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Aliena
03-19-2011, 04:08 PM
ZNU1Yiawk7k


Hello and welcome to the Blackwing Descent Raid Guide! My name is Aliena, and in this video I'll show you all you have to know about heroic Nefarian, the final encounter in this raid instance. I'll assume that you're familiar with the normal version of this encounter and will only go over what changes for the heroic version. We defeat this encounter with 3 tanks, 6 healers and 16 DPS, but similar raid configurations may work just as well.

As usual, the encounter has three phases. In the first phase, you'll encounter Onyxia who has received a health upgrade and now sports 35 million. Nefarian himself got bumped to about 180 million and the Bone Warrior health is still irrelevant as you still kite them and don't kill them.

Your goal in phase 1 is to deal as much damage to Nefarian as you can while still minding Onyxia's Lightning Machine Timer - should it reach max, Onyxia still explodes and your raid wipes. Personally, we aim for two Electrocutes in phase 1 - so Nef is at about 75% health when phase 2 starts.

A new mechanic is introduced in phase 1 - Dominion, which mind controls about 5 random people in your raid (but does not target tanks). As soon as your raid members become mind controlled, they will start walking towards a portal that spawns. Should they reach the portal, they die. However, Dominion is a key ability to this fight. As soon as you get mind controlled, your action bar will change and you will only have two abilities. The ability on the "1" key will break the mind control immediately whereas the ability on the "2" key will give you a stacking damage buff.

Any healer that gets mind controlled should break their Dominion immediately, whereas every DPS that gets mind controlled should spam the "2"-key until they're close to their portal and then break the MC. Make sure to never touch the portal, though - it's just a plain instant death. After the mind control breaks, the players in question will get a speed buff, so make sure not to accidentally run in front of any dragon face.

Our strategy for phase 1 is to divide up our healers - 3 stay with the Onyxia tank (we usually use a druid, disc priest and holy paladin with the Onyxia tank), we send one disc priest with the add tank & the remaining two healers (typically a shaman and holy paladin) move to Nefarian's flank to heal his tank. Nef and Onyxia still need to remain 60 yards apart and the adds should still all die in the same spot (we usually hold ours close to Nef's tail). The add tank should cycle his cooldowns if necessary while tanking the adds in phase 1.

our DPS will focus Onyxia down to about 3% health and then move over to Nefarian. As mentioned, we aim for two Electrocutes in phase 1. It is extremely important to use a raid cooldown for Electrocutes as often as possible. Tanks should also use personal cooldowns such as Shield Wall for every Electrocute that they can. If all their cooldowns are on cooldown, they should ask for a Pain Suppression, Guardian Spirit or bubblesac.

In phase 1, the disc priest remaining with the Onyxia tank should make sure to put a power word: shield on everyone in his little group before an Electrocute to avoid unfortunate deaths.

To recap phase 1: Aim for two Electrocutes, and use raid cooldowns for them. Kill Onyxia before her Lightning Machine explodes. Have DPS stack up Dominion while healers should break it immediately. Divide your tanks and healers smartly.

As soon as phase 2 hits, you will want your team divided for all three pillars as per usual. Make sure each platform has plenty of interrupters and that they have a good system worked out. Phase 2 - of course - comes with a twist. Nefarian will occasionally cast a debuff on 3 random raid members called Explosive Cinders. This debuff lasts 8 seconds, and once it expires, the person in question will explode everyone in roughly an 8-yard range. If this hits any group members, they will get blasted off the platform and it'll likely result in a wipe.

To counter Explosive Cinders, everyone should be stacked in the middle of a platform. If someone on your platform or even multiple people on your platform receive the debuff, they should then move to the outside of the pillar and wait until they have 3 seconds left on Cinders. As soon as they hit 3 seconds, they should jump into the lava and swim a ways away until Cinders wears off. Then, immediately strafe back and jump back onto the platform.

Healers will need to keep an eye out on people with Cinders as they will take additional Magma damage. Interrupters will have to cover for anyone that has to deal with Cinders, so make sure to communicate. Even just one Blast Nova tick going off can easily result in a raid wipe. We do not trigger any Electrocutes in phase 2, as there's too much raid damage going out to cover the Electrocute damage at the same time. Instead, we focus down the Prototypes & make sure they die at roughly the same time.

When phase 3 triggers, we have our add tank move over to where the skeletons died. The Oynxia tank from phase 1 joins him there, just in case any adds get loose or to emergency taunt should the primary add tank die. At the start, 2 healers join them there, but we typically end up moving another 1-2 healers over to the add tank once damage starts spiking.

Our Nefarian tank pulls the dragon to the middle of the room and most of the raid will stack up on his side while the add tank kites the skeletons around the outside of the room. The Nefarian tank will rotate his dragon at the speed of the add tank so Nef never faces the add tank nor the adds and no Breath ever hits them. The rest of the raid rotates with Nef but makes sure to stay at his flank to avoid both breath and tail lash.

The add tank as per usual will want to avoid the adds getting hit by Shadowflame so they die in a timely manner and their damage buff doesn't stack up too high. Again, we aim to have a raid cooldown for every Electrocute. If you bring 2 disc priests and 1 Prot Pally, it should cover all 9 Electrocutes unless you feel you want to double up cooldowns on a certain Electrocute.

Tanks surviving Electrocutes is the absolute priority in this phase. Raid damage can be patched later, so your healers should concentrate on keeping tanks up through every Crackle. Again, if as a tank you do not have a personal cooldown available for an Electrocute, request one from another raid member. Tank deaths are about the only thing that can wipe you in phase 3. Dominion still happens in phase 3 so deal with it as you did in phase 1. Those are about all the tips I have for the heroic Nefarian encounter. I've attached full footage of one of our kills so you can see how we dealt with the various mechanics in detail!

Mitchpriest
03-20-2011, 01:24 AM
Will this phase 3 strategy work on the 25 norm encounter? As it seems to be a much better way of controlling the adds.

Darksend
03-20-2011, 04:23 AM
Right now, that entire room is bugged. Nothing mob wise paths the way its supposed to making this encounter much more difficult. In theory, you will never get hit now, even by onyxia and nef, but in reality it does not work that way and just makes the encounter harder to manage.

Basically the bug is if you never stop moving, nothing in the encounter will melee you. The problem comes when the fire is spawned, the adds are so slow, buggy, and far away with you that it is almost impossible to prevent them from hitting the fire.

To compensate for this, we now tank phase 3 up against the side and let our warrior use the entire room, instead of just being limited to running in a circle. Until this bug came in however, we also did phase 3 in the manner described. The other advantage is that all your healers are now in range of the add tank and the main tank at the same time

2 additional notes, we bring 3 disc priests and cannot cover every crackle. We also use 7 healers and the enrage timer if a DPS dies becomes a very serious concern.

Xcuse
03-20-2011, 06:13 AM
The moving thing only was the case if you actually backpaddled instead of straving / running. This, however, seems to have been hotfixed from wednesday to thursday (on Dragonmaw-EU at least) as I was able to "backpaddle-bug" the bone warriors on Wednesday but wasn't able to anymore on thursday.

Either way, good guide. We just started working on this on wednesday and are handling almost everything the same - except for the fact that if we want to trigger 2 crackles in P1 we HAVE TO kill Onyxia before the crackle cast finishes or her lightning machine will go off and wipe us. I suppose that's just our dps being lower than yours? Oh well, we've only spent like 6 hours on it and are reaching p3 every now and then.

Phase 2 is, in theory, very easy. But getting the hang of the transition into p2 right is really hard for some of the raiders... *cough*

Darksend
03-21-2011, 03:57 PM
The moving thing only was the case if you actually backpaddled instead of straving / running. This, however, seems to have been hotfixed from wednesday to thursday (on Dragonmaw-EU at least) as I was able to "backpaddle-bug" the bone warriors on Wednesday but wasn't able to anymore on thursday.

Either way, good guide. We just started working on this on wednesday and are handling almost everything the same - except for the fact that if we want to trigger 2 crackles in P1 we HAVE TO kill Onyxia before the crackle cast finishes or her lightning machine will go off and wipe us. I suppose that's just our dps being lower than yours? Oh well, we've only spent like 6 hours on it and are reaching p3 every now and then.

Phase 2 is, in theory, very easy. But getting the hang of the transition into p2 right is really hard for some of the raiders... *cough*

Good to know, we killed nef on Tuesday this week.

Also, I did not even look at phase 1 of the write-up, only 2 and 3. It is entirely possible to do phase 3 from 85-0, in fact most guilds that I have seen do it that way, it all depends on how much faith you have in your kiter.

Mukluk
03-22-2011, 03:22 AM
Great guide, one question on the difficulty. I'm in a 10man Heroic guild and we've done halfus, maloriak, chimaeron, atramedes, and just recently magmaw and conclave. Is nef a good next target? Or should we be spending time on something like omnotron next.

Xcuse
03-22-2011, 01:57 PM
Good to know, we killed nef on Tuesday this week.

Also, I did not even look at phase 1 of the write-up, only 2 and 3. It is entirely possible to do phase 3 from 85-0, in fact most guilds that I have seen do it that way, it all depends on how much faith you have in your kiter.
Well, I'm the add-tank so... I suppose they're having quite some faith in me... let's hope I don't disappoint!



Great guide, one question on the difficulty. I'm in a 10man Heroic guild and we've done halfus, maloriak, chimaeron, atramedes, and just recently magmaw and conclave. Is nef a good next target? Or should we be spending time on something like omnotron next.
On 10m Nef normal already is really hard, with heroic being another step up. I'd definately suggest doing Omnotron, Al'akir and possibly V&T (if you have a good rogue that can play Sub) after the recent nerfs first .
Just my suggestions tho - I've barely done hardmodes in 10m.

klausi
03-22-2011, 08:29 PM
and possibly V&T (if you have a good rogue that can play Sub) after the recent nerfs first
I'd really recommend waiting for 4.1 before bothering with V&T, making that fight such much easier on 10s. Same is true for Nefarian, without the awesome nerf to interrupt you'll have to bring 6 hitcapped interrupts (vs lvl 85) instead of letting your shaman/paladin healers then doing the backup job. Omnotron and Al'Akir are both solid goals for the next week(s).

Tanxor
03-28-2011, 01:55 PM
We are a grp of friends on a 9/13 10m HC guild (semi-hardcore)...and just started last night a few attempts on nef heroic. I gotta say p1 is not really a problem at all...but p2 can be a pain in the ass with all that dmg especially nef's shadow bolts..which are freaking ridiculous...hitting for 52k every 4 secs or so.

Right now our healing comp is...Resto druid, Resto shaman and disc priest. Not gonna lie to you but the resto druid has some serious problems to burst heal those 52k sometimes...any particular advice on p2 10m HC? Should we just use Tranquility or anything like that?.

Thx in advance.

klausi
03-28-2011, 02:38 PM
Unless you want to replace the druid you may have to wait for 4.1 and the changes to Nef heroic.



Nefarian's End

The damage of Shadowflame Barrage has been reduced by 15% (10-player normal and Heroic difficulty only).
The damage of Tail Lash has been reduced by 20% (10-player normal and Heroic difficulty only).



Well, what you actually can do is using 4-4-2 people on the pillars if both other healer can manage it with their mana.

Tanxor
03-30-2011, 01:30 AM
After a few more attempts...we can reach p3 easily (druid had a bad night the other day), anyways...on P3 our Kite Tank..which is a DK...seems to die every single time at around 70%...after the adds reseted...even with Icebound fortitude up the adds pretty much destroy him for some unknown reason. I came up with the idea than the offtank has to kite along the outter circle and always staying at the same side of the raid so..both tanks can be healed for every healer. Is that ok? anything else you guys think we should change?.

Thx in advance.

klausi
03-30-2011, 01:35 AM
He is dying after all adds reset once? Does he reset them again (and again.. and again)? I guess he's using AMS for every crackle and his other cooldowns to smooth out damage at lower energy rates?

Having Nef in the middle and running with the adds around him is the easiest way, your camp just moves with the body (similar to Halion) - but your camp/mt healer might have to switch side from time to time, depending on fire pathing, so you shouldn't rely on them for healing the offtank.

Saphiria
04-05-2011, 09:14 PM
My 10man group has decided to start Heroic Nefarian and join the race for server first even tho technically we're slightly under geared because not everyone is in full heroic gear . We did about and hour and half worth of attempts monday night before reset to start to get a feel for it, and we did make it to phase transition once.

DPS: priest, hunter, Rogue, warlock

Our healers include myself, the resto druid, holly pally, and a resto shaman. I'm healing the tank that is on Ony (he's a DK) the resto shaman is on the add tank (he's a warrior) and the holy pally is on tank on Nef (he's a Pally). The Tanks are getting hit really hard. We've decided that since they're getting hit really hard, that our tank is really our sole responsibility, and we're not healing anyone's tank at the same time (maybe a bad idea?) We normally wipe just around or after the second Electrocute, from what i'm assuming is that now we're placing raid heals, keeping larger heals from the tank, and the tank dies. I know from the time we got to phase 2, I was practically spamming Healing Touch on my tank, and before the Electrocute hit I rejuv/WG myself and then swiftmend myself for Efflo, and just hoping WG/Efflo will hit the people near by me. The problem with Healing Touch spamming is now I'm low on mana. Why don't I innervate myself? you might ask, because now that we are about to transition, the holy pally is oom, calling for it, and the shaman is low on mana as well because we all spammed our largest heals to make it this far.

Also, i'm worried about Phase 2, since personally, I feel like phase 2 is the hardest for me, I always need to pop tree form, and Lifebloomx3 everyone on my platform just to keep everyone up, and now we're doing heroic mode http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/smilies/frown.png

If anyone has any actual suggestions or tips or tricks or anything, that would be really awesome.

klausi
04-06-2011, 12:06 AM
We normally wipe just around or after the second Electrocute,
Why don't you just kill Onyxia and push all eletrocutes during phase 3? This way you don't have to deal with 2 drakes, 5 adds, taillash and lightning discharge all at once.

And 3 tanks, really? There's still an enrage timer you want to beat. There are several other ways to deal with the adds like kiting (you have a DK, let him specc frost), tanking (Onyxia tank can take all adds as well or have a dps with some selfcooldowns + help from other tank them) or CC.

Moophisto
04-10-2011, 08:10 AM
How many Explosive Cinders go out at a time in 10? I'm assuming one, yes? Anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with that if your interrupter gets it? We can probably manage a back up one one or may be two of the platforms, but all three may be rough.

Mukluk
04-11-2011, 09:56 AM
How many Explosive Cinders go out at a time in 10? I'm assuming one, yes? Anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with that if your interrupter gets it? We can probably manage a back up one one or may be two of the platforms, but all three may be rough.

We got server first on this on 10man last week. One cinder happens per cast in 10man phase 2 and we had 1 healer 2dps on one platform, 1 healer 2dps on another, and 1 healer 1 dps and the 2 tanks on the third. Every platform had a main interupter and a backup. The plat with the two tanks had one of our bad interupting dps (shadow priest) and if you had to jump just said something like "got cinder, joe your next interupt" etc.

Pralik
04-20-2011, 09:08 AM
Hellloooo

My guild is running 7 healers with 2 healers on the Nef tank and 5 on the Add tank for p3 and we are still having a really hard time keeping the add tank alive once the adds are about 12% energy but not so much trouble keeping him up throughout crackles. We've found the adds do much more then the crackles to us as healers and I was just curious if there was anything you could help me out with here. We normally run 2 priests 2 paladins 2 druids 1 shaman-- We've also ran this 2 Priests 3 pallys 1 druid 1 shaman, all in all we use our Sacs and pain sups when we can in a cool down rotation but I really don't think paladins using Sac is enough to mitigate much of the damage, do you recommend going with 2 pain sups and tank cool downs in a rotation with healers just burst healing the last bit b4 the resets???

Mikas
04-21-2011, 02:49 AM
guys,

whats better to use for prot warrior when tanking adds?

armor+mastery elixir or magic resistance/mastery elixir ?

or just go with stamina flask ?

klausi
04-21-2011, 06:47 AM
You'll want resistance/mastery to reduce the breath and electrocute spikes. Their physical damage output alone isn't that intimidating.

Mikas
04-21-2011, 09:40 PM
what breaths ?

I am on add tanking duty

Danksz
04-29-2011, 09:55 AM
10 man heroic nef:

is the accepted strat to push all electrocutes in phase 3? Im the ony+add tank in phase 1, and the add tank in phase 3 - and by the time the shadowflames are at 5 second intervals nef still has 35-40% health left, making it quite difficult for me.

klausi
04-29-2011, 11:08 AM
If you can't control the adds properly (= need to tank them) you'll have to push all crackles during phase 3 or the adds will gib you at around 20 stacks even with shieldwall, shieldblock and trinket up during a breath. Having only one drake breathing and tail-lashing makes phase 3 more attractive as well.

The shadowflames never come at a 5 second interval, it's always 10 seconds -> I've enough time for plant my shockwaves in between during all the fight. The only problem might be that you're running out of external cooldowns for crackle but that's less likely with the added raid shout, spirit link totem and shield block reducing magical damage as well.

uchiro
05-01-2011, 08:44 AM
Technically you can kite the adds infinitely in terms of the shadowflame casts. At it's lowest point its 10s between casts, but it feels shorter since the travel time of the flame gives you about 5s after it hits the ground before the next one is being cast because of travel time. You can indeed do all of the fight in p3, if you are kiting correctly and not moving to much on each movement so you don't run out of room.

Rowdy
05-02-2011, 09:27 AM
10 man heroic nef:

is the accepted strat to push all electrocutes in phase 3? Im the ony+add tank in phase 1, and the add tank in phase 3 - and by the time the shadowflames are at 5 second intervals nef still has 35-40% health left, making it quite difficult for me. The point is: if you want to kill Nefarian heroic, you have to be able to kite the adds well either way - even if you only need 6-7 crackles in phase 3. I donīt think its possible to mess kiting up and somehow "zerg" Nefarian down (at least not more than 10-15%). And if you figure out how to do it, it doesnīt really matter how long you have to do it.

I (Warrior), too, have to kite the adds in Phase 3 and it took me 5-6 tries to figure it out. Also they have to be positioned well in Phase 1 so they get all hit by the first blaze at once (or at least 4 of of them at once). This makes kiting them lot easier since they will all fall apart at the same time and you also can pick them up together again.

My biggest issue was our Main-Tank, a DK, pulling heal aggro from Skeletons that were resurrected across the room because of bad luck (shado blazes missing them continuesly) or a healer pulling aggro without me being in range to taunt them. Because of that my healer has been a Paladin with Righteous Fury activated, he basically always has the initial aggro. Also, DK healing doesnīt produce aggro anymore (yay!).

Maybe if you could describe, whats the problem for you, I could provide more tips.

Apart from kiting, I think it should be possible to have some crackles in Phase 2 now. The damage is laughable compared to before 4.1.

Herbnosis
05-07-2011, 06:27 AM
Wrong place--I meant to put this in the normal thread...

Darksend
05-07-2011, 09:54 AM
I don't think it's been said yet, so I apologize if it has and I missed it.

Phase 2 lasts three minutes (according to the video or another post), but Phase 2 will end "prematurely" if the last pillar add drops to 30% of its health. If you're doing well in P2 and want to push another crackle, keep in mind this limitation.

Not true. We had a death on a platform and someone else on that platform went to the wrong one. Needless to say the other 2 platforms had to stop dps at under 10% and just sit there interrupting not attacking until the last platform finally got it low enough to push (at least a minute later).

There is a "premature" end but it is when a single add dies not 30%

Herbnosis
05-07-2011, 08:47 PM
Not true. We had a death on a platform and someone else on that platform went to the wrong one. Needless to say the other 2 platforms had to stop dps at under 10% and just sit there interrupting not attacking until the last platform finally got it low enough to push (at least a minute later).

There is a "premature" end but it is when a single add dies not 30%

Sorry, I meant to post that comment in the normal thread, which is why I deleted it here.

Kazeyonoma
05-18-2011, 04:23 PM
To those who have actually succussfully killed Nefarian, from what I gather, it's basically the same fight as normal,

except in phase 1 you have the portal thing so people need to mash 2 until next to portal press 1, and dps like nuts with new boost?

in phase 2. you have people who get debuffed jump off (need more interrupt redundancy for this, but if we already had 3 interrupters per platform we're covered yes?) and because of this, we don't push any extra electrocutes during phase 2.

phase 3 doesn't seem to have any change at all except it's a lot longer now because of lack of phase 2 dps on nef. Is this right or Am i missing something. we've started working on him and I think we have phase 1 down and just need to work on phase 2 and want to be prepared for phase 3.

Darksend
05-18-2011, 04:34 PM
To those who have actually succussfully killed Nefarian, from what I gather, it's basically the same fight as normal,

except in phase 1 you have the portal thing so people need to mash 2 until next to portal press 1, and dps like nuts with new boost?

correct, but realistically you will only push 1 crackle (on normal we did 2 or sometimes even 3)



in phase 2. you have people who get debuffed jump off (need more interrupt redundancy for this, but if we already had 3 interrupters per platform we're covered yes?) and because of this, we don't push any extra electrocutes during phase 2.

correct. unless you have 3 priests with barriers one on each platform but it really is a waste of cooldowns and healer mana especially if your kiter is reliable.

You should end this phase between 85-82%

also in 25 man (do not know in 10 but since you have 3 interrupters per I assume you are asking about 25) 3 debuffs go out at a time. I assume 1 interrupt per platform is a ranged interrupt who can hit it from the lava in the VERY VERY unlikely event that all 3 go on the same platform (no truly random sequence is random if the same thing does not happen a few times in a row. last week 3 wipes in a row because all 3 healers on a platform got the first debuff 3 attempts in a row)



phase 3 doesn't seem to have any change at all except it's a lot longer now because of lack of phase 2 dps on nef. Is this right or Am i missing something. we've started working on him and I think we have phase 1 down and just need to work on phase 2 and want to be prepared for phase 3.

you get the portals in phase 3 like you did in phase 1

Kazeyonoma
05-18-2011, 05:03 PM
Ah, okay, so yeah i expected that to be the case, and with the portals in phase 3, you basically get a damage buff to make up for the larger health pool going into it. phase 3 is essentially all on the kiting tank to kite/survive the entire duration of the fight, and dps just goes boom boom and not fail domination. That's what I expected. (yes we have several shamans that we split across the platforms to wind shear in 25m)

Darksend
05-18-2011, 05:12 PM
If you have a fury warrior rallying cry is amazing for when you don't have a barrier for the raid. Even in full 372 gear (hence the extra stam from iLvl) crackle will one shot most classes without some sort of a cooldown even from 100%. But beyond that, disc priests are a must for phase 3 and properly timing barriers. As you get better gear and you push each 10% faster you get to a point where even with 3 barriers they are all on cooldown for the 4th one in a row at some point.

Jooberz
05-26-2011, 11:01 PM
We are consistently getting through stage 1 and 2 and into stage 3 with 25 people up. We get fairly far into stage 3, we are ahead of the enrage timer, and everything seems good. But as we get towards 30% some adds always have 30+ stacks. Our add tank always dies, even with 4 healers assigned to him. Is this normal? Or is our kiter doing something wrong, and if so what can be done to fix it. Does anyone have a detailed explanation from someone that has done it using the tankspot strat on a kill?

Urud
05-27-2011, 04:36 AM
Well obviously your kiter is doing something wrong, its either him haveing the adds near the shadowblaze or the Nefarian`s shadowflame breath is hitting them. If they dont reset each 50 seconds its going to be nearly impossible to heal your add tank regardless of how many healers you stick on him.
To avoid his head you can
- move nefarian with his gut always faceing the add tank as he kites (have to move the raid too)
or be static and let your tank know that this breath will always be in a cone faceing S/N/E/W so he can always keep that in mind and avoid as much as possible that territory.
To avoid haveing bad shadowblaze reset the add livetime you can
- pile your adds in p1 better so they all stand up on the first cast or just stick em in fire so they all have the same energy in the beguining.
- emphase your shadowblaze timer in your boss mods and stick the adds in the border of the outer circle and move when you hear ''one'' on the counter.
-face your camera on top of your head and zoom out enouth so you can see how fire moves and where nefarian head/tail is.

klausi
05-27-2011, 05:40 AM
But as we get towards 30% some adds always have 30+ stacks.
Proper reset happen at 13-14 empower (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=94092), so there's something really wrong there. Especially on 25m he shouldn't worry to much about selfcooldowns, there are plenty of external cooldowns whose can take care of electrocute spikes. Focus on the job and that's proper kiting.

demoniclizard
06-03-2011, 09:21 AM
In my experience using the DBM shadowblaze warning, you want to move them about 3-4 seconds when you see the "shadowblaze soon" warning. Just strafe full speed away from the landing spot and then park them there. If you have a shockwave ability, the best time to use it is right after you just pulled them away from the incoming shadow blaze. If you have good timing, and move an appropriate distance, then you will never run out of room to kite, and the fire will never creep into the raid (it will chase you instead).

Vemorro
06-05-2011, 06:28 AM
What is the name of the addon you use for explosive cinders?

arctus
06-06-2011, 02:50 AM
When will the Shadowblaze fires disappear? I m quite expierenced with kiting adds on normal mode. In our early tries, i had to reset them 2 times. How often do i have to reset them on hero?
We tank nefarion in one "corner" so i have a "D" as kiting place. Is this tactic still viable, or will i run out of place because of the fires?

Del
06-06-2011, 10:27 AM
We'd like to finish this current tier with alittle bit of a bang and were thinking about going to Heroic Nef and skipping over Omnitron and Conclave in favor of the harder fight. If we get it we can really feel good about ourselves going into firelands and get to see a more challenging version of a fight most people in the raid really enjoy. With 4.2 persumably close there isn't a whole lot of time to finish this teir and we'd like to get a nice cap stone fight before time runs out. We're under no illusion this fight is going to easy but everyone is excited at the prospect of trying it, even if we don't kill him in time.

We have pretty solid interrupts, tanking and healing on the normal mode version of the encounter. I'd apprciate some input from other people on if there's anything we're missing going in. Why should we try? Why shouldn't we?

klausi
06-06-2011, 05:48 PM
- Healing can be rough during phase 2 (~ 45-50k hps) and you'll need a backup interrupt for every platform (any shaman/paladin healer can do that, shouldn't happen more often then once a try). This can also be true for phase 1 if you don't kite the adds and your Onyxia tank gather them all, i can peak up to 20kish while cycling through my cooldowns with a tail-lash knockdown on my two healers once in a while.
- Your tanks* will need the Tol Barad trinket (which they should have farmed anyway) or they'll run out of cooldowns for crackle. *except for DK because they have AMS :X
- Go for Nef, if your offtank is (really) decent at kiting. I'd rank that fight below Brainfuck-o-tron.

kopcap
06-06-2011, 06:00 PM
You can't tank Nef in a corner on heroic. Fire takes about 90 to despawn I think.

arctus
06-09-2011, 12:41 AM
I Just tested it yesterday on normal mode. I hope the fire doesnt behave different on heroic mode.
If so, it was possible for me to Kite the fires, while Nef was in a Corner. I guess i had 8 resets (burned through the first two phases and let me kite till enrage) and had about 40 meter extra kite path to use, till i would ve run into fire.

Are there any other disadvantages when using the corner position?

Another question regarding the electrocute. Do you also have to use raid CD's in 10m? We should push every 45s a electrocute. We have nature resistance totem, but only 3 Raid cd's (on a 3 Min CD).
And will shieldblock be enough as kiter?

Fetzie
06-09-2011, 12:56 AM
Electrocute does 130000 damage before reductions.

Darksend
06-09-2011, 03:21 AM
Electrocute does 130000 damage before reductions.
With nr totem you are guaranteed to resist 10k at least every time

How many PSes do you have we use 3 and with shield wall the tank still always has a cd for every one and we probably push a lot faster than you will. Don't forget tinge like holy pall hand of sac +bubble or the the trinket

klausi
06-09-2011, 06:32 AM
Are there any other disadvantages when using the corner position?
If i screw up and don't reset the adds on 13/14 stacks a healer from the middle can easily assist on healing me until they finally fall together.


Another question regarding the electrocute. Do you also have to use raid CD's in 10m? We should push every 45s a electrocute. We have nature resistance totem, but only 3 Raid cd's (on a 3 Min CD).
Warriors self-cooldowns:


Shield Wall (40% every second minute)
Tol Barad Trinket (40% resist on electrocute every minute)
Shield Block (20% magical damage reduction and "block capped", should be up for every Electrocute*)
Shockwave (taking out incoming damage every 3rd shadow blaze, you can use it upfront an electrocute to help topping yourself. You can combine this with a heroic leap if things get really messy.
Raidshout + enraged Regeneration (every third minute)

Call out for support (Raidwall, Painsup, Guardian Angel, Bubble+Sacrifice or just a dps stop) if you run out of cooldowns. When i reset the adds properly i get one-two electrocutes during a phase of no adds up, thus i can save my cooldown for the next one.

I regulary use

1st Mirror
2nd Adds aren't up
3rd Mirror
4th Shield Wall
5th Mirror
6th Raid Shout
7th Mirror
8th Shield Wall
9th Mirror

On a sidenote: i'm almost never in range of either natur resistance totem or hunter aura, if you struggle heavily with the elcetrocute spikes you might want to check for this first.

Imho most important about Nefarian heroic isn't the proper cooldown management (it's honestly rather simple, use a mirror if you don't happen to be a DK and you're set) but the proper reset of the adds. There's very little leeway and a lot of pressure at 20+ stacks. It should really looks like this (our most recent kill):

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/1816/empower.jpg

* unless your fury warrior is maxed on stacks and start critting with executes for 500k ;)

arctus
06-09-2011, 07:11 AM
Thanks for the Infos. I mean are there any other disadvantages?
Of course they could help me out, if i fail. But usually i have a very little fail chance, so i try to help my raid.
Compared to the middle tactic, where the mt / whole raid can fail with positioning.

Like i said, i practiced yesterday on NM a bit. 3 Trys with about 30 min kiting... never failed a reset, beside 1 single add...
Of course on HM, there will be the cooldown rotation, that puts more pressure on me. But i hope that i can do it.
So the only person who can fail in P3 is me. :)
Do i really need Shield Wall with proper add resetting? And does the raid needs raidwide cd's (like barrier), to avoid getting 1shotted?

klausi
06-09-2011, 08:48 AM
Just try hardmode, if you feel fine with having Nef in a corner i can't see a problem with that. You want a damage reduction cooldown for every electrocute, having the new shield block is a huge step forward for all warriors but i tend to use it on cooldown rather then delaying it over and over again for every crackle, thus granting me a noticeable decrease in melee damage taken (which is still 75% of my overall damage taken during that phase with both thunderclap and demoshout up and stunning constantly) and needs to be healed up from a single healer while moving, juggling their own self cooldowns and breaking mind control every so often.


And does the raid needs raidwide cd's (like barrier), to avoid getting 1shotted?
Every class/specc got some cooldowns on their own and everyone should try to using them. Problem: a lot is on an one minute cooldown so they can only use it every second electrocute. Try staying in mind control until the crackle is over before release. Don't stand in the tail-lash or the fire and assist on healing yourself before an electrocute if necessary. Your healers got 40+ seconds to top your dps after a crackle so laying down a healing rain or using other mana efficient spells over flash heals is advisable.

Unless your dps heavily undergear that place or your healer can't top you off for whatever reason your dps will never be in the risk of dying, period.

swelt
06-13-2011, 03:51 AM
Having some problems in phase 3, where the fire creeps from the outside of the ring into the middle where the raid is. DPS are complaining that they can't get good stacks of stolen power because they risk dropping out of the mind control in the middle of flames. Is there a particular trick to the starting position in p3 to avoid this happening? We have nef in the middle facing almost directly south, the raid assembled to his right, the add pile at the far north.

Darksend
06-13-2011, 05:30 AM
Having some problems in phase 3, where the fire creeps from the outside of the ring into the middle where the raid is. DPS are complaining that they can't get good stacks of stolen power because they risk dropping out of the mind control in the middle of flames. Is there a particular trick to the starting position in p3 to avoid this happening? We have nef in the middle facing almost directly south, the raid assembled to his right, the add pile at the far north.

I would think your biggest problem with this setup is your tank constantly getting tail whipped?

Also depends on how you are rotating nef and which side the adds are on. Basically you want to draw an 80-100 degree angle from where your tank is standing, with nef and the hinge, to where the adds are being tanked. And your raid should stand on the line from nef to the add tank.

As for starting, you want the add tank to be as close to the front of nef as possible without getting breathed when the adds first spawn in phase 3, gives you a few extra seconds of kiting time on the first set before the raid has to move which is very important for topping people up after the transition.

swelt
06-13-2011, 07:09 AM
Er, this probably calls for pictures... But in the absence of those, lets use a clock face.

Add tank isn't getting tail whipped, tail starts out pointing towards 11 o'clock, with the adds getting picked up at 12 and moved around clockwise. Raid starts at around 8-9 o'clock, with the nef tank starting at 5 o'clock. The whole group slowly rotates, like at Halion. So if I read what you are saying correctly, we should consider putting the raid on the same side as the add tank (i.e. starting at around 3 o'clock)?

arctus
06-14-2011, 07:32 AM
After a night wiping and a few tries in P3. I actually cant complain about the corner position. I had no problems resetting the adds or running out of space. However we had several other problems (our best try was 8%):

1. Kiter Tank healer dies. In several tries he got oneshotted by a crackle. He had 128k hp and had no CD for the crackle and took a full hit. What healer would you advise as kite healer? Disci, Paly or Druid? A Pre Shielding should survive, without a CD and could also offer a PS for the tank. However i would also love him in the group for his barrier. Whats your opinion?

2. Bad placement of the add corpse in P1. We had several trys, where the Nef breath and the shadowflame wasnt enough to resurrect all Adds. I first tried to sync them, but because of the extra time, i died. So i kited them with 2 different energy levels. Which was possible, but on the long run, i always failed. The biggest problem, that i lost 1 corpse, while i had to go on because of the other living adds. Because of bad luck, the next 3 Shadowflames didnt hit the corpse. So it got resurrected when i was out of range. I also tried to sync them mid fight, but the dmg always killed me. How do you handle those situations?

Thanks.

Arctus

Kazeyonoma
06-14-2011, 11:52 AM
man, guild got him to 18% last night. extending raid for today. hope they get it!

klausi
06-14-2011, 06:10 PM
we should consider putting the raid on the same side as the add tank (i.e. starting at around 3 o'clock)?
Yes, absolutely. This way you have backup heals for maintank/offtank if something goes messy and your auras/totems should be in range for almost everyone.


1. Kiter Tank healer dies. In several tries he got oneshotted by a crackle. He had 128k hp and had no CD for the crackle and took a full hit. What healer would you advise as kite healer? Disci, Paly or Druid?
a) You got at least 90ish resistamce from motw/kings and he can also use a resistance elixir or a stamina flask if it doesn't work another way
b) Holy pally got a -40% magical damage cooldown on a 40s cooldown + bubble + stun for the adds.. should be a nobrainer

For your other problem: that's a kiter issue, have them work on that. I just tank them all + Onyxia in phase one so they end up being clumped up perfectly. Syncing isn't possible due to fast growing stacks, having a hunter or rogue assist with MD/tricks on roamers.

swelt
06-15-2011, 03:11 AM
man, guild got him to 18% last night. extending raid for today. hope they get it!
GL!

Thanks at least in part to the feedback here, we got to 11% but hit the berserk timer, so now we are looking at DPS optimisation and also a bit of extra survival.

On our best attempt, we had one of our shaman (I think in a burst of over-enthusiasm) nuke 3 other players with a badly timed chain lightning and thunderstorm combo... This seems to present a difficult choice. On the one hand, we want people to max their dps, but on the other hand lots of classes have AOE elements in their max dps rotations. Any tips on this front?

Also, when are people burning heroism/bloodlust? After getting frustrated with phase 2 we started using it then, but I'm aware that it would be more beneficial to total RDPS if it were timed when we had the benefit of stolen power.

Fetzie
06-15-2011, 03:27 AM
I'd just tell people who need to AoE for their rotation to hold off their chain lightnings etc until the mind controls have faded, 3 dead people means way more of an rDPS loss than holding off a spell for 5 seconds.