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JonahJB
03-03-2011, 08:56 PM
For the majority of my tanking (during LK and Cata, thus far), very rarely do I have a threat issue. However since I am having to PuG a lot thus far, I am running across threat issues and I am trying to figure out if its me or just the people I pug with. I've also (as of lately) had some healers tell me I am hard to heal. Any suggestions (stats, gems, UI, etc) would be greatly appreciated:

UI:
2700

Amory:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/arathor/barkrak/simple

STR:
Shield of the Righteous
Crusader Strike
Judgment
Hammer of Wrath (if active)
Avenger's Shield
Consecration
Holy Wrath

MTR:
Hammer of the Righteous
Consecration
Holy Wrath
Avenger's Shield
Shield of the Righteous
Judgment

Please do not post for me to visit a site like Elitist Jerks & Paladin Builds. I have already done the research on threat and I have tried everything on both those sites.
Thank You

klausi
03-03-2011, 09:26 PM
Aggro shouldn't be a problem if they attack the right target, you mark it with a skull don't you? And you should use inquisition instead of SotR while tanking multiple mobs, it makes a world of difference. You can also consider dropping your avenger's shield glyph, hitting three mobs in the run gives you a decent threat lead at start.

"Hard to heal" in what context? Heroics? Do you still cc there or just bomb them all to hell? Do you rotate cooldowns for this (with 60s/120s/180s there should always be a cooldown up on engaging a new group), silence with your avenger's shield + rebuke and use your two stuns wisely?

After telling us you've done the research needed on your own i really don't get why you still gear for those hit and expertise softcaps. It's really not needed after all. Hit the proper buttons and if you miss an attack one mob (regulary not the one that is marked) might turn over and hit your dps once until one of your two taunts will direct him back to his intended target. Reforge all your expertise and hit away ASAP in favor of mastery (preferable) or avoidance (dodge/parry depending on what percent is lower). You're sitting at 32% block while you could easily manage 45%+ with other emphases. And gemming for strength? What's that purpose?

Just check that profile and compare by yourself: http://chardev.org/?profile=65630

Ps: you specced into Pursuit of Justice, no +runspeed enchant needed :)

Vigilant
03-03-2011, 10:20 PM
You could probably gain 20-25% block rating, which would make you take a crapton less dmg if you reforged all of your threat stats properly into mastery, and gemmed either all out for mastery, or a mastery/stam blend. In either case, there is no reason to either reforge for threat stats unless you happen to be on interrupt duty for a particular encounter, or to have str/stam gems in red slots. Throw a parry/stam or a parry/mastery in there instead. You might want to balance out your dodge and parry as well, although the effect will be negligible. Nonetheless, its still an improvement.

JonahJB
03-04-2011, 08:27 AM
"...reforged all of your threat stats properly into mastery..." I am curious, why would I reforge my threat? That means less threat - not sure on that one.
"...you mark it with a skull don't you?" "Do you still cc there or just bomb them all to hell?" Yes, I do mark the targets for CC and kill order. "...those hit and expertise soft caps", I gear with what I get. If its an upgrade I take it. Its not like I have a choice lol.
"And gemming for strength? What's that purpose?" - Threat
That link is not working, its stuck on loading.
"you specced into Pursuit of Justice, no +runspeed enchant needed" & "You can also consider dropping your avenger's shield glyph" thanks for the info, I will look into both of them.

sifuedition
03-04-2011, 10:34 AM
I don't mean to offend or anything but I think it bears saying... If you have been to EJ and maintankadin and don't want to be directed there, there are two problems you will have here:

1: The right answer hasn't changed. What you are told here will match what they say.

2: You didn't follow thier advice, why should we think you'll follow ours?

If you have done what they said, you would not gem for strength, you would not gem/enchant/reforge for hit or expertise and you would not be having issues now.

Having said that, we ARE here to help. Don't refuse it before it's even been given.

First, I would highly recommend you RE-review those sights and follow the advice even if you don't think it's right. Test it and see what the results are. This may include a time to adjust so don't abandon it the first day.

All excess strength, hit and expertise are unnecessary. Never use them when you have a choice (i.e. gem/enchant/reforge). When you have a choice, reforge them to mastery. If the gear has mastery already, reforge to dodge or parry, whichever is lower.

Try to get away from consecration. I can't remember the last time I used it and I am not missing it.

You seem to recognize CS and HotR are interchangeable for single/multiple target so that applies here.

CS
X
CS
X
CS
Word of glory
CS
...


X is the most useful skill off of cd. 75% or less mana? Judge. AoE? AS or holy wrath. Holy wrath should be cast pretty frequently and is well above consecrate IMO.

As for the Word of Glory spot, I find there are very few times when I cannot use it for a holy power dump. Sometimes on myself, sometimes on another raid/party member. If it's a group I trust, I may use it for SotR or Inquisition on AoE.

For us to help more, when is threat really an issue? Raid only? Heroics? The start of a pull? 5 seconds in?

javsaddiction
03-04-2011, 01:34 PM
I've been lurking these forums as well as EJ and Maintankaden. I started playing as a ret pally this past November, and just started off-tanking over the past month or so.

Being new to the game, I figured I'd follow the advice from all 3 sites, which is pretty much identical. I've reforged out of haste, crit, exp and hit, in favor of mastery, block, dodge & parry. I've had very few issues with threat, which have come almost exclusively in PUGs. I've actually decided puging as a tank isn't worth it for the mist part and will usually pig in my ret gear/spec.

So thanks to the community for some solid advice that's helped me better understand how to gear myself properly as well as overall proper use of abilities and rotations.

Contravene
03-04-2011, 03:18 PM
I am sorry to hear you are having trouble my fellow TankAdin. I think your problem is selfish dps who want to achieve high score on recount. They don't care about giving you any lead time to build aggro.. They will rapid target switch when they get 100% aggro or basically panic which can leave you without taunts or anything to recover with.. If you have a problematic pug the one good note is he will not wait 3 seconds cuz he is a moron. So target his target and double taunt from him.. First RD on him, then directly taunt the mob, then open up with DPS. Good DPS will always wait to see your first strike at least and then you should expect a nice burst from the good dps to follow.. So you might be insecurely tanking but at least now you can open up with HoTR to grab aggro on any multiple mobs..

It's a damn balancing act to be honest it is all DPS fault for this to happen. You are not doing anything wrong unless you are for some reason taking a long time to react. Remember that you can open with taunt at a few paces away as well or build your own strategy as long as you identify the problem..

P.S. Consecration can be used if you manage an excellent rotation using priority rules listed on EJ forums. But if you do use Consecration one wrong move on your rotation can flat line your mana.. You can get aggro back without it so if things feel "on the edge of managable" I recommend you don't use it.

JonahJB
03-05-2011, 01:59 AM
I went back to EJ to double check the reforge and I am not sure where you guys are getting the idea to reforge OUT of hit and Expertise...
"Reforging Tips

If you are unable reach 26 Expertise with SoT glyph and racial abilities reforge—in this order—haste, crit, parry, dodge, mastery, hit into expertise.
If you have at least 26 Expertise with SoT glyph and racial abilities reforge—in this order—haste, crit, parry, dodge, mastery into hit. (NOTE: Never reforge expertise into hit unless you are well past 55 expertise.)
If you have at least 26 Expertise with SoT glyph and racial abilities and are hit capped reforge—in this order—haste, crit, parry, dodge, excess hit into mastery. Continue to follow this rule until you reach the 102.4% block cap. IMPORTANT: When reforging from dodge/parry make sure to reforge from the stat that has the most rating since it will be the stat stuffering from the most diminishing returns.
Once you have hit the 102.4% block cap and are hit and soft expertise capped then all excess stats should be funneled into expertise.



You should never be reforging into the following stats... haste, crit, parry or dodge."

According to this you are supposed to reforge EXCESS, if you look at my paladin I have no excess, lol.

"The right answer hasn't changed." - If I was given the right answer, I would not be posting here because I would not be having an issue :)
"You didn't follow their advice..." - as I stated above, I have done EVERYTHING that all of these sights have suggested, and I am still having an issue. Just because my gems/stats/enchants (w/e) are presently different dose not mean they where not as suggested by these sights at one point. I have been redoing stuff trying to find something that works. 100% of the time. (well, at least 99% of the time).

Doc309
03-05-2011, 02:38 AM
you need to look again...

Quoting from EJ...

Reforging Tips
There are two reforging strategies: The Survivalist Strategy (The New Way) or The Threat Strategy (The Old Way). You are welcome to choose whichever way you want to go, however the current community concensus is that maximizing survival stats, in particular mastery then dodge and parry, even at the expense of hit and expertise is the way to go. This does contradict the previously established dogma of cap hit/exp as quickly as possible before progressing in other stats. This is because [Vengeance] is proving to be very powerful and makes it possible for tanks to afford several misses during the course of a fight.
The Survival Strategy (The New Way)
If you are not at the block cap/full combat table coverage reforge—in this order—haste, crit, expertise, hit, dodge/parry into mastery. IMPORTANT: When reforging from dodge/parry make sure to reforge from the stat that has the most rating since it will be the stat suffering from the most diminishing returns.
If you reach 102.4% coverage and have excess block reforge mastery into dodge/parry for additional avoidance instead of mitigation (as usual be aware of diminishing returns) or into hit/expertise for additional threat.
You should never be reforging into the following stats... haste, crit.
The Threat Strategy (The Old Way)
As things stand now you should not be reforging to max hit/expertise when tanking. If you really really want to do this play Retribution.

Dedic
03-05-2011, 05:41 AM
When a dps pisses me off with their lack of self-control, after salv doesn't work, after saying something doesn't work, I just bubble them. Then they can see where they're at on recount, lol.

JonahJB
03-05-2011, 09:07 AM
Dedic, I also quoted from EJ - so I am going to presume that there are two posts for reforging. Would you mind actually providing a link to the one you are reading? Because I can obviously not find it.
Thank You

I have clique set up for HoP, HoR and Salv, normally "grabbing aggro back" is not an issue if I need to. It's funny sometimes to watch a melee sit there and gripe about being in a bubble :)

Fetzie
03-05-2011, 10:03 AM
You reforge out of hit and expertise because dodge, parry and mastery are so much more valuable - you can assume that you won't have threat problems because vengeance is so powerful. It basically doesn't matter if you miss 25% of your attacks because the 75% that land do enough threat to cover the loss.

I would also not follow EJ blindly; while they are usually spot on for dps, tanking and healing is not so much their forte :)

JonahJB
03-05-2011, 01:59 PM
Ok so I redid my enchants & gems as much as I could before I went broke. I'll deal with the other 2 enchants later.

Dedic
03-05-2011, 03:56 PM
Clique is also great for RD

Not sure what you mean about me quoting EJ tho... I use Maintankadin, Theck is the man.

Zee786
03-05-2011, 05:25 PM
The link to the ej post is: http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t110338-cataclysm_tanking_protection_field_manual_updated_ feb_9_2011_4_0_6_a/
I personally think this is the best way because the mastery will increase your survivability and the stam will increase the potency of your vengeance increasing threat and try avengers shield on pull (non glyphed) then DP and SotR your main target. That will give a huge threat lead. If you still have issues then either someone is attacking the wrong target or you are doing something wrong.

JonahJB
03-05-2011, 06:38 PM
I meant to say Doc not Dec :) lol - Thank You Zee
So let me make sure I got this clear here...
P + D + B +5 is supposed to = 102.4%?
So if I am only sitting at 76.09% with the iL of 349. I am going to assume that is bad?

Also back to the main topic at hand (threat), yes the mit is going to help the dmg and the heals, but my threat question still stands - what am I doing wrong? lol (or is it just the dps being dumb??)

Lumines
03-06-2011, 03:24 AM
Also back to the main topic at hand (threat), yes the mit is going to help the dmg and the heals, but my threat question still stands - what am I doing wrong? lol (or is it just the dps being dumb??)


What's your rotation? In as much detail as you can give, please. If you're having threat issues at all it's almost always a rotation issue.

Glancing at your UI suggests you're clicking rather than keybinding - please correct me if I'm assuming incorrectly. If your clicking leads to you getting off less abilities than 1 every 1.5 seconds (i.e. GCD-locked) then you're also going to be missing out on a ton of threat.

Zee786
03-06-2011, 04:40 AM
Also could u tell us when you are having the threat issues. If it's at the beginning it's probably not your fault just an over enthusiastic dps. However if it's mid fight and on your main target then its more likely a rotation issue. If it's not your main target it's not your fault.

JonahJB
03-06-2011, 11:41 AM
@Lumin
My rotation is at the top with the original post :)
Yes I am a clicker, always have been always will be. I have no other way to play.
If you are referring to using my WSAD keys to move, I do that. Left had is for movement, right is for casting/camera adjusting (which I tend to have to do a lot of), and looting with the mouse - as far as I know this is the only way.

@Zee
Normally right off the bat, however there are times in the middle of the fight when I loose it as well. Personally I think its just placement and timing issues but I am looking here for advise.

Lumines
03-06-2011, 11:59 AM
You haven't listed a rotation. You've listed a bunch of abilities with no indication of what order you use them in, or how often. The order is kind of important.

Martie
03-06-2011, 12:34 PM
My rotation is at the top with the original post :)
No, it's not. There is no rotation in the original post. If you tried to post a rotation there, you failed.

Yes I am a clicker, always have been always will be. I have no other way to play.The best way to solve your threat issues is to stop being a clicker.

If you are referring to using my WSAD keys to move, I do that. Left had is for movement, right is for casting/camera adjusting (which I tend to have to do a lot of), and looting with the mouse - as far as I know this is the only way.
Strike that previous comment. We need to go back a step further - you need to learn your terminology. When people say "clicker" they refer to the way skills are activated by you. Do you click the button with your mouse or do you use a keyboard button bound to the button? (The numeric buttons at the top of your keyboard are bound to the basic action bar by default.)


Normally right off the bat, however there are times in the middle of the fight when I loose it as well. Personally I think its just placement and timing issues but I am looking here for advise. Threat right off the bat is solved by having a proper opener. If you have threat issues later on, it's due to a faulty rotation.

Now, I'd still like to know your rotation, but here is the one that works best for me (and as such is the best there is in my opinion and experience.)
When I give two options for a step, the first option is best for AoE packs, the second option is best for single target threat. You can mix and match these. (You need to mix and match for best results.)

Hammer of the Righteous or Crusader Strike.
Avenger's Shield if you can, Holy Wrath otherwise.
Hammer of the Righteous or Crusader Strike.
Judgement.
Hammer of the Righteous or Crusader Strike.
Inquisition or Shield of the Righteous.
Repeat.

For the opener, it depends on the mobs, but I usually start with Divine Plea, Inquisition, Avenger's Shield, Judgement and Consecration, starting the rotation after that. Against single mobs, I'll drop the inquisition and add a Shield of the Righteous to the end.

Contravene
03-06-2011, 12:53 PM
I am owning 5 man HC dungeons but my experience can't be applied to Tier 11+.. There's two approaches right now for reforging and I am using the Survivalist strategy with 15 expertise and 5.69% Hit Chance (.31% chance to miss) I generate Holy Power nearly all of the time. Since nearly everyone else here is using the oposite strategy and none of us are having problems I think most problems with threat will be reaction time. Investigate ways to notice someone getting aggro and ways of casting taunts off them that require 0 time loss. Should feel natural.

Also I have used full mitigation for HC 5 mans I just like this way better, or at least til they nerf WoG. I am prepared to switch things around to go 100% mitigation trying to put as much of that into mastery as possible as an alternative setup.. (Read that in case I am called to raid) I do not use this on cheesy BH 10 man I have stomped down so far though I just use what you see

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/khaz-modan/contravene/simple

Zee786
03-06-2011, 03:03 PM
@Zee
Normally right off the bat, however there are times in the middle of the fight when I loose it as well. Personally I think its just placement and timing issues but I am looking here for advise.

As I said if it's right off the bat you need to do 2 things 1) tell the dps to give you a second. 2) Open with a huge threat ability like DP then SotR or as said above DP, inquisition then AS. If this doesn't work then I have no idea what could be wrong. If it's mid way through then u have a rotation issue ( if you are marking then it shouldn't be the dps but it could happen just make sure every one knows what they mean) in which case we need a detailed account of that spells you use in what order.