PDA

View Full Version : Tanking Geming



conanobrian
03-04-2011, 12:26 PM
I am working on my tank gear set and I have finally been able to get thru heroic dungeons without too much trouble as long as the group is good. Link to my armory: Conanobrian@staghelm

I do not have any gems yet b/c i've been replacing gear but now that i have some semi perminant stuff i'd like to gem it. My main concern should pbly be stam right now as i have about 127k i think without buffs. After buffs i hit about 160k with luck of the draw and shout.

Also i know absolutely nothing about gems. never used them.

Loganisis
03-04-2011, 02:22 PM
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/staghelm/conanobrian/advanced Copy and paste the link in the future.

Gems for warriors are:

Red = Parry/Mastery
Yellow = Mastery
Blue = Mastery/Stamina
Meta (helm) is Sta/Armor.

You'll also want to reforge.

If it doesn't have mastery, reforge into mastery (even if it means reforging dodge/parry).
If it has mastery and something other than dodge/parry, reforge the something other into dodge/parry.
If you can reforge haste* first, then hit, then expertise, then dodge/parry, then mastery

*Haste is only thrown in there becasue when gearing, something with a ton of mastery and haste, though technically a DPS item, might be an upgrade and the haste could become dodge/parry.

You'll want to try to keep parry roughly 2.5% higher than dodge through reforging.

You're missing a few enchantments too - blocking on your sheild, a mastery enchant over stamina on your boots, the higher stamina enchant on your chest, the enchants on your wrists, legs and cloaks and for you rings - are you wiating until you make them for leveling enchanting?


***

How are you doing on threat? There's a lot of... situational choices in your talent points that may better suited for threat.

conanobrian
03-04-2011, 06:09 PM
Ty. your post has already been quite helpful although i don't have the gold to do alot of the changes righ tnow.

As for the enchants I am leveling enchanting and that is the only reason anything is enchanted.

And yes threat has been a bit of an issue.

Loganisis
03-04-2011, 10:55 PM
I thought threat would be an issue, you've skipped a lot of threat talents for marginal utilty talents.

First though, gems - it's not ideal, but you can usually find most +30 or +15/+15 gems for ~8/9g. So it's a fairly cheap way to get 75% of the value of the gems you should be using.

Gold - make sure you run the dailies. You can make 500g a day easily by running the 25 dailies (Tol Barad + Deepholm is a great concentration of dailies) through the rewards and selling the grays and DE-ing the greens and auctioning the mats if you don't need them for leveling anymore. I'd do the dailies in your fury set though. I never liked prot for soloing, takes too long to kill things.

***

Talents - take all 3 points out of blood craze. Put 2 in Cruelty.

Take all points out of arms and redistribute them as such:
3/3 War Academy
2/2 Field Dressing
3/3 Deep Wounds

Getting to 3/3 in deep wounds is the best use of talent points from a TPS standpoint outside of the prot tree. So you'll still have 10 points outside prot, but they'll be in more TPS-centric.

You don't need war drums to make sure you have rage for interrupts, you should have plenty and second wind is too situational. There are a few packs that do stun a fair bit, but not enough to make this useful across the board. It's really a PvP talent.

take the 2 points out of Impending victory which is nice, but only useful for the last 20% of a fight and put them in Heavy repercussions. Especially if threat is an issue, you should be keeping shield block on CD and then using SS while it's active. HR will cause extra damage (threat). Later, as you get used to your rotation, you might end up saving SB for special situations, but right now it's going to more useful for you to use it for threat.

This next part is personal preference and I'm sure there will be some who disagree with me. But I'd take the 2 points out of Gag Order and the 2 points out of Thunderstruck and put them in Incite and get Sheild Mastery up to 3/3.

The reasoning is this - I run heroics with guildies. We overgear the encounters, but I still mark kill order for the smoothest runs. 3/3 Incite will make Deep Wounds even better for threat and if you mark Skull then X, your rend + blood and thunder reapplication should keep all other mobs well aggro'd on you.

Then after skull and X are dead, you can tab-cycle to make sure no one gets too high on the others before they die. Shield mastery maxed will just help generate more rage. Maybe it isn't needed, but I like to be swimming in threat as a tank.

For thunderstruck, the extra damage is nice, but really not needed, even in heroics, because so little of it is on the target that matters most - skull. Skull will usually be dead before you can get 3 TCs on him, so you're never really getting the full benefit and with TC reapplying rend to the other mobs, cleave and revenge usage, you'll have plenty of threat on the other mobs once you get to them. So, while nice, I'm not a big fan of Thunderstruck.

Gag order really only gives you a 3 second silence, which is really all you're getting for the 2 talent points. With shield bash, shockwave, and concussive blow (and if you're at distance, charge), and also intimidating shout, I've never found myself really wishing I had a silence.

conanobrian
03-05-2011, 12:18 AM
Can i ask. Y should parry be higher than dodge? I thought dodge avoided damage completely while parry only prevented some.

Sky
03-05-2011, 12:29 AM
Gemming

Loganisis
03-05-2011, 01:00 AM
Dodge and parry are avoidance. If you dodge OR parry, you avoid 100% of damage.

Block, at this point, is RNG mitigation (if sheild block is not active). You have a ~50% chance of blocking 30% of the incoming damage or 60% if it is a crit block.

While it would seem that dodge and parry would be better to go for... They aren't. The reason is your healers would rather 100% of incoming attacks are only at 70% (40% with crit) of their potential damage so they can use smaller, more mana efficient heals. Unless they are pallies.

if you were to go full dodge/parry over mastery, you would receive less total damage, but you would have more 100% of possible damage strikes which would be the type that would require healers to use bigger, less efficient heals, which, in a worst case scenario, would cause the healer to OOM.


***

Now, as to why Parry should be ~2.5% higher than dodge, that is because of hold the line. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=84621

Hold the Line works well with large amounts of mastery, so because parry gives more than just avoidance, it also gives an increased chance of crit block for attacks in the next 10 seconds, parry is slightly more valuable than dodge.

Without Hold the Line you would want dodge = parry because they have the same rate of diminishing returns.

So if hold the line didn't exist and you had 2500 dodge and 2000 parry, you would have less total avoidance, due to diminishing returns than if you had 2250 dodge and 2250 parry since those 500 points of dodge that you have more of than parry would be subject to higher diminishing returns (giving you less actual dodge per point).

But because of Hold the Line and it's interaction with block, you have better overall survivability than in you had dodge = parry.



This is the (hopefully) layman's version of it. Koji or someone else that better understands the math involved would have to explain the details in depth if you want that... and I think they have, there's probably a few threads floating around explaining the math involved.

Kerchunk
03-08-2011, 04:47 PM
Can i ask. Y should parry be higher than dodge? I thought dodge avoided damage completely while parry only prevented some.

I keep hearing this misinformation. I argued with a Prot Warrior in my raid the other night for 20 minutes about this. Where did this rumor start? Why do people believe it? Can't they look at combat logs like everyone else?

So strange...

Kazeyonoma
03-08-2011, 06:02 PM
There was a period during cataclysm beta, where they changed parry to instead of avoiding an attack 100% and hastening your next attack (like it's always been and is even now) to reduce the next 2 attacks by 50%. So you'd have dodge = 100% avoidance, parry = 2x 50% mitigation, and block = 30% mitigation without DRs (60% critical if you're a warrior). They ended up removing this change to parry on the beta because they just didn't like how it worked out especially with potentially overriding parry "charges". It's old info, and people just never got up to date on it.

needamazing
03-09-2011, 09:05 AM
Great thread! Really helped me out. I have one question

Do I need minimum hit rating and expertise before reforging and gemming everything to Mastery? Or do I need to concentrate on survivability first. I am just now getting through all the normal dungeons and have yet to get to Heroics. I'm decently geared for normals with an ilevel of 347 but I am learning the fights. I have yet to get into 3 or 4 of the dungeons

My armory
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/akama/degenoll/advanced

MellvarTank
03-09-2011, 09:31 AM
You won't want to totally trash all of your hit/expertise while running dungeons, but you can move some of it around to mastery.

needamazing
03-09-2011, 03:40 PM
My hit is at 2.5% and my expertise is 12 after I gemmed and reforged for mastery. Did I go too far? I seemed to do OK last night but as I want to do Heroics what hit / expertise would you recommend you at least need

Kazeyonoma
03-09-2011, 04:05 PM
you're fine, just execute your rotation well, and be fast on taunting if you get a few dodge/parry/misses early on pulls.

Deathwish238
03-10-2011, 06:29 PM
What Meta are you all using? I'm using +1% SB now but am considering the Effulgent -2% Spell Damage Taken. The Warrior's biggest weakness is Spell Damage after all.


My hit is at 2.5% and my expertise is 12 after I gemmed and reforged for mastery. Did I go too far? I seemed to do OK last night but as I want to do Heroics what hit / expertise would you recommend you at least need

Tanking is more than just reducing damage you take. Tanking is preventing damage from hitting your allies and if you're not holding threat you won't be doing that well.

My mins are 5% for Hit and 23 for Expertise. I hate having my specials not land, especially during the beginning of fights or when my DPS don't give me much time(which is often these days).

Stack Mastery after you have 5% Hit and 23 Expertise. Don't gem Stam, way better to more mitigation/avoidance than a little more stam. We already have a lot of HP, unlike when we did ICC and everyone stacked Stam.

Loganisis
03-10-2011, 08:05 PM
My hit right now is 0.64% and expertise is 3, all racial, and I have no threat problems (though I'm not doing heroic raids either). Dungeons, raids, it's the same. If DPS wants to rip of me at the beginning of a fight by not giving me 3 GCDs (HT/Charge + Rend + TC to grab packs and HT/CHarge + SS + Shockwave for guaranteed threat for bosses) before popping in, they can tank. If they want to pop all their CDs in the first 5 seconds, they can tank. Hit + Expertise won't let me keep threat on over-eager DPS.

Sub heroic raiding, even with a 346 weapon, you shouldn't lose threat if you have a good rotation, good threat talents (and really, the utility talents are very meh to me) and DPS that understands how threat works in Cata. My GL's ret pally that rides my ass into a fight ends up tanking a lot.

5% hit and 23 expertise is 1290 rating. 1290 rating is equal to:
7.3% dodge/parry (before diminishing returns)
7.2 mastery which is = 10.8% block + 10.8% crit block.

You're giving up a lot of damage reduction for something you don't need (interrupt duty excluded until 4.1) unless you're running heroics and need every ounce of DPS.


The meta I use is the 2% armor increase. Magic damage is unmitigatable without a CD, but 2% reduction for a fairly limited number of attacks doesn't excite me as much as 2% armor increase that is almost always useful. I've got LS+ER or SW or the TB Faction trinket for magic damage.

*****

Educate DPS about the way threat works in cata (vengence), mark kill priorities, and things work pretty well.

trueX
03-12-2011, 10:28 PM
Another method vs going all out mastery in each slot yellow and blue is one I follow, comes down to personal preference.

Meta - +81 Stam / 2% Increased Armor from items - Austere Shadowspirit Diamond
Red - +20 Parry / +30 Stam - Defender's Demonseye
Yellow - +20 Mastery / +30 Stam - Puissant Dream Emerald
Blue - +60 Stam - Solid Ocean Sapphire

You could go for +40 mastery in yellows but I just dont like giving up 20 mastery for 30 stam, you lose a net gain of 10 stats. Call me crazy but thats why I do it, my avoidance is not an issue atm nor is stam, but stam is 100% and have always been a stam whore. And seeing as how Vengeance = gaining 5% of the dmg taken as attack power, up to a maximum of 10% of your health, the more health you have the more attack power you can gain. And since all our powers for the most part are based off attack power, more health = more attack power = higher threat, allowing less hit and expertise and more avoidance in a roundabout way.

Hope that makes some sense.

Katzazi
03-13-2011, 05:09 AM
trueX:
Stamina is and was only as important for survive in progression content to help you not get 2 or 3 shot. Before entering heroic raids, you will not be in such a situations. On the contrary, your gear will already have high stamina. The changes you can add with stamina gems are not as big as they were in Wrath. (It will affect less than 10% - more like 5% - of your stamina). At the same time mastery will save tons of mana, because healers can switch over to cheaper heals. Sure, it's also only some percentages there, but those help you all the time.

If you don't need more stamina, because the healer does not heal all the stamina you have, "10 more stats" stamina are not worth it. Btw just because one says 30 and another stat says 40 does not mean anything. Blizz balances the stats against each other. And stamina is treated differently than secondary stats, anyway.

The first time one should wory about HP is when entering heroic raids. And even then people may be fine with the mastery they have.

Loganisis
03-13-2011, 03:49 PM
Another method vs going all out mastery in each slot yellow and blue is one I follow, comes down to personal preference.

Meta - +81 Stam / 2% Increased Armor from items - Austere Shadowspirit Diamond
Red - +20 Parry / +30 Stam - Defender's Demonseye
Yellow - +20 Mastery / +30 Stam - Puissant Dream Emerald
Blue - +60 Stam - Solid Ocean Sapphire

You could go for +40 mastery in yellows but I just dont like giving up 20 mastery for 30 stam, you lose a net gain of 10 stats. Call me crazy but thats why I do it, my avoidance is not an issue atm nor is stam, but stam is 100% and have always been a stam whore. And seeing as how Vengeance = gaining 5% of the dmg taken as attack power, up to a maximum of 10% of your health, the more health you have the more attack power you can gain. And since all our powers for the most part are based off attack power, more health = more attack power = higher threat, allowing less hit and expertise and more avoidance in a roundabout way.

Hope that makes some sense.

This is more the thinking of heroic raid tanks. Normal raids, gemming for stamina over mastery (parry/stam over parry/mastery --- pure stam over mastery/stam --- mastery/stam over pure mastery) will make you harder to heal. As you get the gear for heroic raids, then you're close to 85% dodge/parry/bock even when pushing stamina to survive the bigger hits.

Entry level tanks should gem mastery and then cycle to stamina-oriented as they proceed into heroics until heroic gear gives them enough stamina they can go back to maxing mastery.

Kahmal
03-13-2011, 09:16 PM
Shouldn't we only use Parry/Stam only if the socket bonus is really worth it? I mean 20 parry really isn't much is it even before considering DR

klausi
03-13-2011, 10:24 PM
20 parry rating are 20 parry rating. I get from socket boni mastery, dodge, parry and stamina.. unless you're wearing dps pieces i can't see a reason not to socket for the bonus.

Loganisis
03-13-2011, 10:29 PM
@Kahmal - the thing is, everything "isn't much" when looked at individually. 250 armor on a cloak when you already have 35000 armor? It's fractional damage reduction. 20 parry? Same thing.

You add all those pieces together and then it makes it worth while.

Personally, unless the need for stamina was overwhelming, I would go Red=parry/mastery rather than parry/sta, but it depends on what content you're into in the game.

Katzazi
03-14-2011, 06:04 AM
Shouldn't we only use Parry/Stam only if the socket bonus is really worth it? I mean 20 parry really isn't much is it even before considering DR

No you should only not socket for the bonus if the bonus is not usefull for survival at all (like hit on some mastery-hit itms) or if you really need the pure gem for something specific (like getting to 77.4% unhittabilty with mastery gem and a stamina socket). You just get overall more if you take all the (defensive) ratings you can get.

Deathwish238
03-15-2011, 12:06 AM
My hit right now is 0.64% and expertise is 3, all racial, and I have no threat problems (though I'm not doing heroic raids either). Dungeons, raids, it's the same. If DPS wants to rip of me at the beginning of a fight by not giving me 3 GCDs (HT/Charge + Rend + TC to grab packs and HT/CHarge + SS + Shockwave for guaranteed threat for bosses) before popping in, they can tank. If they want to pop all their CDs in the first 5 seconds, they can tank. Hit + Expertise won't let me keep threat on over-eager DPS.

Sub heroic raiding, even with a 346 weapon, you shouldn't lose threat if you have a good rotation, good threat talents (and really, the utility talents are very meh to me) and DPS that understands how threat works in Cata. My GL's ret pally that rides my ass into a fight ends up tanking a lot.

5% hit and 23 expertise is 1290 rating. 1290 rating is equal to:
7.3% dodge/parry (before diminishing returns)
7.2 mastery which is = 10.8% block + 10.8% crit block.

You're giving up a lot of damage reduction for something you don't need (interrupt duty excluded until 4.1) unless you're running heroics and need every ounce of DPS.


The meta I use is the 2% armor increase. Magic damage is unmitigatable without a CD, but 2% reduction for a fairly limited number of attacks doesn't excite me as much as 2% armor increase that is almost always useful. I've got LS+ER or SW or the TB Faction trinket for magic damage.

*****

Educate DPS about the way threat works in cata (vengence), mark kill priorities, and things work pretty well.

3 GCDs is a long time. My DPS don't need to wait that long if they attack Skull like they should be doing. They need to give me 1-2 GCDs at most.

I have tried running low Hit and Expertise and upping my mastery/avoidance. I noticed the difference instantly. I could see it clearly...missing devastates and shield slams. Yeah I could still tank well, but not as well as I could before. I was at the mercy of the RNG and when I was unlucky it was annoying and people took more damage.

To add to that, DPS is now more important than ever because everything has so much more HP. Yes we do more damage too, but the health increase of everything went up more than our damage increase. I love pulling 10k+ DPS as the Tank. It makes a difference on raid bosses and in Heroics.


So it's really up to preference, I enjoy my consistently high threat and dps. I pump mastery and my total dodge/parry/block is up to 72.56% while having 6% Hit and 23 Expertise. That's quite good imo. I get most of my Hit from my Cogwheel and my Expertise from reforging Hit to Expertise on other pieces...and I always have Mastery on every piece.

Loganisis
03-15-2011, 01:09 AM
3 GCDs is a long time. My DPS don't need to wait that long if they attack Skull like they should be doing. They need to give me 1-2 GCDs at most.

No it isn't.
0.0 HT + Charge + SB
1.5 Rend
3.0 TC <--- If they go before this, they're jumping the gun. That's just the way Cata is. If they don't want to learn the mechanics as they changed for cata, it's not your fault. Let them tank it.


I have tried running low Hit and Expertise and upping my mastery/avoidance. I noticed the difference instantly. I could see it clearly...missing devastates and shield slams. Yeah I could still tank well, but not as well as I could before. I was at the mercy of the RNG and when I was unlucky it was annoying and people took more damage.

Really? You have TC, which doesn't miss. And right after TC I use shockwave, which doesn't miss, plus stuns the mobs, and a cleave or revenge and you're going to town. Do I have some bad miss strings occassionally on the pull - yeah. Challenging shout usually takes care of that though.

Well marked kill order. DPS focus-firing rather than AoE-ing and problems solved. Don't play suboptimally because DPS plays suboptimally.


To add to that, DPS is now more important than ever because we have so much more HP. Yes we do more damage too, but the health increase of everything went up more than our damage increase. I love pulling 10k+ DPS as the Tank. It makes a difference on raid bosses and in Heroics.

So you love pulling high DPS. I love suriving fights where we're pushing the limits and I'm sitting at 10-20k HP for a large chunk of it because that's where we are in terms of progression. I guarantee you, that as the tank, progression fights, which is what theory-crafting is about, will be more successfull the less damage you take. It is nice seeing 10k on the chart, but if you want to get your chart numbers, OT the maggots for Magmaw. If you're struggling in a fight, unless it's a bleeding edge heroic raid (which is different than normals and definately different than heroics), I guarantee you that reducing the number of unmitigated/avoided hits (72.5% = 27.5% left, ~7% dodge/parry you gave up for hit/exp = 25% fewer) by 25% and the subsequent reduction in healer stress will go farther. It isn't shown on the meters nearly as easily, but it's more important.


So it's really up to preference, I enjoy my consistently high threat and dps. I pump mastery and my total dodge/parry/block is up to 72.56% while having 6% Hit and 23 Expertise. That's quite good imo. I get most of my Hit from my Cogwheel and my Expertise from reforging Hit to Expertise on other pieces...and I always have Mastery on every piece.

You're right. It is a preference. A preference to be okay with being sub-optimal in encounters you outgear, or min/max your toon. If it's a fight you're pushing your limits as a raid, survivialbity will far exceed any benefit you recieve from extra, unnecessary threat, and limited DPS gains which, if they are critical in the first place, will be much more efficiently obtain through your DPS improving.


*****

If you want to play a high hit/exp build because it's less stressful, that's fine. That's how you enjoy WoW. But don't offer it as a legitmiate comparison to tanks looking to push. You greatly overgear all heroics. You're not pushing content.

Katzazi
03-15-2011, 03:26 AM
If you like big numbers in heroic 5mans, you get much higher numbers when going the survival route, because you will be able to go without CC and tank everything when you have got few raid items. Yes, you can do it WotLK-style like. And since all those mobs hit you, you have high Vengeance and do high dmg on all of them. I'm doing it nearly everwhere now, and I've still some blue items left. (There are some exceptions where CC actually makes the encounters faster, like the healers in Vortex or stuff like that.) And my healers are bored most of the time.

You cannot do the same thing without stressing out your healers when you go for hit and expertise. Single target (or few target) trash fighting even with hit and expertise caps don't let you do high dps. The difference in Vengeance is much more than 25% hits more connecting. Vengeance more or less scales with the number of mobs that hit you. (Sure a survival build takes less dmg per mob, so this has to be factored in, but even if one additional mob only adds 50% more, that's more than your 25%.)

I'm fighting for #1 in heroic 5mans most of the time as a tank with hit and expertise as low as possible and even without going for Deep Wounds. If I need more dmg I would switch over to a DW build. And when raiding, I have missdirect or stuff like that for the start. And people know the drill to not open up with all CDs popped. I get no complains about low threat or stuff. On the contrary some dps have called me a dmg whore. And there are those moments where you do much more dmg when you just don't die. But more important it's not a wipe and you may even be able to finish the encounter.

Deathwish238
03-16-2011, 12:31 AM
You cannot do the same thing without stressing out your healers when you go for hit and expertise. Single target (or few target) trash fighting even with hit and expertise caps don't let you do high dps. The difference in Vengeance is much more than 25% hits more connecting. Vengeance more or less scales with the number of mobs that hit you. (Sure a survival build takes less dmg per mob, so this has to be factored in, but even if one additional mob only adds 50% more, that's more than your 25%.)

I'm fighting for #1 in heroic 5mans most of the time as a tank with hit and expertise as low as possible and even without going for Deep Wounds. If I need more dmg I would switch over to a DW build. And when raiding, I have missdirect or stuff like that for the start. And people know the drill to not open up with all CDs popped. I get no complains about low threat or stuff. On the contrary some dps have called me a dmg whore. And there are those moments where you do much more dmg when you just don't die. But more important it's not a wipe and you may even be able to finish the encounter.

You're saying I can't do the same thing with hit/exp...but I do. Maybe it's because I like to always debuff/stun/interrupt/disarm, etc...but my healers don't struggle when I'm tanking a heroic. I've been running a lot lately with a druid helping gear them up and even in the beginning she healed me fine wearing 1/4 green gear and the rest pvp gear.

My current build has 1 DW, 3 WA, 2 Cruelty, 3 Incite.




No it isn't.
0.0 HT + Charge + SB
1.5 Rend
3.0 TC <--- If they go before this, they're jumping the gun. That's just the way Cata is. If they don't want to learn the mechanics as they changed for cata, it's not your fault. Let them tank it.


3 GCDs is 4.5 seconds. 2 GCDs is 3.0 seconds.

But that's the thing, I don't need to let them tank it.


Really? You have TC, which doesn't miss. And right after TC I use shockwave, which doesn't miss, plus stuns the mobs, and a cleave or revenge and you're going to town. Do I have some bad miss strings occassionally on the pull - yeah. Challenging shout usually takes care of that though.

Well marked kill order. DPS focus-firing rather than AoE-ing and problems solved. Don't play suboptimally because DPS plays suboptimally.


TC doesn't really do that much for aggro other than spread rend. The core of a warrior's threat is shield slam, revenge, devastate...all of those can miss or be dodge/parried.

On top of that, if I miss too many white attacks I end up chancing rage starvation. Rage starved plus lower threat are not good combinations.


So you love pulling high DPS. I love suriving fights where we're pushing the limits and I'm sitting at 10-20k HP for a large chunk of it because that's where we are in terms of progression. I guarantee you, that as the tank, progression fights, which is what theory-crafting is about, will be more successfull the less damage you take. It is nice seeing 10k on the chart, but if you want to get your chart numbers, OT the maggots for Magmaw. If you're struggling in a fight, unless it's a bleeding edge heroic raid (which is different than normals and definately different than heroics), I guarantee you that reducing the number of unmitigated/avoided hits (72.5% = 27.5% left, ~7% dodge/parry you gave up for hit/exp = 25% fewer) by 25% and the subsequent reduction in healer stress will go farther. It isn't shown on the meters nearly as easily, but it's more important.



You're right. It is a preference. A preference to be okay with being sub-optimal in encounters you outgear, or min/max your toon. If it's a fight you're pushing your limits as a raid, survivialbity will far exceed any benefit you recieve from extra, unnecessary threat, and limited DPS gains which, if they are critical in the first place, will be much more efficiently obtain through your DPS improving.


*****

If you want to play a high hit/exp build because it's less stressful, that's fine. That's how you enjoy WoW. But don't offer it as a legitmiate comparison to tanks looking to push. You greatly overgear all heroics. You're not pushing content.

I'm not going to be able to squeeze out 7% more avoidance. It'll be closer to 3% because I will be losing some Mastery in order to reforge the other smaller stat...and I can't get rid of every bit of hit/expertise. The biggest change I can make is my Cogwheel. I'll try going max avoidance/mitigation for tomorrow's raid...see how it feels. I haven't tried doing so in 4.0.6. But still, 3% less out of 27.5% is about 10% less unmitigated hits. Though it's closer to 5% because of shield block, but that's not the point.


Perhaps I need to respec and take Battle Trance to help make up for rage issues I might have.

Loganisis
03-16-2011, 01:25 AM
You're saying I can't do the same thing with hit/exp...but I do. Maybe it's because I like to always debuff/stun/interrupt/disarm, etc...but my healers don't struggle when I'm tanking a heroic. I've been running a lot lately with a druid helping gear them up and even in the beginning she healed me fine wearing 1/4 green gear and the rest pvp gear.

My current build has 1 DW, 3 WA, 2 Cruelty, 3 Incite.

If you're worried about threat you need 3/3 in DW. It is THE single best TPS ability among the optional abilities.

And of course she shouldn't have problems healing you. You're gear level would indicate you should be attempting Nef. You have a 353 item level, which pretty well outgears heroics.


3 GCDs is 4.5 seconds. 2 GCDs is 3.0 seconds.

But that's the thing, I don't need to let them tank it.

No, on a pull, 3 GCDs is 3 seconds.

You start at 0 seconds <--- this is the pull and the first GCD.

GCD #1, time = 0 seconds, Heroic Throw (Off GCD) + Charge + SB (off GCD)
GCD #2, Time = 1.5 seconds, Rend
GCD #3, TIme = 3.0 seconds, TC
GCD #4, Time = 4.5 seconds <--- 4.5 seconds is 4 GCDs off the pull



TC doesn't really do that much for aggro other than spread rend. The core of a warrior's threat is shield slam, revenge, devastate...all of those can miss or be dodge/parried.

On top of that, if I miss too many white attacks I end up chancing rage starvation. Rage starved plus lower threat are not good combinations.

o_O Read what you said. All TC does is spread Rend around. EXACTLY. With Rend on off targets, your SS on Skull, cleaves + revenges on skull, you've got all the AoE threat you need.

You can maintain threat easily if DPS doesn't blow their load too quickly (which is their fault, not yours) even missing 30% of your attacks (8% miss, 6.5% dodge, 14% parry for 28.5% total fail to land). Vengance makes this very possible.

Missing white attacks does not rage starve you. Your rage comes from blocking (Shield mastery) or spell reflection (against single-target bosses that like to just cast... VP I'm looking at you). DPS gets rage predominately from blocking, which again, makes mastery even better.

I don't know how you can be rage starved in fights other than those where there's very few incoming melee attacks. If it's an issue, lay off the HS.


I'm not going to be able to squeeze out 7% more avoidance. It'll be closer to 3% because I will be losing some Mastery in order to reforge the other smaller stat...and I can't get rid of every bit of hit/expertise. The biggest change I can make is my Cogwheel. I'll try going max avoidance/mitigation for tomorrow's raid...see how it feels. I haven't tried doing so in 4.0.6. But still, 3% less out of 27.5% is about 10% less unmitigated hits. Though it's closer to 5% because of shield block, but that's not the point.

With diminishing returns, it will still be close 7% if you get all 6% hit 23 expertise from what could have been dodge or parry. And where would you be losing mastery? Reposting from above:

5% hit and 23 expertise is 1290 rating. 1290 rating is equal to:
7.3% dodge/parry (before diminishing returns)
7.2 mastery which is = 10.8% block + 10.8% crit block.

That doesn't come out of mastery at all. 1290 rating that's currently in hit/exp that could be in dodge/parry with better itemized gear or reforging.

I have no idea where you think you're losing mastery. It's 7%, which is nearly 25%.


Perhaps I need to respec and take Battle Trance to help make up for rage issues I might have.

Battle trance won't do you any good. With it only proc-ing off SS, which is every 6 seconds without a SnB proc, and then it's a 15% proc chance with 3/3 talented, you're not going to see any rage improvement.

*****

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/Chromaggus/Bragnix/advanced

Gems:
Hit cogwheel = dodge (probably)
Blue = Mastery/Sta
Yellow/Prismatic = Mastery
Red = Parry/Mastery

You have a number of very easily obtainable upgrades, they can simply be bought.

Neck = http://www.wowhead.com/item=57932 (JP vendor item) or http://www.wowhead.com/item=56319out of heroic blackrock caverns

Shoulders are tough: Options are all drops. But the sta/dodge enchant is a vendor item. Therezane rep

Cloak: http://www.wowhead.com/item=62383 Mt Hyjal Exalted

Chest - Great option - but mastery should come from Expertise, not parry.

Wrist - BiS sub raiding

Gloves - http://www.wowhead.com/item=58105 <- JP purchasable. Use the mastery enchant over the expertise enchant. Current gem should be parry/mastery

Waist - Gemming mastery/stam would be equal to pure mastery like you have. your choice.

Legs - Clear you're trying to get the most you can out of your DPS legs. Not horrible at all with all that mastery, but obviously you're not looking to reforge it every time (or else the hit to dodge/parry if you will reforge as needed)

Rings - 2 purchaseable rings (crafted + therezane) that would be as good as any other 346s for tanking: http://www.wowhead.com/item=52320 (crafted - have a JC alt or guildy?) http://www.wowhead.com/item=62351 (Threzane)

Soulblade - Hit to dodge/parry

Trinkets are tough, but if you do the TB dailies - http://www.wowhead.com/item=62471 to go along with the crab.

Range - good as nearly all, if not all. Range stinks for tanks.


With your current gear and some of the choices you've made that represent big investments (chest/legs) you won't be able to drop all hit/exp, so it may not be a full 7%, but it will be much closer to 7% than you think.

Your threat will decrease a little, but with a good rotation, 3/3 deep wounds, and marking kill priority, you shouldn't have more than an occasional problem (and then with overactive pugs).

Katzazi
03-16-2011, 02:36 AM
You're saying I can't do the same thing with hit/exp...but I do.
To recap the discussion: You said that you do prefere hit/expertise, because you were woried that else the overall group dmg would be to low, if you as a tank did not contribute that much. My answer in the post you are replaying to with the above quote was (beside other points), that I go full out survival (mastery+dodge/parry) I'm fighting for #1 dmg in most heroic 5mans.

Why do you think that more dmg should be a concern, again?


Maybe it's because I like to always debuff/stun/interrupt/disarm, etc
Well I subsumed stuff like that into "CC". I was speaking about going WotLK-style. I did all the above stuff earlier. And I think it probably was more fun, it at least let me feel better. But I don't need to bother with debffs/stuns/interrupts/disarms most of the time. I can do it and I like to do it and if needed I will do it. But why should I do it, when mobs just give me rage and don't dare me anymo


My current build has 1 DW, 3 WA, 2 Cruelty, 3 Incite.

I've a piercing howl build, I personally stick to utility until I see that I need something else, but for normal raids I've no problem with this build. (However I don't advice this build for others.) So you neither need hit/expertise nor an optimal threat build, to be so high in dmg that dps should start to complain.

Anyway - if you are concerned about your dmg/dps/threat: max out DW. It gives you the most.



Perhaps I need to respec and take Battle Trance to help make up for rage issues I might have.
I again don't get your point. If you are doing what I do, than you should be floating in rage (with the exception of singel bosses with special mechanics, i.e. robot in deathmines). Just because you can dodge/spell-reflect so many mobs more or less all the time, and most bosses hit hard enough anyway at current gear levels. White hits is not the main source of rage for warrior tanks.

Btw: If blizz would assume that tanks should be hit capped all the time they would not have made the change for taunts never missing and probably would not do the changes to interrupts never missing in 4.1.



On top of that, if I miss too many white attacks I end up chancing rage starvation. Rage starved plus lower threat are not good combinations.
Again: In every normal situation warrior tanks don't have to rely on white hits for rage. And we are supposed to get to low rage now and again. That was part of why blizz did change rage for Cata, so you are supposed to be able to "work" even with low rage. However, I seldom have rage problem while beeing prot. But the second part of your comment bothers me more: You have taunts. So if you have low rage and low inital threat you are able to cover this. I'm not saying that taunt should be a part of your rotation. But taunts ARE a part of your toolbox. Don't neglect parts of your toolbox. And don't tell me that you need your taunts for anything else. Sure there are those taunt-switching encounters - even when we are thankfully out of ICC - but you have Vigilance to ensure that you can taunt at the right moment. The main idea of taunt is to give the tank an option if she is unlucky with her threat for some time.

Deathwish238
03-16-2011, 06:24 AM
I do appreciate all the replies and my apologies to the OP for threadjacking lol.


I asked about metas earlier...don't think I saw a reply so I'll ask again...

What Meta are you all using? I'm using +1% SB now but am considering the Effulgent -2% Spell Damage Taken. The Warrior's biggest weakness is Spell Damage after all.


To add to that, if I don't change to -2% Spell Damage I'm gonna change it to +2% Armor.




With diminishing returns, it will still be close 7% if you get all 6% hit 23 expertise from what could have been dodge or parry. And where would you be losing mastery? Reposting from above:

5% hit and 23 expertise is 1290 rating. 1290 rating is equal to:
7.3% dodge/parry (before diminishing returns)
7.2 mastery which is = 10.8% block + 10.8% crit block.

That doesn't come out of mastery at all. 1290 rating that's currently in hit/exp that could be in dodge/parry with better itemized gear or reforging.

I have no idea where you think you're losing mastery. It's 7%, which is nearly 25%.


Some pieces will make me lose Mastery, like Gloves of the Greymane Walls. 205 Parry and 114 Expertise. Obviously I get more Mastery reforging the Parry even if my total avoidance/mitigation is less than if I reforged Expertise.

However, my current build is trying to push Mastery as much as possible as the expense of everything else. I put the most Mastery I could on every piece.


Good catch about Battle trance btw.


Battle trance won't do you any good. With it only proc-ing off SS, which is every 6 seconds without a SnB proc, and then it's a 15% proc chance with 3/3 talented, you're not going to see any rage improvement.

*****

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/Chromaggus/Bragnix/advanced

Gems:
Hit cogwheel = dodge (probably)
Blue = Mastery/Sta
Yellow/Prismatic = Mastery
Red = Parry/Mastery

You have a number of very easily obtainable upgrades, they can simply be bought.

Neck = http://www.wowhead.com/item=57932 (JP vendor item) or http://www.wowhead.com/item=56319out of heroic blackrock caverns

Shoulders are tough: Options are all drops. But the sta/dodge enchant is a vendor item. Therezane rep

Cloak: http://www.wowhead.com/item=62383 Mt Hyjal Exalted

Chest - Great option - but mastery should come from Expertise, not parry.

Wrist - BiS sub raiding

Gloves - http://www.wowhead.com/item=58105 <- JP purchasable. Use the mastery enchant over the expertise enchant. Current gem should be parry/mastery

Waist - Gemming mastery/stam would be equal to pure mastery like you have. your choice.

Legs - Clear you're trying to get the most you can out of your DPS legs. Not horrible at all with all that mastery, but obviously you're not looking to reforge it every time (or else the hit to dodge/parry if you will reforge as needed)

Rings - 2 purchaseable rings (crafted + therezane) that would be as good as any other 346s for tanking: http://www.wowhead.com/item=52320 (crafted - have a JC alt or guildy?) http://www.wowhead.com/item=62351 (Threzane)

Soulblade - Hit to dodge/parry

Trinkets are tough, but if you do the TB dailies - http://www.wowhead.com/item=62471 to go along with the crab.

Range - good as nearly all, if not all. Range stinks for tanks.


With your current gear and some of the choices you've made that represent big investments (chest/legs) you won't be able to drop all hit/exp, so it may not be a full 7%, but it will be much closer to 7% than you think.

Your threat will decrease a little, but with a good rotation, 3/3 deep wounds, and marking kill priority, you shouldn't have more than an occasional problem (and then with overactive pugs).

I'll buy the Neck when I have nothing else to spend points on(almost there)...same for the Hands. I'll probably buy the Hands before the Neck. I'm working on my cloak atm. Therazene rep is after that.

Don't even get me started on shoulders XD

My legs were a lucky drop from BH. I actually like them more than the tank set legs...and I don't care much about my DPS set, I'll gimp a piece for my Tank set.

The ring will come with Therazene rep and I'm not going to spend almost two weeks of JC tokens for that ring. Rather, I'll be getting a ring as my next valor piece.

I'm exalted with BH already....but I'm not getting one of their trinkets for tanking.


To recap the discussion: You said that you do prefere hit/expertise, because you were woried that else the overall group dmg would be to low, if you as a tank did not contribute that much. My answer in the post you are replaying to with the above quote was (beside other points), that I go full out survival (mastery+dodge/parry) I'm fighting for #1 dmg in most heroic 5mans.

Why do you think that more dmg should be a concern, again?

No...I didn't say I'm worried about DPS in the group being low. I'm saying it matters in raids now more than ever. I'm saying it's nice when I'm pulling 10K dps.



Well I subsumed stuff like that into "CC". I was speaking about going WotLK-style. I did all the above stuff earlier. And I think it probably was more fun, it at least let me feel better. But I don't need to bother with debffs/stuns/interrupts/disarms most of the time. I can do it and I like to do it and if needed I will do it. But why should I do it, when mobs just give me rage and don't dare me anymo



I've a piercing howl build, I personally stick to utility until I see that I need something else, but for normal raids I've no problem with this build. (However I don't advice this build for others.) So you neither need hit/expertise nor an optimal threat build, to be so high in dmg that dps should start to complain.

When do you find yourself using Piercing Howl? I've thought about taking it before...but never really found much use outside of PvP.




Anyway - if you are concerned about your dmg/dps/threat: max out DW. It gives you the most.



I again don't get your point. If you are doing what I do, than you should be floating in rage (with the exception of singel bosses with special mechanics, i.e. robot in deathmines). Just because you can dodge/spell-reflect so many mobs more or less all the time, and most bosses hit hard enough anyway at current gear levels. White hits is not the main source of rage for warrior tanks.

Btw: If blizz would assume that tanks should be hit capped all the time they would not have made the change for taunts never missing and probably would not do the changes to interrupts never missing in 4.1.

Valid point for blizz making taunts not miss. I never said tanks should be hit capped...I generally say 5% hit and 23 exp, but...it's not set in stone it's preference.


Again: In every normal situation warrior tanks don't have to rely on white hits for rage. And we are supposed to get to low rage now and again. That was part of why blizz did change rage for Cata, so you are supposed to be able to "work" even with low rage. However, I seldom have rage problem while beeing prot. But the second part of your comment bothers me more: You have taunts. So if you have low rage and low inital threat you are able to cover this. I'm not saying that taunt should be a part of your rotation. But taunts ARE a part of your toolbox. Don't neglect parts of your toolbox. And don't tell me that you need your taunts for anything else. Sure there are those taunt-switching encounters - even when we are thankfully out of ICC - but you have Vigilance to ensure that you can taunt at the right moment. The main idea of taunt is to give the tank an option if she is unlucky with her threat for some time.

I have rage issues in heroics. And no I'm not HS happy. I'm pretty good about getting aggro back when a DPS pulls using taunt and cc, that's not really my issue. Having high exp/hit just makes tanking a lot easier because of its high consistency.

Veldine
03-16-2011, 07:08 AM
Why wouldn't you get the BH trink for tanking? That thing is awesome for tanking...probably BiS prior to heroic raids and the 1 min CD is great.

Piercing howl is great if your OT'ing adds and stuff (ie. Maloriak or Magmaw). If you're just running 5 mans, I haven't found a great use for it except for maybe doing achievs (ie. the croc one in Lost City).

Loganisis
03-16-2011, 11:13 AM
Why wouldn't you get the BH trink for tanking? That thing is awesome for tanking...probably BiS prior to heroic raids and the 1 min CD is great.

^THIS! 321 mastery = is ~2.7% block and ~2.7% crit block. Plus it's the best magic damage reduction option available that you can get before getting raid drops (and even then?). At least until 4.1 drops and SB does this also.


I asked about metas earlier...don't think I saw a reply so I'll ask again...
Stamina/Armor meta

There aren't enough places that 2% magic damage will simply make any difference. 2% increase to armor isn't much either since the cap is something like 90k armor and we're sitting around 36-40k unbuffed, but it is consitent damage reduction for almost all damage you'll take. The block meta was much better when it was OP'd at 5% XD

I haven't looked at the stats in depth, but you're probably better off getting the T11 gloves > VP Ring. Ring would be 2nd.

Yes - the DPS pants aren't bad at all, it just makes the 2pc hard to get.


I'm still not seeing where you'd lose mastery - every option I listed has mastery and is fairly easy to obtain. You'd almost always be trading hit or exp for avoidance or mastery.

Deathwish238
03-16-2011, 05:49 PM
Reforged, respecced and gemmed(changed hit cog to parry cog). Now up to 74.96% block/parry/dodge(up 2.4%). Hit is at 3.55% and Exp at 12(down from 6% and 23). So 2.4% avoidance/mitigation was gained to give up 2.46% hit and 11 Exp. Or about 10% less unmitigated damage.


I haven't gotten the BH trinket yet because I have decent trinkets atm...I'll likely get it when I have enough tokens.


I lose Mastery in pieces where Dodge/Parry > Exp/Hit. Which is why my mastery only went up a little after reforging, my biggest gains came from Dodge/Parry.

Loganisis
03-16-2011, 10:44 PM
I don't get why you're losing mastery.

If gear is Dodge/Parry 2x hit/exp so you reforged dodge parry, and you replaced it with mastery/(dodge/parry) gear, you're going to see mastery and dodge/parry go up. You're reforging dodge/parry into mastery, right? You're in your PvP gear right now so I can't check.

Katzazi
03-17-2011, 06:18 AM
Piercing howl is great if your OT'ing adds and stuff (ie. Maloriak or Magmaw). If you're just running 5 mans, I haven't found a great use for it except for maybe doing achievs (ie. the croc one in Lost City).

Just because it came up: Beside of what was said here, there are some more encounters in 5mans where it's nice to have:
- Grim Batol 3. boss
- Grim Batol last boss
- Blackrock cavern last boss
All of them are done with some kiting. I often get groups where actually nobody has any slow and not the dps to kill the stuff soon enough. I cannot switch over to the said targets and stance dance to use hamstering, so a slowing shout can reduce the number of wipes a lot.

As I said, it's nothing I would recomment as a talent to use by everybody. And I'm monitoring the need to switch my spec to something more streamlined all the time. But the spec does not affect my survivability negatively, my dps is higher than that of the other tank I'm running with most of the time and I have no threat problems. Because of that I can get away with this spec at the moment. (If I come to the point where I just need more dps/threat it's just a few clicks and I have access to a lot more. That's a nice idea, too.)


P.S.: I've the same thoughts than Loganisis with your matery.

Deathwish238
03-17-2011, 05:49 PM
Spent a few hours in BWD. I noticed a huge difference in my threat. My DK OT was *easily* able to pull aggro from me when previously he would not have. I also had more trouble holding our top survival and ret DPS' threat. I would have to taunt aggro back when before it was a non issue.

Of course after less than a minute, Vengeance ramped up enough and the issue was moot...but it's still...not what I prefer. Perhaps I will change my weapon's enchant to Avalanche to help a little...not like Mending does much. I did tell them to chill a little as my new stats dropped my initial aggro and I can tell when they're holding back.



Sunburnt Pauldrons
Binds when picked up
Shoulder Plate
2474 Armor
+161 Strength
+337 Stamina
Red Socket
Socket Bonus: +10 Dodge Rating
Durability 80 / 80
Requires Level 85
Item Level 346
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 205 (1.16% @ L85).
Equip: Increases your hit rating by 111 (0.92% @ L85).




Reforge Dodge -> Mastery = +82 Mastery
Reforge Hit -> Mastery = +44 Mastery



I went from reforging Dodge to reforging Hit and thus lost 38 Mastery from that piece. I have a few pieces that have the same issue.

Loganisis
03-17-2011, 06:43 PM
I see what you're saying now with mastery - I was talking about changing gear entirely, not just how you reforge.

Going from 123 dodge + 82 mastery to 205 dodge + 44 mastery is basically:
123 + (82*1.5) = 123+123 = 246 dodge/parry/block (since block is 1.5% for basically the same amount of rating that dodge/parry is for 1%)
versus
205 + (44*1.5) = 205 + 66 = 271. So you did lose a little block, but you actually came out ahead by reforging hit in this case.

But that wasn't what I was talking about, I was talking about replacing (dodge/parry/block) / (hit/exp) gear with (dodge/parry/gear) / (dodge/parry/mastery) gear.

****

Avalanche is a very minimal TPS gain, it's literally like 50 DPS or something. ~600/5 times a minute (I think it was 5 ppm for 2.6 weapon speed according to the testing posted at wowhead) for 3000/60 = 50dps. Or something like that. Accuracy or Weapon Chain are better DPS weapon enchants.

Do you have logs or descriptions of which fight your raid members were pulling off of you.. was it on the trash? Create a thread in the HALP! forum about threat and we can look into it there. This is getting pretty OT for this thread.

As you don't have a kill in BWD and talking about OT pulling off and that would only happen with trash, not Halifus, I'm guessing it was on trash - and I'll say this much - I ran BWD recently with a less geared DK than me recently and he was signficantly above me in AoE threat, not that it really mattered much. We have great AoE, some classes just have better XD. Thunderstruck might help out a little, but I know in my case it was more than the limited increase thunderstruck would offer...

P.S. I would suggest either 2/2 in B+T or 0/2 in B+T - you're making the application of Rend RNG, which WILL cause AoE problems.

Deathwish238
03-18-2011, 05:21 PM
I can get new pieces, at least the jp ones. I was hoping I'ld be able to replace them with epics by now.

Looks like I'm gonna put a weapon chain back on. I like the -50% disarm duration, not having my shield has killed me before fighting the tougher trash in the beginning of BoT.

I haven't been keeping logs, but I'm going to do that for tonight's raid. Is there an addon you like?

A Ret Pally and Survival Hunter were able to pull off me in the beginning of fighting Omnotron. Previously, they challenged my threat but I could always keep it with perfect rotations...now I need to use my taunts wisely to hold aggro.

The DK OT was pulling off of me in the beginning of Omnotron as well...so obviously so that I had him pull the boss in the beginning after our first couple attempts...wasn't used to that. It's natural for a DK to have higher AoE threat than me.

With a 15 sec duration, Rend should usually stay up on targets if I use TC on CD. Thunderstruck will increase my single target threat a little while another point in Rend will help AoE a little but not increase single target DPS. I'll go back to 2/2 TB if I'm not happy with the loss of AoE.

Loganisis
03-18-2011, 06:03 PM
upload the logs to Worldoflogs.com. Create a profile, click on client, follow the instructions.

If you've never run /combatlog you're fine. If you have, delete the current file from your logs folder or you'll have to manually edit it before uploading.

Ret pally has burst. Ret pally that doesn't watch their threat is fail.

Surv hunter has ZERO reason to pull off of you on pull. He's got Misdirection and Feign Death. He needs to make use of his ablities.

If the DK has better threat than you, for ODS, you might think about vig-ing him and letting him start the pull and you grab the next activated.

****

If you use thunderclap on CD you're ABSOLUTELY going to have threat issues. TC doesn't hit for much. It's more of a defensive offensive ability in that it slows incoming attacks by 10%. And now, reapplies rend. Put 2/2 in B+T and use TC just before rend falls off, or take the point out of B+T and let rend fall of and reapply fresh, using TC only to refresh the debuff.

If you use TC on CD you're wasting almost 25% of your GCDs on one of your weakest hitting abilities.

You're looking at this all wrong.

Another point in B+T is still a single win because 1) You refresh rend with less than 3 seconds left it's better than a devestate and it refrshes the attack speed debuff. Knowing this will happen 100% of the time will free up ~2 GCDs every 18 seconds for harder hitting threat abilities than TC, which will be a big TPS increase.

Take it out of Thunderstruck or cruelty, but bet B+T to 2/2 or drop it completely.

****

In my sig is a link to a thread on basic tanking - it's not 100% accurate, there's some things I need to fix. But it's mostly there - but what I want you to do is scroll down until the links section and find the link to WarTotem's spreadsheet. Download it and open it up (Excel or ODS, which is what, Open Office which is freeware?). Plug your stats in and take a look at the different abilities (rotation tab) and talents (abilities tab?).

Play around with them and you'll see your approximate threat ceiling will change. It will help I think understand why you're having issues with threat.

Deathwish238
03-20-2011, 01:56 AM
upload the logs to Worldoflogs.com. Create a profile, click on client, follow the instructions.

If you've never run /combatlog you're fine. If you have, delete the current file from your logs folder or you'll have to manually edit it before uploading.

Ret pally has burst. Ret pally that doesn't watch their threat is fail.

Surv hunter has ZERO reason to pull off of you on pull. He's got Misdirection and Feign Death. He needs to make use of his ablities.

If the DK has better threat than you, for ODS, you might think about vig-ing him and letting him start the pull and you grab the next activated.

****


Should I have it delete logs everytime I upload?

For ODS, that's exactly what I ended up doing. By the time the 2nd golem was activated, my Vengeance would be 10-20% and so threat was easy.


If you use thunderclap on CD you're ABSOLUTELY going to have threat issues. TC doesn't hit for much. It's more of a defensive offensive ability in that it slows incoming attacks by 10%. And now, reapplies rend. Put 2/2 in B+T and use TC just before rend falls off, or take the point out of B+T and let rend fall of and reapply fresh, using TC only to refresh the debuff.

If you use TC on CD you're wasting almost 25% of your GCDs on one of your weakest hitting abilities.

You're looking at this all wrong.

Another point in B+T is still a single win because 1) You refresh rend with less than 3 seconds left it's better than a devestate and it refrshes the attack speed debuff. Knowing this will happen 100% of the time will free up ~2 GCDs every 18 seconds for harder hitting threat abilities than TC, which will be a big TPS increase.

Take it out of Thunderstruck or cruelty, but bet B+T to 2/2 or drop it completely.



TC on CD only for AoE. However, doing Grim Batol H was annoying without being able to rely on Rend always. I respecced and dropped Thunderstruck entirely(again lol) and kept Cruelty.



****

In my sig is a link to a thread on basic tanking - it's not 100% accurate, there's some things I need to fix. But it's mostly there - but what I want you to do is scroll down until the links section and find the link to WarTotem's spreadsheet. Download it and open it up (Excel or ODS, which is what, Open Office which is freeware?). Plug your stats in and take a look at the different abilities (rotation tab) and talents (abilities tab?).

Play around with them and you'll see your approximate threat ceiling will change. It will help I think understand why you're having issues with threat.

I'll play with the spreadsheet...didn't know it had been updated for 4.0.6 yet!

Loganisis
03-20-2011, 08:31 AM
The world of logs client gives you the option to delete the log after uploading.

The only catch is WOW needs to be closed when you upload it, otherwise it won't delete the file. Then you'll need to locate it manually and delete it. Basically it:
1. Uploads:
2. Asks you if you want to zip (archive) the file
3. Ask you if you want to delete the current log file. But it won't delete it if WoW is open.

edeesis
03-20-2011, 10:52 PM
Of course after less than a minute, Vengeance ramped up enough and the issue was moot...but it's still...not what I prefer.


I'm wondering here. You say here that you don't like DPS pulling off of you at the beginning of fights, so THAT'S why you use a lot of Hit/Expertise, so tell me: what use does that Hit/Expertise do for you after your Vengeance has ramped up, and please, don't tell me that it lends to your DPS, because seriously, the difference is not enough to make or break a Boss Kill. If a Boss dies at 1% because YOU weren't doing enough DPS, then it's not your fault, it's your DPS/healers.

Mastery > Parry >= Dodge is the way to go, because, while expertise and hit are useful at the beginning of a fight, their usefulness drops to null shortly after the beginning of the fight. The avoidance/mitigation stats of dodge, parry, and mastery are useful throughout the fight.

And btw, you are gimping yourself extremely by not having at least 77.4 Dodge+Parry+Block+Miss. If you don't have this, your shield block is not nearly as useful as it could be.

Icebreaker
03-21-2011, 01:20 AM
Totaly agree with all above, but... When your rend misses three times in a row at the very begining of multipull - it's a kind of frustrating:)
Just my 2 cents to share the situation I've experienced.

klausi
03-21-2011, 01:32 AM
what use does that Hit/Expertise do for you after your Vengeance has ramped up, and please, don't tell me that it lends to your DPS, because seriously, the difference is not enough to make or break a Boss Kill.
Every piece of the metagame has it's own, unique use and it really feels very underwhelming having your dps to not go all out for 30s or more and totally rely on vengeance to kick in and provide the required tps to do your job.
Take heroic Atramedes for example, if you miss one or even two (not unlikely with over 25% chance to not land an attack with zero hit/expertise) shield slams in a row your 372 geared fury/rets will pull aggro especially on 10 man with no tricks/md/thorns present.. A fury can even sunder to three, apply demoshout and thunderclap/rend before he starts raging and still conquer for the crown thanks to not having any aggro reduce tool at all.

Warrior (and Feral to a lesser extent due to Berserk) pulling/initial aggro toolset feels very clunky right now. Having HR providing 100% chance to land on top of the increased damage could change this.

Katzazi
03-21-2011, 02:14 AM
Sure, there will be encounters on heroic mode, where it's important that everybody can go full out right from the start.

However there are enough, where survivability and/or execution is much more important. For example you have to time when you hit the last phase at Chimäeron and Maloriak. You have to time when to blow down Conclave and Council elementals. You need controlled high dmg for that, not just max dmg full out. And you will save big dmg CDs for special moments during those encounters, and not blow them right at the beginning. Some of those encounters could be dangerous to the tanks. So it's probably not good to focus on threat stats as much for them (exception council, because of break before last phase, but if done right, its not especially dangerous for the tank).

Artramedes (and others) are not as dangerous for the tank. So it's less important to have high survivability there. And you may want to go full out really early. So threat during the first 30s may be important enough to go for more hit/expertise on those encounters. But you probably don't need to gem for them, if you have some pieces of gear to switch in and switch over food and elexiers or maybe do minor reforgings.

Remember it's only for the first part of the encounter. And there are only "few" people who would surpass you then. When they overtake you, they are fine until they don't reach 110% of your threat (which can happen quite easily with some crits/proccs). But even then, it's ok, if you can ensure that the boss never hits anybody else via a taunt. It may be close for a while, but "close" is enough if everybody can controll themselves.