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View Full Version : The Weekly Marmot - Gear vs Skill



Lore
03-22-2011, 03:31 PM
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Therec
03-22-2011, 03:55 PM
Random comment but does anyone else notice the dipping sauce packets behind Lore move as the video progresses. It's like the unicorn stacks them up to eat out of them and then knocks them away after he's done.

mojusk
03-22-2011, 04:17 PM
lol yea, it nomnoms the hot n sour sauce an knocks em over at 10:15 :)
i thought it only needed hugs n cuddles

lol napoleon gfto of russia noob!

edit: stacks em at 3:45

Sfr528
03-22-2011, 04:49 PM
I'm sorry, but WF raiding guilds are WF raiding guilds because they have no lives until they are done with the current tier. Not every top end raiding guild has players that have the ability to raid 70 hours a week. I agree its not gear that is winning the battles, and that it takes a lot of skill, but to put it bluntly; having the ability to put your life on hold for extended periods of time helps a great deal.

On a side note, I actually found it hilarious that these guilds that raid obscene hours a week were crying that blizzard put in to much challenging content. It's almost as if they don't have the capacity to not raid such a ridiculous amount of time a week.

Health first, WF second... Some gamers really make us look like basement dwellers. And people wonder why I hate to admit that I am WOW player.

Bovinity
03-22-2011, 04:53 PM
And people wonder why I hate to admit that I am WOW player.

That's a personal problem. Don't walk around embarassed that you have a hobby.

Mangea
03-22-2011, 05:33 PM
The new background looks great Lore. Did you move to a new place or just refurbish where you were?

Krenian
03-22-2011, 07:17 PM
How much McDonalds do you actually eat Lore...cause that seems excessive..lol

Katzazi
03-23-2011, 03:06 AM
I would have liked it, if you would have addressed one kind of "skill" that's not related directly with the numbers you are able to produce. Sure you said something like this about players in world first guilds, but I think it's relevant at more or less every level. That's the skill to react to encounter specialities and to avoid dmg taken. With the exception of tanks, some item upgrades does not help you much in this regard. You have to jump multiple item levels (like 333 green -> purple) to let gear let you ignore those up to a point. At least with current encounter designs.

And honestly, if you have to chose between someone, who has minimum gear for the content but knows to react and someone with much better gear but who cannot manage to react to stuff and constantly dies or blows up your raid if he is marked for special abilites, there is no question who you should take. Even if there are big dps differences between both.

However if you don't know the people applying for your PUG and can watch their gear this gear cannot tell you the skill level of the player. But it can give you some hints. Like, if the gear is treated at all (gems, reforgings, enchants) and if it's done optimial. If that's the case the player probably knows the best rotation for that spec, too. And if the player has already attained some gear out of the raids you want to enter, you know that he at least know the basics of the encouters and that he was present at some kills. So he was not so bad that he was kicked and he was not as bad that he was such a hinderance that the group could not carry him through the content. You don't know stuff like this about the player who has no gear from said content.

Mačl
03-23-2011, 04:35 AM
I'm sorry, but WF raiding guilds are WF raiding guilds because they have no lives until they are done with the current tier. Not every top end raiding guild has players that have the ability to raid 70 hours a week. I agree its not gear that is winning the battles, and that it takes a lot of skill, but to put it bluntly; having the ability to put your life on hold for extended periods of time helps a great deal.

On a side note, I actually found it hilarious that these guilds that raid obscene hours a week were crying that blizzard put in to much challenging content. It's almost as if they don't have the capacity to not raid such a ridiculous amount of time a week.

Health first, WF second... Some gamers really make us look like basement dwellers. And people wonder why I hate to admit that I am WOW player.

I had to full quote this because it is a common misconception.
The world first guilds operate differently. When new content comes out on PTR/Life they'll go into super crunch mode. For perhaps two weeks. Maybe longer, but in that ballpark. They are starting from scratch. They have no guides. They don't have hearsay. They are the first.
If you want to raid with them you will have to have 100% comittment for the super crunch mode time. They can't change out players during that time or it WILL cost them the first kill.
They will do hardmodes in gear that wouldn't even get you into a normal mode PUG. They don't have the time to farm everything beforehand. Or it WILL cost them the first kill.

Once they have beaten the content they can clear it in half of the time a reasonably progressed guild takes. They do not raid each day between new content.

If you want to raid with them then they do ask you if you can give them 100% comittment for the super crunch mode time. That's the first thing they'll ask you. They want to get to know you better so they can see if you can actually give them 100% of your time during that phase. Skill is a matter of training and gear is easily acquired. Especially if the raid is already decked out. 100% comittment for a couple of weeks is the really tricky stuff.

I have this pet theory that at least 25% of the WoW player base would be fit enough to get into a WF guild. All they'd need to do is swallow down their pride and try to actually understand and learn about things. Skill is always thrown in as something magical, mystical when it actually is not. WoW is not and never will be something were Joe Schmoe is unable to compete. It's not as harsh as athletics where even with huge amounts of training only a select few are able to become that good. WoW is pretty lenient in that respect.

Skill and equipment required is only a matter of time. You can acquire both.
But the 100% comittment for a couple of weeks is the hard bit.

And that was the major critisism WF guilds had with Cata raid content at release. It was too much so it took more than a couple of weeks crunchmode to beat.

It's the second tier guilds that pretty much raid all the time. Mostly due to scheduling problems where you basically need a month until you have all your raiders trained for the content due to rotating. It takes them longer to gear up due to a bigger player base. They have more players and more competition for the positions and therefore infinitely more drama. They simply need more time to get things done and that's why they have to raid 24/7.

Just a pet peeve of mine. Sorry for the rant. I deeply admire people in WF guilds. And I deeply admire people who can keep a second tier guild from imploding.

Mačl
03-23-2011, 04:52 AM
Of course that WF QQ got ignored.

There are not many people playing WoW who have MAJOR issues with squirrels in the game because they had been brutally savaged and traumatized by one as a child. Yet there are more people with squirrel issues in the game than people who are in WF guilds.

So the blizz response to the WF QQ basically was:
Yes, we can see how this is a problem for you.
Issue closed.

Rightfully so.

Uranos7
03-23-2011, 06:16 AM
I believe skill is alwyas greater than gear.

Here is one of the anecdotes lore was talking about. (lol)

Went through 3 tanks with epic items in thier gear in H HoO who didn't make it to the first boss then the forurth tank was wearing blues with empty gem sockets and not only was he easier to heal but we finished it without another wipe.

So it doesn't really matter how much gear you have if your bad your "bad"; and if your good your gonna be at least "ok" even wearing greens.

Katzazi
03-23-2011, 09:27 AM
I believe skill is alwyas greater than gear.

No, that's not true. At least some of your raid need to have a minimum level of gear to be able to do stuff. There is a maximum you can do with your skill for a given set of gear. If this maximum is lower than what you need to beat the encounter gear matters more than skill. Tanks have to be able to survive a given number of hits somehow. You have to beat the enrage counter somehow and your healers can only heal so much before going oom over a given set of time. But the minimum level of gear you need for a specific encounter is probably lower than what most people would expect.

Predakhan
03-23-2011, 09:28 AM
Lore is a baller? ;p

Bovinity
03-23-2011, 09:31 AM
No, that's not true. At least some of your raid need to have a minimum level of gear to be able to do stuff. There is a maximum you can do with your skill for a given set of gear. If this maximum is lower than what you need to beat the encounter gear matters more than skill. Tanks have to be able to survive a given number of hits somehow. You have to beat the enrage counter somehow and your healers can only heal so much before going oom over a given set of time. But the minimum level of gear you need for a specific encounter is probably lower than what most people would expect.The "minimum level" is ridiculously low for the most part. If you're seriously working on progression and you're wiping, it's almost never a result of your gear because even heroic mode raids in T11 are doable in pretty darn weak gear.

Scarla
03-23-2011, 09:50 AM
I believe skill is alwyas greater than gear.

Here is one of the anecdotes lore was talking about. (lol)

Went through 3 tanks with epic items in thier gear in H HoO who didn't make it to the first boss then the forurth tank was wearing blues with empty gem sockets and not only was he easier to heal but we finished it without another wipe.

So it doesn't really matter how much gear you have if your bad your "bad"; and if your good your gonna be at least "ok" even wearing greens.

I think you must not have watched the whole video. One of the main points he makes is that there is a BASIC level of skill that is required no matter what. There's no accounting for people in purples who don't know how to gem, enchant, and reforge those purples. Or who are only wearing them BECAUSE they're purple. And if your tank doesn't know the basics of his class -- how to taunt mobs so that your dps aren't dying, for example -- then yes, it's going to be bad. These are all basic fundamentals of playing a character. It's when you get beyond that basic level that gear vs. skill matters. Of course you're going to run into bads in pug 5 mans, that's pretty much a given. But that doesn't mean that the same rules apply in a guild of experienced hard mode raiders.

youintrouble
03-24-2011, 03:48 AM
The real truth is that those who cannot figure out that Fire = Bad, well, they generally spend enough time DPS'ing the dirt that they are replaced... hopefully... with a raider with more alive time.

Rowdy
03-25-2011, 06:06 AM
skill is always greater than gearAbsolutely true. How many players are there, that are good enough to utilize more than 90% of their potential? Hardly any in the grand scheme of things (I don´t like making up numbers, but I would say 1% or less of all players and 5% or less of the raiding-community). And that doesn´t just include DPS/HPS or damage taken, it involves movement and communication.

Sorry, Lore, but I have to disagree with you on that. Most players have the "basic things" down, that you are talking about and you make it sound as if mostly gear would separate them aftwerards. Thats just not true. There is a reason why some players kill raid-bosses with iLevel 329 with no big effort and that most people still struggle on the same bosses with iLevel 346+. And the difference in gear there is pretty big.

In PvE, skill > equipment, always - except mechanics where you have to have a certain amount of HP or something like that ofc.

Katzazi
03-25-2011, 06:40 AM
That's not quite how it is, Rowdy. If gear would not matter at all - like you are saying - than raids would not improve as much with better gear. But you are blowing through the first bosses easily after spending some weeks at later bosses in a raid-dungeon. The skill you put into those encounters does not increase much, since you are not working on those encounters anymore. But your gear does. So your performance will be increased by gear. Some special items even have a very large impact on the performance of players, like main weapons or trinkets.

And cummulated higher raid gear also makes it easier to deal with some mistakes. You may have some mana left to heal the guy standing in the fire. You may have the dps to reach the enrage counter, even when someone dies. The tank may have enough avoidance to survive even when not hitting the CD-button at the right moment.

So Lore is right when he says that both have an impact. Given a said skill level (that is much higher than the basic level Lore was describing) you would probably prefere the player decked out in purple over the one only wearing blues for your hard modes, even when you know that the purple guy sometimes (2/10 times) screws up to interrupt while the one in blue would do do it "slightly" better (1/10 times).

If skill-levels, are "near enough" gear matters, too.

Rowdy
03-25-2011, 08:06 AM
If gear would not matter at all - like you are saying - than raids would not improve as much with better gear. But you are blowing through the first bosses easily after spending some weeks at later bosses in a raid-dungeon. The skill you put into those encounters does not increase much, since you are not working on those encounters anymore. But your gear does. So your performance will be increased by gear. Some special items even have a very large impact on the performance of players, like main weapons or trinkets.Incorrect in many ways.

1. I never said that "gear would not matter at all". I just said that for virtually everyone, there is more to be gained by playing better than with just aquiring some pieces of better gear. (as long as we don´t compare an iLevel 346 character to a iLevel 372 character but rather 346 to 354 aka "blues against purple and some blues" or something in that area.)

2. We´re constantly learning. Denying that you will still make progress like getting more routine, playing more efficient and making fewer mistakes even on a boss that you already killed (several times), is simply not true.


Given a said skill level (that is much higher than the basic level Lore was describing) you would probably prefere the player decked out in purple over the one only wearing blues for your hard modes, even when you know that the purple guy sometimes (2/10 times) screws up to interrupt while the one in blue would do do it "slightly" better (1/10 times).I completely agree. My point is: for gear to matter more than skill, you have to be a pretty good player to begin with in order to utilize the potential of your upgraded gear. "Basic level of play" isn´t enough for that imo.

How much do 2-3 upgrades from 436 to 359 increase your DPS? Depending on the slots, 200-500 maybe. Thats probably 3-5% at most for a decently geared player (346 average). How many damage dealers are able to deal 95+% of their potential DPS in any given situation? Hardly any.

So as long as you are not very good already, you will always gain more by playing better than by just getting better gear.

Quinafoi
03-25-2011, 12:13 PM
@Rowdy
I think you are in agreement with Lore and just don't realize it because his definition of what are "basics" differ from your own. What one considers basic, others may consider more advanced. Common sense isn't common afterall (which is why people stand in fire).

Simply put, the vast majority of people in the game do not have the basics, which primarily comes down to research and practice. How to play your class spec effectively. And improving this is what Lore was discussing to get to that first tier. The basic skills are the top priority at low levels of performance. Gear becomes a higher priority at mid levels of performance. And at the peak, advanced skill is all that matters because gear is either limited by time spent or already at its limit (you could have only got so much gear already and couldn't have gotten more).

Đarthvadér
03-25-2011, 12:45 PM
I would just like to make a quick note: God did not get rid of Adam and Eve because of their gear score (maybe)...

it was they were ninja looters and stole God epic trinket!!

then they got g-kicked ...