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woodyman
02-10-2011, 03:19 AM
Ok so i spent about 3 hours on the Raid dummy last night and the end result
I use to get about 10k DPS using Incite build and spamming HS

changed to Slam
making sure 3 stacks of slaughter stays up
using CS etc etc usuall stuff
best i managed 10.5k dps

I was hoping for a much larger dps increase than this
I felt majorly locked down on the rage side of things i only really managed to dump rage about once every 10 seconds or when using DC

also what are people doing with the 3 points that where in Incite?
i was thinking of puttin them into reducing CD on shouts and thus creatin more rage to dump, i cant see any other real DPS increase available on the trees

ive been playin arms since ive been playin wow and ive always found ways to get the best out of arms but im struggling at the moment

Another issue i noticed is obviously the enrage from MS crits causing +10% damage
i have 11% crit 29% mastery and around 9k AP self buffed

in a 2 minute parse on Raid dummy i had about 7% crit on MS :(
This is leading to a very very low uptime on enrage which obviously does not help my DPS much at all.
But all my reforging is taken up gettin my hit to 8% and expertise to 26 so i dont have a lot of room to change things as it is.

Just wondered if anyone had made any discoveries?
my raid group are really pushing me for fury now and if i try it an with same gear its more than a 2-3k dps increase then im gonna have to change and i REALLY dont want to!

JollyWarrior
02-10-2011, 10:42 AM
First, link us your armory.

Second, I saw a 1-3K dps increase (depending on fight) and am sitting at 11-14k mostly in pvp gear (4piece) sitting at 8% hit.

I dont make any effort to get to 26 exp opting for mastery instead.

I put those incite points into the shout talent and 1 in rude interruption.

In short, new Slam
Is jawsome.

shiz98
02-10-2011, 01:44 PM
Old Slam was awesome too, but people just didn't like it all that much. New slam is fantastic :).

I'd be interested to see what would happen if you can manage to swap some of that mastery for crit. I'm also a little surprised that you're rage starved, even when expertise and hit capped -- can you go into a bit more detail about the rotation you're using?

marklar
02-10-2011, 02:59 PM
woody, i searched for your armory, and i'm not sure 10.5k on a dummy with no buffs is bad for your gear, coupled with some bad luck on your MS crits (7% vs. 11%). remember, you'll be about 16% crit in a raid.

be sure you're keeping MS on CD - it's the only CD-locked attack we have, keep rend uptime as high as possible (preferably refreshed with TC), and also try and not use back to back slams. it can be costly to pause your swing timer twice like that, and almost always another ability is within 1/2 second of being ready.

don't worry about the lack of HS, i had 19 HS in a 5m27s fight last night, and most were because of BT or DC. it was 3.6% of my damage. HS dumps are rare at this gear level, but be sure you're using power auras or something else to indicate battle trance procs and use them immediately on HS (highest rage cost ability). i never had incite to begin with, but looking at your armory i'd put two into B&T and one into rude interruption.

as far as specific recommendations for you:
-get hit capped
-glyph of CS > glyph of sunder always
-get the sword from TB dailies - it's slower than what you have
-get a meta with 3% crit damage! strength if you can find it, but certainly the chaotic is cheap. get your run speed from boots.
-strength enchant to gloves
-your goal with gems should be to maximize your strength, so red = str, yellow = str/crit, blue = str/hit. get your caps from reforging.
-get your shoulder enchants

woodyman
02-11-2011, 02:41 AM
Thanks for all the info Guys
Had a little play around last night and it seems the low crit really was hurting my DPS badly
Probably mainly due to the low uptime on enrage from MS crits

Also i found an effective way of using HS and a decent increase on my DPS
was doing 13.2k dps on dummy

Basically i was saving up rage for a HS dump until CS was off cooldown and OP is up then CS+HS>OP>MS
with the shortened Global on OP plus HS being off the GCD this gave me a really hard spike in dps (peaked at 16k)

then combining this and DC etc worked really well

I Think if i can push my crit up a fair bit ill be seeing even better results.

Also i think my issue before was too many back to back slams thanks for reminding me about that marklar :)

JollyWarrior
02-11-2011, 02:31 PM
MS provides a buff to OP ( at least for the first 3) so might make MS > OP.

squats
02-11-2011, 06:13 PM
i always thought refreshing rend before the last tick was bad because the last tick will always proc an OP. im pretty sure thats still the case, so refreshing it with TC wouldnt be that good.

Destruyen
02-11-2011, 06:41 PM
i always thought refreshing rend before the last tick was bad because the last tick will always proc an OP. im pretty sure thats still the case, so refreshing it with TC wouldnt be that good.

it is bad and shouldn't be doing it. bnt should be used for aoe builds, not a single target build.

Muffin Man
02-11-2011, 06:53 PM
Naw, rend is 15 seconds now so it'll you'll have to wait for the second tick from your next rend.

Refreshing with thunderclap isn't a horrible idea because rend tickets instantly anyways and thunderclap I believe does more damage than a single rend tick.

That was the conclusion in the tank t/dps thread I believe anyways. It will mess up your OP rotation though, since clipping the last rend tick will cause rend to tick just slightly before TfB comes off ICD. So it might not be worth it for Arms.

woodyman
02-12-2011, 06:44 AM
thats what i thought. ive never specced bnt to be honest but i might give it a try on the dummy some time and see how it pans out

now ive smoothed out my rotation im fitting alot more HS into it and im wondering about speccing back into incite to test how it effects my DPS as the more i start to use HS the more beneficial it will be

ive never specced into rude interuption either cos i considered it to be too situational.
ive found burning as much rage while CS is up then building rage till its off cooldown again has had a positive effect on my DPS

also i prefer to stay 26 expertise cos i just dont like the idea of missing an MS and the Buff dropping off mid fight

Destruyen
02-12-2011, 07:03 AM
buff lasts 15 seconds so as long as you use ms on cd (which should be a given) then you have 3 chances to refresh the buff which is plenty. plus str, crit, and mastery are all better per point compared to expertise even under the cap, just like in wotlk.

woodyman
02-12-2011, 08:32 AM
im gonna run some proper parses soon on dummy and ill post them all up
im also going to get the 2 hander from tol barad and run a fury parse or 3 so i have a direct comparison.
i know arms 100 times better than i do fury so if i manage to get better DPS as fury while not knowing it that well ill be upset lol.

thinking things to try:
Stack Crit
Incite Build
Shout Build
convert expertise to crit / mastery
TC rend renew
Fury

Destruyen
02-12-2011, 09:02 AM
simulationcraft shows that high crit/low expertise sets are best right now for arms and has been since release. i don't know what you mean by a shout build since you could get booming voice in a build now with incite, but it's not that much of a dps gain if you sacrifice rude interruption to get it on fight that has something to interrupt.

at all gear levels fury is better than arms and arms doesn't bring anything a higher dps spec/class can't bring. not to piss on the parade or sound like negative nancy but there is no reason to be arms for pve if dps is your main spec. yes it was buffed but fury got some damn good buffs too this patch and the two specs are still not even close to being similar damage. save the respec gold and just add 2-3k dps to what you did as arms and that would be your fury dps if you haven't been fury in awhile.

marklar
02-13-2011, 04:12 AM
simulationcraft shows that high crit/low expertise sets are best right now for arms and has been since release. i don't know what you mean by a shout build since you could get booming voice in a build now with incite, but it's not that much of a dps gain if you sacrifice rude interruption to get it on fight that has something to interrupt.

at all gear levels fury is better than arms and arms doesn't bring anything a higher dps spec/class can't bring. not to piss on the parade or sound like negative nancy but there is no reason to be arms for pve if dps is your main spec. yes it was buffed but fury got some damn good buffs too this patch and the two specs are still not even close to being similar damage. save the respec gold and just add 2-3k dps to what you did as arms and that would be your fury dps if you haven't been fury in awhile.

i'm don't buy any of this, tbh - what are you going by to make these statements?

Destruyen
02-13-2011, 04:24 AM
http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/ try it yourself. import an expertise capped set and then a low expertise gearset and see which one is better. also when running the low exp. set, make sure to select analyze expertise, crit, strength, mastery and haste under scaling. even without 26 expertise, it shows that str > crit > mastery > exp > haste.

also use these settings when running tests in simcraft as arms. just copy them into the sim tab replacing the action lines already loaded.

actions=flask,type=titanic_strength
actions+=/food,type=beer_basted_crocolisk
actions+=/stance,choose=battle,if=!in_combat
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/golemblood_potion,if=!in_combat|buff.bloodlust.rea ct
actions+=/auto_attack
actions+=/deadly_calm,if=rage<20
actions+=/sweeping_strikes,if=target.adds>0
actions+=/berserker_rage
actions+=/bladestorm,if=target.adds>0&!buff.deadly_calm.up&!buff.sweeping_strikes.up
actions+=/cleave,if=target.adds>0
actions+=/heroic_strike,if=target.adds=0&(rage>65|buff.deadly_calm.up|buff.incite.up|buff.battle_ trance.up)
actions+=/overpower,if=buff.taste_for_blood.remains<5.5
actions+=/rend,if=!ticking
actions+=/colossus_smash,if=!buff.colossus_smash.up
actions+=/mortal_strike
actions+=/overpower,if=!buff.lambs_to_the_slaughter.up&rage>35&target.health_pct<20
actions+=/execute
actions+=/overpower
actions+=/slam,if=cooldown.mortal_strike.remains>=1.5&buff.deadly_calm.up
actions+=/battle_shout,if=rage<20

marklar
02-13-2011, 01:20 PM
you are making the assumption that the model is perfect; that is not always the case.

worth a try though, i'll reforge and hit the dummies later.

edit: actually, i see a problem already - doesn't seem that the model is up to date with 4.0.6

actions+=/overpower,if=!buff.lambs_to_the_slaughter.up&rage> 35&target.health_pct<20

woodyman
02-14-2011, 02:00 AM
To be honest im really not a fan of simulations
i see it like comparing two cars with micheal schumacher driving them.
im not goin to drive my car like him and thus it has little relevance to me. still a usefull tool tho if it is indeed correct for 4.0.6 so thanks for the info

On the subject of expertise, i always see people saying expertise does nothing to add DPS
however if u miss an auto attack due to lack of expertise you lose 29 rage which is almost enough for a HS so there is 6k damage already plus chance of the extra strike.

im sure crit still works out better but i just wondered if anyone ever took this into account

Destruyen
02-14-2011, 05:12 AM
To be honest im really not a fan of simulations
i see it like comparing two cars with micheal schumacher driving them.
im not goin to drive my car like him and thus it has little relevance to me. still a usefull tool tho if it is indeed correct for 4.0.6 so thanks for the info

no, but even you would still drive better in a ferrari than you would in a honda...and simcraft is up to date with patch 4.0.6.

if you miss an auto attack due to being dodged, yes you lose rage but overpower procs and only costs 5 rage, and hits like a dumptruck compared to a white swing...

woodyman
02-14-2011, 05:21 AM
ok i Will have play with this tommorow and also do some work on the dummy that way i get the best of both worlds
was gonna do it tonight but apparantly the mrs has made plans.......so inconsiderate! :P

Muffin Man
02-14-2011, 01:56 PM
Hmm, thought I posted this yesterday, but I guess not.

I saw this post on EJ:
http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t106913-arms_dps_4_0_cataclysm/p10/#post1868092

The long and short of it is it look like anything that buffs a *specific* ability is additive (so like War Academy, Glpyhs, ect as I mentioned earlier in the thread). Anything that buffs damage overall is multiplicative (everything else like Battle Stance, Blood Frenzy, Wrecking Crew).

So that's handy since we can just ignore all the general damage buffs (unless comparing stance dancing) when comparing between abilities.

Disastrpiece
02-14-2011, 08:05 PM
i always thought refreshing rend before the last tick was bad because the last tick will always proc an OP. im pretty sure thats still the case, so refreshing it with TC wouldnt be that good.


it is bad and shouldn't be doing it. bnt should be used for aoe builds, not a single target build.


You can't clip dots anymore... when you refresh a dot before it falls off, whether it's 1/2 second before or 14 seconds before it just resets the duration with no effect on the tick timer (barring temp haste buffs which don't apply in our situation anyways). If you've taken B&T then refreshing Rend with it right before it falls off is not only ok but the "right" way to do it.

marklar
02-15-2011, 01:01 PM
i saw something weird with refreshing rend in a heroic the other day, so on the next pull i did nothing but refresh rend. normally it would refresh to 15s, but i swear i saw some times where it refreshed to 17s. i'm using ClassTimers to track it, btw - but is that even possible or was the bar just wrong?

i'm trying to figure out if it really is worth it to use TC to refresh rend, or if i'd be better off with those points in TM or incite. an extra ~3500 damage per refresh vs. less time spent refreshing and 2 talent points free.

Destruyen
02-15-2011, 01:56 PM
i've noticed this as prot and using classtimers with rend as well. i've always dismissed it as a bug and never checking the combat log, but next time i will have to remember to check.

also as far as stance dancing goes, unless it is a bug when you get 4-pc the bonus will fall off if you switch stances. i noticed it on the ptr but since i don't have 4-pc dps on live i can't confirm if they fixed it or not. so if this is still happening on live and you have 4-pc, tm is wasted points.

marklar
02-16-2011, 01:01 PM
simulationcraft shows that high crit/low expertise sets are best right now for arms and has been since release.

i went and tried this for a bit on the dummy last night, dropped to about 5 experise, and most of the expertise was converted into more crit rating. however, i wasn't really liking it over an extended period of time. getting multiple OP was sure nice, but overall, i found myself more worried about rage, and having CS dodged was a PITA. overall, it seemed about even or slightly less dps.

is there any rotation change necessary to make it work? the only change i really made was to move OP to #1 priority, like i did in WotLK.

shiz98
02-16-2011, 03:57 PM
if you miss an auto attack due to being dodged, yes you lose rage but overpower procs and only costs 5 rage, and hits like a dumptruck compared to a white swing...
The question is also what the opportunity cost was for that GCD. Say, Slam. OP is rage efficient and hits hard, but does it hit hard enough to do more than, say, Slam + white swing (plus mastery benefit of the extra attack)? And do we need the rage efficiency?

I've been stacking expertise as a means to rage, as it's more efficient and gives a better direct DPS increase than haste. Can you get by without it?

I've been meaning to compile simulationcraft and try some different things with it for a while. Maybe I should start now...

Kazeyonoma
02-16-2011, 04:03 PM
I"m still curious as to why simcraft is saying you can sac expertise when you have things like Lambs buff, CS buff -> sunder armor maintenance, and as shiz brought up the gcd loss, just doesn't seem to outway whatever gains you gain from str. I'd imagine, letting lambs buff fall off because you got dodged, or having your CS get dodged and potentially letting sunder armor fall off ALONE outweighs it.

Muffin Man
02-16-2011, 05:12 PM
The lambs buff isn't as big a deal since once it's up to 3 stacks you'd have to have 2-3 MS's dodged in a row for it to fall off (depending on how tight your rotation/latency is I think).

The CS feels like it should be a big hit though - especially since low expertise means even less chances to proc Sudden Death to make up for it.

Question, can Strikes of Opportunity be dodged? I'm pretty sure it can, but if not maybe that decreases the value of Expertise, but even then low expertise also means less Mastery procs.

marklar
02-17-2011, 01:10 PM
I"m still curious as to why simcraft is saying you can sac expertise when you have things like Lambs buff, CS buff -> sunder armor maintenance, and as shiz brought up the gcd loss, just doesn't seem to outway whatever gains you gain from str. I'd imagine, letting lambs buff fall off because you got dodged, or having your CS get dodged and potentially letting sunder armor fall off ALONE outweighs it.

i'm going with the theory (until proven otherwise) that the simcraft model is either wrong or makes some unrealistic assumptions. it just doesn't make sense the way it did in WotLK to sacrifice expertise, and my own testing on the dummy confirms it for me. my dps went down and i was rage-starved more.

being expertise-capped, i've earned a top-20 WoL parse in BH (without the greatest gear). i also checked parses #1-3, and all three toons were expertise-capped as well. i know it doesn't prove anything, but it certainly challenges the simcraft recommendations, which aren't backed up in practice yet.

Destruyen
02-17-2011, 01:14 PM
anything outside of bh like maybe magmaw? half the fight in bh is standing in front of the boss where you get parried, giving expertise a higher than normal value.

marklar
02-17-2011, 03:26 PM
on magmaw, you get parried 100% of the time. although it's true those fights boost the value of expertise, aren't fights like that just one more reason to have expertise on your gear?

i'll try and look at some other fights, but BH is nice because it's stand still and there are no dps-boosting gimmicks.

edit: just checked halfus, where i got another good parse. i did 37k last night; the top three parses are 50k, 43k, 43k (those guys kicked my ass in AOE damage). all three are expertise-capped, as am i.

Destruyen
02-17-2011, 03:28 PM
on magmaw, you get parried 100% of the time.

what? i dps'd this on my alt druid and didn't notice any parries...

Ion
02-17-2011, 03:38 PM
on magmaw, you get parried 100% of the time.

i'll try and look at some other fights, but BH is nice because it's stand still and there are no dps-boosting gimmicks.

Magmaw definitely doesn't parry 100% of the time (though it'd be clearer to say "you shouldn't be dpsing Magmaw from the front")...if you are moving around to avoid getting crashed on you might get parried then, but generally you should be behind him. If not, you're probably doing it wrong.

marklar
02-17-2011, 03:43 PM
Magmaw definitely doesn't parry 100% of the time (though it'd be clearer to say "you shouldn't be dpsing Magmaw from the front")...if you are moving around to avoid getting crashed on you might get parried then, but generally you should be behind him. If not, you're probably doing it wrong.

maybe this is my fault then. we typically stack on the tank to make healing a little easier, so i get parried a lot.

i actually didn't know i could get far enough behind him to avoid parries ><

edit2: just checked magmaw as well - all three top parses showed no dodges, indicating they are expertise-capped.

Ion
02-17-2011, 04:02 PM
maybe this is my fault then. we typically stack on the tank to make healing a little easier, so i get parried a lot.

i actually didn't know i could get far enough behind him to avoid parries ><

edit2: just checked magmaw as well - all three top parses showed no dodges, indicating they are expertise-capped.

There's almost no aoe heal that wouldn't hit the tank if used on the melee even if you're standing behind him...the only one that might not is efflorescence if someone is standing particularly far out when they get hit with it. Chain heal should jump, PoH/CoH are group, Wild Growth and PoM should hit if Chain heal does...Light of Dawn won't hit melee ever, so that's not really an issue. Healing rains will cover half the room...so that's not an issue either (but it's probably cast more on your ranged stack anyway).

woodyman
02-18-2011, 07:55 AM
Other point to note If ur MS is dodged there is a chance that could have been a crit which would then have also been and enrage....... which would be MS crit+ enrage + oppertunity strikes (possibility)

im sure OP hits like a dumptruck and im sure sometimes it does work out the better option but on the whole i prefer the safer option of a steady rage income and not missing major rotations abilities

JollyWarrior
02-19-2011, 08:10 AM
So are you guys gemming or reforging for exp to get capped? I'm currently reforging to mastery. I've always been of the impression that reforging/enchanting/gemming for exp was bad, but seems now Exp to 26 is a great thing

Endevor
02-19-2011, 01:43 PM
So I just noticed the hot fix to arms yesterday, Two-Handed Weapon Specialization now gives 20% bonus damage with two-handed weapons, up from 10%. I have been using arms almost exclusively for Maloriak despite my love for arms. I havn't been able to test it yet, and was wondering if anyone here has. It looks like it still wont be quite up to par with fury, but maybe a step in the right direction. If anyone has any further information or tests I would love to see them, and when I have a spare moment I'll spend some time on the dummies.

Manxmadman
02-19-2011, 03:47 PM
also as far as stance dancing goes, unless it is a bug when you get 4-pc the bonus will fall off if you switch stances. i noticed it on the ptr but since i don't have 4-pc dps on live i can't confirm if they fixed it or not. so if this is still happening on live and you have 4-pc, tm is wasted points.

Just hit a dummy a bit as Fury, and changing from Beserker to Battle scrubs the RB 3% buff, so one can only assume the same applies the other way around.


EDIT: Quickly respec Arms to check, and the buff is indeed removed if you stance dance as Arms as well as Fury.

Ellóren
02-22-2011, 06:45 AM
So are you guys gemming or reforging for exp to get capped? I'm currently reforging to mastery. I've always been of the impression that reforging/enchanting/gemming for exp was bad, but seems now Exp to 26 is a great thing
To be honest, there seems to be so much expertise on gear these days that I've been reforging AWAY from it to avoid getting more than 26 because from that point on I really prefer Crit (and to an extent, Mastery).

JollyWarrior
02-22-2011, 09:17 AM
To be honest, there seems to be so much expertise on gear these days that I've been reforging AWAY from it to avoid getting more than 26 because from that point on I really prefer Crit (and to an extent, Mastery).

Hmmm my guild has a lot of tanks and so we rotate them (based on schedules etc. I.e. I Cant make sunday raids.) I've been gearing for tanking with DPS as my secondary focus. So if my gear lacks EXP ( sitting at 11 now) should I reforge til my gear improves?

marklar
02-22-2011, 01:45 PM
Hmmm my guild has a lot of tanks and so we rotate them (based on schedules etc. I.e. I Cant make sunday raids.) I've been gearing for tanking with DPS as my secondary focus. So if my gear lacks EXP ( sitting at 11 now) should I reforge til my gear improves?

yes, get expertise-capped.

Ghazkul
02-24-2011, 02:41 PM
Newer warrior here with Arms as my DPS spec. Since Slam no longer resets the swing timer (only pauses it from what I can tell) is a swing timer mod still recommended for optimal DPS? If so when should I/shouldn't I be doing a Slam (with regards to my swing timer, I understand that I should not delay a MS for a Slam ever, but I'm trying to figure out if there are better/worse times in a swing to do a Slam).

Thanks,
Ghazkul

Kazeyonoma
02-24-2011, 02:52 PM
you don't need a swing timer mod anymore.

you should be doing slam whenever you have an open gcd that isn't occupied by OP, MS, CS, or refreshing Rend.

Ghazkul
02-24-2011, 04:40 PM
thanks! one less addon to run :)

Ghazkul

Muffin Man
02-24-2011, 07:42 PM
It's not necessary anymore, but you can still use a swing timer to predict your rotation.

An example is if you have low rage and an open GCD. Should you slam or wait? A swing timer will let you know if you'll get an auto-attack (and hence rage) in time.

That's pretty advanced though, and I prefer just getting enough haste so that I don't really end up in this situation. But I'm also add-on adverse.

Ghazkul
02-24-2011, 08:29 PM
ahhhh, I never thought of it that way, ever since I disabled it, I have been rage starved a little bit every now and then. I chalked it up to bad RNG, but maybe I was subconsciously thinking about what you posted. Maybe I'll put it back in if this trend continues.

Disruptor
02-26-2011, 12:11 AM
it is bad and shouldn't be doing it. bnt should be used for aoe builds, not a single target build.

This might be wrong. I'm still experimenting but in fights without incoming damage you want to use bnt to reapply rend. With ashkandi and no rage income due to raid environment HS might be 0.5-1% dmg without CD-time. 1 of 3 DCs are timed with Recklessness so Incite loses value there. TC would be around 2.5-3% damage and crits proc DW and TC hits can proc other things ( like DMC:H ). And HS got pretty nerfed and its scaling is way worse than any other styles.

And imo playing arms without swing timer is like playing a caster without a cast bar. Yes rage management lost importance with cataclysm but it is still one of the most important things.

marklar
02-27-2011, 03:59 AM
This might be wrong. I'm still experimenting but in fights without incoming damage you want to use bnt to reapply rend. With ashkandi and no rage income due to raid environment HS might be 0.5-1% dmg without CD-time. 1 of 3 DCs are timed with Recklessness so Incite loses value there. TC would be around 2.5-3% damage and crits proc DW and TC hits can proc other things ( like DMC:H ). And HS got pretty nerfed and its scaling is way worse than any other styles.


but doesn't the rend application do more damage for less rage than thunderclap?

Disruptor
02-27-2011, 10:13 AM
but doesn't the rend application do more damage for less rage than thunderclap?
After using the TC glyph it costs 15 rage. It is awesome as long as you can't afford expertise cap.

Muffin Man
02-28-2011, 03:40 AM
but doesn't the rend application do more damage for less rage than thunderclap?

It's pretty close.

Using my toon, unbuffed TC is 2035 for 20 rage and Rend has an initial application of 672, so TC is already losing pretty significantly.

Then you throw in Trauma for a 30% dmg buff that TC doesn't get, which really evens it up.

Actually testing how rend refreshes is really interesting.

The time remaining resets, but the ticks don't strictly happen on 15-12-9, ect. They actually stay on the original timer.

So if you refresh with 1 second left, you'll end up ticking rend on 13-10-7-4-1-0 of the next timer. So actually you don't lose a clip a tick by refreshing with TC at all. Of course you wouldn't ever get that 6th tick back until you let rend fall off, but it does mean you can get 5 rend ticks in *and* refresh with TC if you want.

Also if you refresh rend with rend you don't get that initial damage, but you still don't lose the extra tick.

So, there could be some merit with what Disrupter's saying. This also has the advantage of keeping your TfB procs at a consistent 6 second apart, where letting rend fall off will start pushing them back in your rotation.

Disruptor
02-28-2011, 09:27 AM
There is a new mechanic with reapplication. Reapplying Rend at less than 3 seconds left will add this time to your new Rend. It does not matter if you reapply Rend with TC or Rend itself. You won't lose a Rend tick.

marklar
02-28-2011, 01:33 PM
Also if you refresh rend with rend you don't get that initial damage

yeah, that i would never do - it's either refresh with TC or let fall off and reapply with rend. i'll go back to trying it with TC, but i do think the glyph becomes mandatory if you're going to do that. 20 rage TC's are just too much.