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Riverune
03-02-2011, 09:05 PM
Hey all,
I have seen for and against hit/expertise arguments all over the place, and I am simply confused by some things.
Firstly, players with < 6 expertise and <2% hit say they have no problems with threat. I don't understand that since in raids I am lacking on the threat side. Do these players all have misdirects of any sort, or are they doing something I don't know about?
Secondly, why isn't it a good idea to reforge some mastery into hit when I am still un-hittable using shield block?
Lastly, (how do I word this properly?) some say expertise > hit for threat, I don't exactly understand why, and which one (considering I DO want higher in threat stats) should I go for?
This is my armory link: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/dathremar/riverune/advanced
Thanks, Riverune.

Tengenstein
03-03-2011, 12:20 AM
The reason prot warriors don't need threat stats is becuase of Vengeance. It just is so silly powerful that on any fight that we don't massively out gear it makes us very threaty. I myself run 2 expertise, 0.49% hit and don't have much in the way of threat issues, i do sometimes get MD'a but not always. But mostly if you have threat problems its either, over eager DPS who can't/won't manage their threat/wait a couple of seconds, or the tank isn't correctly pulling their rotation, a log of some of your encounters would be needed for us to tell you which is happening.

The reason we stack mastery/avoidance/stam over threat stats past the block softcap is that more encounters wipe due to tank death than DPS overaggroing, and as threat isn't really much of an issue you can either be harder to kill, or produce excess threat... and i'd prefer being harder to kill/easier to heal.

Expertise is greater than hit becuase per rating expertise increases your chance to connectr more than hit rating does (until the soft cap) 931 hit rating removes 8% chance to miss, 781 expertise rating removes 6.5 % chance to be dodged and 6.5% chance to be parried

Riverune
03-03-2011, 12:58 AM
Okay here are 2 recent logs:
- Chimaeron: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a7u9suyxwozch79j/details/1/?s=4678&e=4739
- Valiona: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a7u9suyxwozch79j/details/1/?s=7711&e=8038

Loganisis
03-03-2011, 01:21 AM
Heroic raid tanks have mentioned that they tend to start running more expertise for greater threat as DPS really gears up as a MD doesn't always cover it until they are at full vengence, but unless you're running a 333 weapon and a mix of 333/346s and the DPS is running 359s, with a good rotation, vengence covers as Teng said.

DPS may need to be a little smarter on the pull and wait a little longer to pop CDs, but that's not a big detriment, as it's usually only 10-15 seconds at most.

Riverune
03-03-2011, 01:27 AM
Okay thanks for the feed back. So with what you have said, am I okay stat-wise, looking at dodge, parry, block // hit and expertise? Because nonetheless I "am" having some threat problems, I thought the little boost would be enough.

Loganisis
03-03-2011, 01:39 AM
Riverune - when are you having the threat issues? First 30 seconds, later in the fight?

Riverune
03-03-2011, 01:41 AM
start of the fight, and after taunting off the other tank to take over. A side note, we have no MD's in our raid group.

Loganisis
03-03-2011, 01:52 AM
Hit/Exp is still problably not going to help you much.

First, dealing with tank swaps. Vig the other tank. It doesn't take his threat, it just builds your vengence. It's free vengence. Use it. (I didn't see it cast at all, maybe I missed in the logs.

Second, dealing with starting off - what's your rotation and how long does the DPS wait? With no miss-directs they should probably give you 3 GCDs to establish a threat lead and wait until you have a 300-400k threat lead before popping CDs.

Until you get vengence stacked, you're not going to be hitting hard enough to allow them to use their CDs willy nilly. It's the way the game is now.

What is your openning rotation? Something like:

Heroic THrow -> Charge/Shieldblock -> SS -> go?

At a minimum shieldblock on the pull even if you can't charge, is very useful for threat.

I don't know how to pull info out of WoL well enough to see when they're using their CDs.


Also, who is pulling off of you? You have 3 hand of salvs and the mage can dump right? Which leaves the shammy and the warrior - who should have omen3 up and watching their threat.

Riverune
03-03-2011, 01:58 AM
1) Yep vig is always up I make sure of that.
2) rotation/priority list: HT -> charge if in range -> shield block -> SS then priority goes SS > revenge > HS (if excess or stable income of rage) > shockwave > devastate > TC to keep up debuff.
3)It isnt exactly a case of dps pulling threat (except for conclave nature boss cause dps know he doest hit hard x] ) but coming close, and the other tank can steal aggro though after a recent taunt..1 bad luck occasion was Chimaeron, I taunted for double attack and the MT got aggro and actually took the hit (once off I know but not good to say the least).

Loganisis
03-03-2011, 02:21 AM
Damn, lost it...

Okay -

First - when taunt swapping, the tank that gets taunted off should lay off and just auto-attack, or even cancel that if needed. He's going to have a full stack of vengence, that even vig'd, you won't be able to compete with.

Second - suggestions for improving TPS:
A) Non-active tank is reponsible for attack speed and damage debuff (every tank has the equivalent of TC and Demo Shout). This allows the active tank to focus on TPS (and first 2 GCDs after taunted off would be a great time to apply them to give the other tank some breathing room).

B) Reapply rend. This is because it has an AP function - so a refreshed rend isn't going to be as powerful as a reapplied rend from what I understand (Wartotem and Koji both say to let if fall off an reapply for max TPS - and I think it's because the refresh doesn't account for new AP from Vegnence).

C) You have 2 prot specs, since you said you refresh rend with TC, you're using your utility build for this fight? You may want to adjust your TPS build. Take the points out of blood craze in the builid that doesn't have Blood and Thunder and put them in Deepwounds.

Deep wounds is the best TPS talent. It's better than cruelty and it's better than incite (but it makes incite and cruelty better as well, there's a synergy there). So if TPS is a problem, I'd use your non-PH build with the bloodcraze points in Deepwounds. That should help a lot, could improve your TPS by 5-10%

****

HS isn't part of the rotation, don't wait to use it if you have rage. It's not on the GCD.

I think you'll find that a little respec-ing and a little more coordination between you and the other tank will improve things drastically.

***

One thing I wish I knew, is if TC is still considered a ranged attack - I don't think it is, so I don't think there's a gun enchant worth using. dunno on that one.

Sebadoh
03-03-2011, 02:26 AM
B) Reapply rend. This is because it has an AP function - so a refreshed rend isn't going to be as powerful as a reapplied rend from what I understand (Wartotem and Koji both say to let if fall off an reapply for max TPS - and I think it's because the refresh doesn't account for new AP from Vegnence).

I know that DoT's and HoT's (from my caster toons) refresh their SP/Haste/whatever values with each tick. I don't know if Rend functions the same way with AP, but it's worth looking up.

Riverune
03-03-2011, 02:26 AM
Thank you for the great amount of information, very appreciated. When I said TC to re apply debuff I meant the slow debuff, not rend, but the build without BnT is my single target build. As for HS I didnt mean for it to be part of the rotation or priority, I meant that I only ever use it when I have plenty of rage xD my bad wording. I will go ahead and try out your recommendations, thank you again!
Riverune.

Tengenstein
03-03-2011, 10:54 AM
comparing your valiona to my valiona, your getting about 1 HS every 5.1 seconds. I'm managing to use HS every 3.3 seconds on average. Also i don't see any Inner rage up time you, so youre missing out on some more HS's there.

Additionally, no consussion blows? CB still has it's silly 2xDamage threat modifyer, making it one of your best uses of the fourth GCD after an SS. You may be doing this but your priority system doesn't seem to convey that, but i made this post detailing the prot roation/priority system.

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?74461-Warrior-Prot-What-is-a-better-skill-rotation-for-tanking


I assume the reason manually reapplying rend is a threat gain is becuase you only get certain GCDs to refersh rend with a TC without compromising the SnB proc cycle, and breaking that is not a threat gain.

kopcap
03-03-2011, 11:09 AM
Put CB and HT into your rotation, both give massive threat.

HS should not be thought of as a key part of the rotation, its really easy to starve yourself looking at it this way on some fights. Think of it as a proc I guess.

Use Inner Rage at the start of appropriate fights and try to maintain it later on when situation allows.

Prepot str potion.

If a swap tank steals aggro after the taunt, its his fault not yours.