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Dogmeat
02-28-2011, 11:52 PM
So I've just read the updated patch-notes for the 4.1 PTR and I came across the following

Shield Mastery no longer affects the cooldown of Spell Reflection, however, it now allows Shield Block to reduce magic damage as well.
Which Imo could potentially be one of the most interesting Prot-Warrior changes in the patch... It would be extremely interesting to hear if anyone on the PTR has any additional information about this... How much reduction are we talking about, is it guaranteed reduction etc etc...?

Kojiyama
03-01-2011, 03:40 AM
Will be interesting to see how much it is. It's a nice change.

Spell Reflect is being changed to a 25s cooldown, though, which makes it quite difficult to use now. But the Shield Block change seems like a better trade-off.

I'm not totally sure why it's being put on Shield Mastery though--that's already a required talent with its current effects. Should be a Protection spec passive. (Not that it really makes much difference, just a point of principle really. :P)

Mazar
03-01-2011, 05:53 AM
In PVE terms, I don't mind much, because yes you could get some fun results in instances, but its useless in raids. But in PVP terms the thing is, if every spec is getting hit by the SReflect change, why give the SBlock buff only to Protection? As I gather, is a survival trade off for Prot, and a survival nerf to Arms and Fury.

And feel free to correct me as I don't pvp much, but aren't we being devastating against casters except warlocks? Just asking.

Katatonic
03-01-2011, 07:49 AM
It's a great change and I welcome it, I'm trying to get on the PTR to find out how much spell reduction we're talking about.

But I feel the talent should increase the cooldown of SR by 15 seconds and instead shield block grants a spell damage reduction, this way it leaves the PvP alone, but not being that much of an active PvPer I wouldn't know if it's necessary.

Reev
03-01-2011, 07:51 AM
I'm worried the buff to Shield Block may end up being too much and get us nerfed in other ways. Warriors are fine as is.

Booi
03-01-2011, 08:04 AM
The spell reflect change might be in the hopes of making it more practical? With a 5 second CD they have to make important abilities bypass it - but with a 25 second CD perhaps we'll be able to use it in raids for Nefarian Barrage-style abilities.

Charnondall
03-01-2011, 12:27 PM
Shield Mastery (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/84608/shield-mastery/#13682/13698) no longer reduces the cooldown of Spell Reflect. Now causes your Shield Block to also reduce magic damage taken by 8/16/25%.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2194-Patch-4.1-on-PTRs-Build-13698

25%, not too bad

Reev
03-01-2011, 12:30 PM
That's pretty strong, for sure.

Crittable
03-01-2011, 12:48 PM
I have envied the druid talent to decrease spell damage and the DK anti-magic abilities, but I also used Spell Reflect as often as possible on bosses to gain rage that otherwise leave me starved. I will find a way around it, hopefully.

Loganisis
03-01-2011, 01:01 PM
I have envied the druid talent to decrease spell damage and the DK anti-magic abilities, but I also used Spell Reflect as often as possible on bosses to gain rage that otherwise leave me starved. I will find a way around it, hopefully.

There are a few specific bosses that this worries me about too.

Quinafoi
03-01-2011, 01:14 PM
I like that change overall cause it gives Prot more survivability against magic damage in general since many boss abilities which deal magic damage could not be reflected. And it makes sense that Spell Reflect would have to be nerfed a bit to compensate a little for the PvP balance.

It does make me wonder if they are going to be looking at the spell damage reduction capabilities of the other tanking classes. Especially if the next tiers of content may involve a bit more magic damage that a spell damage reduction cooldown is useful.

Overall though I think most PvE protection warriors will likely be happy with this change. PvP it is a little bit of a trade off. While you can't spell reflect as often, at the same time it is possible you may reflect something you didn't mean to in the first place effectively wasting it (you hit spell reflect when you see a particular spell being cast, but that doesn't prevent an instant from being cast and reflected first). This change to Shield Block instead will improve your survival time regardless in PvE or PvP.

Bonegreed
03-02-2011, 03:05 AM
I don't really like this being tied into shield block because you will find yourself trying to save it for a magic burst when you aren't even taking physical damage, effectively reducing the usefullness of shield block on physical damage reduction. I would rather have it talented or glyphed that spell reflect gets the 8/16/25 magic damage reduction and not the reflect allowing you to use it in raiding situations.

Katzazi
03-02-2011, 03:14 AM
You would save it for the most heavy dmg, or if the dmg is low enough anyway (or will be handled otherwise) just use it on CD for dmg. Most dmg spikes are on a multiple of 30s, anyway. At least at the moment I use it for the pull and than wait for the first important dmg spike and use it there. After that I can use it more or less on CD to cover spikes. Even know, while it does not have a magic reduction component, it's good to consider to use SB around magic dmg spikes. Because it reduces additional melee dmg around the spike.

I don't see a problem on the usage of SB with this change. Sure, it's not optimal to use it mindlessly on CD if you need it for survivel, but that's not the case at the moment, too. At the moment you try to use it at the most dangerous abilities. This does not change, too. It just let's it work better in some of this cases.

Quinafoi
03-02-2011, 07:46 AM
I don't really like this being tied into shield block because you will find yourself trying to save it for a magic burst when you aren't even taking physical damage, effectively reducing the usefullness of shield block on physical damage reduction. I would rather have it talented or glyphed that spell reflect gets the 8/16/25 magic damage reduction and not the reflect allowing you to use it in raiding situations.

It's actually funny you should mention that, cause I think that may be some of the reason why they made this change. So Shield Block wouldn't be a just push it when its off cooldown button. Blizzard wants you to think more about when you use your abilities rather than simply using them whenever they are off cooldown. Something else to consider as well is that 4.1 comes with a new tier of content and we will likely start to see tanks become passively unhittable and you may no longer require activation of Shield Block to reach that level of mitigation.

Booi
03-02-2011, 08:10 AM
The issue that we run into is:
Barkskin - 20% / 1 minute (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=22812)
Divine Protection - 20% / 1 minute (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=498)

With Shield Block exceeding 20% damage reduction on melee hits, and now including a 25% magic damage reduction - we're going to catch a nerf. Yes it doesn't work on bleeds/physical spells, but the vast majority of the time our 30 second CD trumps these other tank classes.

Of course that assumes the "all things equal" perspective, which they obviously aren't. But I don't think the "Spherical Chicken in a Vacuum" comparison is too off the mark when one CD is half the duration and better.

EDIT: changed the 40 to 20% to reflect the +25% (or doubling) crit block chance on the old shield block.

Tengenstein
03-02-2011, 09:44 AM
I am a little concerned that Port warriors minor CD, and main offensive CD , and only magic dmg rdx are all in the same ability, making it somewhat cumbersome. i can for see that where only one of the above 3 is needed on a specifi encounter we'd be OP, but wher you'd require all 3 but not at the same time, it becomes less than Ideal.

cattebrie
03-02-2011, 11:48 AM
I just wish they would tie the ability to spell reflect and not Shield block.

It would make it a more valuable ability in PvE than it is now, and with it on the same cooldown length as Shield block it can let you use them together if you wanted, or use them at different times depending on the fight.

thecrazyman
03-02-2011, 11:53 AM
Giving us an OP spell reduction better then other tanks is going to get hit hard with a nerf eventually. The only way I could see us getting it is making the percentage ~10% on the 30s CD that way we aren't better the other tank CD's. If you were to tie it to SW and SB together it would be 65%or 85% reduction of damage even for a few sec's that is really OP for warriors. The only way that it will stay at 25% is if other tanks CD are reduced down to our time frame. We already have 2min SW verse there 3min CD and now we get 25% reduction to magic on 30s verse their 20% on 1mn. Is it me or are warriors getting half the time on all CD items?

Tengenstein
03-02-2011, 03:16 PM
Gotta remember that the duration of the magic damage reduction on Shield block is half that of barkskin (6 seconds and 12 seconds respectively), so they end up having equal uptime, and their's doesn't have a resource cost. And that while SW is only a 2 minute CD its 40% as opposed to the 50% reduction other tanks get.

EDIT: i agree this should have been tied to Spell Relflection rather than SB

Stengel
03-03-2011, 06:52 AM
Shield Block is less than 20% physical damage reduction in T11 gear. Just clearing up a common misconception.

The new Shield Block is only overpowered if you look at it in a vacuum.
WoG is still good and the equivalent of a small cooldown (thanks to its shield on overheal).
Deathknight no comment needed.
Druids do lack a little something, I agree. However they also have passive 18% magical damage reduction vs the warriors 10%. Current contents favors cooldowns over passive reduction so their strong point hardly comes into play. If anyone is an outlier then it's druids.
However they also take less physical damage than other classes at the moment to my knowledge.

Reading this thread makes me think that some of you of warriors have gotten used to being worst or second worst tanking class due to WotlK.

Riz
03-03-2011, 07:29 AM
Paladans can glyph Divine Protection to be a 40% magic reduc and drop the phys reduc, and DK can glyph to lengthen the anti magi shield(though warr can glyph for shield wall to reduc 40 or60% phys dmg)...I dont see this change as being "op"...
I do however, wish theyd leave the 2 abilities (Shield Block, Spell Reflect) separate ....The shield seems to me made for a physical attack, and spell reflect is just that...Imo, tie it in with SR, or give it a 3rd ability similar to theDK Anti-Magic Shield(shouldve been called a bubble XD)..
I used to mash SR on cd, and save SB for dmg spikes..I've sincew learned to use both when neccesary and find them to be wonderful tools when utilized properly(on larger trash pulls with multiple casters, i still keep SR up on every cd, as it can mitigate the incoming spell of 2ndary targets)..



Seems to me, warrs are more the physicical defense, where as DK or paladin may have more magical advantage, they have less for physical..Just a thought..I havent really goneover many numbers since Cata..I'm stillplaying catch up =D

Zegai
03-04-2011, 04:08 AM
It probably wasn't given to shield reflect to make us choose which one we need in a certain fight. The latest patch notes says it is a separate buff given by shield block, reducing magic damage by 20% and lasts 6 seconds, so it certainly isn't overpowered.

Caric
03-04-2011, 12:39 PM
Problem is, under that formula, it comes off as a potential nerf or at the very least a barely break even. If you are forced to hold off on using a cooldown that is built into our survivability formula to achieve some other goal, you are taking more damage from the physical in hopes of correctly timing the reduction of the magical. I don't know how it shakes out but under the current formula I can't see it as a significant buff and very possibly a nerf in some situations.

Katzazi
03-04-2011, 01:38 PM
I don't see where you would lose on SB at the current content if it already had the magic reduction applied. Everything important happens on a 30s, 60s, 90s, 120s CD. In most cases you have either high melee dmg or high magic dmg to deal with. Not both.

Sure we don't know how future content will be. But Blizz knows wich CDs tanking abilities have. They don't just randomly put CDs on boss abilities.

Airowird
03-05-2011, 07:00 AM
The problem still exists that it is a cooldown, not a set timer.

If a boss decides to only use his/her ability after 40s, you will be forced to wait for it (rather than use SB on CD, as most do now), thus reducing the efficiency of the physical reduction by 25%. The same goes for the DPS gain from Heavy Repurcussions.
If it was part of Spell Reflect, it would actually simplify the use of SR for most Prot Warriors, as you would always want to use SR when the boss is casting a big spell, regardless if you can reflect it or not.

The result remains the same:
If you press SB on CD, you will still reduce as damage overall, but with little control over spikes.
If you keep SB for when bosses do big hits, you reduce the need for burst healing more, but will risk requiring more overall healing in the end.

Personally, I I very tempted to use SB on CD as always, because a lot of bosses still do instants that hurt a lot, such as Maloriak red vial or Nefarian's breath or even have constant AoE damage pulses, such as Al'Akir p2 or Cho'Gall. Only on more predictable fights such as Captain Elements p1 would it be worth it. But that phase is not about damage as much as it is about control.

Tengenstein
03-05-2011, 01:01 PM
It's a choice i don't want to have to make. i mean on chimaeron, do i pop SB for the double attacks or do i pop it to help the healers out during a feud? i'd much prefer they make Spell reflect a 30 sec CD and tie to that. warriors tool box is big, but i hate they way they try to make abilities do too many things (like intervene and safeguard), hell i'd prefer they didn't link it to anything rather than link it to SB, like say disarm!

Airowird
03-05-2011, 03:03 PM
It's relatively useless during Feud, as it will only last as long as the CD and you only get 1 spike in a 6s window.

Katzazi
03-05-2011, 03:22 PM
Question is easy: You use it for the double attacks. The magic dmg of feud is survivable, even non-tanks survive it and healers will spam AoE-heals anyway. But double attacks are not survivable in the worst case without SB. - So no question there. (And for heroic mode, it's more or less the same, anyway.)

Superworm
03-06-2011, 05:47 AM
Gotta remember that the duration of the magic damage reduction on Shield block is half that of barkskin (6 seconds and 12 seconds respectively), so they end up having equal uptime, and their's doesn't have a resource cost. And that while SW is only a 2 minute CD its 40% as opposed to the 50% reduction other tanks get.

EDIT: i agree this should have been tied to Spell Relflection rather than SB

I believe SB is 10 seconds duration?

Naka
03-06-2011, 10:33 AM
That's right, but they changed the magic reduction part to 6 sec in the latest PTR build.


Shield Mastery now reduces magic damage taken by 7/14/20% for 6 sec, instead of 8/16/25%.

Kojiyama
03-06-2011, 01:20 PM
Why do they make it so confusing? ><

Stengel
03-06-2011, 01:37 PM
Why do they make it so confusing? ><

In the name of flavor.

swelt
03-07-2011, 02:01 AM
Surely this is in the name of balance. 6s duration, 40s cd, 20% reduction brings this much closer to the line that other tanks can manage.

The thing that bothers me is that Shield Block is becoming a single tool for too many jobs. If you assume heavy repurcussions, it's:
- A core part of our physical defensive rotation, ideally saved for periods of heightened physical damage but generally used as frequently as possible
- A big part of our burst threat, ideally used very near the start of engaging a new opponent and then on cooldown (burst shield slam threat + guaranteed revenge procs and increased rage income from shield spec blocks)
- Our only magic reduction cooldown other than shield wall, ideally saved for 'breath weapons' and similar burst in magic damage (which often coincide with breaks in physical damage)

I'm not keen on it being implemented as a talent, mostly because that means it can't then be further tuned through glyphs. If it were a baseline or prot passive, it would be possible to have a glyph that altered it (like the DP glyph for paladins), but by tagging it to a 3 point talent they rule that out as an option.

I think I would have preferred to see spell reflection get a 2nd glyph option: a major 'Glyph of Spell Deflection' that increases the cooldown on spell reflection to something like 40 or 60 seconds but which turns it into a magic damage reduction ability.



Anyway, this is the theory section. Shouldn't we be trying to work out what impact such a change has on shield block uptime and thus stat weightings? I think good test cases would be Ignacious (flame torrent is hurty) and Nefarian (breath or crackle).

Stengel
03-07-2011, 02:37 AM
According to my spreadsheet, it doesn't change stat weightings to any significant degree. Even at 10% SB uptime (instead of 33%) and without the +1% bv meta mastery is still better than dodge/parry at my gear level.

Shield Block is a relatively small factor in our overall damage taken. It's about 18-19% dmg reduction with my T11-11.5 gear (depending on meta) and with 33% uptime that's just 5.9-6.2% dmg reduction over time. With half uptime it's half that, etc.

Kojiyama
03-07-2011, 02:48 AM
I do agree Swelt. Shield Block doing so many things combined with Shield Mastery doing so many things all feels a little overkill. Strikes me as combination syndrome in the same way as trying to hack together Bloodrage and Shouts. It just doesn't make much sense.

At the very least, the duration of effect being different doesn't help at all.

I agree that with Mastery being a fairly complex stat to factor and Shield Block being a major factor in that, making Shield Block (and thus Mastery) even more complex is a Bad Thing.

Fayre
03-07-2011, 05:45 AM
It strikes me that they've tacked it onto Shield Block because that's where it was in our Tier 8 set bonus. Hopefully someone will reconsider.

thecrazyman
03-07-2011, 08:15 AM
It is true they combined it with our SB before but also remember at roughly that point our avoids were higher then what we have now as too. Warrior tanks I will amitt have a lot of abilities and items to watch if they choose to do all the debuffs. Rolling SB to do more then block seems like too much simplification for us. Just give us another item to use by just adding it to spell reflect instead.

Loganisis
03-07-2011, 08:31 AM
Why do they make it so confusing? ><

┐For the ceremony of the experience?

Malaegis
03-07-2011, 01:21 PM
In PVE terms, I don't mind much, because yes you could get some fun results in instances, but its useless in raids. But in PVP terms the thing is, if every spec is getting hit by the SReflect change, why give the SBlock buff only to Protection? As I gather, is a survival trade off for Prot, and a survival nerf to Arms and Fury.

And feel free to correct me as I don't pvp much, but aren't we being devastating against casters except warlocks? Just asking.

I didn't see a reply to this, so I just thought I would point out that spell reflect requires either battle or defensive stance, but also requires a shield. As I am also not a huge PvP player, I suppose it is currently possible to swap your 2H weapon for a shield, use spell reflect, and then swap the weapon back. (I have honestly never tried this.. does the SR buff stay up for its duration when the shield is removed?) In general, though, prot warriors are the only ones who run around carrying a shield. Other warriors should be relatively unaffected by this change.

klausi
03-07-2011, 01:47 PM
In general, though, prot warriors are the only ones who run around carrying a shield. Other warriors should be relatively unaffected by this change.
You're running around with shield all the time you're foccused during higher level arenas. You need it for shield bash (longer lockdown + slow), shieldwall, shield block vs melees and obviously spellreflect.

But if you want to you can still specc into it for pvp at the cost of shorter shouts, battle trance & piercing howl.

As stated before i really can imagine some dps might specc into prot for nasty pve encounter with lots of magic stuff flying around as well unless they want to be dropped for a dps'ing rogue/dk/ret paladin, all having huge aoe damage reduction cooldowns.