PDA

View Full Version : Warrior Prot - Blood Craze is a good talent for ProtWar



Saladao
03-03-2011, 07:41 AM
Hello everyone,

There few days, I changed my build, increasing the threat/(dps) with Deep Wounds, taking out Blood Craze (10% chance of regen 3% total HP).

The increase amount of threat went not great, after changing. And I missed this little regen (or "healers" were sleeping)

Do I should back the changes? Suggestions about Blood Craze...

This is my build: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/warsong/salad%C3%A3o/talent/primary

Katzazi
03-03-2011, 08:04 AM
Where do you miss it? You are probably not up to raiding with your gear. Do you speak about solo stuff (where you should be fine with Victory Rush) or 5mans? In 5mans your healer should be enough to heal you up. You should not depend on such little heals happeing randomly.

But when I look at your gear I think you feel that you need it, because you don't make it easy for your healers to heal you. You drop survival stats to take as unimportant stuff as hit and expertise (without capping at least one of them). Especially with such a threat optimized spec you simply should not need all this hit and expertise.

My advice would be:
- reforge to survival
- gem for survival
- skip Bloodcraze

More precisely: There is one number every warrior tank should try to hit. You are missing it more or less becaue of your reforging. That's 72.4% combined parry+dodge+block. If you are there, you can be unhittable 1/3 of the time because of Shield Block. Because it gives you 25% more block for 10s every 30s. Together with the base miss chance of 5% you can cover the whole combat table with miss, block, dodge and parry during this time. Meaning that every swing at you will either be miss, parry, dodge, crit block or block. So you have at least a 30% dmg reduction while Shield Block is up. That's a lot.

The easiest way to up this value is by going for mastery and to get parry and dodge to good values. We go for mastery, because it gives us the biggest combat table coverage per point. And because it does not take any diminishing returns if stacked higher, as parry and dodge take. And because it helps our healers more than a little bit more avoidance. Especially at your gear level.

Try to get items in the following order:
1. items with mastery + dodge/parry
2. items with high mastery + hit/extpertise
3. items with dodge + parry
4. items with low mastery + hit/expertise
5. items with dodge/parry + hit/expertise
6. other items
7. items with resilience

Reforge like this:
- if the item has no mastery but hit/expertise/crit/haste reforge the highest of them to mastery
- if the item has parry + dodge reforge the one you have more ratings of to mastery
- if the item has mastery try to balance parry and dodge with the remaining stat.
Try to get your parry and dodge "close" together. Parry should be a little bit (1-3%) higher because of Hold the Line.

Btw: Move the point from Gag Order over to Incite. Gag Order with one point does not help you at all, since you cannot relay on it.

Gem for mastery:
At your gear level it's probably best to gem for bonuses as well since they are additional ratings and you are fighting for the best coverage of the combat table at the moment:
- Blue: stam + mastery
- Yellow: mastery
- Red: parry + mastery

Naka
03-03-2011, 08:27 AM
That's 72.4% combined parry+dodge+block.

He means 77.4%. ;)

Edit: Oh yeah well, reading is win. Scratch that.

Edit2: wtb cross out tags

Riz
03-03-2011, 08:55 AM
considering your 5% miss

Loganisis
03-03-2011, 09:02 AM
It's 72.4 and 97.4 Dodge/Parry/Block. The 77.4 and 102.4 are used when you include miss.

Even raid buffed, you're at what, ~160k HP? 3% = 4.8k. Over 5 seconds that's 960 health per second. Maybe in a large trash pack you can see this often enough you could think it's valuable. But not for a raid. With damage coming in every 2.6 seconds (is this truely the average boss swing timer?) you're simply not taking damage enough to proc it realiability and when you are it's a miniscule amount.

It's a great tool for solo-ing old content where the ticks alone cover up all incoming damage. But it's not really something I find myself wanting to give up deep wounds for at all.

Saladao
03-03-2011, 10:38 AM
Ok. In this case, I have correct my gear, reforge and gem, replacing for survival.

I will increase Mastery(Crit. Block), Dodge and Parry for raise damage reduction.
On Heroic, I get 165k~170k HP - I suppose it's ok.


But I dont understand this:

Btw: Move the point from Gag Order over to Incite. Gag Order with one point does not help you at all, since you cannot relay on it.I removed HS of my rotation, to avoid lack of rage.
Do I should put in again? Or complete Gag Order with another point? Or put this point in another place?

Loganisis
03-03-2011, 11:21 AM
You're rage-starved as the tank? You shouldn't be. Not with 3/3 shield mastery. If you're going to spec into DW you should spec fully 3/3 into incite to maximize the benefit. Gag order doesn't give you much because you're not guaranteeing it, plus in a raid, you don't really need it.

Your gemming is sub optimal.

Yellow = mastery.
Red = Parry/Mastery
Blue = Mastery/Stamina

If gear doesn't have mastery on it, reforge into mastery, never reforge away from mastery (mastery->hit? no).

Dodge and parry share the shame diminishing returns, but Hold the Line makes parry slighlty more valuable. Parry should be ~2.5% higher than dodge. So with 13.47 parry and 12.8 dodge, if gear is dodge/parry, reforge the dodge into mastery.

You don't need hit or expertise to maintain threat, just DPS knowing to be smart in the first 10 seconds of a pull.

***

Wow, I just looked at your gear more in depth - you're gear is poorly itemized - no wonder your healers are having problems, your block is at 36.78%. It should be close to 50% with your gear. You're also missing 7 enchants and your belt buckle. You're leaving a lot of survability on the table.

Head -> 1. Reforge to mastery, probably dodge. 2. Gem mastery, not doge. 3. Buy the enchant for it http://www.wowhead.com/item=62366.
Neck -> Undo the reforge. You refroged mastery to hit. Not good.
Shoulders -> 1. Reforge hit to mastery. 2. Gem parry/mastery not str/sta. 3. Buy the enchant http://www.wowhead.com/item=62333.
Chest -> 1. Gem Mastery/Sta not sta. 2. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74251
Wrist -> 1. Reforge Exp to Mastery. 2. Gem 40 mastery not stamina in the BS socket. 3. Enchant with dodge or stamina
Gloves -> 1. Reforge Exp to Mastery. 2. Gem 40 mastery not stamina in the BS socket. 3. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74255
Waist -> 1. Reforge Parry to mastery (give you more mastery than reforging dodge to mastery). 2. Gem parry/mastery not str/sta. 3. Ebonsteel buckle.
Legs -> 1. Reforge Exp to Mastery. 2. Gem parry/mastery not parry/sta 3. http://www.wowhead.com/item=56503.
Boots -> 1. Reforge hit to mastery. 2. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74253 or http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74238
Ring1 -> Unforge it. You reforged mastery to hit. No.
Ring2 -> Unforge it. You reforged dodge to hit. No.
Trinket1 -> nothing
Trinket2 -> Reforge dodge to mastery
Weapon -> Do you have a dedicated tanking weapon or do you swap it between SMF and tanking? If you swap it, reforge the hit to mastery. If it's your tanking weapon, reforge the crit to mastery. Enchant it with mending or something. Not a huge deal here for a 346 weapon.
Shield -> 1. Unforge it. You reforged mastery to hit. No. 2. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74226
Range -> Do you share it? If not, hit to mastery. If you do, hit to mastery.


This should take you from ~61% dodge/parry/block - meaning almost 35% of all attacks (when accounting for base boss miss rate) hit you for full damage --- To something like 73% dodge/parry/block meaning just over 20% of all attack (boss miss rate factored in) hit you for full damage. Plus with the mastery increase you'll get a lot more crit blocks, so a lot more 60% reductions instead of 30% reductions.

Compare this to the healing from blood craze and it will be clear why mastery is best to gear for.


***

If you find you're having threat issues with less hit/exp (you shouldn't, I run with .64% hit and 3 expertise with no issues outside of overeager DPS on the pull), make sure your rotation is good... something like:

Heroic Throw -> Charge > Shield block then shield slam > revenge/devestate until SS is back up with utility thrown in and rend replacing devestates when it falls off.

Loganisis
03-03-2011, 11:22 AM
Oh, and replace the glyph of sunder armor. You use devestate, you don't need it.

Katzazi
03-03-2011, 01:28 PM
Ok. In this case, I have correct my gear, reforge and gem, replacing for survival.

I will increase Mastery(Crit. Block), Dodge and Parry for raise damage reduction.
On Heroic, I get 165k~170k HP - I suppose it's ok.


But I dont understand this:
I removed HS of my rotation, to avoid lack of rage.
Do I should put in again? Or complete Gag Order with another point? Or put this point in another place?


160k HP is much more than you need for heroic 5mans. To be honest - HP is absolutely irrelevant for heroic 5mans if you gear right (meaning: going for mastery and avoidance). Come to think about it: it's also more or less irrelevant if you do it wrong - you will just oom your healer and die in this case... Heroic 5 mans are about the right execution, not about tank gib encounters.

If you are interested in dps/threat at any level, you should use HS/cleave. As a tank you should have the rage for it in most cases (there are some soft hitting boss exceptions where it's hard to hold HS up). HS is not bad. You should use it. The only thing you should avoid is to rage starve yourself so you cannot use your normal rotation anymore. But with your gear you should eat dmg all the time. So your rage bar should hit 100 frequently. Especially if you do not use HS...

Gag Order: One point there does not do you any good. It does not give you a reliable silence. So it's pure utility. It does not give you threat/dps either. For heroic 5 mans the utility of Gag Order can be quite good, but you have to invest both points for it. It's either 0 or 2 points.

I chose to take this utility for heroic 5 mans over single target threat. So I'm not going for DW. But if you want to max single target threat you have to drop some utility. So drop the point in Gag Order and use it on Incite. It helps you to get more out of DW. And you have to use HS again. You should also consider to drop another talent if you want your max single target threat build. Best candidate would be Improved Revenge. If you do this you can remove Revenge form your rotation, because it falls back behind Devastate. That would also free another glyph slot *G*.


He means 77.4%. ;)

Edit: Oh yeah well, reading is win. Scratch that.

Edit2: wtb cross out tags

(It's "she" ;-).) I seldom use the 77.4%. While it is the value you have "before SB", it's not an important value. Either you are interested in the sum you see on your character sheet, or you are should think about your goal of 102.4%. (I don't know why people do not start to speak about 97.4% since this is all you need to cover by yourself to get unhittable.)


Oh, and replace the glyph of sunder armor. You use devestate, you don't need it.

Argh I did not look at glyphs. I don't know why so many warrior tanks keep using it...

But while speaking about glyphs: Use Glyph of Intimidating Shout instead of Glyph of Commanding Shout. It gives you another survivel Aoe CD to use on trash. And you don't need to glyph your buff-shouts. You should use them to get rage more or less on CD, anyway.

Saladao
03-03-2011, 01:43 PM
Yes... I know about wrongs in my gear... I like test diferent stats for optimize results... But I was problems for define the better abilities.

Anyway, very thanks about analyses. Was very helpful. All people here are very attentive.

Tonight, I make the "transformation". I will tell yours after next Heroic.

Ironfaith
03-04-2011, 06:16 AM
Oh, and replace the glyph of sunder armor. You use devestate, you don't need it.


Argh I did not look at glyphs. I don't know why so many warrior tanks keep using it.

Even when using Devastate, Glyph of Sunder Armor does affect the second nearby target. I use it as one of my three Major Glyphs, the other two I use are Glyph of Cleaving and Thunder Clap. Works out quite well for me when doing trash or 5 man dungeons.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=43427#created-by

Loganisis
03-04-2011, 08:49 AM
Even when using Devastate, Glyph of Sunder Armor does affect the second nearby target. I use it as one of my three Major Glyphs, the other two I use are Glyph of Cleaving and Thunder Clap. Works out quite well for me when doing trash or 5 man dungeons.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=43427#created-by

And you still don't need it.

It's ONLY useful for trash and with CC in close quarters it can be highly deterimental. Maybe if you're single tanking ODS, except then it's extra damage to the deactivating golem.

No. If you need AoE threat - Rend + TC (with B+T) and execute/cleave will give you more than enough if you mark kill priority and let DPS die when they don't follow your instructions.

Never used sunder in Cata and never had a case where I lost threat where it would have helped (some pulls where the healer pre-hot'd and things went scattered before I had Rend + TC up, but that's a different story).

Ironfaith
03-04-2011, 10:06 AM
And you still don't need it.

It's ONLY useful for trash and with CC in close quarters it can be highly deterimental.

Explain why using it would be detrimental around CC in close quarters? The Sunder Armor splash over from using Devastate does not break CC as it does not apply any damage, only the armor debuff. Really quite useful when tanking a mob next to one that has been CC'd and then when the CC pops/expires it is already glued to you because of all the Sunders that hit it.