn't even do that kind of damage to melee dps that take an errant hit before my taunt lands (about 100k w/o the ArP debuff).

I see a single swing with a block for more than 100k in my log from last night

[20:37:14.937] Magmaw hits Fetzie 73519 (B: 51090)

and a single unblocked swing above 120

[20:38:48.125] Magmaw hits Fetzie 121819

the rest are below or just above 100k total, for example

[20:40:30.937] Magmaw hits Fetzie 52180 (B: 36261)
[20:40:34.468] Magmaw hits Fetzie 59305 (B: 41212)

Hempz
05-19-2011, 02:58 PM
Yeah that's why I'm curious if anyone else has noticed this or anything, maybe they're using a CD to prevent the extra damage? I looked at the Vodka Log from their H Magmaw kill last night and saw something similar..

[21:28:36.827] Magmaw Lava Spew Chowmein 16234 (A: 1494, R: 7598)
[21:28:36.827] Magmaw Lava Spew Grafarion 19719 (R: 5478)
[21:28:37.672] Magmaw hits Grafarion 111927

170k is a lot different than 120, but maybe they were anticipating it and had a CD used?

Fetzie
05-19-2011, 03:00 PM
The boss has no mechanic that would allow him to do double the damage a mangled target would normally get. I have killed the boss 4 or 5 times and spent quite a few attempts on him and can say with 100% certainty that I have never taken a hit above 130k.

The normal swing is about 70k, the normal swing with mangle seems to be about 120k.

Hempz
05-19-2011, 03:08 PM
When you took the 120k or the 70k with 50k block did you have the Mangled debuff? If not can you tell if it was after a Lava Spew or just sometimes he hits harder?

Fetzie
05-19-2011, 03:16 PM
yes I did have the mangle debuff. Yes it was directly after a lava spew hit, however the boss is pretty much always doing a spew. I also have some 100k total swings as much as 8 seconds after a lava spew.

[20:38:51.812] Magmaw Lava Spew Fetzie 12154 (R: 7235)
[20:38:52.328] Magmaw hits Fetzie 41026 (A: 7054, B: 33412)
[20:38:55.656] Magmaw hits Fetzie Dodge
[20:38:58.671] Magmaw hits Fetzie 52233 (B: 36298)
[20:39:03.875] Magmaw hits Fetzie Dodge
[20:39:06.906] Magmaw hits Fetzie Miss
[20:39:09.921] Magmaw hits Fetzie 56782 (A: 1987, B: 40840)

As far as I can tell there is nothing wonky with how the boss behaves after a lava spew.

Hempz
05-19-2011, 03:21 PM
From the pull when our tank was hit for 173k..

[23:08:27.625] Magmaw's Mangle fades from Macoun
[23:09:31.343] Magmaw Lava Spew Macoun 19552 (A: 2337, R: 2702)
[23:09:31.375] Magmaw hits Macoun 173531
[23:09:41.812] Macoun afflicted by Mangle from Magmaw

So you can see my confusion as this hit was clearly in between the Mangle debuff.

Fetzie
05-19-2011, 03:24 PM
that mangle fading is probably the "chewing" stopping, the 50% armor debuff does not fade off unless you change the tank.

Hempz
05-19-2011, 03:40 PM
It looks like I wasn't searching for the debuff properly, but our MT did have the Sweltering Armor debuff when he was hit for 170k. So thanks for your help with that, unfortunately, I still don't know why our tank would be hit for 170k and you were hit for 120k :(.

[23:08:27.625] Macoun afflicted by Sweltering Armor from Macoun
[23:09:02.984] Magmaw Lava Spew Macoun 19552 (A: 2337, R: 2702)
[23:09:03.171] Magmaw hits Macoun 173531
[23:09:04.968] Macoun's Sweltering Armor fades from Macoun

Mslduth
06-01-2011, 01:00 PM
Heroic Magmaw (10m)
Group:
T: Pally / Pally / Warrior
H: Druid / H.Priest / H.Pally
D: A.Warrior / MM.Hunter / A.Mage / F. Druid

First off, let me say, that we are probably not ready for this boss. We have only attempted and downed Halfus on heroic mode. However, we decided to make an attempt on this boss last night for the heck of it.

That being said, we noticed a couple things. It appears that even with having 3 people at range, meteors were still striking our melee group. We decided to put all "ranged" classes at range (A.Mage / MM.Hunter / Warrior). The warrior tanked the worms. When we did this, unless we were just really lucky, it appeared the meteors stopped hitting melee altogether.

Another thing we kept running into:
I was tanking Magmaw until Mangled. Once I got eaten, our feral druid would immediately get hit for 170k damage. What's the best way to go about avoiding this? And also, we are tank swapping the adds for boss. The other prot pally is taunting Magmaw when he comes back up and i'm tanking the 2 adds (always have 2 at the end of the head grounding phase). They die relatively quick with our DPS, though.

The problem we run into is healing - It is just so much damage going around to everyone that the healers can't keep up, and they are healing for around 11-14k HPS.

Any help is appreciated - And yes, we know that we shouldn't do Magmaw 2nd :-P Just didn't want to clear BW:D since it's still apart of our regular raid week, as we have only downed Nefarian once.

Thanks in advance,
~Mslduth

*Quick Edit* - Most attempts land us around 70% or so after first ground phase. Then it goes downhill.

Fetzie
06-01-2011, 01:11 PM
We did Magmaw second :)

I see you are using three tanks, correct? You don't need that :) You really don't need the third tank which is presumably there to take the boss so your MT doesn't get hit while his armor is reduced.

What we do is have our DK spec frost and kite the worms, our warrior tanks the skeletons and I tank the boss. You could either get the hunter to specc SV or your mage specc frost or fire to kite the worms, and tell one of your tanks to specc dps.

You avoid melee taking swings by telling them to not stand in melee range of the boss when mangle begins and the head phase ends.

If your group is taking too much damage it is probably because they are taking damage they should be avoiding.

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qITwupHKQbE) is a video of one of our magmaw heroic kills from a while back (I think our second of third kill). Maybe it will answer more questions.

Mslduth
06-01-2011, 01:41 PM
Our 3rd tank tanks the worms...Don't see a point in kiting them and losing a DPS when a tank can just tank them, controlling them easily and still losing a DPS. Seems a bit screwed up that melee can't stand in melee range to avoid being insta-gibbed? And the group isn't taking anymore damage than is going out...so, it's weird. Maybe the healers just weren't prepared for the amount of healing required, but it was quite rough, that's for sure.

klausi
06-01-2011, 02:02 PM
Don't see a point in kiting them and losing a DPS when a tank can just tank them
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/lylhs3uqxzy5yt7h/details/7/?s=803&e=1242
The world's highest ranked warrior tank takes another 37% damage from tanking and killing the parasites, that's additional 6.7k dps taken that needs to be healed. He can counter that to some point with using his victory rushs but you should notice that
a) they only use two tanks for this and killing the constructs with three ranged dps
b) 54k taken rdps, discount dk+warrior self healing and it's still an average of almost 15k hps required

We just use a hunter for the larvae (specced for either aoe slow with multishot as MM or just spread serpent sting as SV, killing them in about 10 seconds each time), no parasitic infection that needs to be healed and your melee can assist on the skeletons. Hps required? Only about 12k per healer.

Mslduth
06-01-2011, 03:09 PM
Thank you very much for this. Will bring this up to our guild officers for future attempts. Now to find the huntards / mages / DK's we feel most comfortable with performing said role :-P

Zellviren
06-02-2011, 01:56 AM
We actually put a proper night in on this yesterday and killed it with less problems than we experienced previously with our sporadic "let's give it a go lol" efforts.

Tanks: Blood death knight and Protection warrior.
Healers: Holy priest, Restoration druid and Restoration shaman.
DPS: Survival hunter, Retribution paladin, Affliction warlock, Shadow priest and Feral druid.

The key to this, we found, was getting the balance of the DPS right and (unfortunately) this is going to be the same for every single raid because I can't possibly tell how good your damage dealers are. However, should you spend a few wipes getting to grips with that then you'll find the fight a hell of a lot smoother.

Here's the set up:

With the exception of the hunter and the resto druid, everyone is in melee range. The DK tanks Magmaw throughout, with no switching, while the warrior tanks the constructs. The hunter deals purely with the parasites and the druid heals both her and himself while targeting the melee group with Efflorescence. The Holy priest concentrates on the Magmaw tank, helped by the shammy who concentrates on the Protection warrior and the raid. Having everyone grouped up helps with this significantly. Any mix of healers/tanks should be okay, but I'd personally use a paladin or DK on Magmaw (self healing when being eaten) and try to avoid using a Holy paladin.

So long as everyone is tight on the edge of Magmaw's fissure, pillars will only ever target the hunter or the druid. The exception to this is that it will occasionally target the warrior when he comes out to pick up the construct. This is a nuisance, but can be mitigated by good timing with pillars and our hunter is also very good and misdirected pretty much all of them. All told, though, I cannot stress this enough; keeping tight to the edge of the fissure is the key to avoiding pillars in the melee. Alas, on previous nights we've found that our 2nd raiding hunter has been a bit of a liability due to her dead zone and the problem almost disappeared in her absence.

The key for us was the right allocation of DPS to the constructs so that they went down in a timely fashion. In our case, we designated the Shadow priest, warlock and paladin to DPS them down and found that this kept them very much in line. The Feral targeted Magmaw throughout, until he neared 30% and we wanted to get a head phase burn. Essentially, we were seeing constructs drop to around 30% at worst before another spawned, and the construct tank should be clear on what he wants targeted for the head phase. For the most part, you want everyone on the head when it's down and you should only ever be otherwise if you already have two constructs up when it starts.

So long as you're keeping up with the healing, Magmaw will be below half health relatively quickly. You want to push him to in and around 35% and wait for the next head phase for the final burn with all personal cooldowns blown, including Bloodlust/Heroism/Ancient Hysteria. At this point, everyone spreads out and continues to burn away the last of his health. There will still be parasite spawns, but the Protection warrior now picks these up and uses cooldowns to survive the damage. It's likely you'll have a construct up (we had two) and these should also be ignored. If you have a raid wall (Divine Guardian and Spirit Link Totem is best), activate it and finish him off.

We got excited and forgot the raid wall, got surprised with the parasite spawn and suffered the usual excitement with a final phase burn and near-kill... Yet still finished him off with a near-death Heroic Leap which saw an undead carcass die in mid air for great justice. As a quick note, I should also say that we saw none of these bizarre swings of over 170k and we didn't plan around errant melee strikes on the raid; we figured it's not supposed to happen at all, but only happened rarely so it wasn't worth changing things up for.

Fundamentally, this fight is all on five people; your Magmaw tank has to mitigate as much damage as he possibly can, your three healers have to be up to it and your kiter needs to be on the ball. Tips if you choose to use a hunter would include two things:

1) Traps are your friend. Ours used macros to ensure they were always up when she needed them, but please don't ask what those macros were..
2) Don't try to kill each wave before the next one. By kiting, they WILL die off eventually and you shouldn't feel pressured to kill them - just stop them killing you.

All told, this fight isn't bad at all once you realise what's causing pillars in the melee group and start killing constructs as efficiently as possible. Our composition definitely helps, but I don't think you really need a specific one to complete this. It's more a question of perfecting the plan than perfecting the execution, as there is a bit of leeway for personal errors throughout.
Good luck. :)

Fetzie
06-02-2011, 04:25 AM
In ten man, phase two begins at 12 million hp. If the head comes down at around 42% you will need to call a complete damage stop at 35% otherwise dots will push Magmaw into P2 prematurely. You can only safely push the boss below 12m life when the head is on the ground to avoid nef shooting shadowbolts at you.

Zellviren
06-02-2011, 05:07 AM
In ten man, phase two begins at 12 million hp. If the head comes down at around 42% you will need to call a complete damage stop at 35% otherwise dots will push Magmaw into P2 prematurely. You can only safely push the boss below 12m life when the head is on the ground to avoid nef shooting shadowbolts at you.
I tend to have percentages showing during combat, as I find that simpler to manage - so thanks for that clarification. :D

Incidentally, here's our log for the kill (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-o3bm1f2daznvz2xp/sum/damageDone/?s=2631&e=3106) - I find it to be pretty much on target in most respects and I doubt we're exceptional in any meaningful way.

Kemanorel
06-05-2011, 11:16 AM
This is one of very few fights in which my hunter's minimum range didn't really affect me.

Last kill we had 5 hunters in our 25m. I volunteered (by whisper) to move into melee to save on the healing needed at range. At first I tried the "in and out" strategy but after a mistake in timing killed us all, I found a decent melee hunter h magmaw strat:

http://bossblueprint.com/php/get.php?img=BCvD2PwzW (http://bossblueprint.com/view.php?img=BCvD2PwzW)

What makes this work is that since I am only targeting Exposed Head and the Constructs, standing in melee range of magmaw means three things:

-The only thing I cannot effectively shoot is Magmaw, who I am not supposed to be shooting until the final phase in any case.

-I was able to increase awareness and DPS since the only major mechanic I was worried about was Massive Crash

-Keeping Magmaw in melee range means I can keep the 20% damage reduction buff up almost the whole fight until the final push.

So, to any hunters who are having issues at range, or raid leaders who have "dead hunter syndrome," there is not any real reason that they can't go in melee range.