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Tahua
02-25-2011, 01:25 AM
I come to you, the tankspot community for some much needed advice, guidance and maybe a good slap!

I am currently in a 'going nowhere fast' guild who are struggling to get Cata raiding off the ground. We have only recently attempted any raiding of any sort after stopping completely after WOTLK.

We are struggling at the first step - Magmaw. I have ran logs for the last two pretty woeful raid nights and am struggling to identify for sure where our problems lie. My feeling is that it is healing that is letting us down, though I dont want to point fingers without some considered thought. I enclose the logs for the last two raids for your perusal. The failing point seems to be losing a dps to a ghost mellee swing.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ut1e56coa0ozuv0a/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-b9ck074s2rv5c79h/

We are all on entry level raid gear, and by that I mean crafted epics, rep and heroic gear.
Any help would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

Couladin
02-25-2011, 01:52 AM
I am not very good at analyzing the logs, so not going to try. But I can tell you what our initial problems where with Magmaw.

I have main tanked Magmaw multiple times. In the nom nom phase Magmaw starts to eat the tank. The tank has to save cooldowns for that phase, the healer assigned to the tank also. The 2 dps that attach the chains have to do that at the same time and fast or the tank dies. Do this and that phase is not a problem anymore.

After the head comes up in original position again, let your main tank immediately taunt Magmaw and let the dps stop dps for 1 or 2 sec until the main tank is at Magmaw again. Threat resets.

We use a frost DK in blood prescence to kite the adds that spawn from the pillar. Use rogues, mages or other good aoe users to kill them. And do that fast.

We stack the raid left from Magmaw at the end of the area, ranged and close combat. There are 2 tactics, we prefer this one.

This where the main problems when we faced him for the first time. Now that we tackled these problems we can usually kill him in 1 or 2 attempts. Hope this helps you.

Oh, and I don't think Magmaw is a healer check although I never healed. So I think it would be strange if that is your problem. Only in the nom nom phase it's important to keep the tank up (fast dps with chains helps a lot). :)

woodyman
02-25-2011, 02:27 AM
If ur losing DPS to a boss hit it sounds like they are being over eager and need to back off a little.
Magmaw isnt really about gear IMO other than the tank being geared enough to survive the Nom nom phase and heals being vigilant enough to be ready to cope with the damage.
Its more about doing the right things at the right time and quickly and cleanly executing them.

tell the DPS to back off a little when the head comes back up, and try an get the healers an tank to use there CD's at the right times. communication is the key

Tahua
02-25-2011, 02:33 AM
Thanks for your replies.

What we are noticing is that after each 'head down' phase, one of the dps gets a melle hit. We have advised them to stack back but even at range they appear to be getting this hit. Is this purely down to them DPSing early? One thing to note is that it appears our Lock and SPriest are getting the hit, possibly due to DOTs being on him when he comes back up?

I am not sure if he comes back up 'clean' or if DOTs stay from the 'head down' period?

Couladin
02-25-2011, 03:49 AM
For as far as I know the head phase and normal phase are actually 2 "different" bosses. If that is true, than he comes back up clean, but not sure.

If those dps have threat, than they started to early. It's also possible that your tank is not reacting fast enough. If Magmaw has nobody in melee range, than his damage goes up very fast which wipes the raid. If he runs to him directly when the head comes back up, than this is no issue.

Don't know which of the 2 reasons is happening in your raid. :)

aresius
02-25-2011, 04:37 AM
As soon as the head is back up from being pinned Magmaw completely drops aggro. dps have to give the tank the standard 3-5 seconds to taunt and lay a couple of blows before dpsing, and hunters should MD and rogues trick. thats all there is to it.

Ryoku
02-25-2011, 05:14 AM
We do the fight with 1 tank only, having the tank heal and 2 "melee" dps on the left side in his hitbox. (I wrote melee between "" because we generally dont even have any in our raid).
So the rest of the raid has to run from the left to the right side of the room and back everytime pillar of flames hits.

We also hat the problem of getting the "melees" insta-gibbed b the boss when he came up. So what we do now is simply me calling out +/- 5 secs before the boss comes back up (big wigs announces it DBM doesn't) that they have to move away from the boss. I I am already repositioning my self and starting to hit an ability, which will not land on the exposed head, because I am to far but will hit straigt away Magmaw when he is back up. Then as soon as the ability did land I hit a taunt because somehow the casters are high on the aggro table and thats it. Works like a charm every time.

Edit:
I went to one of the logs, it seems to be a combination of people not getting enough heals (dying through lavaspit), tank not getting enough heal dying and whiping the raid, and the above mentioned problem.

Big wigs anounces the AOE damage, maybe it will help you to have both running, so you can announce when there is large AOE damage incomming.

Hnetto
02-25-2011, 06:37 AM
From the logs you seem to have a prot warrior working on parasites, Zhoudoo i think.

You can't have any melee attacking those or they will get infected and will take lots of damage and keep spamming more parasites.

My take on the fight is that you are using your prot warrior to try and tank the parasites, right?

If that is the case put the warrior on Magmaw, make the DK go DPS (he seems to be tanking) and help with the adds from distance, he can't go on melee at any point.

Also you seem to be very heavy on melee. In one group you have Fury Warrior, Prot Warrior, Unholy DK, Rogue and Feral Druid. On the other you have That is 5 out of 10. You might want to have your druid or shaman go balance or elemental. The knockback that both are capable of doing will help you dealing with the parasites.

BTW, you need to consider making one of then go ranged for the rest of the fights or you going to run into problems in several fights, Cho'gal for exemple.

woodyman
02-25-2011, 06:43 AM
Its not the way ur supposed to do it but i do know people who have downed magmaw by purely tankin the adds for the whole fight. they dont hit that hard

seaeagle
02-25-2011, 06:55 AM
I didn't look at your logs, but you describe a very common and misunderstood issue people have with Magmaw - melee hits on something other than the tank. There are two situations where Magmaw will melee someone, one when the tank is being mangled and one after the head comes up.

1) During Mangle. You're not getting the chains down fast enough, plain and simple. Magmaw will nom on the tank for a while and then he'll start meleeing again and he'll have to hit someone besides the tank, since the tank is in his mouth. If the chains take TOO long, the tank will die, but there's a window where you can still get the head down before the tank dies but Magmaw has had enough time to get in a melee or two.

2) After the head comes up. As other posters have said, Magmaw resets his aggro when he eats the tank - and the tank also loses his target. But...the tank can re-select Magmaw and taunt (and attack) him while he's being mangled. This is by far the easiest way to deal with the aggro reset. There have been many TS threads with other solutions but they all count on the tank re-taunting AFTER Magmaw's head comes back up and the timing is such that no matter how fast the tank is, you risk a gib on someone in melee range or a pillar of flame where you don't want it because people are out of melee range.

Hnetto
02-25-2011, 07:13 AM
I didn't look at your logs, but you describe a very common and misunderstood issue people have with Magmaw - melee hits on something other than the tank. There are two situations where Magmaw will melee someone, one when the tank is being mangled and one after the head comes up.

1) During Mangle. You're not getting the chains down fast enough, plain and simple. Magmaw will nom on the tank for a while and then he'll start meleeing again and he'll have to hit someone besides the tank, since the tank is in his mouth. If the chains take TOO long, the tank will die, but there's a window where you can still get the head down before the tank dies but Magmaw has had enough time to get in a melee or two.

2) After the head comes up. As other posters have said, Magmaw resets his aggro when he eats the tank - and the tank also loses his target. But...the tank can re-select Magmaw and taunt (and attack) him while he's being mangled. This is by far the easiest way to deal with the aggro reset. There have been many TS threads with other solutions but they all count on the tank re-taunting AFTER Magmaw's head comes back up and the timing is such that no matter how fast the tank is, you risk a gib on someone in melee range or a pillar of flame where you don't want it because people are out of melee range.

Two corrections on this.

1) While the tank is being mangled Magmaw does not melee. He will start doing so again once the tank is dead. Which doesn't take long if you don't do the chains btw.

2) Aggro does not reset during mangle, but since you are a good 10 to 15 inside his mouth being eaten DPS might catch you on threat. Just watch the exposed head debuff when he is down, when it's missing 2 or 3 seconds move back to your tanking spot and get ready to taunt him.

Quinafoi
02-25-2011, 09:25 AM
Aggro doesn't reset during Mangle, it resets when the exposed head releases itself from being impaled. The unit actually changes, the health is shared between them. There is the unit Magmaw (http://www.wowhead.com/npc=41570) and there is the unit Exposed Head of Magmaw (http://www.wowhead.com/npc=48270). When the unit switches back to Magmaw (his upright position), aggro does reset. It has nothing to do with DPS catching up. It has everything to do with the unit temporarily despawning and respawning with a reset aggro table.

As for the original poster's issues with the encounter. I think you need to change your strategy as others have suggested. It isn't that your healers can't measure up, it's that you're simply taking more damage than you should be (by tanking the adds instead of kiting or killing them). Your off tank is taking about two thirds the damage of your main tank and this is a rather heavy tank damage encounter. It isn't that your healer throughput of 25-30k isn't sufficient to kill the encounter. It's that you're strategy involves you taking 35k in incoming damage.

Correct your method and you should be able to handle the boss no problem. Tanking the adds naturally requires more healing than killing them or kiting them cause killing them or kiting them you take no damage from them. I should also point out the achievement, Parasite Evening (http://www.wowhead.com/achievement=5306). You're not supposed to be taking hits from the parasites the achievement is for avoiding unnecessary damage (not standing in fire).

Quinafoi
02-25-2011, 09:32 AM
To put healing in perspective. On our third kill (so a few kills in, but still a little sloppy) we did a total (the entire raid, 3 healers and self healing of any DPS or tank) of 23k HPS for the fight. You are doing more HPS than that, it's just your strategy involves taking way more damage than you need to be. It isn't that you aren't able to heal the necessary damage, but that you're taking unnecessary damage.

Predakhan
02-25-2011, 09:50 AM
As a melee that has been killed a few times by Magmaw when he comes up from being spiked I believe it is not an aggro issue but rather a proximity one. He seems to melee the closet person after coming up regardless of threat. Just have them back away a bit and they should not see anymore of these deaths.

Griff
02-25-2011, 12:50 PM
I'm not melee any more, but IIRC, Magmaw has a cleave so maybe your melee are straying too close to his cleave danger zone?

Theotherone
02-25-2011, 12:55 PM
I'm not melee any more, but IIRC, Magmaw has a cleave so maybe your melee are straying too close to his cleave danger zone?

Yeah we had a healer that kept getting one shotted by this.

Zaitochi
02-25-2011, 01:01 PM
I've tanked Magmaw a few times myself, the tank is on one side while the melee is on the other. If your dps fail to impale Magmaw's head in time your tank will die so whoever is doing that needs to call it out on vent and coordinate.

After the Exposed Head of Magmaw phase is over what I do is click and taunt Magmaw right away and most of the time I can save the melee from getting smacked really hard or sometimes they are left with a sliver of HP left lol

uglie
02-25-2011, 07:14 PM
Our last magmaw kill we were able to get the achieve using only 1 melee, 1 tank, 1 disc, 1 resto shammy, and the rest ranged
(1 balance and a fire mage) and my co pally tank used his heal spec. Pally would stand away out in the middle of the room at max range from the dps and just move for pillar of flame and used the chains with the melee. If the parasites got close the druid would knock them back.
key notes:
1)Make sure all ranged and healers besides your pillar target are standing as close to the ledge as possible otherwise the pillar could target whoever isnt standing close enough and do some major dmg to the group.
2)If a parasite jumps onto someone they will apply a debuff to that person that will explode causing aoe dmg to the raid and spawn new adds which will do the same thing.
3) after he comes up from being chained down and immediate tank taunt is needed. The way i deal with this is a few seconds before magmaw comes back up I reposition myself so that I am able to immediately taunt and attack. Make sure to have your dps stop attacking a second or 2 before he comes up.
As tank I use the prismatic elixir for my guardian elixir to help with magma spit. Dps and healers could use this as well if they are not using a flask.

Moonr
03-03-2011, 04:23 AM
Yeah we had a healer that kept getting one shotted by this.

Think that is a positioning issue..