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Ghoat
02-11-2011, 08:42 AM
My DPS is terrible. My threat is fine. I'm assuming I'm missing something but various attempts at solving have done nothing material. I may "know" the answers and it's more a matter of tweaking my gameplan than rotations.

So last night on the baradin hold guy (argolath?) 4.6-4.7 ish dps.

1) inner rage. I'm not using it instinctively. Is it that significant?
2) shield slam. I'm using shield block defensively versus timing it to pop with shield slam. Bad? I thought it was now more critical for staying alive than beating on mobs.
3) rend. Single target with BnT as the method to keep rend up. bad? Just bother with in AE situations?
4) thunderclap. dont shockwave until you've clapped 3 times to max damage or am i just making silly things up at this point?
5) my dps is fine? That's about where it should be?

Beyond that my top 3 damage abilities usually look like devestate, SS, revenge, then everything else in equal quantities. Not enough HS? Too much revenge? REalize it's guess work without logs and all that but any insight would be great. Again, threat's not an issue.

Gear is entry raid/5 man heroic: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/nazjatar/ghoat/advanced


Apologies:this post should be in advice

Kazeyonoma
02-11-2011, 12:28 PM
moved to HALP

Sanelora
02-11-2011, 12:39 PM
My gear is average heroic gear and i can pull between 6 and 8k dps on single targets. I don't think it matters too much as long as you are holding threat. As for mitigation, Thunderclap and demo shout should always be up anyway so why not slap a rend on to refresh.

I personally pop SB every cooldown unless I am really not confident in my healers. Unsure about the shockwave on single targets. I really only use it for the stun and AE threat.

I did notice that you have reforged a lot of hit and expertise out for survivability stats. Expertise followed by hit are your biggest threat stats (and therefore, probably DPS too). You may find that you will have a few minor threat issues in the future with that approach considering that threat is getting a bit closer on some encounters. Do you really find that you are struggling with survivability?

I don't really tank anymore so other people's opinions would probably be more valid but that's my 2 cents.

EDIT: another thing to remember that on argoloth, only about half the time you are doing regular tank rotations due to meteor slash. That will significantly reduce your DPS

Katzazi
02-12-2011, 05:40 AM
I've low hit and expertise, too, and have no problems with DPS. When I have to switch over to fury for single tank bosses and complain about it, my raid tells me to shut up, sine I'm obviously n DD and than point to my dps numbers of different encounters. It's a running gag by now. Well sure, those are mostly gimic encounters, but I think they would behave otherwise when they thought my dmg is crap. You just don't need hit and expertise as a tank for most encounters.

Well there are some encounters where it's hard to get high numbers. But sometimes you can tweek it a little bit by intelligent use of Spell reflect or other stuff. If not - just think about it as a gimic encounter that does not count for your dps. What is probably true.

I would not think much about Argoloth for example. You are not tanking more than half of the time. No tank can reach high Vengenace stacks, there. And rage classes are also somewhat resource starved. But hell, it's your job to turn the mob in the right direction, not to be first in dmg done. But I have a tip for this encounter: Use Vigilance on the other tank and your Vengeance (and dps + tps) will be better.



If you are starting to raid: keep or increase your survivability. You will get hurt enough there. So you will have high Vengeance and should be able to do good dmg.

If you want more dps, change your spec, it will help much more

Answer yourself the following questions:
- Do you really need Blitz? I don't see the point to take it as prot.
- Do you actually use Impending Victory? It's extremely situational. Only take this talent if you really use it. Killing the mob faster will help the healers more in most situations.
- Do you use and need Gag Order? (I personally think it's a good idea to have, but there are other opinions.)

If you think you can do without some of the above do the following:
- Take the points out of Blood Craze. It's an extremely underbudgeted talent. Math says that killing the enemy faster saves more healer mana than taking this talent. So only take it if you want to reach somethin in tier 2 of fury.
- If you have rage problems often, put points into Shield Specialization. It also will give you rage when spell reflecing those nasty caster mobs. But most importantly you get rage when your survivability stats work fine.
- Put as much points as you can into Deep Wounds.
- Try to get as much points as you have left into Cruelty and Incite.

To answer your other questions:
- On HS usage: If you have rage left use it (or Cleave). It was nerved but it's additional dmg. If you have even more rage to spend, use IR and as much HS as you can with it up without(!) starving you to use your more important abilites (SS, Revenge, interrupts, stuns, debuffs ...). If HS is better or worse than your other abilities depends on your Vengeance, but HS got nerved so don't use it too much.

- You should use SB for both. Threat and survival. But in most cases that is easily done. For trash the most important moment for tps AND survivability is right at the beginning. So use it there and whenever needed again. Most bosses that have a dangerous ability do them on a 30s CD. (Or a multiplicative of 30s.) So if you time SB to cover the time around this ability, you should be able to use it more or less on CD. Anyway, it's a good idea to open with SB and wait for the first ablitity after that. SB right at the start ups your threat and gives the healer mor time to get going.

- With B&T and Thunderstruck, yes it's a slight dmg increase if you keep Rend up with TC all the time and use Shockwave after every 3rd TC. However you can use Shockwave right at the beginning to stun stuff or get an initial boost. It only will delay the stacked Shockwave for 1 GCD, anyway.

- Your dps should be everywhere. I've done about 30k dps on 10man Halfus (pre patch) without trying (I actually waited a long time before opening full AoE on welps, because I should not pull them from our other tank) and are around 5k or something at bosses that mostly ignore me.

Ghoat
02-12-2011, 06:02 AM
Answer yourself the following questions:
- Do you really need Blitz? I don't see the point to take it as prot.
- Do you actually use Impending Victory? It's extremely situational. Only take this talent if you really use it. Killing the mob faster will help the healers more in most situations.
- Do you use and need Gag Order? (I personally think it's a good idea to have, but there are other opinions.)

If you think you can do without some of the above do the following:
- Take the points out of Blood Craze. It's an extremely underbudgeted talent. Math says that killing the enemy faster saves more healer mana than taking this talent. So only take it if you want to reach somethin in tier 2 of fury.
- If you have rage problems often, put points into Shield Specialization. It also will give you rage when spell reflecing those nasty caster mobs. But most importantly you get rage when your survivability stats work fine.
- Put as much points as you can into Deep Wounds.
- Try to get as much points as you have left into Cruelty and Incite.

Blitz i was using for 5 mans for the wee bit of added control but yeah can probably live without.
Impending victory? could probably drop. I've read pros/cons. not married to it
Gag order I don't see dropping. Maybe as we get deeper into raiding it will be pointless or once 5 mans are trivial from gear but i find myself using it far to often to get control of things

The other suggestions seem reasonable to my play style. Hopefully some extra incite/cruelty/dw will pick up some dps slack. Rage/threat have not been the issue i simply want to contribute more. Thanks for the feedback, it's helpful.

Sebadoh
02-14-2011, 12:52 AM
BH is not a good indicator of your damage output as a tank because there's taunt swapping, you're only getting rage from being hit half of the time, and the other half you need to watch what you're doing to make sure you don't overtake the other tank on threat. You're also not getting hit very hard, so I'm not entirely convinced your full Vengeance stack was up and staying up.

I won't comment on the Warrior-specific stuff because my knowledge of Warrior tanking consists of "get really angry and smash stuff" and "Mastery good".