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Nehama
02-18-2011, 11:06 AM
Hello,

I know the basic answer used to be stacking mastery for warriors up to the point of unhittable with SB. I also know that for HCs, for some reason, some high end guilds started gemming and gearing [trinket wise] for stamina.

What I'm wondering, is why do they start doing that at a certain point? And what point is that, if anyone knows? Or maybe that's just druid tanks that started doing that?

Lots of questions on my mind, but I'd love some help if anyone knows. :)

Katzazi
02-18-2011, 11:26 AM
I don't know enough about druids. But for warriors and paladins it's not Avoidance vs. EH. Because block is NOT avoidance. It's mitigation. And if all than mitigation is part of EH not avoidance. So stacking mastery is not the same as going for avoidance and ignoring EH.

There are people advocating to stack parry and dodge over mastery, because it prevents more dmg. That's what you do to max your avoidance and follow the avoidance rules.

The question between stamina and mastery is something else.

When you start raiding, you have comparable high amounts of HP but only medicore coverage of the dmg table with block (and avoidance stats to fill them up). At the same time healers struggle with their mana. So block will do both: prevent dmg and increase your chance to mitigate a lot of the incoming dmg. Stacking stamina also increases EH, but does not help your healers (and even if you try it will not make such a big difference anyway, since boss hits are quite small compared to your life as is the HP you can add via stacking. You already have such a hugh pool of health on your gear).

When you start HCs, boss hits will be bigger. So you cannot take as much as you could before. Your HP has not increases as much at the same time, but healers have a much bigger mana-pool. They can afforde those big heals more often. You will have better gear. So you will have a much better coverage of the dmg tabel with your mastery. So chances to block (or even crit block) are high (enough). You will not be able to max the chance to 100% coverage, anyway. Adding more mastery will not prevent much more dmg. You will already block 30% (or more) dmg most of the time. However if you do not bock you have to eat a high amount of dmg. Also magic dmg is increased for some encounters. So it may be a good idea to up your health instead of increasing the chance to block a little bit more. You already will have a high chance anyway via reforging.

When that occurs and if that's the right thing to do, depends on the encouners. There are some encounters that favore mastery all the time. At magic intensive encoutners more health is just better. So as before, you have to gear for what you face if you are doing hc progressions.

Nehama
02-18-2011, 11:39 AM
Aight, thanks, it's just as I thought.

The thing is, I can't really think of one fight where stamina would benefit me more then higher chance for blocks and crit blocks. I have seen the normal versions of all the raid bosses, but I haven't started with hc ones just yet. The way I see it, the higher the damage incoming, the more you want to block 30% of it. [60% the more mastery you have...]

What really got me thinking that maybe hc's change the whole thing totally is a druid from one of those 12/12 hc guilds that was purly gemmed and trinketing for stamina. But maybe it's different for druids...

praetoria
02-18-2011, 11:47 AM
considering the point of the xpac and the general gear situation, I think its about time this topic changes its focus to unhitable sets and how we should handle stats once passing the point of unhittable.

at the moment, im sitting at :

50.16 block
16.63 parry
8.53 dodge

leaving a total of 75.32% chance "unhittable" without shield block being up. it appears to me that the 102.4 benchmark isnt very far off(at least with SB up) and if that is a real goal for tanks today, then the question needs to become "which is the most efficient unhittable configuration?". At first glance, i would assume that parry would be the stat of choice for HTL proc. But ive done nothing to prove this yet.

Illidra
02-18-2011, 11:50 AM
druids mastery works off attack power - more stam = more ap from vengeance = bigger savage defense absorbs.

Reev
02-18-2011, 12:16 PM
considering the point of the xpac and the general gear situation, I think its about time this topic changes its focus to unhitable sets and how we should handle stats once passing the point of unhittable.

at the moment, im sitting at :

50.16 block
16.63 parry
8.53 dodge

leaving a total of 75.32% chance "unhittable" without shield block being up. it appears to me that the 102.4 benchmark isnt very far off(at least with SB up) and if that is a real goal for tanks today, then the question needs to become "which is the most efficient unhittable configuration?". At first glance, i would assume that parry would be the stat of choice for HTL proc. But ive done nothing to prove this yet.

OK, unbuffed right now, with only 5/12 normal mode progression, unbuffed I have:

10.44% Dodge
14% Parry
55.84% block
5% Miss

That's 85.28% unhittability unbuffed. In full raid buffs, I push past 90% unhittability, in 5/12 normal mode progression without Shield Block or Impetuous Query active.

In normal modes, the bosses don't hit hard enough to make the giant health pools necessary, and the damage reduction from dodge/parry/block/miss/armor is far more important than some more stamina. As Kat said so well above, this changes going into heroic modes, because the minimum needed HP totals are significantly higher in heroic modes, so more stamina will be necessary.

praetoria
02-18-2011, 12:34 PM
i feel like "necessary" is a very grey area in that statment. is that implying we need to give up block/dodge/parry for stamina ? id assume the heroic gear offers enough stamina to satisfy the hp pool requirments. with the above stats, having shield block is what? close to 50% damage reduction by block? taht combined with pure avoidance stats... with a 33% uptime? i cant see stacking stam to the point equal to damage reductions and damage avoidences occuring under those circumstances.. it just sounds silly.

Reev
02-18-2011, 12:52 PM
i feel like "necessary" is a very grey area in that statment. is that implying we need to give up block/dodge/parry for stamina ? id assume the heroic gear offers enough stamina to satisfy the hp pool requirments. with the above stats, having shield block is what? close to 50% damage reduction by block? taht combined with pure avoidance stats... with a 33% uptime? i cant see stacking stam to the point equal to damage reductions and damage avoidences occuring under those circumstances.. it just sounds silly.

I'm basing my comments about Stamina being needed in heroics solely on the comments made by other tanks who are doing the heroics. It's possible they're wrong, of course, but if there are magic damage attacks that hit the tank for 130k, for example, all that block won't do a damn thing, and it comes down to the amount of buffer you've got built up. I haven't encountered anything like that yet, but I'm told that on heroic modes, you really need it.

And yeah, with Shield Block up, I'm over 50% critical block chance in raid (50% of blocked attacks, not all attacks of course), and unhittable. Against melee swings, Shield Block is now better for me than Shield Wall. Well, except for the fact that Shield Wall works on top of blocking mechanics, so I guess that's not really true at all.

Katzazi
02-19-2011, 07:33 AM
I've not done the hc modes as well. And there are enough warrior tanks who do hc and still focus on mastery. Don't look at bears when you are speaking about warriors. They have no parry to cover the combat table and their mastery is more complicated and less reliable as far as I can see it.

So back to warriors and the difference between the completely mastery focused strategy and focusing more on stamina. The difference is not as big as most think it is. You should reforge in the same manner. You probably want to get the same gem bonus. The meta gem decision is probably the same at least if you face heroic raid encounters. Most enchants are the same. The gearing differences are mostly about gems. You either focus them more on mastery or more on stamina (or go full out on mastery or stamina).

Additionally it's a different choice of trinkets. However trinkets should be chosen encounter based. So it's less of a fixed gearing strategy. Changing two trinkets form mastery/avoidance to two stamina trinkets will do a much bigger change to your HP than most other gearing decisions. And every tank (who has got the trinkets) can do this change for said encounter. If gemmed for stamina or for mastery.

The other difference can be the decision between flasks and elexiers. But it may be a good idea to make this decision encounter based, again. At least I'm drinking different stuff for different encounters even on normal modes. Elexiers give you so much options (even magic resistance).


So the real questions are:
- Do you need to switch over your gems form mastery to stamina to be able to survive the heroic raid encounters?
- Do you want to switch your trinkets (and flasks/elexiers) for specific encounters?

The second question should be answered by: yes, you probably want to do this. Independently of your overall gearing decisions and gering focus.

So the only remaining difference is the decision between different gems.

klausi
02-19-2011, 09:52 AM
The difference is not as big as most think it is.
That's an important point. Gemming mastery over stamina adds ~ 2.5% block, picking up tol barad trinket over valiona's is another ~ 3% block - in the end you gain 5-6% block for roughly 20.000 hitpoints. Add a flask over two elixir and that's 25.000. Unless your healer are complaining about healing issues i did really recommend going with a bigger hp-pool. It leaves so much more room for errors while learning new encounter. Best example actually is Chimaeron, there are times where being "close" to unhittable will wipe you. Halfus before 4.0.6 was another good example, even with shield wall running i barely managed surviving those roars with 170k raidbuffed. And for other bosses? I find myself quite often on very low hp during Maloriak on add duty.. and the list goes on.

And i can't see a reason while going either route not to take socket bonus.. well maybe unless you're using dps pieces.

Nehama
02-19-2011, 09:56 AM
That's not too occurate.

I remember some math, back at Woltk or maybe even TBC where the discussion about melee avoidance/migtation vs. magical res. was compared. Even on fights that have magical elements [Ch'ogal? Council? I can't think of other fights that are pure magical in this expantsion tbh], your overall melee damage would be more significant, and if you manage to bring that down, the massive damage from a breath or a magical attack won't really effect you that much.

The question I'm trying to answer to myself is more trinket-based. Would I prefer using avoidance trinkets?
I have the following trinkets:
[Throngus's Finger], [Impetuous Query], [Vial of Stolen Memories], [Mirror of Broken Images]. It's only a matter of time till I get Magmaw's one aswell.

The thing is that I've noticed I take MUCH less damage if I use the 1st two ones, even tho they're of lower quality and drop in heroic 5 mas. I don't think Magmaw's trinket is better at damage migtation then those 2, either. The uptime of both are about 10 seconds per minute, combined with shield wall it gives a huge benefit when used on massive damage pulls [Double attacks on Chim, Whelps + dragon tanking on halfus, blind dragon tanking after a massive aoe on the whole raid to give the healers a boost, adds on maloriak and actually, almost anywhere where I want to take lil' damage and give the healers some breathing space...]. Atm, I really can't think of a fight where magic res. or stamina would benefit me more then melee damage migtation, maybe only the crackles on nefarian. [Which I am testing atm, seems that if I manage to use the trinket exactly on a breath and have it last for a crackle, it's well worth it, otherwise both come quite even].

So basicly, I keep hearing that stamina trinkets are 'based on fight', and my question is... What fight do you use stamina trinkets?
I might even go farther and say that with higher gear, you automaticly get much more stamina, and those 5 man hc trinkets come with even BIGGER value then hc raids stamina trinkets...

klausi
02-19-2011, 10:14 AM
We're talking only about heroic modes, bosses hits way harder there (eg Atramedes 75k pre block). For normal mode there's absolutley no reason to stack stamina, ever. If you think you need to then you didn't understand the mechanics of this certain fight or your healers doing something very wrong.

I can't understand that you don't love the Mirror (especially for a warrior without 45-60s magical reduction cooldown), there are mechanics on every bossfight where it has it's uses (Magmaw: Spit, Omnotron: Magmatron's AoE, Maloriak: red phase, Chimaeron, caustic slime during Feud, Atramedes: Searing Flame, Nefarian: Crackle, Halfus: Fire Barrage and Fire Missiles during Roar, Valiona: Blackout, Council: Glaciate/Flamethrower/P3, Cho'Gall fire burst and p3, Conclave: Ice Guy cone and Ultimate, Al'Akir Electrocute).

praetoria
02-19-2011, 10:28 AM
ok, a simpler question..... which is better (in your oppinion).... unhittable or a larger hp pool?

klausi
02-19-2011, 10:56 AM
Of course unhittable, but that's not really possible in T11 gear so why bother? 90.2% or 99.2% all won't save you in the worst case scenario.

Warrior full 372 gear + Sinestra loot is close to 90% combined avoidance and block. Add raidbuffs, the right racial and fitting elixir/food and it's still not enough.

Protadin full 372 gear + Sinestra loot is even closer (~95%) but still can't fill the gap.

Booi
02-19-2011, 11:19 AM
Of course unhittable, but that's not really possible in T11 gear so why bother? 90.2% or 99.2% all won't save you in the worst case scenario.

The difference is the probability of you taking two unblocked hits in a row goes from ~1% to 0.0064%

It helps prevent your worst case scenario.

Reev
02-19-2011, 01:38 PM
The difference is the probability of you taking two unblocked hits in a row goes from ~1% to 0.0064%

It helps prevent your worst case scenario.

Yeah, I'm thinking that if the worst case scenario happens one in a hundred fights and causes a wipe, it's worth it to make the other 99 fights easier, with less damage taken. The only reason to stack stam instead are if you simply are unable to take the hits without it.

Katzazi
02-19-2011, 03:48 PM
I'm not at heroic content, too. But if you just cannot close the gap completely the difference between a worst case happening every 1% and a worst case happening every 0.004% of the time is not as big a difference as say 40k HP that maybe can give you a chance to survive this worst case better. In both cases you need a CD to cover this worst case if you want to beat it. In both cases you will probably only get one - maybe two during the same encounter. In both cases chances are more or less equally high that you can cover it with a CD. (Either there are no free CDs for oh-shit moments at all, or at least one of them is free most of the time.)

So if you are quite close to the cap but cannot reach it, it can sometimes be better, to take the bigger HP pool than to move a little bit closer to the not-reachable cap.

Btw: I've done this even for a normal encounter, when I was tanking the fire elemental from council. My HP bar really droped during this breathes and stayed quite low for some time. I switched over to a stamina trinket (Mirror is so good that I did not want to switch it) and experimented between resi elexier and stamina flask. Well a later saw that I had streaks of 8s-13s(!) with no direct heal. I got some PoH and stuff, but my assigned healer was quite lazy or did run to the fire and did not announce it and other healers did not realize it, as well. In one case I had to take 2 breathes without healing (and died due to it). My mastery helped me to survive as long, but the only thing that did the difference at this evening was when I switched over completely to stamina. Yes it was the fault of my healer. But this is a case where possible incoming dmg is much higher than reliable incoming healing. So at this point stamina won.

It's the same with heroic modes: The difference between your base HP (those from gear, buffs and food) for normal and heroic modes is not as big as the difference between boss hits on normal and heroic mode. You just don't get as much HP form gear while going from 346 to 359 as the hits increase. So possible dmg for heroic modes is relatively bigger than in normal modes even with better gear. However, the chance to get a block is already high (enough) for gear you wear on the normal modes when stacked for mastery. You don't need a much higher chance to block on heroic modes, because the chance was already so high. Since you cannot reach the cap anyway, it may be ok to face the boss with more or less the same chance to block on heroic mode as you do on normal mode.

praetoria
02-19-2011, 04:25 PM
Warrior full 372 gear + Sinestra loot is close to 90% combined avoidance and block. Add raidbuffs, the right racial and fitting elixir/food and it's still not enough.

Protadin full 372 gear + Sinestra loot is even closer (~95%) but still can't fill the gap.

is that with or without shield block up? certianly thats a big difference.

praetoria
02-19-2011, 04:31 PM
well, imo.... . a 004% chance of taking 2 full hits is highly unlikly. its far more likly that you will block then avoid those 2 hits.

Katzazi
02-19-2011, 04:37 PM
is that with or without shield block up? certianly thats a big difference.

What's the difference? SB will get you unhittable anyway. You will not be able to get it without SB. The only thing is that it moves the average CTC a little bit nearer to unhittable. But that does not change anything for the current discussion.


well, imo.... . a 004% chance of taking 2 full hits is highly unlikly. its far more likly that you will block then avoid those 2 hits.

Yes 0.004% unlikely. But not impossible. So you should react somehow if you know that you took a full hit and will not be able to survive another one. (Or if you know that you can just survive another one but healers cannot take you up fast enough alone to survive anything after that, which should more be the case when you get regular healing.)

praetoria
02-19-2011, 04:37 PM
What's the difference? SB will get you unhittable anyway. You will not be able to get it without SB. The only thing is that it moves the average CTC a little bit nearer to unhittable. But that does not change anything for the current discussion.

"Warrior full 372 gear + Sinestra loot is close to 90% combined avoidance and block"

i asked is that 90% with or without SB up...

Katzazi
02-19-2011, 04:39 PM
With SB up you are clearly over 102.4%. As you are with correctly treated 346 gear and probably lower gear.

Aggathon
02-19-2011, 05:46 PM
I wrote out a long post, then gave up. My vote is stack mastery/avoidance as a warrior. If you are working on a fight, specifically HM, that requires more hit points, switch trinkets. If trinkets aren't enough, then start regemming for stamina. Prismatic Elixirs go a long way too.


Also, your shenanigans about taking 2 hits, you're not going to die from two melee hits. More like 5 or 6 full hits. And if you look at:

[img]http://www.tankspot.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1528&d=1272931652[img]

At 92% dodge+parry+block, the odds of that are literally zero when running the simulator 10,000 times.

Papapaint
02-19-2011, 05:50 PM
I wrote out a long post, then gave up. My vote is stack mastery/avoidance as a warrior.

You need to change the little thingie under your name.

Aggathon
02-19-2011, 05:52 PM
I can still be the Czar of Stam if I'm still telling people when and how to use it =P.

If you have a better title then I'm listening, lol. Statistically Sadistic maybe?

Papapaint
02-19-2011, 05:54 PM
I can still be the Czar of Stam if I'm still telling people when and how to use it =P.

If you have a better title then I'm listening, lol. Statistically Sadistic maybe?

"It Depends"

Aggathon
02-19-2011, 05:56 PM
Maybe I should just put this as my title: http://www.xkcd.com/552/

Airowird
02-20-2011, 03:18 AM
Wouldn't that become "Stadistic Czar" then? :P

and yeah, XKCD is awesome :D

jere
02-20-2011, 07:02 AM
I'm basing my comments about Stamina being needed in heroics solely on the comments made by other tanks who are doing the heroics. It's possible they're wrong, of course, but if there are magic damage attacks that hit the tank for 130k, for example, all that block won't do a damn thing, and it comes down to the amount of buffer you've got built up. I haven't encountered anything like that yet, but I'm told that on heroic modes, you really need it.


Just something to consider, I haven't run into a magic attack like that in heroics which isn't tied to a fight mechanic such as an interrupt or safe zone (unless I am forgetting one).

Fetzie
02-20-2011, 07:25 AM
Just something to consider, I haven't run into a magic attack like that in heroics which isn't tied to a fight mechanic such as an interrupt or safe zone (unless I am forgetting one).

raid heroic mode != 5man heroic :) Apparently there is a LOT of magical damage flying around that hits hard.

praetoria
02-20-2011, 08:31 AM
agg is right, and i havent seen anyone post here who has a better reputation the him. Im in 359 gear and im buffing out to 186k.. to my knowladge, there is no magic ability that casts every 2 seconds and lands for 100k or more. ( if its not interuptale, dispelable, exct)

until max amount of hits before death without heals is a mechanic on the table again, mastery/avoidance wins.

klausi
02-20-2011, 10:03 AM
there is noability that casts every 2 seconds and lands for 100k or more.
What's about Maloriak's breath or Flamethrower on Twilight Council? A massive hitpool leaves way more room for errors while learning new encounter from both you and your healers unless you can almost guarantee no back to back hits. And just think about mt-healers mana.. anyone out there having problem keeping a stam tank up with epic decked out gear? They will toss in the same huge heals and keep hots rolling anyway, they just play WotLK style again and keep queing the biggest heals into me and don't heal reactivley like it was Blizzards intention for this addon.

praetoria
02-20-2011, 10:13 AM
but those are isolated. thats when its time to use a cd. its not pike PP or surfang where the holy paladin absolutly needs to spam holy light on the tank the entire duration of the fight, because if he dosnt the tank will die in4 seconds. when you say massive, what are you compairing to? im not suggesting to walk into a heroic fight with 130k hp.. but that wouldnt be the case anyway. Id be more concerned with how the healers are handling the rest of the fight.

Loganisis
02-20-2011, 11:11 AM
I can still be the Czar of Stam if I'm still telling people when and how to use it =P.

Wouldn't that be the Stam Nazi "No Soup, I mean Stam for you!" ;-)

Papapaint
02-20-2011, 11:22 AM
but those are isolated. thats when its time to use a cd. its not pike PP or surfang where the holy paladin absolutly needs to spam holy light on the tank the entire duration of the fight, because if he dosnt the tank will die in4 seconds. when you say massive, what are you compairing to? im not suggesting to walk into a heroic fight with 130k hp.. but that wouldnt be the case anyway. Id be more concerned with how the healers are handling the rest of the fight.

Honestly though, I think it boils down to progression gearing. Insofar as I've found, mana management hasn't been so much of a problem as losing a tank or dps due to an unexpected burst of damage.

For a hard example, I'll offer Nezir from Conclave. When learning the fight, there were several times where, due to changes in our healer setup (to try different healers doing different jobs) or timing or positioning or what have you, the tank who went from Rohash's platform to Nezir's platform would drop severely. Without a large health pool, he would have died; however, because he chose to gear in such a way that he could handle large bursts of damage without dying, we were able to top him off and continue the attempt.

Healer mana is not nearly as large of a concern as people in this thread are making it out to be. A properly performing healing team with specific assignments is unlikely to run out of mana except while first learning progression encounters. With this in mind, I don't see the point per se of trying to "save healer mana."

There's certainly something to be said for straight damage reduction, particularly on fights that you know will turn out to be melee-heavy.
However, I do honestly think that any tank's first gearing strategy walking into a brand new fight should revolve around as much EH as possible. Even if that EH turns out to only be good for the tank living an extra three seconds after the healers go down, it still provides your raid with more information from a progression fight.

Ultimately, and this has always been the case, the single best method is to have multiple gearsets and swap them on a case by case basis.

praetoria
02-20-2011, 11:45 AM
Honestly though, I think it boils down to progression gearing. Insofar as I've found, mana management hasn't been so much of a problem as losing a tank or dps due to an unexpected burst of damage.

Ultimately, and this has always been the case, the single best method is to have multiple gearsets and swap them on a case by case basis.

Hit it right on the head. there is a small grey area when having these discussions. this is it for the most part. Im even looking at how resistances play into things now simply because you can never be over prepared for a specific encounter.

Aggathon
02-20-2011, 07:33 PM
Can you link me your tank's armories that are "stacking stam"? Because so far the only people "stacking stam" that people have showed me are people that use really good stam trinkets (which I've stated before is more than acceptable for changing between fights, in fact in this expansion I think that trinket switching is going to be the most important thing between fights) and maybe have 1 or 2 straight stam gems, but the rest are avoidance/mastery gems and matching socket bonuses.

The only tanks I've seen that people just can't keep up (specifically this was halfus) were tanks that just stacked stam. Like I was saying before, if you do need more raw HP for a specific fight, switch trinkets and if it's stopping your progress, then stack stam, but so far from what I've seen (granted papapaint has a much much better view of this than I do) the HP requirements are not really THAT high. They're high for some fights, but it doesn't seem like stacking stam out da butt is necessary, at least not for warriors.

Edit: I armory stalked your guild. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/garona/jujubie/advanced <- I have no idea if that is one of your main tanks, but this person is gemmed exactly how I would gem that same gear. That epic stam trinket is amazing, and the other one is okay, there are better and it should be switched out depending on the fight and other trinkets available.

Edit2: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/garona/kaeps/advanced <- same with that guy, that's how you gem and reforge a warrior.

Reev
02-20-2011, 10:09 PM
Edit2: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/garona/kaeps/advanced <- same with that guy, that's how you gem and reforge a warrior.

You'd recommend reforging +372 hit rating? I don't think I'd do that unless I were on interrupt duty or some such, and I never am (though I do support the interrupters when possible).

Aggathon
02-20-2011, 10:12 PM
Yes, the guy is clearly on interrupt duty for a fight.

Meloree
02-20-2011, 10:55 PM
They tank our alt runs.

Papapaint
02-20-2011, 10:56 PM
Can you link me your tank's armories that are "stacking stam"? Because so far the only people "stacking stam" that people have showed me are people that use really good stam trinkets (which I've stated before is more than acceptable for changing between fights, in fact in this expansion I think that trinket switching is going to be the most important thing between fights) and maybe have 1 or 2 straight stam gems, but the rest are avoidance/mastery gems and matching socket bonuses.

The only tanks I've seen that people just can't keep up (specifically this was halfus) were tanks that just stacked stam. Like I was saying before, if you do need more raw HP for a specific fight, switch trinkets and if it's stopping your progress, then stack stam, but so far from what I've seen (granted papapaint has a much much better view of this than I do) the HP requirements are not really THAT high. They're high for some fights, but it doesn't seem like stacking stam out da butt is necessary, at least not for warriors.

Edit: I armory stalked your guild. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/garona/jujubie/advanced <- I have no idea if that is one of your main tanks, but this person is gemmed exactly how I would gem that same gear. That epic stam trinket is amazing, and the other one is okay, there are better and it should be switched out depending on the fight and other trinkets available.

Edit2: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/garona/kaeps/advanced <- same with that guy, that's how you gem and reforge a warrior.

Neither toon is in our main raids, those are both farming alt raids--we'd be having a hell of a time if our main tank were stacked in half blues :p

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/garona/meloree/advanced

There's our MT, matching socket bonuses with Stam hybrid gems, running double stam trinkets. However, the question at hand is whether or not Avoidance is more effective than EH, not whether or not socket bonuses provide enough incentive for players to match them. With health pools so hilariously large at the moment, I do think it does make slightly more sense to grand slightly less stat weight to stamina than WotLK. Not, however, to the extent of preferring avoidance to EH.

The only argument I've seen in this thread in favor of avoidance over EH are these mythical problems of healer mana and healers being unable to sustain a tank under heavy damage, both of which are patently untrue. At early gear levels, it can be difficult and mana intensive to keep up a single target, but just about any healing will be difficult and mana intensive. In full 359, it's relatively cheap to keep up a single tank without concern for mana or being unable to handle incoming damage vs. healing output.

Loganisis
02-20-2011, 11:47 PM
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/garona/meloree/advancedI do think it does make slightly more sense to grand slightly less stat weight to stamina than WotLK. Not, however, to the extent of preferring avoidance to EH.

Do you consider mastery avoidance? Because I'm not sure I'm seeing any argue for dodge/parry gearing as the primary gearing option.

gacktt
02-21-2011, 12:11 AM
Mastery is not EH until you have passive unhittable, and even then if you gear for that magic damage makes you spikier than a blue tank on malchezar.

Aggathon
02-21-2011, 12:16 AM
Fascinating Papapaint. Duly noted.

I am kinda interested in how block weighs into that though. For a warrior once you're at 72.4% dodge+block+parry, if shield block is up (which it should be when you need it) then block is essentially another layer of armor since it's all multiplicative now and is for mathematical purposes, EHP.

How gearing curves work, it seems like in earlier content it's better to stack mastery, so maybe the ideal gearing path for a warrior would be more like mastery and avoidance/stam hybrid gems up to 72.4%, then stack stam once you get into heroics.

Loganisis
02-21-2011, 12:26 AM
Mastery is not EH until you have passive unhittable, and even then if you gear for that magic damage makes you spikier than a blue tank on malchezar.

Understood. But it's not avoidance either. It's RNG mitigation. 72.4+ is completely reachable, and 90+ before miss seems to reachable in full heroics.

Arguing that gemming mastery is avoidance isn't accurate as it will never be avoidance, and it's also confusing because it's a sliding scale. At soft-cap, it is gauranteed mitigation with SB, and next tier, it will likely be guaranteed passive unless they change the amount returned or add mastery DR.

To group mastery with dodge and parry muddies the water quite a lot.

Even so, if I recall from the previous WotLK disscussions, there was a point avoidance-centric 102.4% gearing led to greater survivability compared to EH, and that was 85%+ generally. At that point a double attack is highly improbable, and a 4 or 5 steak is very limited. But it was a theoretical point as the gear didn't allow it to be reached.

Just like before, block (mastery) doesn't fit into avoidance and doesn't quite fit into EH (yet). I think it's important, for keeping the discussion clear and on point, to think of them in that content. Dodge/Parry = avoidance. EH is damage reduction and stamina. And Block is a stepchild, but one that fits more closely with EH, espcially in times of SB usage, than avoidance.

Airowird
02-21-2011, 01:25 AM
So aren't we back to Burst Time (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?37241-The-power-of-avoidance-(preliminary-results)) then?

With Block being considered as avoidance below Unhittable for 2/3 of the time and being mitigation (and crit block being avoidance) 1/3 of the time, assuming max SB uptime.
(This would be true for nearly any fight except Chimaeron, where you would be able to SB every Double Strike, thus always counting it as mitigation.)

Katzazi
02-21-2011, 04:09 AM
Even when for the time one is below Unhittable, block (or mastery) is not avoidance. You GET dmg when you block or crit block. It has to be healed. A blocked attack needs some healing afterwards. An avoided hit does not.

Especially if you think about the model of Burst Time you linked, this is important. Because the assumption is, that one can be healed back to full, if one avoids at last once. That's not the case for a block that is following a full hit in Cata heroic raids. At least not everywhere and all the time.

Btw: Mastery also gives a warrior crit block. Which is not to neglect. At the mastery values we are discussing one will at least crit block over 50% of the time (more like 60%). Those crit blocks may be somewhat nearer to the assumptions made about Avoidance in the Burst Dmg Model.

However, I don't think any old model works for todays block-masteries before Unhittable.

One important part is, that healing actually has changed, too. Heal-sizes are reduced compared at least to the Wrath model. And Blizz has introduced a relatively stringent approach to heal sizes and their mana costs. Ok, most healers have some kind of free or low cost instant heals to add, but overall quick heals are relatively big but extremely expensive. No healer can afford to use them all the time. So one new element is to at least think about the pattern of dmg that has to be healed. Sure everybody will get dmg spikes that need at least one or two fast heals afterwards. But that's mostly because of special boss activities that are just there and can be predicted. The important part is how the dmg income will and should look for the rest of the time. Because that's the time where the healers need to get some time to heal the tank back up hopefully with less expensive heals and maybe even get a break so that they can do at least something else than chain-spamming the tank (popping a regen CD, throwing something at the group, reposition themselves, refreshing stuff on the tank, ...)

The old models don't include the new healing model. But it's relevant and most of us include it in our gearing decisions. It's not that mana is too scarce or whatever. It's less that heals are not as big compared to healthpools anymore. The important new element is that the amount to be healed is not the dedicating element for mana costs, but the time you have to heal this amount. If you have enough time to heal it with the slow cheap heals, every healer in raid gear will even regen mana while doing so. If the heals have to be faster they get more expensive for the same amount. I've only healed some bosses in normal mode. But I don't think that any healer is able to use the burst heals constantly with the gear one has for heroic modes for the whole course of one encounter. (Papapaint should correct me if I'm wrong here.)

So tank models that expect burst healing are less appropriate for current raids. And that's one part of the Burst Time model. Old avoidance is about reducing the amount that needs to be healed. EH is about surviving on one's own as long as possible with healers doing anything and hopefully something to get all those tank health back up again.

The old TTL model works better. It's about what a tank is able to do without getting heals. You can add heals and see how long the TTL is with different kinds of heals. And that's something where block shines much more than either Avoidance or old EH.

Kojiyama
02-21-2011, 07:33 AM
Agg, I have historically loved Burst Time but I've paused to think about its implications nowadays and am not 100% certain it's quite right without some minor adjustments to the model.

a) Block doesn't fit in well with Burst Time and is somewhat undervalued compared to its practical value. It would need to be considered in a bit better of a way somehow. (From the Burst Time mentality, Block is simply weaker than avoidance. In reality, it's pretty awesome.)

b) I'm not certain that the model of 'you get topped off between every avoid' is quite right given the size of heals nowadays, at least in 10-man raids. I'm certain it takes longer than one swing timer to top off a low-health tank nowadays in most cases. (I could be wrong about this, but that is just my observation.)

I still think Burst Time is a good statistical model--it just needs some adjustments to account for new mechanics.

Given the nature of incoming damage and healing, I'm simply inclined to take the 'minimum HP threshold then stack the most efficient mitigation' approach--which is basically what all Druids do indirectly via Agility stacking and what most Warriors and Paladins are doing with Mastery stacking.

At the end of the day, this may get tougher when gems get bigger and we have more slots, but honestly it's hardly even something we have to think about beyond trinket slots anymore. The difference between stamina gems and avoidance gems is not a whole lot of health, and a number of enchant slots are one or the other, rather than choosing between both. So, it comes down to carrying around a couple different trinkets and swapping when needed.

Kojiyama
02-21-2011, 07:41 AM
As a quick follow-up, the biggest argument I see right now for stacking avoidance is this:

There is a lot of raid damage nowadays in many fights.

It seems less of a tank's job to be a mana sponge/burst damage avoider as much as it is to minimize the amount of time healers have to spend healing them. More fights seem to be about managing healer time (rather than mana, although that's a consideration as well) than it is about avoiding massive attacks on the tank.

Certainly a few fights (and I presume hardmodes, although I haven't done many myself) are tough on tank healing, but erring on the side of damage reduction in the majority of cases seems to be working pretty well for me. (Which is good, because otherwise Druids would be pretty crap.)

Bakabon
02-21-2011, 09:51 AM
Shouldn't the debate shift away from avoidance vs. EH towards "high volatility" vs. "low volatility" gearing?

1. Low Volatility Gearing: One gearing strategy would be to stack nothing but mastery. This would decrease the overall variation in damage you are taking over time. This strategy would benefit healing styles that provide a steady, predictable flow of health to the tank.

2. High Volatility Gearing: The other gearing option is to stack dodge/parry + stamina. This choice would increase the overall variation in damage you receive. There will be long periods where the tank takes no damage at all, and others when he is constantly being hit. A larger health pool is needed to help mitigate the bad spikes. But the down side of volatility can also be countered with skill: wise use of trinkets, abilities, etc. This strat seems to be more suitable for healing styles that provide burst healing and then regen, or for those who have multiple healing assignments.

Given that there is very little difference in overall stat points between dodge/parry/mastery according to Rawr, I think either strat can work. But personally, I like the second strategy. It is like hedging a high-risk stock. With skill, you can minimize the downside, and the upside can be used to save the healers mana and stress. I think there needs to be more people speaking up for dodge/parry rather than just the "all mastery, all the time" status quo.

Kojiyama
02-21-2011, 10:06 AM
The thing is, even though there is little statistical difference, Mastery and Parry do come out on top in terms of total damage reduction at moderate gear levels anyway. Almost any profile optimized for Mitigation in Rawr.ProtWarr, for instance, will be at least soft-capped during Shield Block for 100%--and typically be advised to stack primarily Mastery with perhaps a bit of Parry reforging.

For example, optmizing a very well-geared Warrior with heroic gear for mitigation ends up with stats something like 2.5k Mastery, 2.5k Parry, and 1.8k Dodge. This yields 35% avoidance and 52% block--adding to ~88% chance to either avoid or block without Shield Block active.

(And obviously 100% with Shield Block active. This averages to 92% of attacks being either avoided or blocked with normal Shield Block usage, and 24% of all incoming attacks on average being Critical Blocks. This means around 54% of attacks are either avoided or critically blocked.)

So, the "high volatility" avoidance is generally worse on both accounts. Parry and Mastery both have nice synergy and with the increasing returns of Mastery make for a solid combination for Warriors.

In regard to Druids, there is little to be be considering either. Agility increases both forms of mitigation (shield absorbs via Crit and AP in addition to Dodge) and as such is a well-rounded gemming approach. Otherwise, all ratings-based contributions are done via a mix of static absorb-based increasers like Crit/Mastery, with the lowest value being reforged to Dodge. As Dodge extends the potential duration/uptime of absorbs, there is some synergy there that works together better than going one direction or the other.

Paladins seem to have Mastery as so efficient that it's hard to see them not going that direction. DKs I don't really know enough about the balance of mechanics to say.

So, really, the theory you mention is probably interesting--but in practical terms, the low volatility options are almost always coming out on top either way.

Reev
02-21-2011, 10:16 AM
This debate comes down to gemming options, really. You can't reforge to Stam, and people seem to generally agree that at this point in the gearing spectrum, mastery is better than dodge/parry. That leaves Gems and Trinkets. Trinkets can and should be switched specifically for each fight, so that's kind of a moot point. Gems are harder to do this with.

I have 12 total gem slots, which could net me as much as 720 stam if I ignored socket bonuses (I'm counting the cog slots in my helm like normal gem slots). That's close to 12k HP. If I went for socket bonuses, I'd get around 570 Stam, or ~9k HP.

If I went all mastery, I'd get 608 mastery rating, which is somewhere around 3% block. If I gem for socket bonuses, as I do now, I have something like 448 mastery rating, which is probably around 2.5% block.

So the swing to stamina only nets you around 10k-ish more HP, while the swing to Mastery nets you around 3ish% more block. That's what we're really fighting over here. Trinkets change based on fight.

Personally, I'd rather have the 3%ish more block than the 10kish more HP, for general purpose. I might switch in stam trinkets for some bosses, but generally speaking, I prefer the mastery.

Kojiyama
02-21-2011, 10:18 AM
It's especially worth considering that as you push upward on Heroics and get higher ilevel gear, the value of Stamina gems drops pretty quickly. That 10k HP is only 5% of the health of a buffed Warrior with two Stamina trinkets in mostly heroic gear--which can easily hit 200k from what I've seen.

At that point, 16-17 gems of Mastery starts being very powerful due to the increasing returns, so it's a harder case to make that it's worth dumping a ton of avoidance for 5% health.

It also doesn't hurt that the Stamina trinkets themselves have tons of avoidance and/or Mastery on them anyway via the effects--so even if you love avoidance, the "Stamina" trinkets are pretty nice.

While this may be an argument in the future, it really isn't a meaningful choice right now.

Katzazi
02-21-2011, 10:23 AM
@Bakabon
You cannot assume that only tanks gearing for avoidance over mastery would use trinktes and CDs with their skill.

Actually I see no point at the moment to gear for avoidance over mastery for block tanks. At least while speaking about raid or even heroic raid content. There are no such healing styles like you assume. You cannot burst heal and regen in Cata like you could before. There is no mp5-rule anymore and burst healing costs much more mana than constant healing with lower amounts.

Kojiyama
02-21-2011, 10:27 AM
There are a few points where avoidance is slightly better than Mastery (primarily Parry, due to Hold the Line reinforcing Mastery indirectly) in the reforging department. As a general rule, spamming Mastery works fine though.

Katzazi
02-21-2011, 10:43 AM
Sure, but in most cases you get this parry from reforging other values where mastery is on option, anyway.

Bakabon
02-21-2011, 10:51 AM
@Katzazi
I'm not trying to imply anything about the skill of differently geared tanks. What I'm saying is that volatility has an upside and a downside. On-use abilities can be used to counteract the downside, just like hedging can protect against the downside of a volatile stock. The upside is that during the non-hit streaks healers can either save mana or be free to focus on other targets.

@Kojiyama
Given that as you say there is little statistical difference, I think what is more important is the type of healers you have and their awareness of your gearing strategy rather than a hard-fast rule of stacking mastery. It seems to me that given the variation in healing mechanics, some healers will be better at healing "high volatility" tanks, while others would be better with the "low volatility" variety. It also of course depends on the encounter...

Airowird
02-21-2011, 11:00 AM
You can adjust Block to be relative to Avoidance. Because avoidance is already a chance on occurance, you can model Block to be 30% (or 60% for Crit Block) of it's chance as 'full' avoidance. e.g. 30% 'normal' block chance would be equal to 9% avoidance.

While healing has changed, it is not as drastic as some claim/wish it to be.
Although you can not mindlessly spam heals, your healers will usually spend certain timeframes of a fight expecting a certain amount of damage. This will allow them to predict an average HPS requirement and during those timeframes, heal accordingly. (Best example is Maloriak)
On top of that, if you adjust the Burst Time model to assume you start from a certain %HP or HP deficit, you only need to adjust h (the tank HP) and the model remains relatively valid.

The problem with TTL (and TankPoints, which is a similar model) is that it is based on ending in your untimely demise.
A perfect model takes into account:
1) (incoming) HPS >= (incoming) DPS over an entire fight
2) In any given timeframe t -> t + dt, where HPS < DPS, you need dt < HP(t) / ( DPS - HPS )
3) At any time when you drop below a certain x %HP, HPS is increased until you reach a 'safe' y %HP as a result of healers responding to your situation.
4) If you are being healed by a Shaman, an increase in HP reduces the healing you receive at a same amount of deficit HP.

Let's take (1) as a given, assuming both you and your healer(s) are appropriately geared for the encounter (with the exception of 10man Hard Modes, which is statisticly impossible half the time). We can also ignore (4) or atleast link it to the Shaman's gearing rather than the tank's.
That leaves us with (2) and (3).
We can state that during those timeframes in (2), one dodge/parry extends the frame with atleast (at 0 HPS) 1 swing duration.
Similarly, Block has a 30% chance and Crit Block has a 60% chance of extending this frame with the same length as above.
At the same time, HP extends this time frame by HP/DPS seconds.
Adding the chance of such timeframe happening, Burst Time is still a close approximation to this situation, with the lack of HPS as it's major flaw. Because Block both reduces HPS needed as well as smooth out damage to prevent (3), it's probably the best option at nearly any point in gearing. When looking at EHP vs full avoidances, there needs to be a balanced model, where again Burst Time is technicly the best model we currently have.

If someone has a better model, I'm more than interested, would create one myself if I had the time.