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View Full Version : Tanking Protection Paladin upcoming changes in PTR Patch 4.1



Contravene
03-01-2011, 02:39 PM
Here is a focused list of the upcoming changes in 4.1 which will effect Paladin Tanks. From this list I am mostly concerned with WoG healing but I am really happy that I will not have to worry about missing my interrupts. Anyone see anything else in the PTR that will have a major effect on how we play? or specifically what does Talent Specializations mean, is this stuff yet to be revealed?


Classes: Paladins

* Word of Glory now has a 20-second cooldown.

* Talent Specializations


-=>] Holy [<=-

* Aura Mastery: This ability no longer increases the benefit granted by Crusader Aura.

* Walk in the Light (passive) removes the cooldown of Word of Glory.


-=>] Protection [<=-

* Divine Guardian cooldown is now 3 minutes, up from 2.

-=>] Retribution [<=-

* Divine Storm now generates 1 point of Holy Power if it hits (i.e. successfully lands on) 4 or more targets.

* Sacred Shield's internal cooldown has been increased to 60 seconds, up from 30.


Classes: General

* All non-damaging interrupts off the global cooldown will now always hit the target. This includes Pummel, Shield Bash, Kick, Mind Freeze, Rebuke, Skull Bash, Counterspell, Wind Shear, Solar Beam, Silencing Shot, and related player pet abilities.

Doc309
03-06-2011, 10:44 AM
i really wonder how the WoG change will play out. especially for prot pallys.
is the Eternal Glory talent different?

Brah
03-12-2011, 06:58 PM
is the WoG part for removing the CD unreachable for Prot?

Fetzie
03-12-2011, 07:53 PM
The CD removal is holy spec only.

The eternal glory talent will merely refund HoPo so you can use it for Inquisition or ShoR.

dagimp007
03-14-2011, 12:52 PM
i been posting all over on Tankadin forums.... this change is really small...

they are really making it like snipe heal when needed.

Crittable
03-15-2011, 01:25 PM
I don't play a prot pally but I play with quite a few of them. Most of them use WoG every chance they get 3 holy power because it helps with healing and they say it does quite a bit of threat, but won't this change make it nicer for most pallies? Instead of deciding whether they need a heal or more dmg/threat (from the shield slam thing), they can just WoG on cooldown and shield for the rest of the holy power dumps. They're already having to make a choice on HotR vs. Crusader Strike right? This is just one less choice that they have to make.

Contravene
03-15-2011, 01:31 PM
I think if they nerf'd it out of the rotation it would help me put it behind me.. I actually was maintaining Hit/Exp for awhile to specifically use WoG healing and now it is ingrained into my thinking. Even though I am all into mitigation now I still use my HoPo to heal when needed and available. So basically this is what I manage.

1. Make sure Holy Shield doesn't drop while trying to build that 3 HoPo. If so fire WoG/SoTR right now!
2. When HoPo is full heal or dps.
3. If I just fired WoG fire a taunt behind it... (Scramble for threat)

Crittable
03-15-2011, 01:43 PM
But your #1 is exactly what I am talking about. Wouldn't it eliminate that choice? If WoG is up, use it... if it's down, use shield.

Also, for your #3, why use taunt in a rotation? Even though pally taunts cause dmg, it still only puts you on top of the person above you (which should be no one and, if that's the case, doesn't move your threat at all). Use judgement or crusader strike after you use your WoG? That provides more threat than taunt would unless someone is actually topping you in threat.

But this is all coming from a person who dabbled, but failed, in pally tanking at 4.0. I tanked from about 3.3 to 4.0 but not heavily. Just enough to learn the spells. I now heal or ret on my pally, but ret is only for questing/dailies.

Selyndia
03-15-2011, 02:02 PM
Word of Glory threat was substantially nerfed a bit ago, and now generates almost none. Similar to how Death Strike in 4.1 will no longer generate healing threat. However, in the current environment, threat is almost a non issue after a couple seconds so it doesn’t really matter.

Also, several paladins have started saving Word of Glory to smooth out damage spikes instead of just mashing it on cool down. An example is saving it until immediately after an Engulfing Shadow on Maloriak heroic, or Crackle on Nef to make it easier to top them off. In these situations, the cool down doesn’t really matter much since it’s often being held off several seconds anyways.

Next, Crusader Strike and Shield of the Righteous do not share a cool down, so there is no decision between them. Crusader Strike should be used on cool down, with a filler being used in between. That filler being a Holy Power ability when applicable.

Paladin taunts no longer cause damage, and haven’t since 4.03. They also didn’t deal damage unless their target had someone else targeted so using Hand of Reckoning on a mob already attacking you did nothing except help put the boss on taunt DR.

Finally, Grand Crusader is also being changed and not listed here. It will now provide an additional Holy Power when you use the Grand Crusader Proc. This should smooth out Holy Power generation a bit and further reduce the need for Hit and Expertise.

Contravene
03-15-2011, 02:28 PM
Crittable yeah it would be better though if they just removed WoG all together or made it unusable because with 20 second cooldown it is still in play..

I didn't read to taunt after WoG from anyone this is my own idea and can be a bad one but.. Taunting after using WoG keeps things from coming loose threat wise as long as there is no delay it seems to just step threat back up to where I was before the WoG heal when observing Omen and it keeps everything tight still. So it would typically be; WoG, RD, HoTR but alternatively could be WoG, Hand of Reckoning, CS

Crittable
03-15-2011, 02:37 PM
Try substituting judgement for your taunts. Pay attention to your tps while using taunts and while substituting it with judgement or crusader strike. It should go up more than using taunts.
Taunts should never be in an actual rotation. They should only be used for getting back on top of threat when someone else is pulling ahead.

Crittable
03-15-2011, 02:41 PM
[FONT=Arial]Next, Crusader Strike and Shield of the Righteous do not share a cool down, so there is no decision between them. Crusader Strike should be used on cool down, with a filler being used in between. That filler being a Holy Power ability when applicable.


I never said crusader strike and shield share a cooldwon... I said that the choices a pally tank has to make are between shield and WoG and between crusader strike and hammer of the righteous.
That is interesting to note that the pally taunt no longer does damage. That's something that I didn't know changed.

Derkenne
04-24-2011, 03:03 PM
Has anybody had a look at how this affects our talents trees , at the moment 0/31/10 spec seems to be popular.
I have been playing around with the talents and can only come up with a spec with the sacrifice of the Pursuit of Justice, I am liking the Buffing and Redsign of the Prot Tree talents.
See what you guys think MMO Champ has the current PTR 4.1 Talent Builds. I am considering dropping the 50 mastery to Feet to pick up Runspeed/Stam enchant.
Divinity talents is now called Protector of the Innocent - 3% healing to EVERYONE in you raid/affected by Devotion Aura and boosts the damage of your Ret Aura by 60%
Reckoning now has 3 talent points to put in for 30% chance for the 4 extra swings after successful block
and likewise Seals of the Pure now has 3 talents also for a 15% buff to damage from Seal of Truth up from 12%

Contravene
04-25-2011, 03:39 PM
I haven't even looked at any of this yet because I have been so panicked over my Ret Pally in PVP but I guess I better start looking at it.. Where did you see the specs on MMO? WoG nerf does hurt by the way it doesn't make anything easier because after awhile you just reflex cast it or SoTR correctly without too much thought. But I am not too worried about my tank he will be fine.

Fetzie
04-25-2011, 03:49 PM
MMOC is currently down for maintenance so I can't check there, but the wowhead talent calculator at ptr.wowhead.com does not have that change to divinity, neither have I seen such a patch note anywhere.

I am thinking about something like this:
http://ptr.wowhead.com/talent#sZGMhcRddRRucrM:oscbqRMzm

I don't know whether to take EG anymore, I'm thinking SotP might edge ahead now that we cannot WoG back to back. Also a utility thing, whether or not to take Guardian's Favor instead of 2 points in rule of law. A 3 minute CD on Hand of Protection would be pretty awesome for Halfus heroic, magmaw heroic etc.


Last edited by Crittable; 03-15-2011 at 11:43 PM. Reason: Apparently pally taunts no longer do damage. Thank you Selyndia.
Hand of Reckoning only ever did damage when the enemy was not targetting you anyway.

jere
04-26-2011, 04:48 AM
Divinity talents is now called Protector of the Innocent - 3% healing to EVERYONE in you raid/affected by Devotion Aura and boosts the damage of your Ret Aura by 60%
Reckoning now has 3 talent points to put in for 30% chance for the 4 extra swings after successful block
and likewise Seals of the Pure now has 3 talents also for a 15% buff to damage from Seal of Truth up from 12%

That's the old 4.0.1 talents before they got changed.

Stephanius
04-26-2011, 05:27 AM
Righteous Fury now persists through death.

Protection

Divine Guardian cooldown is now 3 minutes, up from 2.
Grand Crusader will now generate a charge of Holy Power if the Avenger Shield it procs is used within 6 seconds.
Sacred Duty can now be activated by Avenger's Shield in addition to Judgements. The effect now lasts 10 seconds, down from 15.



Righteous Fury persists through death - just like auras were made to in a previous patch. That means BoM/BoK and you are good to go. Nice.
More holy power is always welcome. Healing threat is usually 1/2 of the healing effect, so using your holy power charges for shield of the righteous should be - without hidden threat components - always be more effective for threat.

jere
04-26-2011, 05:31 AM
While healing threat in general is 1/2 threat, healing threat for WoG is 0.



I don't know whether to take EG anymore, I'm thinking SotP might edge ahead now that we cannot WoG back to back.

Personally, EG really isn't very useful anymore (in my opinion). With the cooldown on WoG being 20s, the HP savings would totally be for ShoR, making EG a threat talent. They sim'ed it up at maintankadin and it gave pretty abysmal threat values compared to SotP

Bladesong
04-26-2011, 04:36 PM
Most of them use WoG every chance they get 3 holy power because it helps with healing and they say it does quite a bit of threat, but won't this change make it nicer for most pallies? Instead of deciding whether they need a heal or more dmg/threat (from the shield slam thing), they can just WoG on cooldown and shield for the rest of the holy power dumps.

I find decision making to be more interesting and hence, more fun, than simply using something on cooldown. Having said that, this change to WoG will have little effect on my priorities. I'll still save it for the big, known damage spikes and will just do more dps and less healing in between. The only place where I'd miss the extra healing is Nef and it will probably be offset by me being able to go with my regular tanking gear/elixir/food instead of having to adjust my gear/elixir/food to get hit capped for interrupts.


Taunts should never be in an actual rotation.
To follow up on this, taunts don't actually *do* anything if you already have threat. Going off of memory (a dicey proposition at my age) I believe that a taunt just checks to see what the highest threat value is and gives you that much threat + 1. On the down side, some bosses used to go taunt immune if you taunted too often in a short time period (not sure if they still do or not).

jere
04-26-2011, 05:02 PM
To follow up on this, taunts don't actually *do* anything if you already have threat. Going off of memory (a dicey proposition at my age) I believe that a taunt just checks to see what the highest threat value is and gives you that much threat + 1.

As a point of reference Taunts (only actual taunts) do the following:
1. Set you equal to the target's 100% threat target if you are not.
2. Set your threat exactly equal to that of the person who was originally the 100% threat target
3. Force the target to attack you for 3 seconds (modified by diminishing returns if applicable...some bosses do not have DR on taunts and some do). This is called a Fixate and puts a debuff on the target.

So technically, taunting will do at least #3 even if 1 and 2 are not applicable. "Fake" taunts, as I like to call them, do only #3 and have a longer duration (usually 6 seconds). These include mocking blow (is that still in the game?), challenging shout, and challenging roar.

However, I do agree that you shouldn't taunt every time it is up because, as you indicated, it doesn't do anything functional (except the fixate, which can be useful in some situations)

Bladesong
04-27-2011, 09:17 PM
My bad, I had thought that Taunts (Hand of Reckoning) and Fixates (Righteous Defense) had different mechanics. But then again, I haven't read up on them since the Gormok fight :)

jere
04-28-2011, 04:14 AM
Actually, Righteous Defense is a Taunt as well. Both HoR and RD are taunts. A bit of history, but RD was actually the first taunt paladins got (got it in BC). HoR didn't come till much later in WotLK where we had a lot more trouble with the four horseman boss in Nax due to RD taunting up to 3 adds and thus taking both horsemen.