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View Full Version : Tanking Prot Warrior Struggling with threat aand everything else!



mrspikey626
02-18-2011, 07:10 AM
Hey so I've only been playing wow for about 3 months now and I feel like I've gotten the hang of the game. So I've been raiding a lot with my guild and what i noticed after this recent patch where heroic strike got "changed" I've been having a lot of trouble holding aggroo even on ppl pulling only 15k dps.:confused: Before the recent patch I never really had trouble holding aggro I've checked the forum up and down and got random answers. I was hoping someone could really just be straight forward and explain why I could be losing aggro. I even reforged some of my stats to expertise (which i originally had all on mastery). My rotation for single target is charge shield wall, shield slam, dev, (till 3 stack of sunder) rend, demoshout, thunder clap, heroic strike on rage over 70 (which i think is so useless now compare to the damage output of dev that's glyphed and improved revenge x.x")etc.. and funny thing is i still lose agrroo in our raids dps:(. :( Could someone please explain to me what im doing wrong? or what would be a better rotation or maybe I'm gemming my gear wrong :( sorry to seem so new about the game haven't been playing for long ><

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kiljaeden/ofzspikey/advanced

and tips would be greatly appreciated.:eek:

Perrian
02-18-2011, 07:41 AM
For One never stop using Devestate... its purpose isn't just for applying Sunder... its one of your highest TPS attacks.

I would also take points out of Blood Craze and put them into Deep Wounds (thats extra TPS).

Machoen
02-18-2011, 07:55 AM
I've noticed the same, man. And what Perrian said, don't stop using your devastate, it's good damage.

What you can do: 3 points in deep wounds, use vigilance on the other tank and get miss directed. Use Inner Rage if you get a lot of rage ;)

- p.s. you dont use revenge`? dude.. :o

Katzazi
02-18-2011, 07:58 AM
About your rotation. I think you are speaking about SB not SW. However don't start with 3 dev if you have threat problems. Don't use demo as early if you have thrat problems.

If you have anybody else who can apply sunder easily forget about the 3stack at all. (It's cake for cats and easy for rogues and doable for arms/fury.) Sure, as soon as you have it up, don't let it drop again, but it's more important to ensure threat over giving your people more dps.

But back to the basics: Try to think about your rotation as the following:

SS -> 3* (Revenge > Devastate)

Since you should have a Revenge-proc more or less all the time it should look more like:

SS -> Revenge -> Devastat -> Devastate

However as soon as you get a S&B procc for a free SS start the thing at the beginning. That's your basic rotation. You should alway think about it as a 4 GCD rotation. Your goal is to stay as true to this 4 GCDs as possible (with starting it over for every S&B proc).

If you would stick to this rotation all the time, there would be no possibility to use all the other stuff that needs to be done. So it has to be integratet into your rotation. The best place is the last Devastate. You will lose a possible S&B proc, but since you will have SS up for the next GCD anyway, it's not a problem. So actually your rotation looks more like:

SS -> Revenge -> Devastate -> anything else that needs to be done

Add HS to the mix whenever you think that you have enough rage. I don't use it at a fixed amount of rage. But I keep an eye open to what dmg I will take for the next few GCDs. In raids it's ok to HS on CD in many cases. You even can use IR and HS on every GCD often enough.

Since you have both Thunder & Blood and Thunderstruck, you can also try to integrate those stuff into your rotation. Add rend early and try to refresh TC and Shockwave on CD. Do this while keeping up your normal rotation. Since you may have to relay TC now and again wait with your Shockwave until you have used 3 TC since the last Shockwave to get a full Thunderstruck stack.

With this your rotation looks more like this (I'm assuming Rend is still up and nothing else needs to be refreshed and HS used as possible):

SS -> Rev -> Dev -> TC -> SS -> Rev -> Dev -> TC -> SS -> Rev -> Dev -> TC -> SS -> Rev -> SW -> TC

since you will have some S&B procs the interveving of both rotations will move stuff around somehow, but I hope you get the idea.

Now about your talents:
- If you have rage problems (and maybe you have some, since you are thinking about when to integrate HS) put more points into Shield Specialization.
- Remove the points from Blood Craze. This talent is extremely underbudgeted. Only take it if you want to reach tier 2 of fury.
- Use those points for Deep Wounds (or at least all of them that you don't put into Shield Specialization).
- I think Deep Wounds is better than Incite at the moment.

Petninja
02-18-2011, 07:59 AM
Deep Wounds is a DPS increase over Cruelty. I would suggest changing that. Beyond that I'd say it has to be watching your SnB procs or HS usage.

Reev
02-18-2011, 08:01 AM
Shield Slam is more important than Revenge is more important than Devastate. HS when you have enough rage (which is almost always if you have 3/3 shield spec). Conc Blow and Shockwave fit in there too, but it's not vital that you use them properly in order to hold reasonable threat. My single target rotation usually looks something like:

Charge>Shield Block+Shield Slam+HS>Revenge>TC+HS>Devastate Spam, using Shield Slam when available and Revenge when available. I Throw in Demo Shout when I feel like I have reasonable control, which is usually pretty early on, especially if I have misdirects.

For Multi-Target:

Charge>Shield Block+TC+Cleave>Shockwave>Rend+Cleave>TC>Single Target Rotation+Cleave, using TC and Shockwave whenever they're up. Demo Shout when things are under control.

mrspikey626
02-18-2011, 04:50 PM
Ahhh thankyou everyone for all the advise ill try to tonights raid. And yes I also do use revenge soory forgot to mention that. Thanks again for the advise everyone. Its so hard learning about this game x.x

Sirloinsteak
02-18-2011, 10:06 PM
yeah more points in shield special = more rage = more threat ... i changed my spec a while ago so i only had 1 point in shield special and it was horrible i would constantly run out of rage ... so i took one point out of deep wounds and put that extra point in shield special so i had 2 points in each and it works like a charm :)

Zarc
02-19-2011, 01:57 AM
Awesome post have been having trouble myself.

heres my link.http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/dathremar/zarc/simple

having read this now relise i will need to add another point in shield specz.

Katzazi, thxs for a clear rotation.

Havent been understanding why tps has been crap since patch.

First time posting

Katzazi
02-19-2011, 07:43 AM
@Zarc:

I don't know how to help you more when only seeing your armory link. You are reforging for threat stats. That should not be needed. On the contrary most warriors on tankspot don't invest anything into hit and expertise. We reforge away from it to get more avoidance and block, so we can live longer. Threat and dmg should be just no problem at all. I'm around 2% hit and 4 expertise or something at the moment and I don't even have Deep Wounds or full Incite. I've had less hit and less expertise with the same spec and did not have problems, either. (On the contrary there was a running gag that I'm playing a dps warrior instead of a prot warrior because my dmg was so high while tanking some raid bosses.)

Get those points in Shield Specialization, so that you get much more rage from it. And work on your rotation if you can improve it. That should help you much more than any hit and expertise you can get. If you are there, move all this hit and expertise to survival stats and get your healers happy. :)

Tengenstein
02-19-2011, 08:16 AM
i would be cautious about purposely stacking thunderstruck on a single target fight. its a very good talent but is+30% shockwave threat worth substituing 3 devs for 3 TC+3 Rend ticks(bad assumption i know)

Going off WarTotem's spreadsheet with 0 vengeance my rend ticks for about 3k threat and TC hits for 5K, so about 8k threat for that GCD, Dev is worth 13.5k threat, so i lose 16.5k threat by TCing on CD Single target

Shockwave is 14.2k (must ask war totem about that, seems really low) so an addition 30% is 4.3k threat

at 100% vengeance Dev:23k, TC+rend tick: 17.5k, SW:39K so i lose 16.5k for substituting TC+rend tick for Dev, but gain 11.7k form Thunderstuck.

not worth it for me on the face of, though theres alot of other factors to consider.

Katzazi
02-19-2011, 03:57 PM
Tengenstein: Math says that it is worth to use Thunderstruck and B&T on single targets if you are already talented for it. (I did not do the math myself and don't know even where to look for it, but I trust Kojiyama for this.)

The thing you don't think about is, that you would have to use TC 2/3 of the time, anyway, to keep up the TC debuff. Rend needs only to be applied once. So it's actually one TC and one Shockwave every Shockwave CD. The Thunderstruck Schockwave hits quite hard. Devastate is a very bad ability that also scales bad with AP.

Overall it's a slight increase in dmg and threat to use it if you are talented for it. (You can get better results for single targets if you take another talent-build, but if you have only one prot spec, one may want to have it for all the trash, and multi-mob boss encounters.)

Zarc
02-19-2011, 09:31 PM
@ katzazi sorry was first time posting.

Ok Basicly what i have been doing in a pull for a single target was HT, charge, SS, Dev, Prco / Rend, TC , SS , Dev..dump excess rage with HS repeat without the rend.
What i was finding was that i lost aggro 10 -15 secs in. Thats why i have been reforging for the hit. I know i am doing something wrong but cant see it, I have even started using rage potions before the pull so i have a full rage bar .

On Aoe trash pulls HT, charge , TC , Rend, Cleve,TC , SW

Have a feeling its been in my rotation or not the best use of my abilities.

Katzazi
02-20-2011, 05:49 AM
Since you are speced into improved Revenge you should give it a higher priority than Devastate. Especially if you have rage problems. You should maximize Shield Specialization if you face big rage problems. Rend is not as important for the direct opening. Use it as soon as you are sure to have the aggro of the target for single target encounters. And try to stick to the 4 GCD-rotation and about starting it over every time you get a free SS: As long as another ability than SS. Revenge and Devastate can wait a little bit longer, use it only as the 4th element of this rotation.

For multi target encounters it's good to use SW quite early and apply Rend while mobs are stunned to get both T&B and Thunderstruck going early. (If you use Shockwave after the 2nd TC as you are doing you lose much to get Thunderstruck up to 3 stacks. Use Shockwave just before your first TC than your Thunderstruck Shockwave is only delayed by one GCD. Additionally, it's the biggest frontloaded AoE dmg that you can make AND it reduces early incoming dmg and interrupts casts becaue of the stun.


Btw: Everybody going by low hit and expertise has to taunt some mob back eventually because of bad luck. But well, it does not hurt anybody, as long as we do it right when we lose the aggro of the mob. But after some seconds into the fight, you should not lose aggro anymore because Vengeance should give you so much AP that it's just impossible. (Only exception special low-hitting bosses combined with a goup that heaviliy outgears you.)

Tengenstein
02-20-2011, 11:01 AM
Tengenstein: Math says that it is worth to use Thunderstruck and B&T on single targets if you are already talented for it. (I did not do the math myself and don't know even where to look for it, but I trust Kojiyama for this.)

The thing you don't think about is, that you would have to use TC 2/3 of the time, anyway, to keep up the TC debuff. Rend needs only to be applied once. So it's actually one TC and one Shockwave every Shockwave CD. The Thunderstruck Schockwave hits quite hard. Devastate is a very bad ability that also scales bad with AP.

Overall it's a slight increase in dmg and threat to use it if you are talented for it. (You can get better results for single targets if you take another talent-build, but if you have only one prot spec, one may want to have it for all the trash, and multi-mob boss encounters.)

I do talent for it, i'm simply pulling my numbers from Wartotems sheet. My (hazy) understanding of Koji's math was a conclusion that its okay to use it on single targets if therers less than 6seconds left on rend; Thunderstruck is not something we should purposfully stack on single targets

I'm also not saying us Dev in the last GCD of the cycle, its just that Dev, as you rightly point out is one of our worst threat moves, and thus in my knapkin example, if Dev beats its for threat, pretty much everything else probably does too (concussion blow, Heroic throw).

Thunderclap only needs to be used twice per minute to keep TC up, and 4 times per minute to keep rend up. Also recall that with the war academy change Devastate is only slightly behind rend in terms of Threat if you don't have the +30% bleed damage buff. Cllipping it near the beginning is gimping the threat from rend, its only gonna tick 3 times in in the 4 gcd meaning cycle thus you only get 50%ish of the ticks. To maximise threat from BnT you want to clip rend as little as possible.

But hey, i could be wrong, and at the end of the day, i doubt either of us is struggling for threat.

praetoria
02-20-2011, 11:40 AM
Hey,

The first question i have is, are you in a max single target TPS spec?

for single target, you may want to consider droping blood and thunder and specing full incite. Ive had very little trouble spamming HS most of the time.. usually every 3rd or 4th gcd ill have to skip HS for rage, and using that base theory, i havent become rage starved.

the second thing ive noticed is, your glyphed for cleave. Id drop that glyph and pick on glyph on shockwave.

The second question I would have is in reguards to your spec, but thats more or less been covered above. consider that without B&T you will be applying rend manually. On the pull, I usually apply rend right after my shield block buff drops off. so the pull looks somthing like this.

charge (heroic throw mid charge)-shield block-shield slam- rev- dev+hs- shield slam- devx2- rend + hs ... and then into your normal rotation.

my final suggestion would be to pre pot a rage pot. (60str + rage on the pull) It allows you to have a 100% full rage bar at the start of you to have a 100% full rage bar at the start of your rotation.


the last 2 things you may want to consider are slightly less popular, but arguably as effective.

first, look at your hit and expertise. if your having threat problems after trying all that is mentioned above, the difference between 1% hit and 3% hit is fairly large. the same holds true for expertise around 18-20.

finally, if your really confident in your ability to be creative, prior to charge, go into arms stance and pop retailiation, then back to def stance, and go about your pull. retailiation lasts up to 12 seconds so usually i get off 3-4 countier attacks. each attack work out to be about 3500 damage, so its almost as if your adding an additional dev in the first few seconds of the fight.

I hope this was helpfull :D

Katzazi
02-20-2011, 03:42 PM
Thunderclap only needs to be used twice per minute to keep TC up, and 4 times per minute to keep rend up. Also recall that with the war academy change Devastate is only slightly behind rend in terms of Threat if you don't have the +30% bleed damage buff. Cllipping it near the beginning is gimping the threat from rend, its only gonna tick 3 times in in the 4 gcd meaning cycle thus you only get 50%ish of the ticks. To maximise threat from BnT you want to clip rend as little as possible.

But you don't want to apply Rend manually again (it's better to refresh it with TC than to let it drop and refresh it with Rend again) and you don't want to wait with SS or Revenge (if speced into Imp Rev as the OP is) either for single targets.

As I said I did not do the math for myself because I just don't have any problems threat or dmg wise and because my spec is not optimized for them neither. But my understanding of Koji's math is that IF you are speced into it, it's a little dmg/threat increas to use them even on single target encounters. So to increase dmg and threat with a spec that has both B&T and Thunderstruck, it's optimal to use both (TC ans Shockwave) more or less on CD without interfering with your base rotation too much and without using Shockwave before the 3rd TC (beside of the first one). [However there ARE better specs for single target dps/threat for prot warriors. But many tanks with only one spec have both talents.]

Zarc
02-22-2011, 08:22 PM
Thanks heaps katzazi, already a big improvement.