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Astraios
03-20-2011, 02:01 PM
Hello

I have a question about the hole mastry / parry / dogde thing.
prob. have been asked 10000 times but i cant seem to find an awenser to all i wont to know.

For a prot warrior aint Mastry what you need to focus on? keep the parry on your gear and reforge dogde to parry to get the talen "hold the Line" ?
is there a mastry cap. if yes should i go for some stamina insted ?

here is my amory link http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/dragonblight/astraios/simple

I have the trinket [Vial of Stolen Memories] should i use this insted of [Mirror of Broken Images] ?

Thanks
Astraios

nserafini
03-20-2011, 02:50 PM
Mastery trumps both dodge and parry. Never reforge mastery.

Mastery is the easiest % to get up, as all tank gear comes with it ( some In oodles ).

Behind that, because of the diminishing returns values calculated in after an attach lands, you should keep them both as close as possible. Sometimes it means turning parry into dodge thru reforging.

ironsides
03-20-2011, 03:05 PM
Let me clearify, mastery is the best stat possible, it does have a cap but you wont be reaching it this tier of content. The cap is when you have 100% chance to block. Any mastery after that would be nearly meaningless.

As for parry and dodge you do want parry higher, I am not positive when dr comes into effect, I am sure another tank will point out the exact % but until you hit that percent in parry, parry is more useful. So reforge parry when it is DRing, I have something like 17% parry and like 13% dodge or something in raid. You don't want to be 20% parry and 10% dodge because you will prolly be wasting stats at that point.

Selene
03-20-2011, 03:36 PM
DR is noticeable at 14% for Dodge and Parry. Warriors want to try to keep Parry a bit higher than Dodge, and Paladins want to keep Dodge a bit higher than Parry. Beyond that the two basically want to get as much Mastery as possible and get Dodge/Parry.

Aggathon
03-20-2011, 03:42 PM
The math I've seen says that in current gearing parry is still significantly better than dodge b/c of HTL. The minimum number I've heard is keep parry 3% higher than dodge, but it depends on what your values are actually at. I think your parry has to be 17% or more before the DRs get steep enough that dodge is better than parry despite HTL.

Paladins should keep dodge and parry as equal as possible, but warriors want more parry than dodge.

Having said that, mastery for the most part is better than both until you start to get into heroic fights and higher gear levels.

As gear levels increase and you get into heroic raid bosses, stam becomes the thing to gem for again. Bosses just hit hard, and by that point your healer's gear should be good enough again that the regen isn't really a huge deal at least as far as tank damage goes. Non-tanks avoiding avoidable damage becomes more important for healer mana than tank damage intake.

Astraios
03-21-2011, 11:03 AM
so i more or less should try aim for 17 % parry and 14 % dogde and than just get mastry. ?
thanks for the fast respons btw

Aggathon
03-21-2011, 11:15 AM
No, get mastery first. Mastery is much more important, I'm just saying that when you're deciding whether or not to reforge dodge to parry (or any other stat other than dodge to parry, like hit or expertise) parry is typically much much better than dodge until those higher levels.

Loganisis
03-21-2011, 11:17 AM
so i more or less should try aim for 17 % parry and 14 % dogde and than just get mastry. ?
thanks for the fast respons btw

o_O That's not what they said. You can't passively cap dodge+parry+block+boss miss, but you can actively cap it with shield block.

That is, when you hit Dodge + Parry + Block = 72.4%, when you use shield block, you hit 102.4% (+25% from SB and 5% boss miss chance) for it's duration. So you can go ~1/3 of the fight like this.

This has lead to the following trains of thought:

Train 1: Gear for 72.4% and then push dodge/parry for more total damage avoidance;
Train 2: Gear for 72.4% and then push hit/expertise for more threat/damage; and
Train 3: Gear for 72.4% and then keep pushing mastery to try to get dodge+parry+block as high as possible.

(and some people think about a hybrid of train 1 and train 2).

I think you'll find most of the tanks here follow train 3 - that is try to make sure you at least mitigate the most incoming attacks as possible and mastery is the best way of doing this (because the same rating of mastery will give you roughly 1.5 times the dodge or parry of the same amount of rating - so it's the most efficient way to get close to 102.4 (which is actually dodge + Parry + block = 97.4, the last 5% is from the boss miss chance).

That is - for normal modes. Hard modes - well come back when you're there :-D

So... with that in mind, for normal modes:

1. Try for as much mastery as possible (while still gemming for tanking socket bonuses); and
2 Then try to keep parry ~3% higher than dodge.

That's the Reader's Digest condensed version.

MellvarTank
03-21-2011, 11:27 AM
For hardmodes it's a hybrid of 2 and 3... >.> <.< and a 4th one that isn't listed.

But basically, what everyone has said here is accurate.

Astraios
03-21-2011, 11:31 AM
great post. thx.
my dogde is atm 9,21
my parry is 15,18
and block is 56,03

why is it that you should keep parry ~3 % higher than dogde and not more ? since we have that hold the flag ?

MellvarTank
03-21-2011, 11:35 AM
Hold the Line. I know the icon is a flag, but it has nothing to do with the talent. >.> <.<

Astraios
03-21-2011, 11:37 AM
than why only ~3 % ?

MellvarTank
03-21-2011, 11:40 AM
Hold the Line 2/2 - Increases your critical strike and critical block chance by 10% for 10 seconds following a successful parry.

So that benefit, weighted against the DRs on dodge/parry values, is why you want to keep parry roughly 3% higher than dodge. There is a lot of math behind it that was discussed in the theory and mechanics discussion in a thread called "Hold the line maths".

Astraios
03-21-2011, 12:08 PM
ahh great thx. ill go read that

Aggathon
03-21-2011, 12:40 PM
Also, the 4th train of thought for hardmodes is what I already covered and what our MT was forced to do even though his gear isn't where he should be (we haven't had a plate tank drop in 3 weeks with the exception of H-Atramedes legs, which aren't THAT good) and that's once you get to 102.4% dodge+block+parry+miss with shield block up, start gemming for stam because heroic bosses hit really hard. Atramedes clocks our tank for 80k+ sometimes when shield block is down. Until you get into heroic raids it's not really that important to gem for stam though.

klausi
03-21-2011, 11:29 PM
The better option is to start collecting two stamina trinkets and swap them in if you really need those extra hitpoints. Gemming stamina is only a gain of ~ 8.000 hitpoints at the cost of 3% block/critblock.

80-90k hits on Atramedes only happens when demoshout isn't up and it drops even further with inspiration active. If you have serious problems keeping the tank up while running let 1-2 assigned healer stand seperate from melee/ranged camp. But if you time your shieldblock between those breaths there isn't even much space for a regular double hit to land in combination with a shieldwall running 12-18s around the searing flame cast.

Halfus HC was a fight when stacking stam was important for surviving ~3-4 regular 60k+ melee hits from the drakes + meteors during roar but after the changes you don't have to worry about that. Chimaeron HC can be tricky depending on your gear status (4 piece yet?) and external cooldowns but regulary 180k hitpoints are enough for both 10s and 25s. Magmaw has been nerfed to the ground recently and it all comes down to proper cooldown usage at the time around the mangle cast. Any other hard hitters left? If you've reached Cho'gall Heroic you should be capable of dealing with worship correctly and if not another 20k hitpoints won't save you :) For crackle on Nef Hc you (and almost everybody on your raid) will want to wear the tol barad trinket at least until 4.1 arrives and we get 20% magical damage reduction on top of unhittable via shield block.