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dombobb
02-11-2011, 09:11 AM
Hi everyone,
Iím a prot pally using SoI most of the time. Yesterday I had a rough time on agro against the DPS of my grp. Basically, I get reached in no times by the top 2DPS and I donít know why. I must be doing something wrong with my rotation or something else. After raid yesterday I changed a couple of glyph and my specs to focus more on single target instead of AoE pull (that helped a lot of what I saw in a Heroics afterwards). But still my GM is telling me I should be using SoT instead of SoI but I get oom so quickly when using SoT that my treat isnít building at all. I would like to know if there is a rotation I should do? Right now Iím just throwing out anything that is available to build as much dps/threat possible. With my PP Iím certainly using WoG to help healer a little. If any of you have suggestions on build and rotation you can check out my profile on armory.

Alamut/Gorefiend (US)/ oxyd

I know thereís still a couple of piece I need to get so donít be rude on the gear, just check glyph, talent tree give me your opinion.

Thanks!

P.S. Sorry for the grammar and spelling mistakes Iím French Canadian! ^^

klausi
02-11-2011, 09:56 AM
Use SoT/SotR for a decent aggro lead and don't bother with using consecration during this time. If the lead is big enough just swap to SoI + WoG spam to help smooth out damage.

Dedic
02-11-2011, 11:48 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again... It wasn't too long ago that DPS was supposed to watch omen and manage their threat. Since the huge jump in DPS, everybody wants to top the Recount DPS list and then they blame the tank when he can't hold agro. As a tank, I call shenanigans!

You need to use SoT a bit and ask your healer if it makes you too hard to heal. If it does, tell your DPS to back off or you all will wipe more often. For mana, put judgement higher in your priority list. That's where most of your regen comes from anyway.

This may all be moot with the HoPo nerf/"bugfix" anyway tho. If it turns out we need to drop avoidance/mastery just so we can get reliable CS/HotR hits, we will have to be in SoI just to stay alive. In that case, however, the reduced misses will help threat too.

It's going to be a tightrope walk, but first we just need to find the rope!

sifuedition
02-11-2011, 01:18 PM
I never use SoI and I do not oom or have healer complaints. I believe the trick is three parts:

Consecration is not the threat god people seemed to assume it was. I rarely use it and have no threat problems. It is not good enough from a threat per mana view for me to use more than occassionally. If my mana is full AND I have at least three mobs up AND everything else is in cd, then I might use it.

Judge more. When Grand Crusader decides to proc every other strike on a pull, it is tempting to keep using it. Nothing says you need to. Don't ignore judgement just because there is more than one mob.

Work your first few GCDs on your primary target and your AoE rotation. After that, start tab targeting your strikes. This helps make consecration unnecessary in most of the situations you used to feel it was.

Also, make sure your rotation is correct. Crusader strike every other ability to maximize your WoG use and fill in between with whatever is off cd, while not skipping too many judgements.

Vigilant
02-11-2011, 06:30 PM
Good advice above. I just want to add that nothing will make up for DPS hauling off and nuking any random mob in the pull, which 75% of them still seem dead set on doing. If you don't feel like you're at a place where you can chain pull and AoE zerg Wrath-style, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. You're the tank, you set the pace, and if that means that you want to mark 1st and 2nd kill, and mobs you want to see CC'd by respective members, have at it. If people feel like griping and complaining, let them, or let them leave and sit in queue if they want. Its no skin off your back. You do whatever it takes to make the run as smooth as possible.

For there record, I always run with Seal of Insight up, and a WoG-first / threat-second build, just because you never know what kind of healer you're going to get, and I love being able to heal myself through almost any heroic boss encounter if I have to. All these things considered, no one ever pulls threat off a mob that I am focusing. Really the only time I lose mobs is when a DPS'er (DK usually, it seems) decides to just go balls out, irrespective of what I am targeting. A quick taunt and SotR takes care of that.

Mech
02-15-2011, 11:51 PM
Here is a list of 10 concepts that I follow while tanking on my paladin. This is not me telling you what to door what you NEED to do, but more of an explanation of how I play and what has worked for me. So take this with a grain of salt. I hope it helps.


1. Avenger's Shield - Probably one of our biggest threat builders and since we now have rebuke as our main interrupt we can use this all the time. Just be wary around CC'd targets.

2. Divine Plea - Instant 3 Holy Power + Shield of the Righteous = Amazing threat

3. Inquisition - At 3 Holy Power this is 30% extra Holy damge for 12 seconds. NOTE: Only use your 3 Holy Power on this when there's more than 3-4 mobs to maximize it's effectiveness. You could even use this at 1 or 2 Holy Power just as a quick step to threat. It mirrors how some rogues used to use a 3 combo point Slice and Dice to get their rotation going.

4. Consecration/Holy Wrath - Alone these are very nice threat builders, but combine with a Divine Plea and Inquisition and you'll not only see your threat go up, but your DPS will skyrocket.

5. Shield of the Righteous vs. Word of Glory - SotR is a huge threat builder. Personally I rarely ever use WoG, but depending on your build you may use it more. I would just not use it until I went through 2-3 SotR first just to be sure I have a threat lead.

6. Seal of Truth - This seal puts a DOT on anything you smack so if you were one of them tanks that tab-targeted smacking every target once at least puts that DoT on them. Coupled with the glyph (10 expertise or 300 expertise rating) ALL your hits now have an increased chance of not being dodged or parried

7. Judgment - If you use this everything it's off cooldown you'll always have the Judgments of the Wise buff which returns 30% of your mana to you over 10 seconds.

8. Righteous Defense - This is your new best friend when it comes to tanking. I do not know if you are familiar with writing macros or use addons, but make a keybind for this spell and learn to use this well. Personally I use the addon Clique and bound this spell to my right mouse button so that when I hover over my raid frames and right click, all the threat on that party member comes back my way. Much easier than dropping your target and targeting your raid member then casting this.

9. Hand of Salvation - Otherthan Hand of Reckoning and Righteous Defense, this is another invaluable tool. Unglyphed it's a threat over time removal, but glyphed acts as a second Righteous Defense since you are more than likely the next player on the mobs threat meter. Again I use this with Clique as another mouse over and click function.

10. Macros and Keybinds - You should really get used to making macros and keybinds since a lot of our job takes quick manipulation. It may seem silly to a lot but I use cast sequence macros for my basic rotation to save space on my action bar.

For example: /castsequence reset=target Judgment, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike

Again this may seem silly, but it saves one space on my action bar as well as one less thing I have to think about when in combat. Now all I have to do is push another keybind when both of those spells are on cooldown.

theodisius
02-16-2011, 02:20 AM
As others have said, use SoT (at least early on), don't consecrate much and judge often.

To front load threat, the best opening sequence is:

Divine Plea => Inquisition => Avenging Wrath => Exorcism => Judgement => Avenger Shield

But it sounds from the first post that you do not know the optimal paladin rotation after the pull. It is:

CS-X-CS-X-CS-ShoTR

and repeat

where X is a filler from J, AS, HW and consecration.

Typically it would be:

CS-J-CS-AS (or HW)-CS-ShotR

For AOE, use HotR instead of CS and inquisition instead of ShotR. Where you need extra healing and threat is not an issue, use WoG rather than ShotR.

You can read more about it on maintankadin.com, but the key thing is to prioritise generating holy power generators and only use finishers when you have 3 HoPo.

thenicebigfella
02-16-2011, 04:30 AM
First off for threat matters = Seal of Truth. Only use SoL ONLY if you've gained a safe threat lead on your dps to help your healers. Second off, you should link you profile to give us a look at your toon for any possible issues.

I call this the following my single target Threat Blast combo...

Divine Plea, Avenging Wrath, Avenger's Shield, Judge, Crusador Strike, and lasty Consecration.

With this order in my book by the time you do all of that, you'll have your avengers shield, crusador strike and judge all up again with others on CD - and use that darn avenging wrath every time it's up.

Bladesong
02-16-2011, 06:36 PM
Two quick tips:
1) I took Consecration off my bars about six weeks ago and haven't missed it. The threat you get from using SoT, and the extra expertise that you glyphed for when using it, will more than make up for the loss.
2) Reforge the Parry on your gear into Mastery. Sanctuary gives you mana back from blocking and Reckoning procs extra attacks from blocking.

Mech
02-17-2011, 12:08 AM
Two quick tips:
1) I took Consecration off my bars about six weeks ago and haven't missed it. The threat you get from using SoT, and the extra expertise that you glyphed for when using it, will more than make up for the loss.
2) Reforge the Parry on your gear into Mastery. Sanctuary gives you mana back from blocking and Reckoning procs extra attacks from blocking.

Not using Consecration is like a DK not using Death and Decay, you just do not do that. Consecration should always be used as a filler no matter what. If you just want to barely hold threat at the expense of saving some mana then go for it, but this is a huge liability especially if the paladin is under hit and/or expertise cap. Look at it like this. Can you manage without it? Sure. But Consecration is the icing on the cake when it comes to threat. Combined with Inquistion and Hallowed Ground (if you want to waste talent points for this) and now Consecration hits for a nice amount of constant damage in AoE tanking. I'd have to say that any paladin tank with mana issues is either not using their spells accordingly or does not have their talent points itemized correctly.

As far as reforging parry into mastery? Reforging Parry for mastery is a last option for paladins. Our two best avoidance stats are Parry and Mastery up until you reach the unhittable cap. Dodge is more suitable for reforging before parry since dodge is mostly for Deathknights and not paladins. And when it comes to reforging you should always be reforging to meet the hit and expertise caps then mastery. Save your gem slots and enchants for mastery.

Fetzie
02-17-2011, 01:02 AM
Why is dodge not so good for us? the mana regen from sanctuary does not procc from parries, only from blocks and dodges and parry has no inherant advantage over dodge. They both function in exactly the same way and have exactly the same DR equation.

Also, mastery is the best stat that you can reforge to. I have left a bit of hit and expertise on my gear to stabilise my HoPo generation, but even so, if an item has no mastery on it, you should be reforging so that it does. If you end up reforging parry or dodge to mastery, so be it.

Cons costs over half our mana pool. You cannot afford to use it more than once every minute or so or else you risk running low, and there are other spells which are more useful such as divine radiance (which probably generates more threat due to the healing it does as well as healing your party/raid.

Lumines
02-17-2011, 07:44 AM
I don't know where to start with the misinformation in this thread ("parry is more for DKs"? Seriously?) but I want to address this clanger at least:



But it sounds from the first post that you do not know the optimal paladin rotation after the pull. It is:

CS-X-CS-X-CS-X-ShoTR

and repeat

where X is a filler from J, AS, HW and consecration.

Typically it would be:

CS-J-CS-AS-CS-HW-ShotR


That is not the optimal rotation. It is CS-X-CS-X-CS-ShotR. Not -CS-X-ShotR. Doing what's written above pushes back ShotR for the sake of a lower threat ability and has you sitting on CS for 1.5s after it's on cooldown. Not good.

Jtree
02-17-2011, 02:30 PM
But it sounds from the first post that you do not know the optimal paladin rotation after the pull. It is:

CS-X-CS-X-CS-X-ShoTR

and repeat

where X is a filler from J, AS, HW and consecration.

Typically it would be:

CS-J-CS-AS-CS-HW-ShotR


Let me fix that rotation:
CS-J-CS-AS-CS-ShotR
CS-J-CS-HW-CS-ShotR

This would be the standard, assuming no CS misses. It WAS the standard, and ran like clockwork, before the HP "bugfix" nerf. At this point, I've reintroduced consecration to bosses, on the occasions were everything else is on CD and I'm not at 3 HP.



As far as reforging parry into mastery? Reforging Parry for mastery is a last option for paladins. Our two best avoidance stats are Parry and Mastery up until you reach the unhittable cap. Dodge is more suitable for reforging before parry since dodge is mostly for Deathknights and not paladins. And when it comes to reforging you should always be reforging to meet the hit and expertise caps then mastery. Save your gem slots and enchants for mastery.

The math done by the serious theory crafters on maintankadin suggest keeping your parry 1% higher than your dodge.

And one should never be reforging, gemming, or enchanting for hit or expertise.

Bladesong
02-17-2011, 03:05 PM
If you just want to barely hold threat at the expense of saving some mana then go for it, but this is a huge liability especially if the paladin is under hit and/or expertise cap.

So, two things here. First, thanks to vengeance, tank threat is so far ahead of the dps that on a tank and spank fight a paladin can use WoG instead of their hardest hitting ability SotR and they can use SoI instead of SoT. Consecrate isn't the icing, it's the sprinkles - completely superfluous :p Second, the OP specifically stated that he was forced into using SoI because he was running out of mana. Consecrate eats up a huge chunk of mana for a minor increase in threat. Conversely, the OP could stop using Consecrate and then go back to using SoT, giving him/her a big jump in threat.


As far as reforging parry into mastery? Reforging Parry for mastery is a last option for paladins. Our two best avoidance stats are Parry and Mastery up until you reach the unhittable cap. Dodge is more suitable for reforging before parry since dodge is mostly for Deathknights and not paladins. And when it comes to reforging you should always be reforging to meet the hit and expertise caps then mastery. Save your gem slots and enchants for mastery.

Out of curiosity, where are you getting your information? What you have written has some :D some :eek: and some :confused::confused::confused: Others have already pointed out the specific errors.

theodisius
02-19-2011, 05:55 PM
It is CS-X-CS-X-CS-ShotR. Not -CS-X-ShotR.

Yeah, my bad - that was a typo. Of course, I don't sit around with 3 holy power.

Oblisk
02-21-2011, 09:46 AM
Might add to use Hand of Salvation for someone who keeps pulling threat. Most common flaw in most pallies today is they have no clue when to use their hands (bar protection).

Drizzitd
02-23-2011, 07:53 PM
Lol, hit yur dps with a Bop (hand of protection) they will get the message...lmfao

Tique
02-24-2011, 02:24 AM
before 4.06 i used SoI very rarely now never i believe the +10 expertise from glyphed SoT is close enough for selfheal (asuming you WoG with your holy power of course)
if you use SoI for mana return then your doing something wrong - probably using too much cons.
i personally removed cons from my bars since untalented (and why would you talent it) it eats into your ability to use holy radiance.

Arjac
03-01-2011, 03:24 PM
Most of these guys have pretty correct, with a couple I don't agree with. Just before the pull set off Divine Plea (free 3 HoPo) and pull with Avenger's Shield. As soon as the boss is in melee, punch it in the face with Shield of the Righteous then start your regular 'rotation' priority order. Crusader Strike, Judgement, CS, Avenger's Shield/Holy Wrath, CS, SotR. Once Vengence kicks in you'll be hitting harder and your threat levels should be beyond your highest DPSers, making Word of Glory a better use of you 3 HoPo to help out on heals and survivability. Judgement will help you with your mana regen (I've never had a problem personally while using SoTruth unless hammering it out on training dummies with no raid mechanics to move around with). Avenger's Shield has a higher priority than Holy Wrath, but sometimes it just doesn't proc for you to be using it again 12 seconds later (I'm only talented 1/2 Grand Crusader).

A big thing I did in my guild is set up a thread in my guild forums to state to the DPS "I am not hit capped, I may miss on the pull. Do not go all out for about 6 seconds once the boss is in place" type thing. You can tell them that with the current tier/gear it's hard to be hit/exp capped and survive because of healer mana and you would rather avoid/mitigate damage over stronger DPS (as what tanks are built for).

As far as Consecration, I also took it off my bars/rotation and unglyphed it. It sucks at times in Heroic pulls, but hopefully you have CCs out and you have Hammer of Righteousness and Holy Wrath to gather everything while marking priority mobs. Consecration is a mana drain and isn't that much of a DPS boost to be worth it for me. But, that's a play style one would have to get used to.

I think this thread got into reforging/gemming, so my quick two cents: My remaining blues I put (in order) haste>crit>parry>dodge>mastery into hit to help out. As for my 359s, I've reforged (if possible) parry to mastery or parry to dodge, but left my dodge and mastery pieces alone. I've been lucky enough to recieve pieces with expertise and hit to help those stats, but am currently working on my avoidance rating. As for gems (I've switched 3 times) but currently parry/stam for reds, mastery/stam for blues, straight mastery for yellows and pure stamina for prismatic. Others may disagree with my choices, but another of the personal play style options that can be adjusted.

My only authority behind my tips that may help is being 8/12 as a main tank in a 25-man semi-hardcore/casual progression guild. Hope this helps \o/

Arjac|Cenarius(US)

Contravene
03-01-2011, 05:21 PM
This threat thread is pretty handy.. Seems like Consecreate should be in there at leaast within buttons reach.. I do use Cons but you have to be oh so careful to follow with judgement.

Link Paladin Threat Values "Cata"
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?73705-Paladin-Threat-Values-%28Cataclysm%29

Mech
03-11-2011, 05:36 AM
And one should never be reforging, gemming, or enchanting for hit or expertise.


You only REFORGE for this stats. Hit is important for two reasons. No misses = dps = threat. And more importantly, a Crusader Strike miss = NO HoPo. As of 4.0.6 you do not get HoPo for misses anymore so capping this is important. Also expertise is important to atleast the 26 rating so that you can not be dodged.

Any tank, no matter what class, that refuses to look into their Hit and Expertise caps are probably going to have threat issues especially early in the fight when you have little to no vengeance. If you cap them, like I have on my pally, no one will ever pull off you. Remember it's not just your job to take the hits the other players can't, it's also about holding threat from beginning to end.

Buffalowings
03-11-2011, 06:06 AM
You only REFORGE for this stats. Hit is important for two reasons. No misses = dps = threat. And more importantly, a Crusader Strike miss = NO HoPo. As of 4.0.6 you do not get HoPo for misses anymore so capping this is important. Also expertise is important to atleast the 26 rating so that you can not be dodged.

You could use this as a last resort when you are actually having problems with threat. Unless this is the case why would you?

Most tank items have Mastery/Dodge or parry so you suggest actualy reforging away from defensive stats just too gain a little more threat seems silly. Also, Prot paladins have a + 8% hit with spells so If throwing in 1 Avengers schield early in the fight would give you a big lead on the dps.

robotronic
03-11-2011, 07:11 AM
when it comes to reforging ....
AVOIDANCE > HIT
i believe the motto for prot pallies is as long as your avoidance is under cap , stay as close to 0 hit as possible
meaning you can reforge hit away to gain avoidance

my toon sits at 2% hit (w/o shaman doo hickey) and i never ... NEVAR loose threat whether its boss pulls or multi target encounters
it just doesnt happen

of course once your avoidace is good hit wont hurt . and if you are a key interrupter say for transition phase on nefarion than hit would be awesome but most of the time your not , at least your dps should be hit capped to interrupt .

with that being said dont sit there and get owned by a boss cause your hit capped , make sure your avoidances are where they should be before even worrying about being hit capped.

and if you still think "i" am wrong armory the pally tank for paragon and look at his hit . than argue with him and tell him he is wrong.

Doc309
03-11-2011, 07:53 AM
You only REFORGE for this stats. Hit is important for two reasons. No misses = dps = threat. And more importantly, a Crusader Strike miss = NO HoPo. As of 4.0.6 you do not get HoPo for misses anymore so capping this is important. Also expertise is important to atleast the 26 rating so that you can not be dodged.

Any tank, no matter what class, that refuses to look into their Hit and Expertise caps are probably going to have threat issues especially early in the fight when you have little to no vengeance. If you cap them, like I have on my pally, no one will ever pull off you. Remember it's not just your job to take the hits the other players can't, it's also about holding threat from beginning to end.

This is just wrong.
Not just my opinion. Maintankadin, EJ, and most posters on this site agree.
Yes it got harder when a CS strike miss began to mean no HolyPower... but kittens die every time someone posts their personal opinion as the "only" thing to do.
Most number crunchers agree, that hit/expertise should be considered after you have complete Combat Table Coverage. ie 102.4% combined miss, dodge, parry and block. And i'm not sure if this is possible in the current tier of gear. ( with the possible exception, if you are required to interrupt.)
Yes i'm sure your threat is great. but i am also sure that you are harder to heal than a pally that reforges from hit/expertise to get better CTC.

Mech
03-11-2011, 08:28 AM
... but kittens die every time someone posts their personal opinion as the "only" thing to do.

Where did I express that what I post is the "only thing to do" and not just my opinion based on my personal experiences and play style? FACT: People that assume every post made is a fact are completely incompetent and should have their keyboard removed from them.


Most number crunchers agree, that hit/expertise should be considered after you have complete Combat Table Coverage. ie 102.4% combined miss, dodge, parry and block. And i'm not sure if this is possible in the current tier of gear. ( with the possible exception, if you are required to interrupt.)

I am almost certain hard capping this is pretty difficult to do. Soft capping I found is not.


Yes i'm sure your threat is great. but i am also sure that you are harder to heal than a pally that reforges from hit/expertise to get better CTC.

I'm not that hard to heal at all. With capping hit and soft capping expertise I'm still below uncrittable, but I'm no issue for any healer. Harder to heal than a meat shield? Possibly, but again still nowhere near an issue for any competent healer.


when it comes to reforging ....
AVOIDANCE > HIT

Yes. When I said reforge for Hit I was implying that IF you want/need it, then reforge for it. NEVER gem or enchant for it.


and if you still think "i" am wrong armory the pally tank for paragon and look at his hit . than argue with him and tell him he is wrong.

There is no cookie cutter way to play. I offer suggestions and lend my opinion to anyone asking for a "how to". In this case, the original poster (if I remember correctly) was asking for tips on threat. FACT: Increasing Hit and Expertise increases threat generation. OPINION: Everyone should get as close to hit and expertise soft capped as possible. If you can get away with 2% hit, I'm glad for you. Is 8% hit required? No. And I never said it was required.

Buffalowings
03-11-2011, 08:40 AM
Yes. When I said reforge for Hit I was implying that IF you want/need it, then reforge for it. NEVER gem or enchant for it.

What is the difference If you reforge 20 dodge into 20 hit or gem 20 hit instead of 20 dodge? *Hint* There isn't any!

But on a more serious note. You make a valid point saying if you have issues with threat you should get more Hit rating / Exp. This should be the last step too take tho. You should first be looking at when and how the issue occurs.

When tanking multiple mobs mark a kill order (Skull > X > Star for example) and make sure they keep this kill order.
I actualy have party targets enabled when pugging HC's. When some dps decides to ignore my markings I ask them nicely to take over my targets or just let them die in piece (After telling the healer, no need to lose mana over them: Ressing is cheaper).

Almost no dps can manage to get agro over a target being focussed by a good tank (even without hit rating).

Mech
03-11-2011, 09:10 AM
What is the difference If you reforge 20 dodge into 20 hit or gem 20 hit instead of 20 dodge? *Hint* There isn't any!

Only that you just wasted a gem slot to dodge or hit that should of gone to mastery. All our gear should have mastery already on it, so reforging to hit isn't as bad. I mean you could also reforge to expertise or parry/dodge (if either are missing on that item).


You make a valid point saying if you have issues with threat you should get more Hit rating / Exp. This should be the last step too take tho. You should first be looking at when and how the issue occurs.

Perhaps this is the quick fix if you can manage to know when your dps is popping their cd's or whatever.


When tanking multiple mobs mark a kill order (Skull > X > Star for example) and make sure they keep this kill order.
I actualy have party targets enabled when pugging HC's. When some dps decides to ignore my markings I ask them nicely to take over my targets or just let them die in piece (After telling the healer, no need to lose mana over them: Ressing is cheaper).

A good technique if you have issues holding AoE threat. I used to do this when I had these issues. Now it's just too much time to set a kill order. I just pull a pack and maintain an AoE rotation.


Almost no dps can manage to get agro over a target being focussed by a good tank (even without hit rating).

You would think, but I manage to pull off tanks real easy when I pop my cd's on my fury warrior. A matter of fact the only troubles I've ever had were with Fury warriors, Death knights, and Feral Druids. They're burst damage can be so insane.

Doc309
03-11-2011, 09:48 AM
an ignorant person just doesn't know the truth.
a stupid person does not care what the truth is.

theckhd
03-11-2011, 11:31 AM
You would think, but I manage to pull off tanks real easy when I pop my cd's on my fury warrior. A matter of fact the only troubles I've ever had were with Fury warriors, Death knights, and Feral Druids. They're burst damage can be so insane.

Then you need better tanks. :P

For reference, I run with around 1% hit and 3 expertise from my racial bonus. On many heroic encounters I use SoI the whole time. I WoG liberally. And at no point do I have trouble with threat, even against DPS players that frequently rank on WoL.

If you have a TotT and MD during the pull to smooth the first 30 seconds, Vengeance should take over and do the majority of the work for you past that point. The first 30 seconds are all about having a strong opening sequence (DP-Inq-Exo-J-AS-939) and making sure you're hitting buttons.

Most of the threat issues that we see paladins complain about can be traced back to rotational issues - either not using fillers effectively, not prioritizing CS properly, or being very sloppy with ability usage in general (2 seconds between casts, for example).

Also, in regards to Consecration, it's really not necessary in the single-target rotation. It's mana-restrictive if you're using SoT unless you've wasted points in Hallowed Ground, and isn't a significant DPS boost over ignoring it entirely. Mana is much tighter in 4.0.6 than in 4.0.3a because we're casing Judgement less frequently due to pushback from missed CS's. Even in 4.0.3a it was relatively tight - if you don't believe me, add up the mana cost of CS-J-CS-AS-CS-SotR and compare that to the 30% you get back from Judgement. You're actually in the red without BoMight, Replenishment, and the meager amounts of Sanctuary income we get. Seal of Insight, of course, nullifies all of those concerns.

But if you're using SoT, it's far better to ignore Consecration and Holy Wrath entirely, and just use them against multiple targets where Sanctuary income is higher. That also lets you sneak off a Holy Radiance here or there, which is frequently helpful as a raid cooldown.

Mech
03-11-2011, 01:25 PM
Well then I don't know what I'm doing so differently because I never have had any mana issues unless testing my rotation against a dummy. Every pull I use Consecration and Holy Wrath when it's off cooldown. I'm not using any mana saving talents or glyphs. I never use SoI unless the healer is AFK when I'm killing low damage mobs. For most fights I rarely go below 40% mana. It has to because I'm hit capped. I don't know and starting to wonder.

Jtree
03-11-2011, 10:12 PM
Well then I don't know what I'm doing so differently because I never have had any mana issues unless testing my rotation against a dummy. Every pull I use Consecration and Holy Wrath when it's off cooldown. I'm not using any mana saving talents or glyphs. I never use SoI unless the healer is AFK when I'm killing low damage mobs. For most fights I rarely go below 40% mana. It has to because I'm hit capped. I don't know and starting to wonder.

"Most fights" = what? instance trash? heroic raid bosses?

Doc309
03-12-2011, 12:29 AM
@mech
Dude ... you are trying to argue with THECK. The theorycrafter for prot pallys...

i'll address a couple of things in your recent posts... and ill try not to sound condescending. :)

being hit capped has nothing to due with mana returns.
warriors can "soft-cap" CTC. meaning they can reach the cap with shield wall up. talking about pallys soft capping CTC makes no sense.
gemming and reforging, for hit/expertise (instead of CTC) means that you take more damage, and are therefore harder to heal.
pally's become uncrittable, through the talent sanctuary.

if you have questions ask.
if you want to argue. i'm done...

correction...
hit cap does have a minor effect on mana returns through Judgement missing.
i say minor after testing because even with only 1% hit i had a better than 85% up time for judgement of the wise.

Mech
03-12-2011, 06:32 PM
@mech
Dude ... you are trying to argue with THECK. The theorycrafter for prot pallys...

First of all, I'm not "arguing" anything with anyone. Secondly, "argument", debate, discussion, whichever you may want to claim this as I speak from my own personal experiences as a prot pally. Theckhd and others can theorize all they want, but does that change what I'm physically observing in game on my character? No. Does that mean I'm right and theorycrafter's, like Theckhd, are wrong? No. I'm starting to feel like I have to document me tanking a heroic to prove that what I'm telling players is true. I have had no mana issues at any gear level to date. In fact, I've taken this discussion in game and to another paladin in my guild and asked him if he has mana issues using Consecration every time it's off cooldown. And low and behold, his response was, "No."



warriors can "soft-cap" CTC. meaning they can reach the cap with shield wall up. talking about pallys soft capping CTC makes no sense.

It makes no sense? Well let's try to make sense of it. I don't know if you remember how some warriors, rogues, and hunters "soft capped" their Armor Pen rating back in Wrath. They used one of three trinkets that would proc and add to their preexisting Armor Pen rating which then brought them to 100% Armor Pen rating. So take this idea and modify it for us tanks. With certain items any prot paladin could acquire this 100% "CTC" at intervals just as you previously stated with prot warriors using Shield Wall.

Now I know your next post is going to be argumentative of this concept, so let me try and interrupt that by saying this is not the 100% correct thing to do. Getting a fixed 102.4% avoidance is paramount. However, until I can acquire ungodly amounts of mastery, parry, and dodge I found this to HELP mediate this as a SHORT TERM fix. Just as it was a short term fix for the warriors, rogues, and hunters out there that had to use this method with Armor Pen rating until they got the better gear to reach their hard cap.


gemming and reforging, for hit/expertise (instead of CTC) means that you take more damage, and are therefore harder to heal.

In a black and white world, yes I would be harder to heal compared to so 'n so. However, am I so hard to heal that healers go "oom" trying to keep me up? No. I've never seen any healer go "oom" trying to keep me alive. The only time I see "oom" healers is when dps do things that make them waste their mana keeping the dps alive.

And, for the record, I never said gem for hit or expertise. I have strongly expressed that you ONLY reforge for this. All gems slots, in my opinion, should be packed with Fractured Amberjewels (+40 Mastery) or the jewelcrafter equivalent unless the socket bonus is more beneficial.


pally's become uncrittable, through the talent sanctuary.

I'm a bit lost on this comment and my only response is "Duh, of course Sanctuary makes you mostly uncrittable." Perhaps I missed a typo in a previous post and meant to say Unhittable, which we all know is a term that came from the BC days to mean that no boss hit can hit us without first being dodged, parried, blocked, or missed.

I say MOSTLY uncrittable because there is still a very teeny tiny chance that you can still be critically hit by a boss. And I'm almost certain that has been documented somewhere and not just me theorizing again.



correction...
hit cap does have a minor effect on mana returns through Judgement missing.
i say minor after testing because even with only 1% hit i had a better than 85% up time for judgement of the wise.

Well, I have 8% hit so I have a 100% uptime as long as I'm judging. So just as I SUGGESTED in previous post, perhaps that's why I never have mana issues. Either way, this entire discussion has me wondering what if I went out and got a new set of gear and followed your method of stat prioritizing. Would I then have mana issues? I'm stumped until I do.

Fetzie
03-12-2011, 07:38 PM
I say MOSTLY uncrittable because there is still a very teeny tiny chance that you can still be critically hit by a boss. And I'm almost certain that has been documented somewhere and not just me theorizing again.There is a 0 percent chance to be critted by a boss with 3 points in sanctuary. It is simply not possible to be critted, unless the boss has an extra critical strike chance (which is not the case in the current content) or the player in question sits down (which is the player's own fault). In fact a raid boss would have a theoretical -0.4% chance to critically hit you, due to them having a 5.6% chance to crit and the talent granting 6%.

The only bosses that could make you crittable with at least 5.6% crit avoidance were those with an unbalancing strike ability which could lower defense skill such as Thorim in ulduar and one of the Twin Emperors in AQ40. There was some trash in halls of lightning with a dispellable +50% crit chance buff and Eadric in trial of the champion could guarantee a critical strike. Also Stinky and Precious (ICC trash) had an elevated weapon skill to guarantee the mortal strike not expiring, which enabled them to critically strike.

theckhd
03-14-2011, 05:34 AM
Well then I don't know what I'm doing so differently because I never have had any mana issues unless testing my rotation against a dummy. Every pull I use Consecration and Holy Wrath when it's off cooldown. I'm not using any mana saving talents or glyphs. I never use SoI unless the healer is AFK when I'm killing low damage mobs. For most fights I rarely go below 40% mana. It has to because I'm hit capped. I don't know and starting to wonder.

Using it once on the pull is one thing, using it consistently during a fight is something entirely different. In addition, Consecration is 55% of your base mana, so if you're casting that on the pull you're almost certainly dropping below 40% mana. Unless, I suppose, you're casting nothing else but Cons on the pull, which seems unlikely. Or talenting Hallowed Ground, but if so you should have clarified that earlier.

More likely, you're not noticing it because you're hit-capped. There are two primary causes of mana restriction:
1) Judgement missing
2) Judgement pushback due to missed Holy Power generators

#1 is impossible at 8% hit, #2 is much more significant at low hit/exp.

The other thing I can guess at is that you might not be using Holy Radiance very often, which is another relatively expensive spell. HR is very useful in many of the heroic-mode encounters, so having mana to cast it is preferable to wasting mana on Consecration.

That said, mana restriction isn't a good argument for getting to hit cap. You're giving up around 900 rating worth of survivability to reach hit cap (and more if you're working on expertise cap). You gain next to no survivability from the hit/exp in a raid scenario, because smart paladins aren't WoGging on cooldown anyway. What you're really doing is trading a huge chunk of survivability for threat or DPS, neither of which is necessary in the current environment.

I suppose if you want to have an easier time solo-healing yourself in 5-man heroics when your PuG healer stands in fire, then stacking hit makes a little sense. But it doesn't make sense for any raid encounter in this tier unless you're a designated interrupter.

The anecdotal evidence from your guildmate is sort of meaningless. For all we know, he might be waiting 2 seconds between casts (for an amazing ~25% decrease in mana consumption!), or might be hit/exp-capped. Without some way to evaluate whether he's doing something significantly different from "the norm," we can't make any judgments based on his opinion.

For more substantiated evidence: I talk with several paladin tanks in top-100 guilds on a regular basis, and all of them have told me the same thing - mana is typically tight if they try and fit Consecration into the rotation while running SoT, but since threat is irrelevant in this tier of content it's easy enough to just run SoI or drop Consecration from the rotation. The difference between your anecdote and mine is that I know that these players aren't making many mistakes, because I can check their logs and armory and see what they're doing, and their progress suggests they're doing it right.

Doc309
03-14-2011, 11:41 AM
@mech
I thought that there might be hope for you when i saw you post, " i don't know and starting to wonder".
I see that i was wrong.
Theck ( and even I ) do not simply theorize. we theorize then test...

@theck
what do you recommend, when a holy power generator misses?

Fetzie
03-14-2011, 11:46 AM
I fill the GCD with something and hit crusader strike ASAP :)

Arjac
03-14-2011, 02:30 PM
I have done some significant changes to my gear in terms of gemming and reforging since my last post, mostly following this new "Ask Mr. Robot", but not to the tee. With what he wants me to have in my current gear and optimal gems/reforges it drops me .64% hit, 9 Expertise (Dwarf racial and Mace) but ~87% pre-raid buff avoidance. I did some of my own personal changes to get to 2% hit and 11 expertise with the 3 remaining blues I have in my gear (neck, ring and Throngus Finger) and now have ~84% avoidance. Either way being up from ~78% all our tank healers and my healer gf for heroics have told me I'm alot easier to heal (in the terms I'm decreasing the large spikes).

We're a semi-hardcore/casual guild in 25-man raid progression and we finally managed to now 2 shot the Ascendant Council in BoT. Even with all the range flinging their spells over my head before I get a second hit on Feludius, or picking up Terrasta and eventually the Elementium Monstrosity (Captain Planet!) I'm having no problems with keeping threat even with the kiting. Yes, the MD and TotT give me that boost, and I am still seeing the misses, but by the time MD wears off Vengeance has kicked in high gear and threat is no issue to me. Don't take this as bragging but we do have 2-3 people every week making the WoL DPS rankings. I state this to say we do have heavy hitters in our raids. Anyways, as much as I hate to miss or be dodged/parried, the avoidance is well worth it.

As far as mana goes I'm always using SoT. Even with occasionally throwing COnsecrate down without the talent or glyph, I haven't had mana issues. On the other hand, I do like the idea of switching to SoI 1/3 through the fight to throw out extra HRs \o/

My opening is: DP - AS - SotR - CS - Con - J - CS - AS(if GC proc)/HW - CS - SotR. Rinse and repeat until MD wears off and replace SotR with WoG on myself or the OT. With CS misses I'm a little stupid with waiting for another CS CD to try again and I really shouldn't. The new patch will help fill in those misses with the use of AS within 6 seconds of a GC proc.

I'm no one to listen to, but theckhd is (I've followed some of his guides with minor tweaks since I switch to a pally main just before the Cataclysm release ;)). But I always like to say go with personal preferences and what works for you, but at the same time see what works for your healers/threat.

Contravene
03-14-2011, 03:06 PM
I was a die hard Exp/Hit "survivalist" player but EJ is right and I am completely wrong. I maintained HIT/EXP and I would argue that it is a great strategy. Then I tried Ask MR. Robot that tool is amazing it was mouth watering how much Mastery I was looking at and even though I realized it would set me off 5% to miss and only 11 expertise with my seal I went ahead and did it.

Wifes the healer she heals me in Roic 5 mans/some Tier 11 and she noticed 4 full points into Mastery and a bunch more into Parry/Dodge right away in the less healing she had to give up. So yeah I might have yellow gems in red sockets and low hit/exp but it is the best I have had so far. Wife turned that Ask Mr Robot lose on her Resto Shaman and she is seeing all pluses along with higher in combat mana regen.

I am not here to vouch for Ask Mr. Robot I recommend you follow through it with pencil/paper first. That is my experience on this subject and I hope it helps you because it sure made my healers job a lot easier.. (I don't miss HoPo generation often still so someone needs to do some math checking)


Edit: I logged out as Ret Paladin in my armory so don't both trying to look me up right now but I am full mitigation so not to hard to imagine.

Mech
03-14-2011, 06:34 PM
More likely, you're not noticing it because you're hit-capped. There are two primary causes of mana restriction:
1) Judgement missing
2) Judgement pushback due to missed Holy Power generators

#1 is impossible at 8% hit, #2 is much more significant at low hit/exp.

Thank you.


You're giving up around 900 rating worth of survivability to reach hit cap (and more if you're working on expertise cap).

In theory you are correct. But you are implying that that's 961 Hit and 481 Expertise that I am getting via gems, enchants, food buffs, and/or reforgery when in fact I'm not. A lot of my gear carries hit or expertise. If you all think I'm getting 961 hit via reforging, I think you are the crazy ones. I mean is that even possible? LOL


The difference between your anecdote and mine is that I know that these players aren't making many mistakes, because I can check their logs and armory and see what they're doing, and their progress suggests they're doing it right.

What mistakes are you talking about? This is tanking. This isn't rocket science. There really isn't a lot of room for what can be considered a "mistake". And do you want my armory and for me to make a WoL account just to prove something to you that we haven't already covered?


@mech
I thought that there might be hope for you when i saw you post, " i don't know and starting to wonder".
I see that i was wrong.
Theck ( and even I ) do not simply theorize. we theorize then test...

What exactly have you tested? Theck is a highly respected theorycrafter. And you are? Your arrogance amuses me. Get a real opinion outside of what someone else posts. Everything you have posted in this thread has been a regurgitation of what someone else has previously said. Is there any hope for you? Or will the kittens continue to die?

At this point it just seems that these posts are all argumentative. Neither of us are right. Neither of us are wrong. We're both talking about the same principals of tanking as a paladin. "Follow this guide and win." Our only difference is a matter of preference. I like not missing or getting dodged while attempting to cover as much of the combat table as possible. Others care more about the combat table over misses. We get it. Move on already. I really have not seen nor read a theory previously about purposely staying below either cap in order to cover the table. And after reading that it's feasible to tank with little to no hit/expertise, I may change some reforging. Then again I may not. Either way, this is absurd to continue. If there's any tanking advice to suggest. Great. If you want to continue this banter, find a brick wall for you to address it to.

theckhd
03-15-2011, 07:55 AM
@theck
what do you recommend, when a holy power generator misses?
Cast something else? The default rotation is CS-X, repeat. Fill X with SotR>J>AS>(Cons/HW if you have excess mana). If a CS misses, you just keep chugging along. If you run out of fillers to cast, or don't have the mana to cast Cons/HW, then just leave that GCD empty and move on to the next CS.



In theory you are correct. But you are implying that that's 961 Hit and 481 Expertise that I am getting via gems, enchants, food buffs, and/or reforgery when in fact I'm not. A lot of my gear carries hit or expertise. If you all think I'm getting 961 hit via reforging, I think you are the crazy ones. I mean is that even possible? LOL
No, I'm saying you have to get it from somewhere. Gems, reforging, enchants, food, or just the base stats on gear. For example, using a STR/expertise/mastery item instead of a STR/dodge/mastery item. The point is that no matter how you get them, hit rating and exp are threat/dps stats. By choosing to take either over a survivability stat, you're implicitly making the decision to choose threat over survivability.

In most cases, this is an explicit choice (gems, reforging, enchants). Gear is trickier, since some pieces just have threat stats, though you can reforge some of it away. However there are only a few slots for which there's no "pure tanking" alternative to a "threat tanking" piece. Like I said, I was running with ~1% hit (from the neck) and 3 expertise (racial) for a very long time, so the options are obviously out there. Availability might be an issue though, e.g. if you're not able to kill certain bosses yet.


What mistakes are you talking about? This is tanking. This isn't rocket science. There really isn't a lot of room for what can be considered a "mistake". And do you want my armory and for me to make a WoL account just to prove something to you that we haven't already covered?
I'm not sure what you mean. It's possible to make mistakes while tanking. Using a /sit macro, for example, would be a pretty big mistake!

But what I mean is that there's an "optimum" cast sequence for threat rotation, so it's a fair assumption to say that an exceptional paladin follows that rotation without making many errors. If you start making mistakes, then the sequence changes, and with it your threat output and mana expenditure change.

As a simple example, this is the "correct" rotation, for the moment we'll ignore misses/dodges/parries and assume we get enough lucky Grand Crusader procs to consistently cast AS every 9 seconds:

CS-J-CS-AS-CS-SotR

Judgements of the wise generates 3% base mana per second, and clipping refreshes it rather than rolling it. So every 9 seconds, we get 9*3=27% base mana back.
During that 9 seconds, we're casting 3xCS, 1xAS, and 1xJ, for 3*10%+12%+5%=47% base mana (CS+J+AS). That's obviously not sustainable without Replenishment, BoMight, or Sanctuary income - we're actually losing 20% mana every 9 seconds. And if you don't get a Grand Crusader proc, every other AS might be a Consecration, at a much steeper mana cost of 68% per cycle (on average). If it's an empty GCD instead, then the cycle cost drops to 41%.

Now consider a player who makes mistakes; in this case we'll say they skip AS altogether:

CS-J-CS-empty-CS-SotR

You've suddenly shaved 12% base mana off of the cycle at a significant DPS reduction. Now you're only using 35% mana every 9 seconds, and the extra 8% might be covered by Sanctuary.

Worse yet, you could get a player that uses the wrong queue entirely. Let's say they prioritize Judgement above everything else, and waits half a second for it to come off of cooldown to use it immediately:

J-CS-AS-CS-(0.5s pause)-J-CS-SotR-CS-(0.5s pause)-J-CS-AS-CS-(0.5s pause)-J-SotR

We're still generating 3% mana per second, but now we're casting fewer other spells per second. We generate 24% base mana between Judgements, but only use 26% (2xCS + 1/2 AS) on average. Almost mana-neutral!

Of course, you can go the other way as well. Following the "correct" rotation with low hit/exp can give you the following sort of results:

CS-J-CS-AS-CS-empty-CS-SotR-CS-J-CS-...

Here we've increased the time between Judgements to 12 seconds, reducing our mana intake to 30% every 12 seconds, or 2.5% per second. But we're now spending 40%+12%=52% during those 12 seconds, and more if we get lucky Grand Crusader procs.

Note that in the current environment, you could hold aggro with any of these sequences. And a surprising number of novice tanks do make these sorts of mistakes without realizing that they're mistakes. But it illustrates the point - your ability usage patterns have a significant impact on your mana situation. A player following the wrong rotation could have no mana problems because their ability usage is slow or sub-optimal, or they could have lots of mana problems because they forget to cast Judgement once in a while. Likewise, a player that's following the "perfect" rotation might run out of mana because of Judgement pushback and CS misses.

That makes it difficult or impossible to take any anecdote at face value, because the result is very sensitive to exactly what the player is doing and how they play. Everyone thinks they play "correctly," but if you scrutinize any log you'll find that most of them make mistakes at least occasionally, including me. To infer anything from someone's anecdotal opinion or impressions, you first have to compare it to what they're actually doing in practice.

For example, it would be foolish to take my assertion that mana is tight at face value only to find out later that I don't have Judgement on my bars!

Mech
03-15-2011, 02:46 PM
By choosing to take either over a survivability stat, you're implicitly making the decision to choose threat over survivability.


Availability might be an issue though, e.g. if you're not able to kill certain bosses yet.

Or the player, i.e. someone like myself, doesn't raid often enough to have the luxury of picking and choosing items. You and me are on two different wave lengths when it comes to what we can accomplish in gear choices. Sometimes the threat/dps items are better upgrades than the item with survivability. Unless you want to tell me item level 346 survivability items are now somehow better to keep over item level 359 BoE's that carry threat/dps stats? Sometimes it's just a flat out upgrade no matter the stats (excluding such silliness as getting int/spirit/resilience gear).


Like I said, I was running with ~1% hit (from the neck) and 3 expertise (racial) for a very long time, so the options are obviously out there.

I want to know how you glyph then. If you only have 3 expertise and use SoI over SoT, then it's safe to assume you wouldn't be using the SoT Prime glyph. You have SotR, HotR, and then what? Judgment? WoG? SoI? Crusader Strike?


I'm not sure what you mean. It's possible to make mistakes while tanking. Using a /sit macro, for example, would be a pretty big mistake!

I mean it's pretty straight forward.

0.0 - Crusader Strike/Hammer of the Righteous
1.5 - Judgment
3.0 - Crusader Strike/Hammer of the Righteous
4.5 - Avenger's Shield
6.0 - Crusader Strike/Hammer of the Righteous
7.5 - Shield of the Righteous/Word of Glory

After that I guess it can be a bit confusing to novice paladins, but it's really not that complicated. Then again, I played an enhancement shaman for the past year, so priority systems are not new to me.


Now consider a player who makes mistakes; in this case we'll say they skip AS altogether:

CS-J-CS-empty-CS-SotR


Only mistake this player would be making is not using Holy Wrath in that empty spot as long as Avenger's Shield is still on cooldown. For example, after the pull since most paladins use Avenger's Shield to pull and you didn't get a Grand Crusader proc.


Worse yet, you could get a player that uses the wrong queue entirely. Let's say they prioritize Judgement above everything else, and waits half a second for it to come off of cooldown to use it immediately:

J-CS-AS-CS-(0.5s pause)-J-CS-SotR-CS-(0.5s pause)-J-CS-AS-CS-(0.5s pause)-J-SotR


First off, I don;t consider using Judgment first entirely a mistake. For example, I run into a fight and throw Avenger's Shield followed by a Judgment since I'm still not in range to get off a Crusader Strike. Or if you choose to use that as a single target pull around CC'd targets (assuming you are not using the Focused Shield glyph). Secondly, and excuse me if I'm missing something, but Judgment has an 8 sec cooldown. Not a 5 sec cooldown as you illustrated in the rotation above. Using judgment first would look like...

0.0 - Judgment
1.5 - Crusader Strike
3.0 - Avenger's Shield/Holy Wrath
4.5 - Crusader Strike
6.0 - Avenger's Shield/Holy Wrath/Consecration
7.5 - Crusader Strike
9.0 - Judgment (Have to wait 1 sec due to GCD)

On an entirely different note, I have a question. In my current gear I am using the Porcelain Crab trinket (Procs 1725 mastery for 20 sec). Now when this procs, it gives me 104% total avoidance. That's 1.6% over the combat table. Now that still leaves me under cap for a minute after the buff has worn off until it procs again. Now from dealing with this thread, would you still consider still reforging for avoidance due to the limited coverage? Or stay as is until something better drops from a raid?

Fetzie
03-16-2011, 06:03 AM
Unless you want to tell me item level 346 survivability items are now somehow better to keep over item level 359 BoE's that carry threat/dps stats?372 dps items with mastery are better than 346 items with mastery + avoidance stat. 359 dps items with mastery are usually not as good as a 346 blue with mastery + avoidance.


I want to know how you glyph then. If you only have 3 expertise and use SoI over SoT, then it's safe to assume you wouldn't be using the SoT Prime glyph. You have SotR, HotR, and then what? Judgment? WoG? SoI? Crusader Strike?Seal of Insight, Word of Glory, + another. Makes for SoI ticking for nearly 5000 heal per swing, and WoG critting for 50k.


Secondly, and excuse me if I'm missing something, but Judgment has an 8 sec cooldown. Not a 5 sec cooldown as you illustrated in the rotation above. Using judgment first would look like...Judgement has an effective 5 second cooldown because it takes the boss 2 seconds to run to you in which you can do pretty much bugger all after using AS. You then start the rotation CS/Filler/CS/Filler/CS/ShoR.


That's 1.6% over the combat table. Now that still leaves me under cap for a minute after the buff has worn off until it procs again. Now from dealing with this thread, would you still consider still reforging for avoidance due to the limited coverage? Or stay as is until something better drops from a raid?The procc is nice, but I would still reforge the dodge rating on the trinket to mastery to cover the trinket's downtime. You want to maximise your overall block chance to minimise incoming damage.

theckhd
03-16-2011, 07:54 AM
Unless you want to tell me item level 346 survivability items are now somehow better to keep over item level 359 BoE's that carry threat/dps stats? Sometimes it's just a flat out upgrade no matter the stats (excluding such silliness as getting int/spirit/resilience gear).
No, it's probably still better to go to a higher-ilvl item. Sometimes you get stuck with items that have dps stats on them. But you can still choose to reforge those stats to survivability rather than the other way around. For example, reforging expertise to dodge on an exp/mastery item, rather than reforging either stat to hit to achieve cap.



I want to know how you glyph then. If you only have 3 expertise and use SoI over SoT, then it's safe to assume you wouldn't be using the SoT Prime glyph. You have SotR, HotR, and then what? Judgment? WoG? SoI? Crusader Strike?
For most of progression, I've glyphed WoG/SoI/HotR. I've been experimenting with WoG/SoT/HotR recently as a way to get a larger swing between "survivability mode" and "DPS mode." The SoI glyph only affects WoG, so it's actually fairly weak. In practice, "did I WoG or not" is much more important than "was that WoG 5% bigger?"



I mean it's pretty straight forward.

0.0 - Crusader Strike/Hammer of the Righteous
1.5 - Judgment
3.0 - Crusader Strike/Hammer of the Righteous
4.5 - Avenger's Shield
6.0 - Crusader Strike/Hammer of the Righteous
7.5 - Shield of the Righteous/Word of Glory

After that I guess it can be a bit confusing to novice paladins, but it's really not that complicated. Then again, I played an enhancement shaman for the past year, so priority systems are not new to me.

Oh, it's not complicated at all, but you'd be surprised at how many paladins don't manage to execute it properly. I blame the Grand Crusader in-game power aura, because it leads a lot of players to believe that they should cast it immediately, pushing back CS.

For that matter, you do occasionally have to break rotation for encounter-related reasons, like skipping or delaying something to cast Holy Radiance, Hand of Sac, etc.

The point was simply that the exact nature of your mana expenditure depends sensitively on not just what you cast, but when and in what order you cast it.


Only mistake this player would be making is not using Holy Wrath in that empty spot as long as Avenger's Shield is still on cooldown. For example, after the pull since most paladins use Avenger's Shield to pull and you didn't get a Grand Crusader proc.
Well, Holy Wrath is more mana-intensive than the "core" abilities (CS/AS/J/SotR). If you're not careful, you can run yourself out of mana by using Holy Wrath/Cons against single targets, especially if you're performing raid utility (Holy Radiance being the main culprit). Holy Wrath and Consecration are both fairly mana-inefficient at around 240-280 Damage per pct base mana, compared to 1.2k-1.3k DP%BM for CS and AS. So if you're going to drop anything from the rotation to conserve mana, they're the logical choices. At least Consecration scales with number of mobs (for 5 targets, it's in the same ballpark as CS and AS), Holy Wrath doesn't even have that saving grace. I mostly use it for the stun as a mitigation tool anymore, and ignore it as far as threat goes.

From what I've seen, and hints dropped by the developers, it seems that our single-target rotation is supposed to be those four core abilities, and HW/Cons are only supposed to be attractive for AoE situations. The problem is that while we have empty GCDs, we're going to be tempted to fill them with HW/Cons. Mana serves as the primary constraint to keep that from happening.



First off, I don;t consider using Judgment first entirely a mistake. For example, I run into a fight and throw Avenger's Shield followed by a Judgment since I'm still not in range to get off a Crusader Strike. Or if you choose to use that as a single target pull around CC'd targets (assuming you are not using the Focused Shield glyph). Secondly, and excuse me if I'm missing something, but Judgment has an 8 sec cooldown. Not a 5 sec cooldown as you illustrated in the rotation above. Using judgment first would look like...
The point wasn't that we were using it first, that's natural on the pull. The point was that we were prioritizing it above everything else in the steady-state single-target rotation. However, I did legitimately make a mistake in that example, there was supposed to be an extra GCD in there between Judgements. It should have looked like:

J-CS-AS-CS-(AS/HW)-(pause 0.5)-repeat

Note also that the "pause 0.5" might be transparent due to the double-latency penalty on CS. If you have 100-200ms of latency, then the rotation will be fairly seamless as

J-CS-AS-CS-AS-J

because each CS GCD can effectively be as much as 1.5+2*latency.


On an entirely different note, I have a question. In my current gear I am using the Porcelain Crab trinket (Procs 1725 mastery for 20 sec). Now when this procs, it gives me 104% total avoidance. That's 1.6% over the combat table. Now that still leaves me under cap for a minute after the buff has worn off until it procs again. Now from dealing with this thread, would you still consider still reforging for avoidance due to the limited coverage? Or stay as is until something better drops from a raid?
The nit-picker in me is forced to point out that it's "104% total combat table coverage," since block isn't considered avoidance. :P

But in that scenario, I would leave everything as-is. The trinket gives you around 22% block, but only during that 20-second period. During the 60 seconds of downtime, you're still below the cap. This is one of the drawbacks of proc trinkets as a tank - you're forced to decide whether to "waste" some of the proc, or reduce your survivability during the downtime to make most efficient use of it. My tendency would be to waste part of the proc to bring my baseline survivability up, all the while looking for a replacement trinket that isn't proc-based.

Contravene
03-16-2011, 09:44 AM
For most of progression, I've glyphed WoG/SoI/HotR. I've been experimenting with WoG/SoT/HotR recently as a way to get a larger swing between "survivability mode" and "DPS mode." The SoI glyph only affects WoG, so it's actually fairly weak. In practice, "did I WoG or not" is much more important than "was that WoG 5% bigger?"

I watch your armory and I think I got this idea from you on a day you were playing around which born Survivalist strategy for me. You are directly trading DPS for Extra Healing which could be needed if your crew is turning low DPS to start and you just need a little more time. I also use this strategy when I have 2 x Melee in my party for Heroic 5 mans for example and I know I will be needing to conserve healer mana.. I will switch to 15 exp and .31 chance to miss and I am a heal-a-tankAdin, again.. I have found taunts to be your friend to step back up threat after WoG heals.. (No I don't pay to reforge I have gear I can swap in)

Mech
03-16-2011, 10:26 AM
Seal of Insight, Word of Glory, + another. Makes for SoI ticking for nearly 5000 heal per swing, and WoG critting for 50k.



For most of progression, I've glyphed WoG/SoI/HotR. I've been experimenting with WoG/SoT/HotR recently as a way to get a larger swing between "survivability mode" and "DPS mode." The SoI glyph only affects WoG, so it's actually fairly weak. In practice, "did I WoG or not" is much more important than "was that WoG 5% bigger?"


If it wasn't for the fact that I rarely WoG or 4.1 changes to WoG I might consider picking up the WoG glyph, but it just seems sketchy. I'll have to play with it tonight.


The procc is nice, but I would still reforge the dodge rating on the trinket to mastery to cover the trinket's downtime. You want to maximise your overall block chance to minimise incoming damage.

Yeah that's what I do with all my gear. If there's no mastery on it, reforge it into mastery. For example, I was carrying around DMC: Earthquake and Porcelain Crab till I could afford the Mastery +400 resistance on use trinket from Hellscream's Reach rep.


No, it's probably still better to go to a higher-ilvl item. Sometimes you get stuck with items that have dps stats on them. But you can still choose to reforge those stats to survivability rather than the other way around. For example, reforging expertise to dodge on an exp/mastery item, rather than reforging either stat to hit to achieve cap.

Yeah I'll probably change more to this style as I get better gear and since you pretty much proven hit/expertise isn't necessary. I noticed when playing with the PTR talent trees on WoWhead that Prot may get a change to our Grand Crusader proc which would give us a charge of Holy Power if used within 6 secs. So there would seem to be less concern getting HoPo from my Crusader Strike.


Oh, it's not complicated at all, but you'd be surprised at how many paladins don't manage to execute it properly. I blame the Grand Crusader in-game power aura, because it leads a lot of players to believe that they should cast it immediately, pushing back CS.

Yeah I know what you mean.


The nit-picker in me is forced to point out that it's "104% total combat table coverage," since block isn't considered avoidance. :P

Block isn't avoidance? I always thought the formula was: Base Miss + Parry Chance + Dodge Chance + Block Chance = Your Total Avoidance. Or am I using the wrong terminology?


But in that scenario, I would leave everything as-is. The trinket gives you around 22% block, but only during that 20-second period. During the 60 seconds of downtime, you're still below the cap. This is one of the drawbacks of proc trinkets as a tank - you're forced to decide whether to "waste" some of the proc, or reduce your survivability during the downtime to make most efficient use of it. My tendency would be to waste part of the proc to bring my baseline survivability up, all the while looking for a replacement trinket that isn't proc-based.

That's kinda what I was thinking, but was not sure. I was almost considering dropping it for the 321 Mastery with 1605 strength for 20 sec on use trinket from Hellscream's Reach. But I'm sure the avoidance received from strength is too minimal to bother considering even it.

Fetzie
03-16-2011, 10:52 AM
An avoided swing is one that does zero damage. A block mitigates damage, you don't avoid it. Therefore Block != Avoidance.

Parry%+Dodge%+Miss%= total avoidance.

Parry%+Dodge%+Miss%+Block% = Combat Table Coverage.

edit: the agility use trinket from Tol'Barad would give you more avoidance when you clicky it than the strength use trinket.

theckhd
03-17-2011, 07:51 AM
Block isn't avoidance? I always thought the formula was: Base Miss + Parry Chance + Dodge Chance + Block Chance = Your Total Avoidance. Or am I using the wrong terminology?
As Pyrea clarified, avoidance is just Dodge, Parry, and Miss (i.e. the chance to avoid all damage from a single attack). Block is mitigation, because it prevents a portion of the damage, but never all of it. Calling it "102.4% avoidance" is a common misuse of terminology that seems to have resurfaced in Cataclysm, which is one of the reasons I proposed the term "combat table coverage" as an accurate alternative.



That's kinda what I was thinking, but was not sure. I was almost considering dropping it for the 321 Mastery with 1605 strength for 20 sec on use trinket from Hellscream's Reach. But I'm sure the avoidance received from strength is too minimal to bother considering even it.
The TB mastery/resist trinket is exceptional, but it sounds like you already use that. I personally run one stam trinket and the TB trinket most of the time. If you want a second mastery trinket, the TB mastery/agi one is probably a better choice than the mastery/str one unless you plan on using it for both Ret and Prot.

Laladinny
03-22-2011, 06:54 AM
Big point to offer for any available circumstance!
Leave a trash mob alone and get rdy for boss, then when all is set- grab it and use it for the chance to open your boss rotation by saving up 3HPw (holypower) from the trash mob. With this avail to start on the boss you can now hit Inquisition, Divine Plea (i prefer to use early to get rid of 9 sec debuff to heals),Avenging Wrath, Consecrate(with this threat lead you can use SoI after SoT is full and swap back to top off 5stack just b4 it goes down-helping healers mana issues more- for extra mana to makeup for this and since the boss isnt here yet-using the daze AS-its not hurting dps rotation), Judge just b4 its in range and now the only SotR I ever use is getting full blast with all the bonus from AW/Inq after that feel free to relax and close your eyes until GTFO addon tells u to move because you can enjoy a rotation of HotR/CS(calling these the PG from here out for power generator), AS(I use first and as often as its avail as it gives a chance to proc a freebie sooner) or Judge, PG, whichever AOE is off cd,PG,WoG - AFTER 4.1 it will be PG,AS,PG,AoE,PG,WoG/SotR (alternate each full rotation since cd on WoG is 20sec) Please be aware that the threat lead isnt as important as helping heals when mana issues are so bad atm for healers and will give your raiders more room to learn the dance when healers dont have to fear wasting heals on them as much with you help WoG FTW! why else is blizz nerfing the threat and cd on it if it wasnt so godly. IF Threat is still an Issue use a macro for raid warning WAIT ON DPS UNTIL second SotR and spam until you feel comfy

Heres my Spec( http://www.wowhead.com/talent#s0bZhrhcRddRMuf0h ) for most bosses, and I have a prot offspec as well incase there ever is a OT job im doing where im not taking dam.
Final note: I have Done Entire Runs With Eyes Closed After Pulling Until GTFO Procs! You can keep J,AS,PG,HW,WoG in a row and mash blindly with all 5 fingers on KBoard after this pull trick and do your job without fretting about rotation ever again. You can also save last 2 or 3Hpw from end of trash pull and start backing toward next pull before they die so you can chain the whole instance and keep you HPw coming, with all the WoG saving your healers mana!

Fetzie
03-22-2011, 07:18 AM
Big point to offer for any available circumstance!
Leave a trash mob alone and get rdy for boss, then when all is set- grab it and use it for the chance to open your boss rotation by saving up 3HPw (holypower) from the trash mob. With this avail to start on the boss you can now hit Inquisition, Divine Plea (i prefer to use early to get rid of 9 sec debuff to heals),Avenging Wrath, [...]

You don't need to do this, as divine plea grants three holy power when you use it. They do not fade if you cancel DP, so you can make a macro with


/cancelaura Divine Plea
/cast Word of Glory
to use Word of Glory while DP would still be running.

Laladinny
03-22-2011, 07:49 AM
Excellent, TYVM for reminding me about cancelling the DP. But still using the trash mobs means free Inquisition instead of picking it or SotR, so that DP is used for the SotR and you get both on first moment of Melee

Also a quick self edit, if you are not Exp capped SoT full time with the glyph will be worth using but may not be needed if your threat lead from start is big enough(proc from J making your SotR crit or not) so please watch your tps and be aware of swapping seals to SoI does help your mana and your healers to heal you less but can still be swapped back before its needed for refreshing the dot stack if you are noticing a need for a small threat increase. You should try to minimize this though as it may take some time from your rotation if you cant make up your mind :P

Added the glyphs to the link for Spec http://www.wowhead.com/talent#s0bZhrhcRddRMuf0h:Vc0Vdicm0

Laladinny
03-22-2011, 08:27 AM
This brought up a quick question if any serious #brains see this: Is there a stat weight set that would reflect heavier STR use for my preference to max survivability rotation/spec after threat issues are resolved. All the stat weights I find are all about max threat and when I run my daily heroics or get in a grind on them to help guildies I find even more interest in the WoGTanking and would like to increase from pulling 2-3 groups to more for faster dungeons and be able to gear new raiders in a day or two after unlocking heroics and have already gone through some with 2heals and 2aoe dps with the WoGTank spec. I have also been curious about dropping expertise/hit for crit when i cant get more str (and i dont think haste would help heal more either but let me know). Again this is more for places threat is really not an issue and getting bigger pulls is :P

Fetzie
03-22-2011, 08:33 AM
If you want to do bigger pulls, you will want more defensive stats. Mastery, Dodge, Parry. Crit and Haste are about as useful as spell power to a tank.

Laladinny
03-22-2011, 08:53 AM
Great stats yes, I just meant if i cant sub in the common mitigation- how does Str/Crit/Haste weigh out instead of the exp/hit and more important the ratio's instead of just which are good. Just would like to see a set of weights for WoGTank w/o threat focus at all. TY again for the fast input Pyrea, its nice to know Im getting heard.

Fetzie
03-22-2011, 09:05 AM
check the matlab thread on mtadin, stat comparison --> data labelled "W39".

sifuedition
03-22-2011, 09:19 AM
Great stats yes, I just meant if i cant sub in the common mitigation- how does Str/Crit/Haste weigh out instead of the exp/hit and more important the ratio's instead of just which are good. Just would like to see a set of weights for WoGTank w/o threat focus at all. TY again for the fast input Pyrea, its nice to know Im getting heard.

I'm sorry, but your whole premise is flawed. Stacking strength I assume is for more spellpower on your heals because of talents and then you say crit which I assume is for crit on heals? If you want to go faster and pull more, get more tank stats. If you need more heals, get a better / more geared healer. You can't do his job too. Trying to only makes you worse at yours.

Laladinny
03-22-2011, 10:37 AM
Ok no more responses on how mitigation is better, I know what stats are important and what current stat weights are and I have read all the theory. I am saying that if I dont need threat stats and am helping run fastest possible randoms (no accounting for a good healer or not) then I can sub those stats for str/crit/haste (When no more mitigation stats are available) and want to know the Weights (not if they matter) of those stats included in the list of mitigation and stam etc. for a WoGTank with above mentioned spec, glyphs and rotation. If I have flawed reasoning I will gladly point it out from reading information, so skip that step also-you can see I quickly thank pyrea for pointing out the cancel of DP. Dont tell me anything else other than how much str/crit/haste is worth (in this scenario) as if I were going to apply the weights to wowheads filter etc. Other points like haste wont affect the ICD in 4.1 of WoG and im stuck with 20 sec will be useful (im not saying thats fact, thats just a possible example). But dont tell me to stop using those stats LOL just give me the information unbiased and let me pick what to do with it as I am able to Weigh the information for myself-such is the point of theorycrafting.

Contravene
03-22-2011, 11:29 AM
The reason you don't stack things you aren't spec'd for is you aren't getting the bonuses and it makes the stat sub optimal. For example take Ret Paladin who stacks Crit/Mastery and he is spec'd to benefit from that stat.. If a Paladin tank stacks these stats that is a horrible waste he is spec'd to take damage not to get crit bonuses.. See the big sink hole where you are losing all your magic? (Except Mastery for the tank is useful as block and it works in that case but it is a quick example)