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fr33d4n
03-04-2011, 01:41 AM
Hello,

with the recent buffs to SMF (20% more dmg), flurry (50% attack speed) and now precision (40% more white dmg) something is not right.

If that goes live, autoattacks will be like 60% or so of total warrior dmg and that smells funny. They will change something. For sure. And I don't know why but I hope it isn't flurry.

Does anyone expected the change on Precision? Was it necessary? Not for me. In fact, having a 50% attack speed flurry its pretty OP for me. But at least solves our rage "starvation" problem and maybe we will use Inner Rage more often.

Disruptor
03-04-2011, 04:27 AM
If Blizzard continues like this Fury will be the new Wotlk Rogue. I imagine that most Furys complained about their spec beeing already too complex. Usually Fury was the easy DPS-Spec. Arms became so complex that world-top people deny switching to Arms. Since Fury became a little more complex people were not satisfied with their output. Blizzard reacts and Fury will end up with more "autohit"-damage and Arms is getting easier to play to make it availible to a wider community.

They try to balance the output between TG and SMF.

Erkebrand
03-04-2011, 04:39 AM
Hello,

with the recent buffs to SMF (20% more dmg), flurry (50% attack speed) and now precision (40% more white dmg) something is not right.

If that goes live, autoattacks will be like 60% or so of total warrior dmg and that smells funny. They will change something. For sure. And I don't know why but I hope it isn't flurry.

Does anyone expected the change on Precision? Was it necessary? Not for me. In fact, having a 50% attack speed flurry its pretty OP for me. But at least solves our rage "starvation" problem and maybe we will use Inner Rage more often.

The precision change is replacing the change to flurry - so we wont get both.




Fury

Precision (passive) now increase auto-attack damage by 40%, in addition to the 3% hit it offers currently.
Raging Blow damage has been increased back to 120% weapon damage, up from 100%.
Unshackled Fury now only grants 2 base points of mastery, down from 8.


But this change to convert more damage into autoattacks does seem wierd and unneccesary. Is this all an effort to counter Fury bursts in PVP?

Frankly im getting a bit annoyed with the constant patch-changes/hotfixes to fury. Statvalues and skill-priorities changes every other week at the moment it seems.

Krenian
03-04-2011, 04:40 AM
Flurry was removed from the PTR and it is now only Precision's change that is on the PTR.

This focuses our damage more on our white attacks and may make Hit a bit more important in stat priority. But to be honest with you I don't think it'll change that much. They're trying to balance the fact that they lowered the amount of Mastery we will have at the start so that means we have less damage output.

I think Blizzard's goal here is that a lot of people complain that Warriors have a lot of burst, and a high damage output. I'm speaking solely of PVP here right now which means that they need to make sure we don't have as much burst. Blizzard needs to keep Warriors as a dangerous class when on a person and not one to be ignored. So by lowering the capabilities of bursting out from 100-0 in a couple of GCDs (This is something Blizzard has tried to move away from in Cataclysm and is still having issues with), we can keep having pressure in the form of damage that is stable but strong, instead of little and then a huge blast of it through cds.

On another note however, they wanted us to stop having melee hits being the highest damage and yet they go and make this change which goes against the philosophy. My one big complaint is that Blizzard will try to continuously balance this game around both aspects and I honestly am losing hope it could be achieved. The reason is that there are so many different dynamics in both game that balancing both is a titan of a task and I don't think the model Blizzard is using right now is a good enough one.

In the end, we will just have to see and test out and go with the flow.

woodyman
03-04-2011, 05:01 AM
maybe they realised that by increasing flurry so much our rage income would be enormous leading to massive executes/HS usage

i agree though i thought they didnt really want a large portion of peoples DPS to effectively come from them doing notihng...but thats basically what they have moved towards here...
i cant see this being over anytime soon :(

Just try not to totally ruin Warrior tanks in the mean time ok blizz! leave me alone! lol

Thegreatme
03-04-2011, 08:21 AM
blizzards goal here is that if they left the flurry change in, crit's value would be so incredibly high that the people in charge of itemizing gear would look like a bunch of assclowns if they didn't put crit on every single item; it simply made crit way too good. This change definitely increases the value of hit (and obviously haste, but haste still sucks), I haven't run the numbers to see how much of an increase it will be, but I can almost guarantee that if this change goes live there is going to be a good discussion about mastery vs hit again.

Loganisis
03-04-2011, 08:50 AM
Is hit ever going to be as good as mastery though? With the benefits being addiditive (.056+.056+.056) it seems like there is a point at which the sheer multiplicative value of the sum of mastery on the abilities it does affect overwhelm.

44.8 + (Mastery * .056) = multiplier for DW and RB. It just seems too overwhelming to a few extra white hits (even if bigger) and HS (unless the HS are in the DW+CS phase, but proper rage mgmt should have them in there anyway).

Thegreatme
03-04-2011, 08:56 AM
mastery scaling will definitely put mastery ahead in the future, the question I have is, due to the "loss" of 6 mastery, will that devalue RB enough to where itemizing for more hit in order to get more heroic strikes would be the way to go. I personally think that this won't be the case, but at this point in time I am pretty much just guessing.

Krenian
03-04-2011, 09:06 AM
mastery scaling will definitely put mastery ahead in the future, the question I have is, due to the "loss" of 6 mastery, will that devalue RB enough to where itemizing for more hit in order to get more heroic strikes would be the way to go. I personally think that this won't be the case, but at this point in time I am pretty much just guessing.

You know what's funny?

Blizzard wanting us to get away from using Heroic Strike in that method.

Funny how that goes.

Baba
03-04-2011, 09:11 AM
Wouldn't this make hit vs. mastery (for RB) tilt even more towards hit for SMF? I appreciate the difficulty in balancing that Blizzard has, but they really seem to be wildly veering left, then right, then left again with such substantial changes. Doesn't really matter too much to my gearing right now, since the majority of my gear with mastery, also has haste on it, so it will always be haste that gets reforged anyway.

Kazeyonoma
03-04-2011, 10:21 AM
Frankly im getting a bit annoyed with the constant patch-changes/hotfixes to fury. Statvalues and skill-priorities changes every other week at the moment it seems.

you realize this is all for the PTR and none of it is live, so no it's not constant changes every other week, that's what the PTR is for.

fr33d4n
03-04-2011, 12:20 PM
Damn, so, Flurry is not there anymore?

Seems that with the precision change SMF gains more and more points...

Erkebrand
03-04-2011, 12:23 PM
Thank you for educating me on the purpose of the PTR. I'm well aware of the nature of the PTR and that changes are subject to further changes before they become live.

However Blizzard have already released a number of hotfixes and live patches(4.0.3a + 4.0.6) with huge effects on fury since Cata was released. Just look at the HS/cleave changes and not to mention RB and mastery that was changed numerous times affecting the statvalues and the rotational priorities.

So yes I do find it annoying - even if its not exactly "every other week"

Loganisis
03-04-2011, 01:27 PM
mastery scaling will definitely put mastery ahead in the future, the question I have is, due to the "loss" of 6 mastery, will that devalue RB enough to where itemizing for more hit in order to get more heroic strikes would be the way to go. I personally think that this won't be the case, but at this point in time I am pretty much just guessing.

Especially when you factor in this is 4.1 with the next tier of gear. Even the loss of 6 mastery (though the base bonus from unshackled is equal to something like 10 mastery - like 64% isn't it on PTR - and then there's 2 mastery on top of that).

The white damage increase seems to be free damage to me but not damage that would affect gearing priorities as the additional hits gained will be pretty minimal and it still doesn't increase the benefit of additional HS.

klausi
03-04-2011, 03:02 PM
The white damage increase seems to be free damage to me but not damage that would affect gearing priorities as the additional hits gained will be pretty minimal and it still doesn't increase the benefit of additional HS.
Right now we favor everything over hit/haste after stylecap, that might change again. But we should always remember those glancings, flagellating us since vanilla.

If you've been pleased with meeting fury/x/healer comps in higher arena ratings you'll totally understand this changes, their burst right now is just ridiculus and they had to change something about it. If this is the right way.. well time will tell.

Loganisis
03-04-2011, 10:06 PM
Well if it has to be changed, increasing white damage does seem to be a good way to do it to maintain the damage level but make it less bursty.

I'd still like to see something like slam having a higher proc rate or enrages lasting longer and giving us a true filler - anytime you have designed a spec so there are dead GCDs potentially it's going to be bursty because to make up for the dead space the other abilities will need to be stronger (and yes, there are deadspots... I've gone 15 seconds multiple times without a damn slam proc).

I still don't think hit will become more valuable than mastery, even at current gear levels - but especially not with the new tier of gear in 4.1. Of course, Fury is a burst-beast, and will always be that way until they redesign it - so in all honestly, I'm expecting to see 4.1.1 nerf mastery again, maybe back down to the 4.7% per point level. 10 mastery increases RB by over 50% right now. That's on top of the base unshackled fury bonus. And it makes Deathwish even better... That's just a hella of a lot of benefit concentrated in so few abilities.


At this point, with the balancing issues Fury has... I'm almost wondering if CS shouldn't be removed (I hate the idea of removing it, since it's a tool that does make it so the player better at using it does better) and replaced with a passive 20% ArP trait, so you don't see the lining up of CDs with CS denuding the target of protection. This would help make Fury less bursty and more sustain.

At this point I think it's becoming clear that Blizz is struggling to figure out how to control Fury without nerfing it into irrelevence.

Garthok
03-06-2011, 06:59 AM
According to Landsoul,
Stat weights will stay the same so we are still looking at:
Hit 8% > EXP 26 > STR > Crit > Mastery > Hit 27% > Haste

Although yes haste will increase our white damage it obviously seems that he doesn't want to warrent it that much
maybe because the fact that we can not reach white hit cap in this tier it will probably be mostly useless.

So in my opinion it will probably change the priority for warriors towards
BT > Slam > RB
Just like SMF warriors :P

Loganisis
03-06-2011, 09:55 AM
According to Landsoul,
Stat weights will stay the same so we are still looking at:
Hit 8% > EXP 26 > STR > Crit > Mastery > Hit 27% > Haste

Although yes haste will increase our white damage it obviously seems that he doesn't want to warrent it that much
maybe because the fact that we can not reach white hit cap in this tier it will probably be mostly useless.

So in my opinion it will probably change the priority for warriors towards
BT > Slam > RB
Just like SMF warriors :P

Nothing in the patch notes buffs Slam for TG (just for Arms) but RB, already preferred, is buffed (and even with the -6 mastery, it's still a buff based on the base unshackled fury and current levels of mastery).

TG isn't going to move slam above RB.

Loganisis
03-06-2011, 09:57 AM
If Blizzard continues like this Fury will be the new Wotlk Rogue. I imagine that most Furys complained about their spec beeing already too complex. Usually Fury was the easy DPS-Spec. Arms became so complex that world-top people deny switching to Arms. Since Fury became a little more complex people were not satisfied with their output. Blizzard reacts and Fury will end up with more "autohit"-damage and Arms is getting easier to play to make it availible to a wider community.

They try to balance the output between TG and SMF.

Fury is still a simple spec. There's really nothing complex about it, just frustration at 2/3 of the core rotation abilities (slam and RB) being proc-based.

Currently TG and SMF are essentially equal. As of 4.0.6 landsoul reported TG up by like only 400 dps over SMF and then they nerfed RB so SMF probably ended up on top.

Erkebrand
03-16-2011, 05:51 AM
PTR update as of today - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2356431.



- Colossus Smash now ignores 50% of a hostile player's armor (PvP), but continues to ignore 100% of a non-player character's armor (PvE).

- Whirlwind now has its cooldown reduced by 6 seconds when it deals damage to 4 or more targets. The Whirlwind effect caused by Bladestorm remains unchanged.

Talent Specializations


Fury



Precision (passive) now increase auto-attack damage by 40%, in addition to the 3% hit it offers currently.
Unshackled Fury now only grants 2 base points of mastery, down from 8.


As you can see the nerf to CS(PVE-wise) is gone and so is the buff to Raging Blow(from 100 -> 120%). So with regard to rotations and stat-priorities we are basically back to the way things are right now, except for the minor impact the nerf to Unshackled Fury might have on the mastery statvalue(and the following devaluation of RB) and ofcourse the possible benefit of higher hit statvalue due to increased white damage.

Loganisis
03-16-2011, 10:58 AM
o_O Abilities do different things in PvP versus PvE.... Hell hath frozen over!

Krenian
03-17-2011, 05:49 AM
Taking from another game: It's about damn time.

Squirrelnut
03-22-2011, 09:50 AM
I don't see how SMF having a slightly higher DPS ceiling then TG already will do anything but pull further ahead with the current 4.1 PTR info if it goes live.

- Precision causing 40% buff to white hit damage (SMF hits faster = more of a buff)
- Unshackled Fury nerf (TG is more effected by this due to RB not doing as much)

So essentially 4.1 is buffing SMF and nerfing TG slightly... it seems like they are saying "All top end Fury Warriors that min/max will now go SMF because not enough people have been using it"

Are there any arguments in favor of TG post 4.1? Am I missing something? I love TG rolling around with my Zin'Rokh but I just can't justify it if 4.1 PTR goes live =(

klausi
03-22-2011, 09:55 AM
(SMF hits faster = more of a buff)
And TG hits harder.. SMF has a more steady flow of incoming rage and better uptime on enrage but lower burst on every style whose are based on weapon damage.

Squirrelnut
03-22-2011, 09:58 AM
But with the Unshackled Fury nerf do you see SMF doing anything but coming out better then TG then it already is now since RB won't hit as hard?


EDIT: Also another question, when is it recommended to switch to SMF if you prefer TG? I have double Lavaspines but don't have heroic ones yet. If I did I would switch but normal Lava Spines vs Zin'Rokh & Ashkandi thus far I have preferred TG cause it looks so much cooler lawl.

Loganisis
03-22-2011, 12:22 PM
The white damage would normally be a push I would think. However, since min-maxing TG is 8% hit and SMF is more like 12-14%, SMF will benefit slightly more from the change to precision based not on the number of weapon hits, but how many.

squats
03-22-2011, 03:05 PM
And TG hits harder.. SMF has a more steady flow of incoming rage and better uptime on enrage but lower burst on every style whose are based on weapon damage.

This is completely false.

SMF has higher burst, and higher white damage. Its nothing for me to get 80k crits (sometimes more) with BT, and my whit crits are pushing over 20k durring CS, and are roughly around 13k otherwise.


And squirrel, now is the time to switch.
The rotation will be pretty much the same. just that BT>RB now. slam is last again.

Squirrelnut
03-22-2011, 03:13 PM
What is this 12-14% hit for SMF? I had not heard that and looking at players that I respect such as Landsoul who I know uses SMF he has almost exactly 8% hit. What is the reasoning behind higher hit for SMF? Does hit beyond 8% really out-weigh Mastery?

klausi
03-22-2011, 11:16 PM
SMF has higher burst, and higher white damage. Its nothing for me to get 80k crits (sometimes more) with BT, and my whit crits are pushing over 20k durring CS, and are roughly around 13k otherwise.
BT damage is based on attackpower, not on weapon damage. A +20% modifier clearly helps here.

Twohander 372 mainhand crit w/o deathwish nor CS or trinkets is roughly 20k for our fury but i can't see how this proves anything :)


What is the reasoning behind higher hit for SMF? Does hit beyond 8% really out-weigh Mastery?
You don't have enough rage to perform your basic rotation or keep up enrage. SMF struggles from having 524 less rating at ilvl 359 and 588 at ilvl 372, that's roughly 3 mastery on it's own.

Squirrelnut
03-23-2011, 07:39 AM
You don't have enough rage to perform your basic rotation or keep up enrage. SMF struggles from having 524 less rating at ilvl 359 and 588 at ilvl 372, that's roughly 3 mastery on it's own.
How do you not have enough rage to perform your basic rotation with SMF @ 8% hit? Looking at virtually all the top end SMF Warriors it looks like they basically all have 8% hit.

klausi
03-23-2011, 08:16 AM
This is because on most heroic raid encounter you have so much raiddamage that it's enough to let you substain your rotation. Without that you can't get any real use out of Incite at 8%.