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View Full Version : Warrior Cruelty vs. Incite



mrwisdom
02-23-2011, 10:17 AM
Hello, currently i am running with this build.
http://wowtal.com/#k=_m2-_o4_.aei.warrior.RXJwtp

I was curious if it would be more beneficial to take the 2 points out of cruelty and place them in incite. And the spec would look like this: http://wowtal.com/#k=_5vLJ0jg.aei.warrior.qBqQf5

I have gone through some of my logs and on most fights HS is not at the top usually 2 or 3 and wanted some input from others if they have tried this spec or their thoughts on if its worth it or not.

thanks

Ricovega
02-23-2011, 01:16 PM
personally i take both, i still dont see what the fetish is with deep wounds even in WOTLK if ur tanking trash fair enough but for raiding its just limited especially when rend should be in a prot warriors rotation after 3 stacks of sunder with it being refreshed by thunderclap

those 6 points being used to get 3/3 deep wounds could be used to get three other talents needing 2 points each which would in turn increase the number of tools available in ur tanking arsenal which will make you more versatile and effective

MellvarTank
02-23-2011, 02:42 PM
I don't even know what you are talking about. There is nothing wrong with deep wounds if you choose to go that route. It isn't 100% necessary, but that doesn't mean it isn't handy. Cruelty is lackluster to me, and I would take incite over cruelty unless I was going for a Piercing Howl build.

praetoria
02-23-2011, 02:48 PM
it all depends what you want out of the build. if this is purly a single target build, you want to drop B&t... full incite, full cruelty. there arer plenty of threads running right now about applying rend via gcd, not thunderclap. this would be your max tps single target spec.

is that what your looking for? a max single target spec?

or are you looking for an aoe spec?

or are you looking for a utility spec?

it really matters

Kojiyama
02-23-2011, 04:18 PM
Deep Wounds is a lot better than Cruelty (almost twice as good) if people are wondering. :)

Incite and Cruelty don't really compete directly though. You get Incite if you want TPS when maxing out the Protection tree. You get Cruelty if you want TPS after you have maxed the Protection tree. In a TPS build, you should already have Incite before you have the chance to pick Cruelty at all.

However, for a single-target spec (as has been discussed elsewhere) as you have 33 points in Protection, possibly the most optimal thing to do is to get rid of Improved Revenge for Cruelty and drop Revenge from your rotation. However, you may still want the Revenge splash damage.

If, for some reason, you are choosing between Incite and Cruelty, they are really quite equal actually. Incite is likely slightly better.

squats
02-23-2011, 04:20 PM
personally i take both, i still dont see what the fetish is with deep wounds even in WOTLK if ur tanking trash fair enough but for raiding its just limited especially when rend should be in a prot warriors rotation after 3 stacks of sunder with it being refreshed by thunderclap

those 6 points being used to get 3/3 deep wounds could be used to get three other talents needing 2 points each which would in turn increase the number of tools available in ur tanking arsenal which will make you more versatile and effective


Deep wounds causes a decent amount of threat.
Just because rend is in your rotation doenst mean that deep wounds is any less valuable. Your trying to compare apples to apples here.. but one of the apples may look like an apple.. when its actually an orange... it just doesnt work that way.

feralminded
02-25-2011, 07:48 AM
Deep wounds causes a decent amount of threat.
Just because rend is in your rotation doenst mean that deep wounds is any less valuable. Your trying to compare apples to apples here.. but one of the apples may look like an apple.. when its actually an orange... it just doesnt work that way.

Yeah ... if anyone can tell me what rend has to do with deep wounds ... well I'm listening but don't expect me to eat your magic mushrooms to get it. Of all the optional TPS talents, deep wounds is currently #1 ... be it AoE, single target, your momma ... whatever.

Disruptor
02-26-2011, 03:27 AM
Imo DW is completely useless. Can you support your assumptions with logs? I never saw DWs passing 3% of overall damage which is not worth to skill 3/3 WA. SS is the most reliable and efficient threatproduction. The threat modifier on SS damage is pretty huge. HR and Cruelty are the way to go right now.

Kojiyama
02-26-2011, 05:05 AM
There is no threat modifier on Shield Slam any more.

The value of Deep Wounds is in pure math. How much percent of your total damage is Shield Slam? What percent of that is critical damage? How much is 10% of that value? Cruelty is alright, but it's not as valuable as you think it is.

feralminded
02-26-2011, 09:13 AM
Imo DW is completely useless. Can you support your assumptions with logs? I never saw DWs passing 3% of overall damage which is not worth to skill 3/3 WA. SS is the most reliable and efficient threatproduction. The threat modifier on SS damage is pretty huge. HR and Cruelty are the way to go right now. Nothing you just said makes any sense at all and I believe you must be severely confused or misinformed. Shield Slam indeed does huge threat but has no modifier anymore. There are no modifiers anymore. Additionally the more damage you do with shield slam the better deep wounds becomes. Shield slam crits produce deep wounds just like anything else. For the record deep wounds produces an average of ~5% of my damage on fights I tank. That's significantly higher than cruelty can manage.

Disruptor
02-26-2011, 09:49 AM
Maybe im misinformed. But usually every style had a base threat + damage as additional threat. Usually SS had a very low base threat compared to all other styles. Maybe I used the wrong term with threat modifier but SS crits in def stance yield tons of threat. . Are there any updated threat tables available? I'm pretty positive some important things changed.

@Koji
Imo Cruelty is very strong combined with HR. SS crit with SB up should be huge amounts of threat.

I need some logs for DW. If you do not have the 5% crit buff you only have crit due to HtL and some increased crit on specific styles. And I do not like WA 15% dmg on Devastate sounds awful.

feralminded
02-26-2011, 10:31 AM
Yeah this all changed with 4.0.1 back in October. Threat = damage x (some multiplier ... I think its around 3 but not precisely sure). Strictly speaking anything that makes you do more damage does a linear amount more threat since 4.0.1. So if adding 3% more crit makes you do 3% more damage or adding deep wounds makes you do 5% more damage, deep wounds wins. This is true for anything you can do across the board.

feralminded
02-26-2011, 11:11 AM
Man you're SOOOO misinformed. 15% damage on devastate is AWESOME. It brings Devastate right up there with revenge to the point that some people are dropping improved revenge (I'm seriously considering it). I think you need to some serious research on the current state of warrior threat ... you seem to have A LOT of misconceptions. I'm not sure where you're pulling them from but you're just flat out wrong on so many things it's hard to communicate. Devastate is huge for us now, specially after the 4.0.6 patch. War Academy is a fantastic threat talent. Deep wounds > cruelty. Threat increases linearly with damage.

If you want to argue whether we NEED threat boosting talents or not, fine we can have that discussion. But when it comes to which talents provide the most threat bonus you seem to have it completely backwards. It's frustrating as this isn't a matter of opinion ... as Koj said above this is simple arithmetic.

Disruptor
02-26-2011, 11:28 AM
EDIT: As long as there are no exact calculations I am not misinformed. That is why I was asking for them or logs. And I think you can't understand my reasoning because I am raiding 10s. And in 10man-content I would never ever skip Safeguard. I would not even recommend to skip Blood craze, especially not in 10s. And DW loses its value without 5% crit buff

Loganisis
02-26-2011, 12:14 PM
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?71824-The-Cataclystic-Protection-Warrior-Spreadsheet

With his base character in there, 0 points in war academy, 0 points in deep wounds, 0 points in cruelty: TPS = 22342.08
With his base character in there, 0 points in war academy, 0 points in deep wounds, 2 points in cruelty: TPS = 23035.48
With his base character in there, 3 points in war academy, 0 points in deep wounds, 0 points in cruelty: TPS = 23172.58
With his base character in there, 3 points in war academy, 3 points in deep wounds, 0 points in cruelty: TPS = 25091.92

From 0 to 2 for Cruely, 693.4 TPS / 2 = 346.7 TPS/talent point
From 0 to 6 for WA/DW, 2759.84 TPS / 6 = 458.306666repeating TPS/talent point.

Cruelty looks to be slightly better than WA on a per-talent point basis (1 points for only a 140 more TPS) but when you look at DW - it does come out on top, giving almost 33% more TPS per talent point.

Now, as Feral said, if you want to discuss whether you need the TPS and maybe more survability/raid tools with fewer threat modifiers is what you want, but the math is there.

Disruptor
02-26-2011, 12:47 PM
Thanks for this information. I was looking for facts like that and it is a beginning. But these calculations do not satisfy me. Incite/T11 influences DW, as 5% crit buff does. Your parry value increases the value of DW. And HR and Cruelty both benefit from each other. SS with HR and SB is the highest hitting ability and scales better than any other style.There are way more influences to look at.

Loganisis
02-26-2011, 01:11 PM
First, those calcuations included HR uptime and 3/3 incite. So HR, WA/DW > Cruelty without the set bonus.

Now with the set bonus

With his base character in there, 0 points in war academy, 0 points in deep wounds, 0 points in cruelty: TPS = 22826.90 with set bonus
With his base character in there, 0 points in war academy, 0 points in deep wounds, 2 points in cruelty: TPS = 23575.24 with set bonus
With his base character in there, 3 points in war academy, 0 points in deep wounds, 0 points in cruelty: TPS = 23657.40 with set bonus
With his base character in there, 3 points in war academy, 3 points in deep wounds, 0 points in cruelty: TPS = 25576.74 with set bonus

so

Base is 22826.9 with set bonus
2 points in Cruelty is 748.34 TPS/2 = 374.17 TPS/Talent point
6 points in WA/DW is 2749.84 TPS/6 = 458.31 TPS/Talent point

Set bonus increases Cruetly by 30tps/talent point and WA/DW by basically nothing, but it's already so far ahead that it makes it a little closer, but still, on a per point basis, DW/WA > Cruetly for TPS purposes.

***

If you don't like the numbers, check the spreadsheet in the thread I linked. Wartotem can answer an specific question you ahve about it there or points you disagree.

Disruptor
02-26-2011, 03:05 PM
Wartotems rotation tab is not accurate. It is not that easy to calculate the rotation of a tank. Any missed / dodge / parried beside SS and Rev will decrease the value of WA. A priority system would be much more accurate like SimCraft has. Or you have to calculate the average usage of a style per time period which includes some amount of math.

These results are in favor of WA and DW because skipping Dem Shout and parry / dodges / miss from calculations increase the value of WA and DW.

Incite 2/3, Cruelty 2/2, HR 2/2, WA 0/3, DW 0/3

with 5% crit --> 37586 TPS
without --> 35590 TPS

Incite 1/3, Cruelty 0/2 , HR 0/2, WA 3/3, DW 2/3

with 5% crit --> 34942 TPS
without --> 32682 TPS

Incite 1/3, Cruelty 0/2 , HR 0/2, WA 3/3, DW 3/3

with 5% crit --> 35671


Incite 3/3, Cruelty 0/2, HR 0/2, WA 3/3, DW 3/3 ( skipping revenge and imp revenge )

with 5% crit --> 37222 TPS

Even this build does not outtps HR+Cruelty and you are missing 1 point for utility and revenge is crucial for cleaving. As all of those calculations are in favor of WA/DW I cant see how WA/DW should be better than HR/Cruelty. This supports my assumptions. SS scales way better with ap than DW/WA does. I think even huge upgrades of tank weapons wont make DW attractive and crit wont increase due to gear so munching is no option either.

Loganisis
02-26-2011, 03:57 PM
I'm seeing some communication issues here.

You're comparing 2/2 HR and 2/2 Cruelty to 3/3 DW and 3/3 WA.

I'm not and never would remove HR, even in a DW build. The other talents I'm missing out dont' excite me.

Gag order? Useful in heroics, haven't found myself missing it after using it all of Wrath in raids though.
Thunderstruck? Another nice Heroic tool.
Safeguard? Might be nice, but haven't found it lacking. The fights we're having trouble on are the ones where there's dual tanking going on, not tank swapping.
Impending Victory? Maybe fight specific if it really came to that.

So regardless of any choices in the Arms or Fury tree, unless a specific fight requried respec-ing for a specific mechanic, why would any tank skimp on HR?

The choice, as Feral was hinting at, is Utility versus threat. WA+DW > Cruelty + whatever else in Fury/Arms in threat. The difference would be 4 points for more utility-centric builds if you wanted that.

****

As for Wartotem's spreadsheet - he'll have to respond specificlly, but I think the rotation page takes into account the priority system already. And if you want to talk about the effect of Dodges/parries/misses - You use Devestate far more than SS because of the shorter CD. This means if your threat is more heavily concentrated in SS, a miss/dodge/parry will be more impactful than a single missed/dodged/parried devastate, so a bad string for SS can be far more problematic.

Re-run your similations with the ONLY difference being 2/2 cruelty versus 3/3 DW. See if it supports your position.

If you want to argue utility - well, as Feral said, that's a different discussion.

Kojiyama
02-26-2011, 04:24 PM
I don't understand the avoidance argument. Misses affect everything and no Warrior ability has a higher chance to hit than other Warrior abilities. So it's really not anything that changes the relative value of things. Shield Slams can miss, Devastates missing reduce the number of Shield Slams, etc.

I've run the numbers many times with my calculations in Rawr and Deep Wounds has always come miles ahead of Cruelty in threat.

Also, why are you removing Heavy Repercussions in all your Deep Wounds builds other than to make the DPS of Deep Wounds look artificially lower than it is? The two talents don't compete at all, and Heavy Repercussions is one of the best TPS talents we have. Any threat-oriented Deep Wounds build will have it.

Disruptor
02-26-2011, 05:35 PM
Pre-patch WA and Incite were > all. HR was not necessary.

Gag Order is useful for Al'akir HC and Nef HC
Safeguard is a must-have imo, especially in 10s. There are at least like 3 situations at every encounter where you can use it.
IV is completely useless
Thunderstruck is kinda necessary in 2 ways. Rend is always a TPS win. You can reapply rend with TC so you do not lose a GCD without damage. TC is refreshed and after 3 TCs you can use SW. I'm pretty positive that this is a great TPS win maybe more worth than HR.

Incite 1/3, Cruelty 0/2, HR 2/2, WA 3/3, DW 3/3 ( skipping revenge and imp revenge )

with 5% crit --> 38016 TPS

This is not that much of an increase.


And it is a huge difference if you calculate misses etc or not. SS will always be on higher priority than Devastate or anything else no matter what spec you have. So if you lose GCDs by Dem shout,TC, missed TC(-->Rend),missed shouts or anything else, it will cripple your Dev amount over a 60 seconds cycle but it wont hurt your SS at all. And overall it does not matter if you have 10% miss from a TPS pov, it may hurt more if 1 SS misses but in a spreadsheet the value loss of both will be the same as you use Dev way more often. Both values will be crippled by 10%.
The only argument is that less devastate will proc less SS. But this increaseas the value of Rev and another reason why I prefer a heavy Rev/SS build. Rev cannot be dodged or parried and procs SS.

And I am pretty sure if you do keep this in mind in a priority system, HR+Incite will be ahead of DW+WA. And to answer your question, I will never skip Safeguard. You could skip Rev and skill HR but this cripples your cleave. Thunderstruck is in my eyes too powerful to skip. I would consider dropping Blood craze to get points for DW but as long as my TPS is not that much of a problem, utility and survivability > TPS.

And do not forget the most important thing why I highly prefer a HR/Cruelty heave build. SS scales better than any other skill. And DW proc ammount will always stay the same and only scales with avg weapon damage.

Loganisis
02-26-2011, 05:46 PM
Rend is applied through Blood and Thunder, not Thunderstruck. Thunderstuck's DPS increase is minimal. TC hits for so low and SW is on a very long CD. It's pointless for raidboss.

If a talent is necessary, it can be spec'd into on a fight-specific basis. If it's really necessary.

No one is arguing Dev is anywhere near SS, but SS is affected by hit/dodge/miss the same as Dev and if you want to look at it from an early threat persepctive when threat matters, putting all your eggs in the SS basket and having SS Miss will be far more deterimental than a DW build.

HR + Incite being ahead of WA + DW isn't the point that's been discussed. It's DW > Cruelty from a pure TPS perspective.

****

How does skipping Imp Rev cripple Cleave? Imp Rev doesn't affect cleave at all and on a boss-fight you don't need the second target or cleave unless you're on add duty and then DW would be better anyway (well, at least once there's more than 3 or 4)?

I Bloodcraze is nice to have, but it's a 10% chance per swing on a raid boss to be healed for a max of 3% (6k at 200k HP) of your pool over 5 seconds. I'm not sure that's really all that great (though I love it for solo-ing old content).


And Utility vs TPS was also never the question - as Feral pointed out - that's a completely different discussion than the very simple point that DW > Cruelty for TPS.

truculent
02-26-2011, 06:05 PM
Hey OP,

Short and simple - If your looking for a max single target build, look at the second spec you linked.... drop blood and thunder and apply rend on your own. Add those 2 points into cruelty. Thats your max single target build. If your looking for a more situational build, I would ask you to please list what you want to accomplish. enough said, end thread.

Disruptor
02-26-2011, 06:17 PM
Sorry, but i think 95% of tanks have bnt skilled. And tc doesnt hit low if you compare it with a GCD you do no damage. I'd use SW only with Thunderstruckx3 up. In a case of SS cd <1,5 sec you can still use CB as filler.

Your point is pretty unimportant because in the first few seconds of the boss you have no vengeance at all. So it does not matter if your 5k devastate misses or your 8k SS. I'd recommend to start tanking with Reckless+SB+ any dps improving CDs. This usually gives you a good gap. And as I said the only risky time is the beginning and most DPS classes have mechanics to stack things up before they unleash high DPS or ask for salvation. ( the only specs I have problems with is a Ret ( ours is not anywhere worldtop ) and I havent met one tank who could outtps my arms )

To use DW you need to take WA and sacrifice anything else. If you seriously priorize TPS higher than utility or survivability then go ahead. DW 3/3 might be slightly better than Cruelty. But this will change with the next Tiers of gear because DW proc dmg improvements will never be that high as SS dps improvements.

I'm sorry for the term cleave, i am not referring to the skill just to the ability to put damage on 2 targets. As soon as there are 2+ mobs, revenge is the highest priority after spreading rend and stacking up thunderstruck.

I just like Bloodcraze because it fits my playstyle and the intention of Warriors mechanics. Warriors get the less spikest ( sry if my english sucks ) damage of all specs and by the next tiers Warriors mitigation will be the best ingame by a huge gap. So Hots fit nicely and we should get the least overhealing.


As i said I am not even sure about that. Because you have to compare DW 3/3 with 2/2 cruelty and x+1/3 incite as example. And maybe right now DW is slightly better but I am pretty sure on longterm cruelty is better.

And the author of this post asked for cruelty vs incite. In this case Incite will win with DW specced. Cruelty might win with HR specced.

truculent
02-26-2011, 06:56 PM
Ok, Ive tried to ignore your posts, but now you ruffled my feathers.... so I have a thing or two to say.

First of all.. you need to work on your communication skills. In every post ( In this thread) that Ive tried to read, your thoughts are moving in five different directions... arguably in preposterous fashion. Its making me angry.

Back to the matter at hand... Yes, 95% of tanks have B&T in "a" build. As do I.... In my utility build, not my max tps single target build.

second, your suggesting to someone asking about a max single target tps build, to use Wrecklessness??? did you not read the part of the tool tip that explains the 20% increased damage?

you then go back to discussing utility vs tps when that clearly isnt what the op asked, and talk about spreading rend ????

Frankly I dont understand what your trying to prove.You have gone off topic about a dozen times in this thread. Your making all these radical claims with no evidence supporting them, and arguing with people that have reputations going back years across several sites. If you can disprove EVERYTHING that has been said in this forum, by all means do so. But you will have your work cut out for you, considering most of the theories here are backed by hundreds of hours worth of math. Until then.. s**u

Kojiyama
02-26-2011, 07:30 PM
Again, your points about miss rates are really not proving what you think it does.

Missed Thunder Claps lead to fewer Devastates, true. However, fewer Devastates means less SnB procs which means less Shield Slams. Likewise, Shield Slam has the same chance to miss as any of those.

Blood and Thunder is a very low gain in single-target environments.

The bottom line is that Cruelty is good, but not as good as Deep Wounds. That's simply the math of it. For an optimal single-target build you have both, as Cruelty increases the value of Deep Wounds via higher crit rates. (Likewise, Incite dramatically increases the value of Deep Wounds.)

People may not want to go for max single-target TPS builds for many reasons...but if you have the opportunity to get Deep Wounds in your build and instead choose other TPS talents, you are simply being non-optimal.

Hrolfr
02-26-2011, 09:06 PM
Sorry, but i think 95% of tanks have bnt skilled.

That's because it's useful doing heroic dungeons in zerg mode. I doubt if there are a lot of raid situations where it would be needed. Perhaps Maloriak heroic or Conclave. But so far I've found that my standard raiding spec does not have thunderstruck or blood and thunder, I specifically respec to them when I need them. Which is rare.


And tc doesnt hit low if you compare it with a GCD you do no damage. I'd use SW only with Thunderstruckx3 up. In a case of SS cd <1,5 sec you can still use CB as filler

If you're that concerned about TPS, you should have checked another thread here. I forgot who made it, or solved it, but stacking the buff to 3 and THEN use shockwave all the time is a TPS loss instead of using shockwave whenever you can, even with 2 stacks.



Your point is pretty unimportant because in the first few seconds of the boss you have no vengeance at all. So it does not matter if your 5k devastate misses or your 8k SS.

Eh? How? Of course it matters. Letīs assume thereīs a chance it wonīt miss. You want the 8k to hit, not the 5k.



To use DW you need to take WA and sacrifice anything else. If you seriously priorize TPS higher than utility or survivability then go ahead. DW 3/3 might be slightly better than Cruelty. But this will change with the next Tiers of gear because DW proc dmg improvements will never be that high as SS dps improvements.

Sacrifice what? Blood & Thunder, Thunderstruck, Improved Revenge or a combination of those? That's not a sacrifice, it's common sense. And about the tiers; did you take into account that each new tier will also mean weapons with a higher base damage? And Deep Wounds is, as has been noted, much better than Cruelty.


I'm sorry for the term cleave, i am not referring to the skill just to the ability to put damage on 2 targets. As soon as there are 2+ mobs, revenge is the highest priority after spreading rend and stacking up thunderstruck.

Then spec in those things when you actually need to.


I just like Bloodcraze because it fits my playstyle and the intention of Warriors mechanics. Warriors get the less spikest ( sry if my english sucks ) damage of all specs and by the next tiers Warriors mitigation will be the best ingame by a huge gap. So Hots fit nicely and we should get the least overhealing.

How does a passive ability like Blood Craze fit into a playstyle? Which intention of warrior mechanics? If anything, trying to depend on Blood Craze makes things spikier, because you have no control when Blood Craze actually procs. Again, read these forums. The extra dps from Deep Wounds taken from Blood Craze result in less damage taken than Blood Craze could heal.



As i said I am not even sure about that. Because you have to compare DW 3/3 with 2/2 cruelty and x+1/3 incite as example. And maybe right now DW is slightly better but I am pretty sure on longterm cruelty is better.

No.


And the author of this post asked for cruelty vs incite. In this case Incite will win with DW specced. Cruelty might win with HR specced.

Did you take into account devastate will have a high crit rate anyway?

Anyway, to finish with my personal experience tanking raids, some heroics (not a top guild, we're just managing to get a heroic kill after Halfus and Chimaeron); Blood and Thunder miss the utility in specific raid encounters. Unless you will be an assigned add tank, you're much better off skipping these talents for deep wounds and cruelty.

Disruptor
02-26-2011, 11:15 PM
@Koji

There aren't only fewer Devastates caused by missed Thunder Claps. Without BnT rend can also be dodged / parried. Dem Shout can miss. In a 60 sec cycle you need at least 2 shouts, 2-3 TCs and 4-5 Rends to keep anything up plus any dodges/parrys/misses. Last Stand and Enraged Regeneration eat a GCD. Anything that lowers your Boss-fighttime or uses a GCD what is not "mentioned" in the rotation will decrease the value of DW/WA more than Cruelty/HR.

SnB influence is pretty low. Let's assume you do this 10 times in a 60 sec cycle:

SS Dev Dev x

where x is any ability that uses a GCD. When SnB procs on the first Dev you save 3 seconds on the next SS, a proc on the second Dev will save 1.5 seconds. I take my hit and exp values as examples. I am at 1.25% hit and 2% expertise. This leaves 6,75% miss, 4,5% dodge and 12% parry. Your chance that a Dev will proc SnB, which is also the chance that the first Dev procs SnB.

(1-(0,0675+0,045+0,12))*0,3 ~ 23% chance

Chance that the second Dev procs SnB

0,7675*0,7*0,7675*0,3 + 0,2325*0,7675*0,3 ~ 17,72% chance

So out of 10 SS repeats you have ((0,23*3,0+0,1772*1,5)*10) seconds saved. You gain around 9,5 seconds which are 1,5 SS. Not a huge improvement in SS count. The chance that this SS is in SB is really low. Which gives your Devastates no bigger importance. I think not every Tank tries to squeeze any necessary GCDs as TC, Dem shout ( Enraged Regen ) into the x GCD plus there are basically 1/3 of Devastates that does not count at all because SS CD < 1.5 seconds.


And as I already said. The premade stats on the spreadsheet are in Blue 333/346 gear. I'm a MT in 10-man-content and although the bosses drop only 2 items my gear is pretty decent. I had an increase of 60-70% strength to that in the spreadsheet. That is why Deep Wounds is not as nearly as good as in your case. The ap scaling will always increase the value by x times more than compared to the increase in DW with 1 upgraded weapon tier. I already used a 372-weapon.

And srsly maybe it is just me but I like the idea of BnT. I already figured out very incredible facts about BnT for Arms DPS. I like the idea to make 3 steps at a time. You need to reapply TC anyways. With BnT you can reapply rend as well with a damaging GCD which is not parried or dodged. And you build up stacks for a strong SW. Sounds great stuff to me but I could do some number on that as well.

( And for those people hating my posts. Idc tbh. I know in most cases I do not follow the main-stream idea. But no offense. As long as you can't counter my assumptions with numbers or logic reasoning I will ignore you. My tank logs and DPS logs are far ahead compared to any Warriors of any public logs on WoL. )

@Hrolfr
I will figure it out with SW. I somehow cant believe that using SW is an increase in TPS instead of using it with 3 stacks. Whoever calculated this has way other priorites than me and left things out maybe. You are fairly GCD capped with usefull styles. But I will check that.

Without having vengeance up the gain of threat of SS over Dev doesn't bother you at all.. If you are at 40k TPS later on you do not care at all if your first SS missed and you lost 3k threat or your Dev missed.

Imp Rev and Thunderstruck are useful single target and necessary. I will cover Thunderstruck with numbers but Rev is almost so obvious. When not beeing on a heavy WA/DW playstyle skipping Rev is a TPS loss + Rev cannot be dodged/parried which favors SS heavy playstyle and costs less rage than any other style.

The Blood Craze phenomen is easy to explain. We have a decent geared DK tank and my healers always ask me to tank in any phys damage heavy fights. DKs are very useful in fights with magical damage. But a pain in the ass to heal when tanking hard hitting bosses. I'm almost at the mastery soft cap and I hope to hit mastery hard cap with T12 or T13 with SB up. Blood Craze OH is way lower % than DS OH.

And yes I have proven many times to be Cruelty the longterm solution to stick with. If you do not believe it do this: take 2 specs as I did and take 2 gear sets. Example a full 359 tank set and its heroic version. The increase of strength on all that heroic gear will easily outweigh the gain on DW by going up 1 weapon tier.

What means high crit? Devastate has a fix crit value and this will never change under any circumstances.

Tengenstein
02-27-2011, 02:44 AM
you've made a few misconceptions;

Deep wounds weapon damage is your weapon damage buffed by your AP, not the base weapon damage, I.e its the number under melee on your character sheet, NOT the number on the weapons tooltip. So it does scale with vengeance.


DW damage per crit = (Weapon DPS + AP/14) * Weapon Speed * (0.16*pts in DW)


Revenge can be dodged and parried. You've either misread the tooltip, or confused it with Overpower.

Dev has high Crit becuase in addition it gaining crit from the same sources as everything else, it aslo gains 15% crit from the Sword and Board Talent, thus relative to almost everything else it's gonna have a higher crit rate.

thunderstruck adds 10% damage per stack to SW, generally you will not be using TC on CD for single target, at best you'd use it every 12 seconds to refresh a rend meaning you would use SW every 36seconds, as oppse to every 20 so for a 30% increase you're using it 45% less. this is of course assuming you ignore the 4gcd SnB proc cycle and prioitise using TC and SW on CD.

Airowird
02-27-2011, 03:01 AM
Wartotems rotation tab is not accurate. It is not that easy to calculate the rotation of a tank. Any missed / dodge / parried beside SS and Rev will decrease the value of WA. A priority system would be much more accurate like SimCraft has. Or you have to calculate the average usage of a style per time period which includes some amount of math.I'm only going to reply to this specific part and let the rest of the discussion go it's own course.

The rotation tab is exactly as accurate as you make it.
Sure it's not easy to figure out an exact rotation, that is why I ask the user to fill in the exact numbers. It also allows you to adjust for non-static fights or special situations.

Misses, dodges and parries are already included in all the average damage/threat numbers.
The only change you need to figure out is how much more SS you got from SnB.
Heck, you don't even need to calculate the "average usage of a style per time", just go to a dummy and start tanking it! Or use the numbers from a sim or a log of a fight you already did to put them in there.

To come back to topic:
If you have Deep Wounds, 2/3 Incite will provide more damage/threat than 2/2 Cruelty, atleast it does for me. But hey, that's why I built a spreadsheet for you guys!

Kojiyama
02-27-2011, 05:05 AM
Disruptor, there is really no point continuing to debate with you when you continue to attempt to turn every number into support for your argument, regardless of what it actually shows.

Here's my advice if you don't trust what anyone is saying: look at your logs. Take your Shield Slam numbers. Look at your Critical damage from Shield Slam. Multiply that by 10%. Compare that to your Deep Wound numbers. Which is bigger?

Picking a very high DPS Warrior log, let's do some research for you:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/lbyu493x5tvmfgxm/details/16/?s=6829&e=7199

Deep Wounds: 235k
Shield Slam Crits: 225k
10% of Shield Slam Crits: 22.51k

It's worth noting that as WarTotem mentioned, Heroic Strike's total damage is greater than Shield Slam's, which means that point-for-point, Incite is a lot better than Cruelty in that log as well.

If you'd like to show logs otherwise, go ahead. :)

Disruptor
02-27-2011, 09:04 AM
you've made a few misconceptions;

Deep wounds weapon damage is your weapon damage buffed by your AP, not the base weapon damage, I.e its the number under melee on your character sheet, NOT the number on the weapons tooltip. So it does scale with vengeance.


DW damage per crit = (Weapon DPS + AP/14) * Weapon Speed * (0.16*pts in DW)


Revenge can be dodged and parried. You've either misread the tooltip, or confused it with Overpower.

thunderstruck adds 10% damage per stack to SW, generally you will not be using TC on CD for single target, at best you'd use it every 12 seconds to refresh a rend meaning you would use SW every 36seconds, as oppse to every 20 so for a 30% increase you're using it 45% less. this is of course assuming you ignore the 4gcd SnB proc cycle and prioitise using TC and SW on CD.



Thanks for this. I'll check the damage on SW. You need to refresh every 15 seconds rend because the last rend-tick is added to a reapplication.

@Koji
It is strange that the spreadsheet gives me way other numbers. I'll get some logs to back this up.

6:10 fight, 50 SS ...

Tengenstein
02-27-2011, 10:00 AM
ok so you'll be using SW ever 45 seconds as opposed to ever 20..... that more than a 50% decrease in frequence for a 30% increase in dmg. this strategy means you're actually using two talent points to decrease SW damage by 35%, in regards to SW you'd be better off skipping thunderstruck completely. in regards to rotation in geneneral; its not worth delaying SW to full stack Thunderstruck.

Disruptor
02-27-2011, 12:07 PM
I do not have time to check this right now but let us assume you are right. Do not forget the other benefits of Thunderstruck/BnT. If SW is a TPS win in any case every SW will do 10% more damage. Your benefits are:

-1 (+ dodges/parry) GCDs more because TC is reapplied with Rend
-Rend does 6% more damage
-TC is used for reapplication so you do 1 TC more damage every 15 seconds
-TC does 6% more damage
-every SW has 10% increased damage instead of every second

BnT increases the value of Thunderstruck.

However you can put those 2 points into Incite. But another important thing nobody discussed or mentioned yet is rage management. With Shield Spec 3/3 I am sometimes missing rage to use HS every 3 seconds.

( That is another side effect of a heavy WA/DW/Dev playstyle. It costs way more rage than a normal rotation with Rev etc... )

Bodasafa
02-27-2011, 12:38 PM
One thing I don't see mentioned in the Thunderstruck debate is its effect on rend. It increases its damage by 6% (ignoring the other increases since were talking single target threat/dps).

Tengenstein
02-27-2011, 03:13 PM
@ Bodasofa
Thats probably because its quite easy to quantify. Looking the log Koji posted his freind has Thunderstruck, so he's gaining 6% damage to rend and TC. Specifiaclly he gained 9.6k rend damage, and 741 TC damage, not alot for 2 talent points on a single target fight, but then again i don't think he was having to keep the debuff up.

@ Disruptor

i did not say every second SW has 10% damage, i was countering your earlier point about saying you should wait to fullstack Thunderstruck before using SW. Like Koji, and for the same reasons I really see no point continuing to discuss things with you.

Disruptor
02-27-2011, 03:54 PM
When I buff style x with talents and I take a log with priority x>y how can you judge the impact of talents on y?

Hrolfr
02-27-2011, 04:45 PM
When I buff style x with talents and I take a log with priority x>y how can you judge the impact of talents on y?

Then show some logs with talents that improve y and a priority y>x.

Ghladum
02-27-2011, 07:20 PM
You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. You've shown him the logs, shown him the math, and his responses are still wrong. Let's just drop it.

Loganisis
02-27-2011, 08:27 PM
You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. You've shown him the logs, shown him the math, and his responses are still wrong. Let's just drop it.

^

This. Thread should probably be closed.

Disruptor
02-28-2011, 09:24 AM
"
Version A ( 9 talent points )
Incite 1/3, Cruelty 0/2, HR 2/2, WA 3/3, DW 3/3 ( skipping revenge and imp revenge )

with 5% crit --> 38016 TPS

Version B ( easy reachable 6 talent points )
Incite 2/3, Cruelty 2/2, HR 2/2, WA 0/3, DW 0/3

with 5% crit --> 37586 TPS"

This is my concern. I do not call 400 TPS a huge advantage and clear gap. But feel free to ignore this. You may close this post.

Katzazi
02-28-2011, 11:17 AM
If you go for DW you go for a high TPS spec and not for a utility spec. So you would have points in Incite. After taking alle core points in the prot tree you have 10 free points to spend. At this point your tree would look at least like this: http://wowtal.com/#k=f-SDumi.aei.warrior.

Even at this point you will have at least 1 point in Incite if you either skip gag order (as said before - TPS specs are not utility focussed and Gag Order is a very situational talent at content where TPS is really important - meaning raids), Thunderstruck or T&B or improved Rend. Chances are high that at least 2 of those talents would be skipped (even if I only show one skiped so it's more like a worse case szenario).

You need only 8 points for getting full DW. So you have 2 free points after that. To assume that those 2 points would be used for more utility is just not realitstic. (If you think about using them on Blood Craze - it's not worth it as was shown in another post. Finishing the encounter earlier helps your healers much more than this little and uncontroled heals.)


But if you want to build a true single target DPS spec, you would pass on another utility or AoE talent to max Incite even with the 31 points you need to put into prot. If you do that, you can spend those points easily on Cruelty. Both talents are much better than all this other talents for the focus of the spec (single target TPS) so there is no point in neglecting them.

truculent
02-28-2011, 11:29 AM
"
Version A ( 9 talent points )
Incite 1/3, Cruelty 0/2, HR 2/2, WA 3/3, DW 3/3 ( skipping revenge and imp revenge )

with 5% crit --> 38016 TPS

Version B ( easy reachable 6 talent points )
Incite 2/3, Cruelty 2/2, HR 2/2, WA 0/3, DW 0/3

with 5% crit --> 37586 TPS"

This is my concern. I do not call 400 TPS a huge advantage and clear gap. But feel free to ignore this. You may close this post.

as a dozen people have said before.... prove it. show a log.

marklar
02-28-2011, 02:12 PM
^

This. Thread should probably be closed.

it really bugs me every time i see something like this. the whole point of forums is for discussion; if you don't like someone's post, then ignore it. if nobody ever challenged the norm, then we'd never get anywhere.

re: Disruptor - yes, he does comes across as a crazy person, but i think that's partly the language barrier. some of the ideas he's posted in the arms threads have actually made me rethink things a little. although, i would still like to see logs. logs > theorycrafting, imo.

Loganisis
02-28-2011, 02:19 PM
it really bugs me every time i see something like this. the whole point of forums is for discussion; if you don't like someone's post, then ignore it. if nobody ever challenged the norm, then we'd never get anywhere.

First, your post is contradictory. You can't have a discussion where you ignore the other side.

Second, there's a point at which it's not a discussion anymore. This thread has reached that point. Disruptor ignores the math provided, tweaks things to minimize the disparity in an unrealistic way, and then just posts assertions as fact.

It hasn't been a discussion in a long time.

If the point is maximzing threat DW > Cruetly. It's math. It's proven. It was challenged, the math was presented and the challenge was shown to be wrong.

If the point is cruelty + points elsewhere > DW, that's a discussion for a different thread.

This thread has lived out it's life and is now just noise.

Disruptor
02-28-2011, 02:31 PM
Thb I lost the motivation to post something. You are proving things with the spreadsheet, I do as well and you ask me to post logs. wtf you want from me ? This makes no sense at all. Idc if you can't imagine that DW is aplied ALMOST EVERYTIME no matter how hard you fail the rotation and you cannot use those logs . Use your brain before you critize my assumptions. You may critize my english because it sucks, I am aware of that. But you do not have to read my posts.

You compare a T1 talent with a T2. Both have different influences and benefits- What is the point ?

Loganisis
02-28-2011, 02:48 PM
Thb I lost the motivation to post something. You are proving things with the spreadsheet, I do as well and you ask me to post logs. wtf you want from me ? This makes no sense at all. Idc if you can't imagine that DW is aplied ALMOST EVERYTIME no matter how hard you fail the rotation and you cannot use those logs . Use your brain before you critize my assumptions. You may critize my english because it sucks, I am aware of that. But you do not have to read them.

You have yet to run an apples to apples comparison where the only difference is DW versus Cruelty. You keep monkeying around in the background to try to minimize the difference that is clear and proven.

On a per talent point basis, talent points in DW are 33% more effective for TPS than Cruelty. With DW you're giving up 6 points you might be able to place in other places, such as IV, Safeguard, Gag Order, or Blood Craze, but they are not required tradeoffs. And if you want to have that discussion, that it's better for the raid to have cruelty + XYZ instead of DW, that's a perfectly good arguement to make (you may even find most of the posters agree that more utlitly is better than more threat) but that's not the point here.

The point is comparing DW versus Cruelty. DW is better. Period. Your examples are biased because you have chosen to vary other factors than just the values you are comparing. This type of bias immediately invalidates your presentation. You can make anything look like anything if you hold X to a different standard than Y.

What I would suggest is if you really want to continue this point, you start a thread asking if others think 2/2 Cruelty + 4 talent points elsewhere is more valuable than 3/3 deep wounds and presenting why you think it is so.

truculent
02-28-2011, 02:53 PM
Thb wtf you want from me ?

To post conclusive evidence that disproves the accuracy of the spreadsheets. Ideas dont prove anything. If you want to claim that WA and DW offer marginal difference, then post a dam log of a prot warrior in the suggested spec with dps relative to your claim. what is so hard about that? Its not a language barrier. you simply cant provide a log. because such a log dosnt exist. It never will.

Disruptor
02-28-2011, 03:03 PM
Well okay, I can't say anything against that. A 3 point T2 talent is better than a 2 point T1 talent. No offense but because of results like this there are still people gemming stamina as prot warrior or skilled HR before the patch. But srsly I do not have to care about other peoples output.

@ truculent
I already told you why the rotation tab is not optimal for calculating TPS. Wartotem commented this.

Do I look like I can ask 10 healers to heal me against a Boss to get logs? We are doing nef HC and I am playing Arms. How you want me to provide a Log ?

Loganisis
02-28-2011, 03:12 PM
Well okay, I can't say anything against that. A 3 point T2 talent is better than a 2 point T1 talent. No offense but because of results like this there are still people gemming stamina as prot warrior or skilled HR before the patch. But srsly I do not have to care about other peoples output.

To clear up a small bit in here. Each of the 6 talent points spent to get to 3/3 DW returns more threat, per point, than the 2 talent points needed for cruelty.

No, you don't need to care about other people's output. But if you're going to say the theorycrafting done by Koji (RAWR) and Wartotem (spreadsheet) is wrong, you will need to prove it.

No one's stopping you from skipping DW and going for a utility build.

As for gemming stamina because people don't agree with your assertions because the math shows otherwise... it's not connected at all. Gemming is a completely different topic than TPS per talent point. All it does is muddy the water.

I really do think you want to have a much more holistic discussion ALL the talent points and the proper distribution for maximzing utilty to the raid. And if so, I think you should start just a thread.

truculent
02-28-2011, 03:18 PM
Well okay, I can't say anything against that. A 3 point T2 talent is better than a 2 point T1 talent. .

Yes, that is the question at hand. which is the latter of the two with respects to max tps/dps.

No one is asking about utility, play style or the color of a baboons ass. IF you want to discuss those matters. you can start a new thread. But first, lets focus on one thing at a time.

can you offer a log showing a prot warrior in the spec you suggest out dpsing/tpsing a prot warrior in the signature max tps spec suggested here? If so great. if not, you have no leg to stand on.

Disruptor
02-28-2011, 03:20 PM
I won't start that discussion again.

I never lost any word about Koji's spreadsheet. I even used Wartotems spreadsheet to support my assumptions. I got a 400 tps gap which is cleary in favor of DW/WA because the rotation tab is not accurate. This is my last word for that. I know what I will spec. Do whatever you want to do.

And for your problem with the log. I know my english sucks but I told you that DW is applied always NO MATTER how hard your rotation sucks. You cannot prove Crueltys value if you have no log with the maximum number of SS.

Katzazi
02-28-2011, 03:27 PM
If I would go for max tps I would probably drop Imp Revenge and get all of Incite, Cruelty, WA and DW. They are contributing to each other, anyway. However in most cases I would prefere utility over them. Actually I'm speced 2/6/33 at the moment.

The thing is: If you want to considere multiple talents for the best tps combo, its probably best to not chose between those talents, but to just take them all. That's independent of spreadsheet-rotations and everything else.

You just have to decide PRIOR to the individual talent choice, what should be the main focus of your spec: Utility, single target tps or multi mob stuff. You can even improve a second one of them quite good, but you cannot get all of them. As soon as you set your focus of the spec, your question will evaporate, because it's not a choice you have to make:

- If you go for max utility you will go t2 fury, so you will take Cruelty and not DW. However you can chose to increase your AoE or your single target stuff a little bit more, with your other points.

- If you go for max single target TPS you will have all of Incite, Cruelty and DW, anyway. You will not have all possible utilities, but you can decide if you want to have more utility in the tank tree or more AoE-stuff.

- If you go for max AoE stuff, you can decide which of the two above routes you will follow after that. You have to pass on either some utility or some single target threat. But the decision will be more or less the same as in the above cases. Either you want to max Utility than you will go for Stuff in Prot and Fury, or you will max Single target stuff. There is the only option where you have to decide between 1/3 DW + 2 Cruelty or 3 DW + 0 Cruelty. (Well ok or instead of Curelty Incite.) But that's the only things that you have to compare. Not all the other stuff you are bringing up.


Btw: You can also make a log in 5mans. Drop some gear if you are concerned about too low Vengeance stacks.

MellvarTank
02-28-2011, 03:30 PM
....how is the rotation tab not accurate? If it is not your rotation it doesn't mean it isn't accurate. It simply tabulates the numbers and tells you what the most optimal rotation is, does it not?


And for your problem with the log. I know my english sucks but I told you that DW is applied always NO MATTER how hard your rotation sucks. You cannot prove Crueltys value if you have no log with the maximum number of SS.

This is basically saying that your argument is moot. Essentially you just said "Humans cannot play well enough to make Cruelty better than deep wounds" which is exactly what these guys have been saying. You just agreed.

/thread

truculent
02-28-2011, 03:33 PM
If I would go for max tps I would probably drop Imp Revenge and get all of Incite, Cruelty, WA and DW. However in most cases I would prefere utility over them. Actually I'm speced 2/6/33 at the moment.

I run with 2 prot specs, so I have a tps spec and a utility spec. What upsets me is that is all off topic. The OP made no reference to utility vs tps at all. it was strictly a tps question.

Disruptor
02-28-2011, 03:46 PM
....how is the rotation tab not accurate? If it is not your rotation it doesn't mean it isn't accurate. It simply tabulates the numbers and tells you what the most optimal rotation is, does it not?

You need a model like Simcraft with a priority system or a sheet with the average decimal outcome of every ability used over an unlimited timeframe to be stochastic correct . Anything else is just RNG.

If you want a full TPS spec stick to Katzazi's post ( with HR ). Imo it is not efficient to invest few skill points more to get a 1% better outcome if at all. This is based on Wartotem's Sheet. I did not test Koji's spreadsheet. I think there are still many people missing the point. As TPS is now equal to DPS you have to treat it like that. Gear will change scalings, rotation will change scalings and raid evironment is an influence. There is nobody on earth asking in a sub-tree if it is a DPS win to take a T2 talent without asking for the value of its T1 talents. DW/WA/Incite loses more value without enough rage incoming, without exp cap and hit cap and a 100% time on the boss.
The scaling factor is another thing I have to investigate. It is my opinion but I wont sacrifice my most important utility and survivability talents and cleave abilities to get hardly any more TPS. Plus there are still facts not beeing 100%ly researched.

Loganisis
02-28-2011, 03:54 PM
I wont sacrifice my most important utility and survivability talents and cleave abilities to get hardly any more TPS.

Which is fine. But that is NOT what the thread was about. The thread was about maxing TPS. Start a new thread to discuss the above. This thread, about maxing TPS, means if you're choosing, you choose DW over Cruelty. Period. It's been proven. You even admit to it.

What what exactly needs to be researched? Scalling in upcoming patches that isn't relevent to the game now?

Katzazi
02-28-2011, 04:05 PM
I run with 2 prot specs, so I have a tps spec and a utility spec. What upsets me is that is all off topic. The OP made no reference to utility vs tps at all. it was strictly a tps question.

Well having only one tank spec can bring even more "utility" to your raid, than running 2 prot specs. Just because there are single tank encounters. What's best for you / your raid depends on your setup. (I'm running mostly with paladins who bring a heal spec wich is not needed as often.)

I don't mind the refocus of the discussion. The question of the OP was probably answerd on the first page of this discussion. But another question / discussion came up due to it. So why not discuss that? Sure the thread-title is somewhat miss-leading. But there are worse threads than this going on with nobody complaining. And everyone new to the thread will probably start to read at the first page, anyway.