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Morbíd-Zul'jin
03-21-2011, 02:56 PM
been playing with my gear and chants and gems and just cant seem to keep 8% hit and have my avoidance stats hit 72.4% (before shield block 25% is added) and still have a decent amount of stamina for my raid heals to "have more flexibility". will have enough VP for the 359 pants in 2 days also. hoping for some suggestions.


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/zuljin/morb%C3%ADd/simple

Loganisis
03-21-2011, 03:10 PM
You're running normals. At a minimum, you don't need any XP. You can reforge any XP you have into Mastery and then (dodge/parry) if it already has mastery.

Unless you're on interrrupt duty you don't need hit (and when 4.1 drops, you won't need hit at all since pummel won't miss).

In Hard Modes you may need to increase expertise some, but not in normal mode, and you'll have the gear to stay at 72.4+

***

You're also looking at stamina all wrong. Unlike wrath when you had to have stamina to survivie huge hits, the hits aren't as big. Having 170k stamina and taking more full 100k hits (so only armor reduces it) doesn't give healers more flexaiblity, it makes them have to heal with bigger heals.

Maxing out dodge/parry/block does mean more total damage, but in smaller bits, allowing healers to more effiicent heals and then only use CDs for mechanics, not for bad hit strings where you take 3 full unmitagated hits in a row type of thing.

***

Your enchants look good. Gems though:

Yellow/Prismatic = Mastery
Red = parry/mastery
blue = mastery/stamina

And only gem for tanking bonuses, not for DPS (Expertise/hit/haste/str), if it has a +10 exp bonus, pure mastery is the best way to go.

You have 1/2 in Blood and Thunder - this is terrible. Either put 2/2 in it to make sure you rend passed around or take the point out and put it elsewhere, because you're going to end up relying on it being there and it may not be (I think it calculates individually for each target, so just because the target you're looking at has it refreshed, not all may).

Personally, if you're looking now at a more raid-centric build - I'd take the points out of gag order and thunderstruck. Put one in B+T and 3 in Deep Wounds for maximum threat.

****

It's antedotal, but I run with .64% hit and 3 expertise (racial) and haven't had a problem yet in normals. Now, I'll have to see how Hard Modes go as I wait for my chance as an initiate.

Morbíd-Zul'jin
03-21-2011, 03:34 PM
i am on interrupt duty at times...(dps likes to watch their meters ya know) so its nice to not depend on em.. so less than 8% hit kinda bothers me since taunts/interrupts might miss. plus i thought warriors needed 26 exp so bosses cant dodge our hits/taunts/interrupts.

Morbíd-Zul'jin
03-21-2011, 06:14 PM
ok... so i changed some gems, reforged away from hit/expertice to MASTERY, and avoidance is now 76.91% before shield block.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...%C3%ADd/simple (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/zuljin/morb%C3%ADd/simple)

unbuffed: 10.18 dodge 13.59 parry 53.14 block (since mastery is now almost 22%) and only 147k hp

using old trusty [flask of the north] and [battle shout] instead of commanding shout, stats jump to:

11.26 dodge 14.24 parry same block (so now my avoidance is up to 78.64%)

question is: can i actually get away with holding agro with only 2.33%hit (not 8%- looks like im gonna miss alot now) and 3%crit and 16exp ?

Crittable
03-21-2011, 08:05 PM
(Solely judging off of the numbers that you just wrote in your post, not looking at armory)

You're only going to miss 5.67% of the hits. That's not much, and yes, you can hold agro if you are following any sort of priority system (even the Reev system of pushing what lights up next). You'll be landing around 94.33% of your hits (not calculating dodges and parries since you aren't expertise capped... maybe take another 2% away). On those hits, with vengeance adding over 20k attack power, and your stance adding even more threat, you should hold agro. Sometimes it gets a little hairy when your first 5 abilities miss, but that's a very rare occurrence and that's why god made taunts.

Also, if I recall correctly, taunts no longer miss. You shouldn't have to worry about that, just interrupts for the time being until they change that with 4.1.

klausi
03-21-2011, 08:41 PM
11.26 dodge 14.24 parry same block (so now my avoidance is up to 78.64%)
Don't forget about your 5% miss :) Reaching that magical 77.4% (combined dodge, parry, block, miss) is rather easy to be honest and you should be able to reach it in blues.

If you're running 10s and you tend to not bring rogue/hunter/druid you'll have to adjust from this 0 hit/expertise on the long run (read: when your dps starts to deal serious damage) unless your dps want to always wait for half a minute or even more until vengeance finally kicked in. But before you consider upping your offensive ratings ask yourself what else you can do to win the tps race. Are you hitting the correct buttons? In time? Is your ui build around tanking so you can get most out of sword&board proccs and your omen isn't buried below a huge tooltip window?

Loganisis
03-21-2011, 09:13 PM
If you're on interrupt duty, 8% is completely valid (and pyrium weapon chain on your weapon since the weapon enchant is the weakest). So keep the hit at 8% if you're on interrupt duty.

The hit to mastery was only if you weren't on interrupt duty.

***

To make it clear, currently Taunts do not miss. And in 4.1 interrupts will not miss. So after 4.1 hit becomes like expertise, solely for threat.

***

Your understanding of hit/expertise is also not clear.

Base, you have an 8% chance for the boss to dodge your attacks.
Base, your attacks have a 6.5% chance of the boss dodging your attack when you're in front of him (which is going to be most of the time you're actively tanking)
Base your attacks have a 14% chance of the boss parrying your attack when you're in front of him.

If you're on interrupt duty you should have 8% hit.

26 expertise removes dodge from the table, so your attacks (not taunts or interrupts) will not be dodged.
56 expertise removes parry from the table, so your attacks (not taunts or interrupts) will not be parried.

26 exeprtise is considered the cap for melee because when attack from behind Parry is automatically removed from the table, but tanks, attacking from the front, must still contend with it. 26 expertise is no a 'cap' for tanking - but it's also not needed.


****

Finally, can you hold aggro with only 3% hit and 16 expertise, even in the beginning?

Yes. DPS might have to slow down a little, but if you use your hardest hitting abilities right off the bat and have a good rotation (that means your charge into a boss would look something like this:
0.0 (start) Heroic Throw + Charge + Shield Block
1.5 Shield Slam
3.0 Concussive Blow
4.5 Shockwave
6.0 Rend
<rotation> And of course, heroic strikes as rage allows, you shouldn't have too much of a problem holding aggro even if one of those misses.

Pre-potting with a Golemsblood potion (1200 str for 25 seconds) will give you an extra 2640 attack power after Kings, which will help too if you just need that extra little umpf until vengence stacks.

I can hold aggro and I'm running .64% hit and 3 expertise, in normal modes. Hard modes changes things and I don't have any experince there, but tanks from Hard Modes say you do need more expertise (exp > Hit for threat since you remove 2% rather than 1% per rating - as you're removing dodge and parry simultaneously --- until you hit 26 exp then exp=hit). Of course Hard Mode tanks have mostly 359 gear as well, so even gearing for threat, they're still over 80% dodge/parry/block.

If you're geared well, talented well, glyphed well, and most importantly, are good on your priority system, you can hold threat, even without a hunter/rogue.

Morbíd-Zul'jin
03-22-2011, 04:05 AM
tried it all out in heroic 5 man deadmines before servers went down... me, 3 ranged guildies, and a random pug heals. i never saw healers mana bar move once...i think he fell asleep. we let him pull some agro on second boss and die ... he died with boss at 74% health.. i lasted and we downed boss... took forever for my hp bar to go down. 2.5 mins of boss fight with no heals but sword n board and enraged regen and laststand. thanks for "correcting my focus". you folks are awesome

Crittable
03-22-2011, 10:44 AM
i am on interrupt duty at times...(dps likes to watch their meters ya know) so its nice to not depend on em.. so less than 8% hit kinda bothers me since taunts/interrupts might miss. plus i thought warriors needed 26 exp so bosses cant dodge our hits/taunts/interrupts.

As Loganisis said, if you're in interrupt duty 8% is needed since interrupts are an important factor of a lot of bosses. However, if you have dps in your raids that aren't interrupting because they are trying to max out their damage, that's something that needs to be corrected. The dps are already hit capped (or should be) and are a much better choice for interrupting.

As a warrior tank, obviously I share the responsibility with my dps swapping off on certain interrupts (Maloriak has 2 things to interrupt, Arcanotron casts too quickly after an interrupt that it's not up again by that time so I switch off with my rogue, etc.). If one misses, we just eat it and do our best to continue unless someone else is quick enough to interrupt for me. But I don't ever rely on tanks to interrupt the truly important stuff when there are dps that could because of the hit issue.

Sorry for this reply. I feel that it's just a rant, but it's one of my biggest pet peaves: dps not utilizing their abilities for the good of the raid just to max out their dps and try to feel l33t.

MellvarTank
03-22-2011, 12:11 PM
Maxing out dodge/parry/block does mean more total damage, but in smaller bits, allowing healers to more effiicent heals and then only use CDs for mechanics, not for bad hit strings where you take 3 full unmitagated hits in a row type of thing.

Sorry, corrections incoming:

Maxing out Dodge and Parry DOES mean less total damage. It's called avoidance for a reason, you avoid hits.

Maxing out mastery/block smoothes out the damage you do take when you are blocking. This makes damage more predicatble and easier to heal.


26 expertise is no a 'cap' for tanking - but it's also not needed.

26 expertise is called the soft cap for tanks, not the hard cap which is 56. These are called 'caps', but the real cap for tanking is when your DPS can't go all out and you hit enrage timers.


Also: The magic number is 77.4% Dodge/Block/Parry/Miss. When you pop shield block (25% block) this puts you at 102.4% avoid/block which makes every hit you take a block. If you tally up to 72.4% including 5% miss, then you need 5% more avoid/block to be 'unhittable'.

There is no possible DPS in the game that can out-damage one of the blast nova's going off on Nefarian, so your DPS need to learn what is more important.

Loganisis
03-22-2011, 11:55 PM
Mel - yeah - screwed the pooch on dodge/parry/block where tried to condense that one too much. I was jumping from A to D in my explanation there. What you corrected was what I was trying to say, just fracked it up.

26 Expertise - I think it's a poor term to call 26 expertise for tanking because while dodge is removed from the table, you haven't 'capped' anything, not like ticks for HoTs or 26 expertise is for melee. It is the term, so maybe trying to redefine the misnomer of a term it is, isn't best since it's understood what it means. I think the more important point is understanding what happens at 26 expertise, it isn't a magical number where more is suboptimal/useless, it's the point at which it becomes equal to hit for threat.

Sometimes I wish we could efficiently re-term a lot of the terms used so they make more intutive sense.

unhittable being the worst term, but others... Once you know the theory, you know the terms, but they're not intuitive.

Crittable
03-23-2011, 04:21 PM
unhittable being the worst term, but others... Once you know the theory, you know the terms, but they're not intuitive.

Fully mitigable?

Loganisis
03-23-2011, 05:52 PM
LOL - Crit, I've brainstormed before and that's about the best term I can think of too, but I don't like it either >.<

Crittable
03-23-2011, 08:20 PM
Cause really, face it, we're not unhittable. It's not like we can say to very large bosses "na-na, you can't hit me... :-p " and get away with it. They will hit us. However, we can have a 100% change to dodge, parry, or block every single hit that the boss throws at us, but when we're blocking we're still getting hit, and that's over 3/4's my 102.4%. So we're really only 23%'ish unhittable, the majority of the time... we're fully mitigable. I think we can make it work Logan, just keep using it and it might stick, however silly that word "mitigable" sounds.

MellvarTank
03-24-2011, 03:17 PM
I would think a better term would be block capped.

Katzazi
03-24-2011, 03:49 PM
I often call it hit-immune. That indicates, that you are probably not immune to something else. And it sounds more like the "old" crit-immune and even older crush-immune. Since hit's are the next thing we want try to move off the table, it's much more about what it actually does.

Crittable
03-24-2011, 03:55 PM
I admit that block capped would be easier to say, spell, and keep a serious face when it comes up in conversation, and in a sense is saying the same thing as fully mitigable. Considering it's only the block tanks that try to reach that unhittable mark than I guess it could work. However, with both terms, there is a flaw... in order to reach that unhittable mark, it's stated to be better to be focusing on block rather than avoidance, as stated on this website many times over, but it's possible to hit that unhittable mark with focusing more on avoidance and less on block. So I really wouldn't have "capped" in the term. "Capped" is generally talking about a certain magic number of a single stat (i.e. expertise to 26, hit to 8%, spell hit to 17%, etc.) but mitigation and avoidance combined to make up that unhittable mark (the term we're contemplating renaming) is made up of 3 different stats: dodge, parry, and block (not including mastery because that ties into block).

Crittable
03-24-2011, 03:58 PM
I often call it hit-immune. That indicates, that you are probably not immune to something else. And it sounds more like the "old" crit-immune and even older crush-immune. Since hit's are the next thing we want try to move off the table, it's much more about what it actually does.

But we are getting hit. The hits that land are getting mitigated but we still are getting hit. That means that we aren't "immune" to hits, same reason we are not "unhittable". Now, crush-immune and crit-immune were possible. It was possible to be fully defense capped to not be critically hit, and I know that pallies were able to get to the crush-immune status (I never did on a warrior, so I don't know if it was possible back then).

Katzazi
03-25-2011, 02:54 AM
There were times where you could be crush-immune as a warrior, but it required very unorthodox gearing.

No you are not getting hits, you are getting blocks or avoidance.

I don't like "block-capped" because this sounds like if there would be a certain amount of block by itself that is required. But it's a combination of avoidance and block. The amount of block that contributes to this state can vary widely. (Theoretically it does not even need to be the dominating value and you want to push it off the table next.)

Loganisis
03-25-2011, 11:39 AM
I like Block Capped. It says exactly what it is, you can't block anything more because everything is already at least blocked.

Crittable
03-28-2011, 12:14 PM
But the block "cap" is relative to your avoidance. So, it's not really a fixed cap. It's a constantly moving cap.

Loganisis
03-28-2011, 12:50 PM
But the block "cap" is relative to your avoidance. So, it's not really a fixed cap. It's a constantly moving cap.

It depends on how you look at it. It is a fixed cap, in that your target is 97.4% dodge/parry/block (for non night elfs) (and the last 5% is from boss miss chance). You can't go past that, so if you hit that, you are, in effect, hard capped. It doesn't really matter how you got there, just that you are there.

Doc309
03-28-2011, 01:25 PM
but then you are better off going for more dodge/parry and less mastery...

purely hypothetical argument follows......

player one has 5% dodge, 5% parry, and 87.4% block, he says he's capped.
player two has 15% dodge, 15% parry, and 67.4% block, and she says she's capped.
player three has 15% dodge, 15% parry, and 42.5% block and says he's capped with SB.
player four has 30% dodge, 30% parry and and 37.4% block, and says she's capped.

none of them are truly "unhittable". they will all take melee damage.
but who would you rather be responsible for healing?
avoidance>mitigation. so i don't think "hard cap" really applies.

maybe "mit-capped" for the term to use????

klausi
03-28-2011, 01:36 PM
Of course it's better but upping avoidance is way harder due to dimnishing returns.

Loganisis
03-28-2011, 01:38 PM
Doc - yes. Once you hit 97.4% dodge/parry/block then the 'extra' rating is best spent on avoidance or stamina or threat, depending on what is needed. You've stated the obvious. That wasn't the point of rant against the misnomer.

****

Block capped signifies exactly what it is. The player has reached the point where they are guaranteed to at least block every incoming attack.

Mit-capped would actually be a less accurate term than block-capped, because technically damage reduction from armor is mitigation, and we're no where near the 90k armor for full mitigation capped.

Block has always been RNG mitigation, but if you ever reach the 97.4% passively, then block is now guaranteed mitigation just like armor (unless there's a specific mechanic that would decrease dodge/parry/block). So mit capped would have to include both block and armor being capped to be fully accurate.

****

There is a hard cap, it's 97.4% (95.4% for Nelfs), but there are many ways to get there (at least for pallies, and next tier for warriors too probably). I guess technically you could still stack mastery to make sure crit block = 100%, but then you're looking at the comparative values - and that's not really the point of this discussion.

****

Block capped will always mean the same thing, the players has passively guaranteed every incoming attack will be at least blocked, if not more. The exact probability of which outcome will depend on the individual's specific layout.

I'm still not in love with block capped, but I think it's the best term I've seen so far, and better than anything I've come up with.

Doc309
03-28-2011, 01:44 PM
true get there as quick as you can... get dodge/parry/block to 97.4%... ie reforge out of hit/expertise, and balance dodge and parry ratings.
but really this thread has become about "unhittable" v. "block capped"?
and i don't believe either term is technically correct.


i see your point loganisis...

Crittable
03-28-2011, 02:38 PM
yeah we sort of went off topic, but I believe the OP's questions have been answered earlier on in the thread. If there is any confusion, I'd expect to see another post asking for clarification. Until then, I enjoy this conversation :D