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taconight
02-13-2011, 11:30 AM
Hello,

Just came back and did a ton of normal runs to get all of my gear over 333 anyways, I am having a really difficult time as a paladin tank with some things.

Aoe seems really difficult. I run in with avengers, consecrate, judgement, shield of the righteous spam. Am i doing it right. 1. im out of mana, 2. in heroics i can't seem to pull without breaking cc or i go in and i only hit maybe 2 out of the 4 mobs with shield of the righteous.

my pulls are terrible on aoe pulls which is like 90% of the trash. Boss fights i dont have a problem with but everything else has been really rough.

heroic lfd is painful and i'd like to at least be the best i can.

Selene
02-13-2011, 12:07 PM
An Armory Link and specific examples would help.
Also are you using CC? CC is extremely important for Heroics, especially when you first start doing them.

Marish
02-13-2011, 12:14 PM
I am not an expert in paladin tanking, but I have been tanking a lot lately and can maybe give some advice.

Consecration is expensive. If you're running out of mana try not to use it for small groups. Holy Wrath is some good group AoE and costs a lot less.

As for breaking CC, Hammer of the Righeous (our AoE equivalent to Crusader Strike, which I'm assuming you meant) is an 8yd AoE and will not care about CC. You need to pull and tank away from any CC, which usually means having the CC start the pull (hunter trap, sheep, etc). Avenger's Shield WILL avoid CC targets, so once they're in place you can use it to hit the remaining targets as they come back to you. Then do what you said: HotR alternating with Judgement (to keep mana up), Holy Wrath, and Avenger's Shield.

Also I dunno if you do this, but marking targets for First Kill, Second Kill, etc and telling the DPS what they mean also helps keep the secondary targets on you and not the DPS. If they don't follow those marks I say let them die: it's the only way they'll learn :D

Dedic
02-13-2011, 01:14 PM
1. Forget you have consecrate. Don't talent for it, don't glyph for it. Blizz essentially took it away. We are nerfadins, after all...

2. What the previous post says.

Drmarten
02-14-2011, 05:10 AM
I don't know if I have just been the most lucky tankadin in the world, but since I started tanking in Cata I found that Avenger's Shield does indeed concider CC. When CC is up and i use Avenger's Shield it never hits the CC.

The only way I break CC is if i run straight into the group and use Holy Wrath or HotR, that will break the CC but I'm pretty sure Avenger's Shield won't:)

As I said, it might just be some unbelievable luck on my side..But who knows:D

Selene
02-14-2011, 06:12 AM
Avenger's Shield DOES NOT BREAK CC, unless you are targeting the CC Target as the first strike for the Avenger's Shield.

sifuedition
02-14-2011, 06:19 AM
Also, it's important to remember that you don't need to hit everything where it stands and rush to it. My cc'ers start the pull and step behind me. I wait for everything to come to me first and AS as they get close. Hammer them next followed by holy wrath and they're mine.

The only time I put an AS near the cc is if a caster is left uncontrolled. I know it doesn't break cc but if I don't need to use it that close, I don't.

Neongreen
02-14-2011, 12:07 PM
Another thought, when AE tanking, After your dps have started the pull with a CC pop your divine plea for a 3 stack of HP, hit your Inq and start your Hammer / AS / Judge spam. That extra bit of holy damage does worlds for your threat right off the start, much more than Conc could. I also use Inq on every Hp stack after that for the extra damage, i personally find it almost useless to use SotR on trash pulls unless your loosing threat. Works for me, hope it helps you :)

dagimp007
02-14-2011, 12:23 PM
Pally AOE tanking is basaclly gone, its easier for other tanks to do it.

as for pulls you have to just be smart on what u CC think of your bounce and think of what will stay in one spot(hunter mobs), also u can try to time the pull with the cc so there cc hits a second after you pull type thing... its all comes with time, old players will get it quicker but WOTLK players are learning something fairly new,honestly.


make sure u mark a kill order and tell your group to single target Skull down first then they can aoe, this way as u are doing all your aoe by the time skull dies u should be set.


as for mana use judgment when ever it is up, the only time i ever run out of mana is when i dont even think about using judgment and i add consecration in my rotation (i have it speced into it with 1 point..


as for the person claiming forget about consecration, it is still a good idea to toss in at the start of an aoe pull... most top Tankadins have 2 specs an aoe tanking spec and a single target tanking spec, then main difference is they are using consecration in there aoe pulls

Contravene
02-15-2011, 03:32 PM
What about Glyph of Focused shield? I was having so many problems with my bounces going almost completely behind me that I glyph'd into this.. Same problem, major complaints.. Now I don't get the complaints but I fight for AOE threat.

sifuedition
02-15-2011, 04:00 PM
Focused shield will make aoe worse as you will hit one ttarget only. When the shield goes zipping across the screen it is because you missed. That happens occassionally as tanks are not focusing on hit or expertise.

In wrath of the lich king, pally threat was so good that if there were four mobs, dps could all be on a different target and none on your target and you would still usually hold aggro. That is no longer true for any tank. Pally or dk is still the best aoe tank but warriors, and to some degree, bears have closed the gap a little.

Make sure you mark a kill order. Make sure you can see party targets. I will bet most times you lose threat, someone is not on your target.

If that is not the case:
1. Use seal of truth
2. Rotation should be either crusader strike or hammer of righteouness EVERY second ability. Fill in between with whatever is not on cd. I would start by not using consecrate, however. You can add that back in if you want after you get everything else ironed out.
3. Are you gearing properly?
4. If you see your avengers shield miss on the pull, use avenging wrath to make up the threat quickly and be ready to taunt if you need to.
5. Get the addon TidyPlates and the plugin for it TidyPlates:ThreatPlates. You will see your aggro by the size and color of the mob's name plate to help predict when you are about to lose threat on a mob but before you actually lose it.

Selene
02-15-2011, 04:05 PM
Pally AOE tanking is basaclly gone, its easier for other tanks to do it.


I have to disagree on that. I find AoE tanking to be way easier with my Pally than my DK.

Fetzie
02-16-2011, 10:19 AM
When doing a big trash pull (the first groups in bastion for example):

divine plea
avenging wrath
Inquisition
avenger's shield
judgement on a target that didn't get an AS jump
HotR
Consecrate
HotR
holy wrath
HotR
judge for the mana and to not clip the last second of Inq
Inquisition
HotR
Avenger's shield
etc.

This also works for groups on mobs in heroic instances (e.g. the 4 casters or the geists + zombies in SFK). If I have less than 25k dps I am a sad bunny :<

Contravene
02-16-2011, 01:25 PM
Thanks for the points on focused shield, going to get rid of it.

Dedic
02-16-2011, 01:31 PM
Just had to mention this cuz the thread mentions dps not attacking the right mob:

My favorite heroic pug was one when we pugged a healer and after the first pull, he goes "assist off the fu**ing tank people!" That made me smile.

Contravene
02-18-2011, 03:12 PM
Does anyone else pop Divine Plea/Inq again during the fight too, it seems productive but I am not sure. If Divine Plea goes off cool down I treat it as a guaranteed HoPo, so I skip CS/SoTR for it on that round.

Is anyone combining Divine Plea and Inquisition into a single macro? Currently I combine nothing together into a macro but does anything combine practicality into one button? I do use Inq when divine plea is on cool down, but it shouldn't matter to try and fire it again.

Kokkis
02-18-2011, 11:06 PM
I only use divine plea on a boss fight and what i do is i work up to 3 Holy Power and then i pop avenger shield/Inq/Divine plea in that order. And i hope i have Sacred Shield proc'd as well which will give me like a 40k SotR which helps with threat at the start and i never lose agro after i pop that, and if anyone gets close i just throw Salvation on them. But no i don't have them macro'd together but it could be done.

Doc309
02-19-2011, 05:07 AM
@kokkis: half of what you have said in the thread makes NO SENSE-

"use HotR facing AWAY from the CC so have your back towards the CC'd targets" - WRONG- HotR is a 8 yd radius, not a frontal cone like Warrior's shockwave.

"what i do is i work up to 3 Holy Power and then i pop avenger shield/Inq/Divine plea in that order." - once you have 3 holy power SPEND IT. if you hit inquisition first, AS will be buffed by 30%. it is holy damage...

"And i hope i have Sacred Shield proc'd as well which will give me like a 40k SotR " Sacred Shield is a fourth tier RET talent, (which is a damage absorb) no way a prot pally can get there. Holy Shield (the prot talent) adds 10% to the damage mitigation of a shield block. neither of which in any way buffs SotR.

"And some ppl say use Inquisition i personally don't with my Holy Power i use either WoG or SoR." Inquisition buffs holy damage by 30%, HotR = holy damage, holy wrath = holy damage, consecrate = holy damage, AS = holy damage, judgement = holy damage, what's not to love?

Divine plea- with 3/3 in the "shield of the templar" talent, grants 3 holy power instantly. that is its main benefit. what you use it on depends on the situation. need snap aggro on a single target? DP SotR. need a little more AoE aggro? DP inquisition. need some emergency heals? DP WoG (yes i know that divine plea reduces healing done by 50%, but with other talents... and as an emergency heal...)

please do some homework before offering advice. or at least read the spell tooltips.

Doc

Fetzie
02-19-2011, 09:19 AM
@kokkis: half of what you have said in the thread makes NO SENSE-

"use HotR facing AWAY from the CC so have your back towards the CC'd targets" - WRONG- HotR is a 8 yd radius, not a frontal cone like Warrior's shockwave.

correct


"what i do is i work up to 3 Holy Power and then i pop avenger shield/Inq/Divine plea in that order." - once you have 3 holy power SPEND IT. if you hit inquisition first, AS will be buffed by 30%. it is holy damage...

when you have 3 HoPo spend it...on ShoR, unless you are tanking a large amount of mobs or pulling the boss.


"And i hope i have Sacred Shield proc'd as well which will give me like a 40k SotR " Sacred Shield is a fourth tier RET talent, (which is a damage absorb) no way a prot pally can get there. Holy Shield (the prot talent) adds 10% to the damage mitigation of a shield block. neither of which in any way buffs SotR.

I think he meant sacred duty :)


"And some ppl say use Inquisition i personally don't with my Holy Power i use either WoG or SoR." Inquisition buffs holy damage by 30%, HotR = holy damage, holy wrath = holy damage, consecrate = holy damage, AS = holy damage, judgement = holy damage, what's not to love?

with the changes to HoPo generation it is better to invest HoPo in ShoR or WoG. Before the patch the "Inq if SD not proc else ShoR" rotation generated slightly more tps, however now that you can never guarantee to have the 3 HoPo it is probably better to simply use ShoR/WoG.


Divine plea- with 3/3 in the "shield of the templar" talent, grants 3 holy power instantly. that is its main benefit. what you use it on depends on the situation. need snap aggro on a single target? DP SotR. need a little more AoE aggro? DP inquisition. need some emergency heals? DP WoG (yes i know that divine plea reduces healing done by 50%, but with other talents... and as an emergency heal...)


/cancelaura Divine Plea
/cast World of Glory

Doc309
02-19-2011, 09:48 AM
Pyrea
you may be right about sacred duty :)
But that procs off of judgement. which he never even mentioned. ( but i hope that it can be assumed that it is part of his building 3 Holy Power....)

and thank you for the cancel aura idea, going to macro that into my WoG right now :)

Doc

Fetzie
02-19-2011, 09:53 AM
It is a pretty fair assumption that judgement is being cast on cooldown :)

Doc309
02-19-2011, 09:54 AM
i hope so :)
but with so many others things flat out wrong with his posts?????

:)

ácerimmer
02-19-2011, 04:22 PM
i know ill probs get some stick for this. but have you tried cc pulls. you let your cc pull the mobs. then use the avengers on the mobs that are coming toward you. (ideally casters should have been cc'd if not try to make sure the cc is at least 3 mobs away from the caster)
this is a good way to pull especially if most of the mobs are melee ones.
if your on a boss then use crusader strike if there is no adds u need to kite/tank/aggro. this will generate ur threat well and also give u a single target damage increase.
consecration should only really be used if theres a large amount of mobs that u need to aggro. but go careful of it breaking any cc
there is a talent to reduce its mana cost by 80%

Kokkis
02-19-2011, 09:29 PM
Ok about the HotR i never have problems breaking CC i was attempting to offer help and i had the skill wrong i meant sacred duty, and the reason i don't use Inq is because i use SotR and imo the extra holy damage isnt as good as using SotR but thats my opinion and i have 0 problems holding agro once again its just what i perfer. And since Inq doesnt last as long as wings i pop wings first then Inq... So after getting 3 holy power then using Wings/Inq/DP (in that order) i then also have an instant 3 holy power SotR with wings and Inq both still on which gives me more threat then using Wings/DP/Inq starting off the fight.

Contravene
03-09-2011, 03:57 PM
/cancelaura Divine Plea
/cast World of Glory

This is brilliant

Riz
03-10-2011, 11:26 AM
I have to disagree on that. I find AoE tanking to be way easier with my Pally than my DK.

100% agree

KEEPING IN MIND, the OP was asking about aoe tanking.....trash...Multiple target tanking...mmk..
I have zero problems aoe tanking on Pally...However im not following this craze to use WoG in ANY part of my rotation...i dont spec into WoG whatsoever! "Eternal Glory" & "Guarded by the Light" i think are ridiculus talents and personnally cant stand seeing the Tankadins pop a wog every chance they get...The heal is just so minor its really little to no help, and any "shield" youd get from the overhealingwoul;d be just as small...Not to mention its only a shield forthe "over healed" portion of the WoG heal...If youve had someone tell you this was a good way to go, id drop them asap..

I see a few lists here on how to start a pull, id just like to add one thing..When popping ur DP, wings, inq> i cast exorcism>aveng shield..Aveng Shield is in flight as ur Exorc is landing, and this is an insane amount of threat...even without the Aveng Wrath>DP/Inq, i always pull with this method if the pull IS NOT being started with CC ofcourse...

I also agree with Dagim using Req every hp dump over SotR(unless im on a single target ofcourse)..I just find the extra 30% increase to all holy dmg to be far more useful...(Most (if not all) Paladin abilities are, or have Holy power)

PS: Theres a glyph to reduce cons mana cost by 80% if its THAT much problem for you..(i hope your judging EVERY cd,as this is our main means of mana regen in combat)
Holy Wrath shares dmg with all targets in range...More targets=less dmg per target..

Edit: I find aoe tanking to be slightly harder on my Warr, than my Dk XD

Contravene
03-10-2011, 11:53 AM
acerimmer,

DPS does pull CC this is a common practice so if you pug be prepared for it.. That is their job because you are not ranged.. If you run the group of course it is an agreed upon course of action. Most good DPS will target through you to pull i.e. they will pull your target.

Riz
WoG healing is very very difficult to pull off it takes a clear head and quick decision making.. It can be used very very effectively.. This is why it will be nerf'd and honestly I think Blizzard wants "survivalist" to go away.. What do they call it selfless healer on EJ? I think Blizzard wants to do away with this and for use to focus on damage.. So practicing this method is probably futile.

Riz
03-10-2011, 12:15 PM
Riz
WoG healing is very very difficult to pull off it takes a clear head and quick decision making.. It can be used very very effectively.. This is why it will be nerf'd and honestly I think Blizzard wants "survivalist" to go away.. What do they call it selfless healer on EJ? I think Blizzard wants to do away with this and for use to focus on damage.. So practicing this method is probably futile.

Ofcourse i dont mean theres no time for us to use our heals..We're Paladins, thats what we do..I was refferring to the tankadins using WoG EVERY 3/6 Hp..If your having to heal, theres already something wrong, or your topped off and want that shield...I just find theres far too many better tools to use, than to waiste 2-5 talent points to make this happen..We have several means of healing and dmg mitigation that i find far superior..

Heals- (if really neccesary Seal of Insight, Lay on Hands, Gift of Naaru (Draenei racial, 20% HP)
Shields/Mitigation- Divine Shield, Divine Guardian, Ardent Defender, trinkets,etc...

Basically its, as it usually is, a playstyle prefference...While im VERY big on making the healers job as easy as possible, and reducing anyone, in my raid, incoming dmg as little as possible..(ive always tanked this way) I do not feel i should do their part for them when theres something that will benefit the tank more...I may be wording this wrong, i just mean Inquisition or SotR i think is the way to go in terms of spending your Holy Power...

Contravene
03-10-2011, 01:46 PM
Your points are well taken.. For me it came to this because my counter part (shamy healer) wasn't healing exceptionally well for a period of time from lack of gear and the learning curve to not use large heals always.. On top of that I had 2 melee DPS in my crew with no ranged to swap in.. So I helped out with WoG healing and we started taking down roics and of course this got us the healers gear along with her nice new confidence.. Now she heals me so damn good it is a bit of a mute point so I am moving to mitigation slowly but slowly. :P