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View Full Version : The Weekly Marmot - Patch 4.1/4.2



Lore
03-08-2011, 10:21 PM
VFWGpBIQq9g

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Conradx
03-08-2011, 10:50 PM
"http://gyazo.com/3f181aca446527a6bcf8of68f3568cda.png (http://gyazo.com/3f181aca446527a6bcf8of68f3568cda.png)"

All I get is an error message from gyazo...am I doing it wrong?

Btw, the start of this episode was awesome.

Scottpoet
03-08-2011, 11:07 PM
...play for 40 hours a day for 3 weeks

makes perfect sense

Voldra
03-09-2011, 12:06 AM
I might be one of the few that is actually a bit relieved Firelands isn't coming out as fast as we thought because myself and my guild are still progressing through the current tier and we started rushing recently thinking "oh we have to get through all of this content now and gear up to be ready for Firelands asap."

Pavidus
03-09-2011, 01:18 AM
http://gyazo.com/3f181aca446527a6bcf8of68f3568cda.png

Nothin'. Just error page.

uglie
03-09-2011, 01:35 AM
I might be one of the few that is actually a bit relieved Firelands isn't coming out as fast as we thought because myself and my guild are still progressing through the current tier and we started rushing recently thinking "oh we have to get through all of this content now and gear up to be ready for Firelands asap."
Same thing here. The raids are still fresh for me and my guild not because it's "too hard" but getting face time with the same guild group each week seems to be a problem (people not being able to show each and every week). Even though the raids are still fresh for us the 5 mans are just /autorun /pause at boss /autorun, so some new 5 mans would be nice to be able to do while not in a raid. The QQ on the wow general forums is gonna be funny to watch too, kinda like a guy getting kicked in the nuts repeatedly.

Scottpoet
03-09-2011, 01:41 AM
the good part about the new 5 mans is the 353 (guessing epics) should make it easier for guilds on the edge of completing raids to be a success in the normal version. A small margin, but every bit helps.

swelt
03-09-2011, 02:19 AM
I'm kinda expecting a wave of nerfs to hit the current raid tier when 4.1 hits to help accelerate progression. I could be wrong, but it seems like it would be the right time to do it. Gear from the 5 man dungeons alone won't help that much (maelstrom prices will come down), it's mostly skill/strategy that makes the normal mode encounters difficult. Heroic progression curve feels pretty tough.

Coming back to the main point though, I think it all comes down to intention vs execution. Blizzard say they want to have more rapid patch turnover, and I like the idea... but Blizzard also have very high standards for QA and they won't ship these things "until they are done", so I think a lot rides on whether they can actually do a short PTR cycle for 4.1 and then 4.2 or whether they actually end up shipping a lot slower than they want because of their own attention to detail.

Rawer
03-09-2011, 03:05 AM
No ... just no !

The fact is that they are behind, way behind schedule and we might be behind Raid Heroic progression, but not normal progression. Lots of people don't want to clear heroics 4.0 to go to 4.1 normal.
Also it's not that they want to release patches quicker ... is that they want to release them differently than in the past.

Ulduar was released in April ... we won't see Firelands raid ready for April for sure, maybe July/August, the release date of ToC.

They should have atleast released the Firelands zone with the dailies, or the Mount Hyjal with dailies or Abbysal Maw dungeon and some other new stuff in 4.1.

What about the 2nd raid ? Where is it ? ... My impression is they have only one raid per tier from now on, or had, because no-one is talking about what was the raid on the side of defeating Ragnaros, unless Firelands has two wings or something.
That secret 2nd raid was certainly behind in the making for 4.1 patch.

Now, no Firelands raid in 4.1 means more than that. Means no PvP season ready, no new BH boss, no new content like dailies for non-raiders, no new stuff in professions for 2nd tier.

I thought they were faster, more careful this time, they had Firelands in development since Blizzcon 2010 or more, so I don't get it why they are so behind now. (Titan new MMO/ Diablo 3 took best people off development, my only normal guess)

With 4.1 ZG and ZA they are just giving something to do in between, that something is not enough for lots of players after 5-6 months.

Madyrn
03-09-2011, 07:00 AM
No ... just no !

The fact is that they are behind, way behind schedule and we might be behind Raid Heroic progression, but not normal progression. Lots of people don't want to clear heroics 4.0 to go to 4.1 normal.
Also it's not that they want to release patches quicker ... is that they want to release them differently than in the past.

Ulduar was released in April ... we won't see Firelands raid ready for April for sure, maybe July/August, the release date of ToC.

They should have atleast released the Firelands zone with the dailies, or the Mount Hyjal with dailies or Abbysal Maw dungeon and some other new stuff in 4.1.

What about the 2nd raid ? Where is it ? ... My impression is they have only one raid per tier from now on, or had, because no-one is talking about what was the raid on the side of defeating Ragnaros, unless Firelands has two wings or something.
That secret 2nd raid was certainly behind in the making for 4.1 patch.

Now, no Firelands raid in 4.1 means more than that. Means no PvP season ready, no new BH boss, no new content like dailies for non-raiders, no new stuff in professions for 2nd tier.

I thought they were faster, more careful this time, they had Firelands in development since Blizzcon 2010 or more, so I don't get it why they are so behind now. (Titan new MMO/ Diablo 3 took best people off development, my only normal guess)

With 4.1 ZG and ZA they are just giving something to do in between, that something is not enough for lots of players after 5-6 months.

There seems to be a lot of guessing in your post there. Fortunately, people like Lore rely on facts. The information is out there, you just have to be willing to drop the conspiracy theories long enough to soak it up. That said,

WTF? It never ceases to amaze me how people get so bent up about something that is free. You pay for the game itself. You pay to play it online. Patches are not a part of those payments. Patches (content or otherwise) are EXTRAS. We are not entitled to new content at any point, companies like Blizzard continue to do this to keep us playing. They could always hold all patches until a whole new expansion and then what would you do?

I've said it on other forums and I'll say it here, a patch is akin to going to a burger joint and ordering just a burger. Then, while you are eating said burger, the management rushes over to your table with fries and a coke and says, "hey, uh, so we kind of figured the burger on its own wasn't quite enough so we decided to upgrade your meal with this drink and fries. The extra food should make for a better meal." Patch = free food.

Quit the QQ and be happy with the FACT that Blizzard at least cares enough about their product to have entire teams working on it endlessly since its release.

Rawer
03-09-2011, 07:45 AM
There seems to be a lot of guessing in your post there. Fortunately, people like Lore rely on facts. The information is out there, you just have to be willing to drop the conspiracy theories long enough to soak it up. That said,

WTF? blah blah blah

burger, blah blah blah Patch = free food.

Quit the QQ and be happy with the FACT that Blizzard at least cares enough about their product to have entire teams working on it endlessly since its release.

Blizzard ain't Burger King and WoW ain't burgers, and patches are not ketchup that you think you get for free but it's in the price you paid for food anyway. We are in a MMO which is subscription based, if they don't provide patch content people won't keep their subscription for 2 years until next expansion. Maybe on your Xbox you are used to pay 30 $ for 6 hours of play time on crappy games.

I'm not QQing ... I'm just writing what Blizzard promised and what expectation was and I'm only guessing because Blizzard doesn't tell us stuff until we data-mine it or find out wwithout them wanting us to know ...
My main point is this:
Now, no Firelands raid in 4.1 means more than that. Means no PvP season ready, no new BH boss, no new content like dailies for non-raiders, no new stuff in professions for 2nd tier etc etc ...

Madyrn
03-09-2011, 08:25 AM
Blizzard ain't Burger King and WoW ain't burgers, and patches are not ketchup that you think you get for free but it's in the price you paid for food anyway. We are in a MMO which is subscription based, if they don't provide patch content people won't keep their subscription for 2 years until next expansion. Maybe on your Xbox you are used to pay 30 $ for 6 hours of play time on crappy games.

I'm not QQing ... I'm just writing what Blizzard promised and what expectation was and I'm only guessing because Blizzard doesn't tell us stuff until we data-mine it or find out wwithout them wanting us to know ...
My main point is this:
Now, no Firelands raid in 4.1 means more than that. Means no PvP season ready, no new BH boss, no new content like dailies for non-raiders, no new stuff in professions for 2nd tier etc etc ...

*Edit: Madyrn would like to apologize for being stupid. His remarks have been removed to prevent further stupidity.

Madyrn

Rawer
03-09-2011, 08:42 AM
You should stop insulting.

Madyrn
03-09-2011, 08:55 AM
You should stop insulting.

You should back up your QQ with facts and stop complaining. You have a game to play loaded with plenty of content. In the event that Firelands is delayed beyond a new arena season, Blizzard will make an exception. The whole point of what they are wanting to do now is just that. Release the content that is ready instead of holding back all content so a bigger release can be made. Your season has not been post-poned and they've already made it clear that the new areas will be available just not the raid.

If I insult, it's because I get tired of people blasting something they have not taken the time to understand. Educate yourself about the situation and then see where you are. You certainly won't be crying on forums afterward.

Ion
03-09-2011, 09:14 AM
Lore had good information...the comments here make us all stupider for having read them. Good job guys.

Next time watch the video.

Quinafoi
03-09-2011, 09:57 AM
It's amazing how the QQ being brought up was addressed in the video by Lore what... five... six times?

Firelands isn't "delayed".
ZG and ZA are just being released "earlier".

Also, if Blizzard intends on having the PvP season coincide with the Firelands release... if Firelands isn't "delayed" then neither is the new PvP season. Naturally they planned it this way.

Madyrn
03-09-2011, 10:41 AM
Lore had good information...the comments here make us all stupider for having read them. Good job guys.

Next time watch the video.

You are correct. I removed my childish remarks. I know better. Didn't mean to bring down the mood.

Jasrick
03-09-2011, 11:01 AM
Rawer is just like many of the people on the blizzard forums, who complain when they don't get something the way they think they should get it.

Another way to think about it is that blizzard planned for the new raid and new arena season to be released 5-6 months after expansion release (like in april/may) and are just giving ZA/ZG along with the balance changes as an early bonus. Just because 4.1 changed to 4.2 and now they are releasing changes earlier doesn't mean anything is delayed.

If you don't like the job they are doing, then either complain to them directly under the blizzard support tab or use your power of the consumer and stop paying for the service.

Btw, the correct website Lore mentioned in the end is:
http://gyazo.com/3f181aca446527a6bcf80f68f3568cda.png
its a 0(zero) not an o

Rawer
03-09-2011, 11:57 AM
Again ... I'm not qqing ... I'm QQuestioning things ...

Lore thought just like me at first then made the step back. Excuse me but I don't see ZG/ZA brought "earlier" but "on time" and I see Firelands late in development. Zarhym corrected Bashiok because of that, cos people were questioning raid progression as a motive for all new content patch delay.


Rawer is just like many of the people on the blizzard forums, who complain when they don't get something the way they think they should get it. You don't even imagine what I think I should get or not get ... all those things I said were stuff Blizzard said it will be and then they changed their mind. You can check forums, old site on google cache, youtube Blizzcon panels etc.
They had Firelands on the Blizzcon 2009 ...

I'm negative, I know ... but I'm not happy pink life double-rainbow "cool I'm not 12/12 on HC yet anyway" either. I'll repeat myself , I don't care about the Firelands raid, I care of all the futures that should have been brought up with the new tier(new dailies, new quests, new zones, new gear, epic gems whatever). ZG/ZA most people will only do first week unless there will be a gimmick like rewarding Valor points and the quests leading will be done in 30-45 mins and that's it.

I'm curious what people think will be the release dates of next content patches, big or small ... cos Lore said six month is a good margin for new raid content patch ... well I doubt 4.2 will be ready for May.

Krenian
03-09-2011, 12:02 PM
Although it is fine to agree or disagree with what Lore thinks, (and by all standards, that's what a forum is made for and understanding this is part of moderating certain forums) I would like to remind people that insulting each other because we agree or disagree with certain points shouldn't be ever made into an argument.

Jack Bauer's now watching this thread carefully. Be forewarned.

klor
03-09-2011, 12:10 PM
Again ... I'm not qqing ... I'm QQuestioning things ...

Lore thought just like me at first then made the step back. Excuse me but I don't see ZG/ZA brought "earlier" but "on time" and I see Firelands late in development. Zarhym corrected Bashiok because of that, cos people were questioning raid progression as a motive for all new content patch delay.

You don't even imagine what I think I should get or not get ... all those things I said were stuff Blizzard said it will be and then they changed their mind. You can check forums, old site on google cache, youtube Blizzcon panels etc.
They had Firelands on the Blizzcon 2009 ...

I'm negative, I know ... but I'm not happy pink life double-rainbow "cool I'm not 12/12 on HC yet anyway" either. I'll repeat myself , I don't care about the Firelands raid, I care of all the futures that should have been brought up with the new tier(new dailies, new quests, new zones, new gear, epic gems whatever). ZG/ZA most people will only do first week unless there will be a gimmick like rewarding Valor points and the quests leading will be done in 30-45 mins and that's it.

I'm curious what people think will be the release dates of next content patches, big or small ... cos Lore said six month is a good margin for new raid content patch ... well I doubt 4.2 will be ready for May.

Blizzard also promised a dance studio for wrath. Complaining that they did not provide what they promised is kinda Meh. So the numbers change. Big deal. Id rather them push the content back to fine tune it a bit more or make changes that makes it more interesting than for them to rush it.

Kazeyonoma
03-09-2011, 12:16 PM
content has historically ALWAYS come out in 5-7 month rotations, this coincides with pvp seasons, the only truly anomaly was the 1 year of ICC that we had that they tried to stem by giving us ruby sanctum...

I don't see how firelands coming out in late may-mid june as late development at all, this coincides RIGHT with the 6.5 month period for content release they've always followed. Giving ZA/ZG to do in between for patch 4.1 is just their latest ruby sanctum. How does anyone outside of someone who works for blizzard, even know whether they are late/early for their content progression. They have sheets, they have deadlines, and i'm positive, they are being held to them. All other dates are purely conjecture and speculation and complaining about such is kind of silly.

Mwawka
03-09-2011, 12:43 PM
Think of it this way.

Ulduar came out pretty much 5 months after Wrath shipped. 3.0 was a raid tier considered extremely easy with no hard modes and was given a 5 month life span. I think that the current tier definitely deserves more time than that, so I have no desire for an early May release of firelands. Sometime in June would seem about right, and I would expect from the info I've read that 4.2 will be released around then.

Also, I would rather that Blizzard extended the raid tiers by a couple of month and spread them out more evenly over the life of the expansion so we don't end up with a situation like Icecrown where we are raiding the last tier for a year.

If we get firelands in June/July, then they can also avoid a raid patch over the holidays and release one in January instead without having the wait seem way too long. To me the timing and spacing of the raid patches seems like it could fall into a nice groove with this decision.

uglie
03-09-2011, 01:37 PM
From everything I've gathered we're getting a half patch every 3 months instead of a whole patch every 6. These half patches sound like they will alternate between 5 man / new dailies patches and new raids / pvp season patches.

clvsutil
03-09-2011, 02:10 PM
Same thing here. The raids are still fresh for me and my guild not because it's "too hard" but getting face time with the same guild group each week seems to be a problem (people not being able to show each and every week). Even though the raids are still fresh for us the 5 mans are just /autorun /pause at boss /autorun, so some new 5 mans would be nice to be able to do while not in a raid. The QQ on the wow general forums is gonna be funny to watch too, kinda like a guy getting kicked in the nuts repeatedly.

Same thing here. Playing in 2 guilds (one horde, other alliance) on different days and realms. On both have same problem: players dont attend, some of them think this expasion is hard and are avoiding raid time. I am basically frustrated; the encounters are challenging in my opinion and I would like to see how far we could go before a nerf. In one of this guilds I am playing since ICC. We had problems on progressing at ICC, we had to leave our previous guild to join another really focused on progression and work to kill each boss one by one. We stuck on PP for 5/6 weeks until find a way to kill him, and we finally killed LK after many wipes on Sinda and LK. But now it's this: "ah sorry, have other things to do", "ops, have to go out for dinner" :(

Zxian
03-09-2011, 02:12 PM
From everything I've gathered we're getting a half patch every 3 months instead of a whole patch every 6. These half patches sound like they will alternate between 5 man / new dailies patches and new raids / pvp season patches.

Exactly. There will often be 'something' new coming out more frequently than before.

I don't understand why people are complaining about the state of progression? Honestly, I think it's perfectly fine to consider hardmode progression as the baseline. If you were in a guild that after 12 months had yet to kill the Lich King, you shouldn't be looking forward to the next 'tier' of raiding (if there had been a patch 3.4). If you haven't downed 12/12 reg and are not working on hard modes now, then you shouldn't be complaining that there's no new raid tier. If you have killed everything already, then enjoy your 1 night/week schedule and go on with the rest of your life. Otherwise, you're just complaining that there's no 'free lewts' coming out with the new patch, since the first few bosses of a new tier are often easier mechanics-wise than the last bosses of the old tier (Beasts vs Yogg, Marrowgar vs Anub). Very little of the player base have killed all the bosses, and even fewer have had a chance to work on heroic modes.

swills
03-09-2011, 04:19 PM
I don't totally disagree with the decision, but the point all the people saying "The raids are still fresh for me and my guild" and "I'm not ready for Firelands yet" should remember is that no-one at all is saying you can have Firelands *now*. Even if it was on PTR it wouldn't be live for 6-8 weeks.

Sure you might not be ready for Firelands *now*, but you might be at the beginning of May? that would be the situation if it was on PTW now. Although I don't mind delaying Firelands right now, I am pretty sure I would be ready for something new to do by May.

As it stands, assume this patch goes live in a month (early April) then another week or two for 4.1 to hit PTR, then maybe 6-8 weeks testing time for that too, and suddenly it is June. December -> June is too logn without new raid bosses IMO.

uglie
03-09-2011, 04:45 PM
I don't totally disagree with the decision, but the point all the people saying "The raids are still fresh for me and my guild" and "I'm not ready for Firelands yet" should remember is that no-one at all is saying you can have Firelands *now*. Even if it was on PTR it wouldn't be live for 6-8 weeks.

Sure you might not be ready for Firelands *now*, but you might be at the beginning of May? that would be the situation if it was on PTW now. Although I don't mind delaying Firelands right now, I am pretty sure I would be ready for something new to do by May.

As it stands, assume this patch goes live in a month (early April) then another week or two for 4.1 to hit PTR, then maybe 6-8 weeks testing time for that too, and suddenly it is June. December -> June is too logn without new raid bosses IMO.

As kaz said patches with raids and 5 mans used to come out every 5-7 months. So now with the way the new patches are being done new raids will still be every 5-7 months (the next raid tier is looking to be at the 7 months mark) but we'll have new 5 mans and other non raid content being released between the raid patches. You can basically say that now we'll have 5 man patches and raid patches.
Look at it like this, we're still getting the new raid(s) on schedule but blizz is splitting up the 5 man part and the raid part the the patch and giving us the 5 mans early. We're not getting the raid portion of the patch later.

We're not getting a 1 pound burger like we were used to but instead we're getting a 1/2 pound burger to start out with and then getting another 1/2 pound burger when we're done with or almost done with the first 1/2 pound burger.

Kazeyonoma
03-09-2011, 05:02 PM
more like a 1.5 lb burger, and now we're getting .5 sooner, and 1lb later =P raid patches almost always contain way more content than just the 5man/mid tier patches.

Fetzie
03-09-2011, 05:04 PM
I think of it more like an appetiser to whet the appetite for the main course in 4.2

swills
03-09-2011, 05:09 PM
As kaz said patches with raids and 5 mans used to come out every 5-7 months.
Hmm, well saying it, and it being true are two different things. :)

2.0 - TBC - Jan 2007
2.1 - BT & MH - May 2007 - Took 4 months
2.3 - ZA - Nov 2007 - Took 6 months
2.4 - Sunwell - Mar 2008 - Took 4 months

3.0 - WotLK - November 2008
3.1 - Ulduar - April 2009 - Took 5 months
3.2 - ToC - August 2009 - Took 4 months
3.3 - ICC - December 2009 - Took 4 months

4.0 - Cata - Dec 2010
4.1 - No raid - April 2011 (safe assumption) - 4 months
4.2 - Firelands - ??? (June 2011) - 6 months?

We've never had a 7 month wait between raids. Firelands is tied with ZA as the longest time we have ever had to wait for a content patch in an expansion. It's fine and all, this isn't a big complaint. It's important to be aware of the facts though. Firelands doesn't feel like it should arrive *now*, but as a guild & raid leader to me it does feel life it should be live in a month or two from now. It is likely a lot further off than that.

Kazeyonoma
03-09-2011, 05:09 PM
anyone else suddenly very hungry?

Fetzie
03-09-2011, 05:13 PM
anyone else suddenly very hungry?

I thought I was the only one :) brb getting food

Also, don't forget how it was in classic. One "major content patch" was new weather effects so that it could be cloudy or rain, another was a single (!) 5man dungeon called Maraudon - not even endgame content. There were raid patches - BWL, ZG, AQ, NAXX40 - and there were 5man or interface/quality of life patches. Out of the 13 patches applied to WoW v1.0 only 4 introduced new raid content.

Kazeyonoma
03-09-2011, 05:46 PM
if you're going to do this, you have to do it right, you can just lump "jan 2007" and say it took 4 months. dates are important, that's why i did this:


start:
patch 2.0.3 bc: 9 january 2007 http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_2.0.3
patch 2.1.0 bt: 22 May 2007 http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_2.1.0
time passed: 20 weeks
patch 2.3.0 za: 13 Nov 2007 http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_2.3.0
time passed: 25 weeks
patch 2.4.0 sw: 25 March 2008 http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_2.4.0
time passed: 19 weeks

patch 3.0.5 WOTLK: 13 November 2008
time passed: 33 weeks
patch 3.1.0 Ulduar: 14 April 2009 http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_3.1.0
time passed: 22 weeks
patch 3.2.0 TOTC: 4 Aug 2009 http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_3.2.0
time passed: 16 weeks
patch 3.3.0 ICC: 8 Dec 2009 http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_3.3.0
time passed: 18 weeks
patch 3.3.5 RS: 22 June 2010 http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_3.3.5
time passed: 28 weeks

patch 4.0.3 CATA: 7 Dec 2010 http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_4.0.3a
time passed: 24 weeks

20 weeks = 5 months
25 weeks = 6.25 months
19 weeks = 4.75 months
33 weeks = 8.25 months
22 weeks = 5.5 months
16 weeks = 4 months
18 weeks = 4.5 months
28 weeks = 7 months
24 weeks = 6 months

Average 5.5-5.75 months.

uglie
03-09-2011, 05:56 PM
from this day on, patch day will now be referred to as burger day.

Jericho
03-09-2011, 05:59 PM
Hmm, well saying it, and it being true are two different things. :)

2.0 - TBC - Jan 2007
2.1 - BT & MH - May 2007 - Took 4 months
2.3 - ZA - Nov 2007 - Took 6 months
2.4 - Sunwell - Mar 2008 - Took 4 months

3.0 - WotLK - November 2008
3.1 - Ulduar - April 2009 - Took 5 months
3.2 - ToC - August 2009 - Took 4 months
3.3 - ICC - December 2009 - Took 4 months

4.0 - Cata - Dec 2010
4.1 - No raid - April 2011 (safe assumption) - 4 months
4.2 - Firelands - ??? (June 2011) - 6 months?

We've never had a 7 month wait between raids. Firelands is tied with ZA as the longest time we have ever had to wait for a content patch in an expansion. It's fine and all, this isn't a big complaint. It's important to be aware of the facts though. Firelands doesn't feel like it should arrive *now*, but as a guild & raid leader to me it does feel life it should be live in a month or two from now. It is likely a lot further off than that.

I'd like to point out that there is a few things "off" in your numbers. As well as agree with your point in general.

2.1 came out 4 months after release but were designed in such a way that 98% of all guilds did not see this content until well into the 8-9 month period. TBC was a different entity in its entirety in terms of content release as well as overall content design. Its unfair to compare the TBC dates to any other dates because ZA was seen as a "minor content" patch because it was a 10man only raid that was ancillary to the overall flow of TBC raiding. Most people see TBC content as being pushed in the correct manner. Pushing a lot of content at the beginning of the expansion but it did not last the tip top guilds nearly as long as the rest of the guilds.

Blizzard tried to fix this damn near year long drought of content between raid tiers in Wrath by only pushing 1 raid tier at a time. Inevitably only pushing one dungeon raid at a time. Yet, in the end we still saw a year of the final tier of content. Where we had seen a year of BT/MH in TBC, we saw a year of ICC in WotLK. Appearances can be deceiving with your numbers.

I would also like to point out that it was closer to 6 months rather than 5 for Ulduar. It is widely held that Ulduar took far too long to push to live servers. While Blizzard is not 100% correct that ToC came out too soon. ToC came out too soon for the level of content that it turned out to be. The daily hub was a wonderful addition to the game, the Raid however was an abomination.

I would like to agree with Lore that, if Blizzard's belief behind the change is in fact to push the content they have ready to go out the door faster, then I am all for it. The problem is once again in their initial PR push. My biggest issue with this is not the fact that we will not be seeing Firelands in 4.1. It is more on the timing of these patches. If 4.1 is not going to have the raid, then it should be significantly faster to push live than if it did have it. We were all expecting a raid by mid April. We are not getting that. We are not getting a daily quest hub either. So, Why are we waiting for another 5 weeks to see this patch? If 4.1 isn't live before April 1st then the real damage will have been done.

Many raiders are bored to tears with the current paradigm of the raiding world. Ever since the shift from the TBC 10+25 model to the 10/25 and now the 10 or 25 model we have been scratching our collective heads. We want multiple ways to enjoy this game, and multiple ways to enjoy the same content is not what we are asking for. We want multiple platforms of content. New 5 man dungeons are nice. 10 man raids in TBC were a different model to enjoy. Sure not all players enjoyed all levels of content, but isn't that the point? Give us more than 1 raid, daily quests, heroics and pvp. There are a lot of other avenues to explore in terms of gameplay. These should be the reasons to push content back. Designing new types of content, not streamlining raid content back down to a single raid per tier and boring us all.

swills
03-09-2011, 07:26 PM
if you're going to do this, you have to do it right.
Fair enough, but if you really want to talk about being right, let us really do it right.

First, you can't compare the release of a single content patch with the release of an entire expansion. Entire continents will always take longer than a raid instance + daily hub. We should remove time between expansions. You can't really compare the release of Firelands with the release of Cataclysm after all.

Second, your math is a little misleading. 52 weeks = 12 months. 26 weeks = 6 months. Saying "25 weeks = 6.25 months" isn't quite correct and give an impression that the waits were longer than they were.

Looking at the time taken for previous raid patch release (which is what 4.0-4.2 is after all) gives:

2.0 -> 2.1 = 20 weeks
2.1 -> 2.3 = 25 weeks
2.2 -> 2.4 = 19 weeks

3.0 -> 3.1 = 22 weeks
3.1 -> 3.2 = 16 weeks
3.2 -> 3.3 = 18 weeks

4.0 -> 4.2 = ????

Average up to now is 20 weeks for a content patches release.

It's been 13 weeks since 4.0 now. I think reasonable guesses based on past PTR activity would be 4.1 on PTR for 4 more weeks, 2 weeks for 4.2 to be PTR ready, and then 6-8 weeks of PTR testing for 4.2.

That seems fair right? That gives 25-27 weeks give or take. Firelands will likely be the longest we've ever had to wait for a raid content patch.

I'm not saying right or wrong, I'm just saying that this information isn't irrelevant when considering the arguments of the people who believe Firelands will take too long to arrive.

Fetzie
03-09-2011, 07:48 PM
Let us go back a little further...

7th November 2004 - US release of WoW 1.0; shipped with Onyxia's lair and Molten Core raid instances
12th July 2005 Patch 1.5 - Blackwing Lair (35 weeks)
13th September 2005 Patch 1.6 - Zul'Gurub 20 (amongst other stuff like arathi basin BG) (9 weeks)
3rd January 2006 Patch 1.9 - Ahn'Qiraj 20 + 40 (16 weeks from ZG release, 25 from BWL release)
12th June 2006 Patch 1.11 - Naxxramas(40) (25 weeks)

this is discounting stuff like 1.8.0 Nightmare Dragons or 1.10 T0.5 content and weather effects.

Jericho
03-09-2011, 10:21 PM
Do those 16 weeks include the AQ opening event or is that when the event began? (Just curious because I started between AQ and Naxx release.)

I do not think you can really compare the launch to BWL time period considering the complete overhaul the base game received between the two. There was so much other stuff they added and fixed between launch and 1.5. Two, 3 winged instances were added, world events and the huge PvP additions were made during this time. Not to mention several outdoor Raid encounters. The definition of content was much different in the first 35 weeks of WoW than it is now. I am not really sure talking about the Pre-TBC Content Model is applicable here. For one thing, the average time between content patches of anysize was around 3 months.

I am all for them returning to this ~3month mark and getting more bite size nuggets of content between the large raid instance releases. They just need to make it just that, 3months. If 4.1 had release this week, it would have been just under the 4 month mark. That is a bit too long for a bitesize patch. Just like 25+ weeks is much too long for a major content patch.

klausi
03-09-2011, 10:47 PM
You're talking about releases but exclude (or forgot?) about those gating systems and unbeatable cockblocks down the road like the first bosses of bwl, cthun unkillable for months, several 4 piece t3 tanks required for four-horsemen, muru.. all this come to my mind almost instantly when thinking about the progression routes/stepstones.

5-6 months seems like a reasonable time for those semi-hardcore-progression guilds to clear almost all heroic modes, enough time for the serious progression guilds to rest and for all the casual guilds to beat the game once and see one or two heroics. We're three month into this expansion and only 44 guilds downed 13/13 yet according to wowprogress.

During TBC i attended to a semi-hardcore-progression guild and we farmed BT/MH for over half a year after killing Illidan first time until the next 'real' raiddungeon was released, that time period was waaaaay to long and ZA couldn't fill that gap due to being another format and way below in difficulty.

ZA/ZG are heroic dungeons if i'm not entirlely misinformed so they are just additions to the pool of regular avaible heroics you farm every day for your 70 valor points and won't last for any serious player for more then a night or two. Comparable to those ICC-5-mans at best.

Fetzie
03-10-2011, 12:15 AM
I am very happy to have been given another 4 weeks to work on getting heroics down, having got our Nef kill yesterday evening. This means that we have a chance at being a couple more bosses further on in progress than otherwise (It also means we will have a very short raid on Monday when we go and clear up the rest of the bosses on non-heroic).

This raid tier has been more work to get cleared on non-heroic than the TBC T1 raids and the WotLK T1 raids, this coupled with the attendance issues of the last couple of weeks has meant that we haven't had time to get more than Halfus heroic yet. We are no elite hardcore guild la Paragon/Method etc, I consider us to be a fairly serious raid, and if we have just managed to kill the 12th boss (if we hadn't had attendance issues he would have died two weeks ago) I don't know how long it will be for the less serious guilds to kill 12/12.

If it really is the case that we will NEED the extra gear for blizzard to slow down the patch release, then so be it. This seems to me that they reckon the difficulty is about right, the guilds who are going to kill Nef before 4.1 probably have done or are close to it, and then the 10-12 IDs between now and then can be used to farm epics and get hardmodes down for 372s to make the first firelands bosses easier.

For our guild the timing of the next patch and its delay could not have been better in my opinion, the later firelands comes the more time we have in T11 content, and the longer they have to develop it the better the T12 content will be.


Do those 16 weeks include the AQ opening event or is that when the event began? (Just curious because I started between AQ and Naxx release.)the war effort was started at 1.3-1.4ish, so about April 2005. I mean, we had to collect like a million runecloth bandages, that took quite a lot of time :)

Vrashnar
03-10-2011, 01:11 AM
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm seeing an interesting correlation between Rift announcing it would have small frequent content patches & WoW now announcing it will do the same.

Not that I'm complaining at all, personally i think this is a very good direction for the game to be heading in.

Zeppelin535
03-10-2011, 07:02 PM
Although it is fine to agree or disagree with what Lore thinks, (and by all standards, that's what a forum is made for and understanding this is part of moderating certain forums) I would like to remind people that insulting each other because we agree or disagree with certain points shouldn't be ever made into an argument.

Jack Bauer's now watching this thread carefully. Be forewarned.

Although I am sure it is more fine to agree than to disagree, which I happen to.

Also, Jack Bauer may be watching this thread, but MacGyver could construct a more effective moderation and observation robot using only paper clips and copper wire.

Fetzie
03-10-2011, 07:31 PM
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm seeing an interesting correlation between Rift announcing it would have small frequent content patches & WoW now announcing it will do the same.

to be honest it is something I have missed, getting a new toy every couple of months is much better than a large toy every 6.


Although I am sure it is more fine to agree than to disagree, which I happen to.

Also, Jack Bauer may be watching this thread, but MacGyver could construct a more effective moderation and observation robot using only paper clips and copper wire.

Don't go there :)

luthare
03-12-2011, 11:13 PM
2 ?s 1 Where can I watch old weekly marmot shows 2 with all the new quest put in for lvl 1-60 why do so meny rush to 85 to do end game content? thanks for at least looking at this I hope Sunnsinne from <duskwood> realm

Rawer
03-30-2011, 12:23 AM
I would like to agree with Lore that, if Blizzard's belief behind the change is in fact to push the content they have ready to go out the door faster, then I am all for it. The problem is once again in their initial PR push. My biggest issue with this is not the fact that we will not be seeing Firelands in 4.1. It is more on the timing of these patches. If 4.1 is not going to have the raid, then it should be significantly faster to push live than if it did have it. We were all expecting a raid by mid April. We are not getting that. We are not getting a daily quest hub either. So, Why are we waiting for another 5 weeks to see this patch? If 4.1 isn't live before April 1st then the real damage will have been done.


This ... we are losing players weekly and will be that way until june/july on 4.2 . :(

Croz
04-14-2011, 02:27 PM
Honestly, one of the biggest problems I have with what they are doing is a complete redefinition of what a major content patch in WoW is after 6 years. We have had patches come out with little bits of new content before, but they didn't get hyped and pushed as a content patch. The Onyxia patch in wrath didn't get called 3.3 and push ICC to 3.4 and likewise Ruby Sanctum didn't come out as patch 3.4. We have been taught to expect more than 1 new thing from a major content patch, and that isn't what this is. I don't really have a problem with their timing of firelands, or pushing out ZA and ZG sooner. What I have a problem with is that they seem to be hyping 4.1 as the first content patch for cataclysm in order to, in my opinion, bring back players that may have stopped in cataclysm, roping in the people that aren't really paying attention, but always want to come back and check out new raids and new areas. It feels like a PR lie to me. I think its a little late in the game to essentially change their version numbering convention that has been established over several years.

Rawer
06-24-2011, 01:27 AM
Ok, guess on this weeks' Legendary episode 33 Lore had some change of thought 3.5 months later.
Seems like Legendary talks have more critique for Blizzard than the Weekly Marmots also, lately.

Besides the "Think positive !" ofcourse.

Darksend
06-24-2011, 01:21 PM
Because if you actually count the weeks, it will be 16 weeks minus 1 day on Tuesday (which is pretty much as close to guaranteed to be a patch day as you can get), so basically 4 months. When they made this announcement, we expected that firelands was maybe 2 months at most away from live servers. Instead, it wasn't on the PTR for 2 months.

A lot of us feel like blizzard basically lied to us with their press release. And as a consumer, that is unacceptable from a company. They should have realized that a remake of ZA/ZG would take all of 2 minutes to be ready and should have just made it patch 4.0.8 or whatever. I honestly think blizzard made it 4.1 because they are trying to get out of making another full raid content this patch. So basically we will be getting into content, firelands, and then deathwing. So basically WOTLK all over, minus ulduar (since firelands is more like ToC than ulduar). How short would WOTLK have been without ulduar, I think we are about to find out with Cata.