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Atrosity
02-08-2011, 10:00 AM
Hey there, my guld just started raiding cata stuff, started with BoT and I'm sort of new to the official RL spot of a raid, I've always given insight if the RL asked it but never stright up given orders. I've been known to have a short fuse for stupidity or ignorance in a raid, call me elitist if you want but I don't see how people stand in fire like, it's RIGHT there at youur feet and DBM usually screams at you to move. Anyways, that's not the point of this thread, I just have a few questions about raid leading is all. This, for the msot part is our raid comp except for maybe the hunter being subbed for a rogue. Prot warrior (x2) Holy pally (x2) Holy Priest (x1) Survival Hunter (x1) Fire mage (x1) Shadow Priest (x1) Elemental shaman (x1) Frost DK (x1)

-How do I make it clear to people (without being rude)that if they don't improve, the raid doesn't impove and we don't progress?
-Should people be punished in some way for doing something stupid, if so to what extent?
-With this raid set up, would it be better to try another raid instead of BoT?
-Finally, pretty much it would be a group therapy session is all I can call it, pull the entire raid into vent and talk to them and take suggestions/comment/problems they are having. Is it a good idea or should I just be laughed at for thinking it?
PS: Anyother suggestions other raiders/raid leaders have found that work would be greatly appreciated and noted

Theotherone
02-08-2011, 01:09 PM
Learn from the master: http://overkills.informe.com/forum/how-juggernaut-learned-naxxramas-dt38.html

JK - actually we all have our own styles, I find people do better with positive reinforcement. Calling people out and embarrassing them is counter productive. I find giving a run down before the fight, then, if we wiped, focussing on what we could do better. Also, asking, "what went wrong" helps too; sometimes something as silly as wife aggro (although wife should never be told her aggro was silly) caused a distraction i.e. an outside RL force. Also, reminding people "we've done harder fights then this in the past, you all know what you're doing, coordinate and it will work out; if it doesn't we don't progess." Lastly, among the most important things is to know when to fold 'em; pack it in, call it a night and have people come back fresh the next day.

Personally, I can accept mistakes, but the same mistakes over and over and over again may require a private taking to and a replacement. It think it is unprofessional and shows a distinct lack of leadership skills to call someone out in a public setting.

Reev
02-08-2011, 01:19 PM
Learn from the master: http://overkills.informe.com/forum/how-juggernaut-learned-naxxramas-dt38.html

JK - actually we all have our own styles, I find people do better with positive reinforcement. Calling people out and embarrassing them is counter productive. I find giving a run down before the fight, then, if we wiped, focussing on what we could do better. Also, asking, "what went wrong" helps too; sometimes something as silly as wife aggro (although wife should never be told her aggro was silly) caused a distraction i.e. an outside RL force. Also, reminding people "we've done harder fights then this in the past, you all know what you're doing, coordinate and it will work out; if it doesn't we don't progess." Lastly, among the most important things is to know when to fold 'em; pack it in, call it a night and have people come back fresh the next day.

Personally, I can accept mistakes, but the same mistakes over and over and over again may require a private taking to and a replacement. It think it is unprofessional and shows a distinct lack of leadership skills to call someone out in a public setting.

I think more important than maintaining a positive environment is knowing your raiders. I have some raiders who respond very well to criticism, and are happy to have it and driven to perform better. I have other raiders who can't handle criticism and view it as a personal attack, and end up shutting down and getting pissed off. You have to handle those raiders differently. If you mollycoddle the one who likes criticism, he/she'll be bored or fail to feel challenged. If you criticize the one who can't take criticism, they'll feel attacked. Know what works for your raiders and your raid team as a whole.

I'll often check back through Skada after a wipe and try to find out why people died. Did the tank not receive any direct heals for too long? If not, is it because there was too much raid damage going around? Was there too much raid damage because people were standing in fires? I try to use the objective evidence as much as possible, and show people how their mistakes cause a wipe to occur so that they go, "Oh yeah, maybe the fire didn't kill me, but it did take heals away from the tank, wiping us. I'll be more careful on that next time."

Katzazi
02-08-2011, 04:01 PM
I think, every RL needs to find their own style. If you were assigned the pot of RL by any means (even people just following you into a raid can be called like this) then people trust you and your styl. They want to raid with YOU. So it has be you doing the talking (or whatever).

If you feel it's better for you to have such a meeting once a month because it would help to channel bad feelings or stuff, do it. Well, most raids probably don't do stuff like that and probably don't need stuff like that. But well every group is different, every person is different. We don't know your players.

Anyway. What works good is some kind of good-cop, bad-cop principle. At least if you think that you have people who need some kind of treatment to perform as they should. Good cop should be the one doing most of the stuff. Bad cop is best played by someone else (often an MT but can be anybody) who does not speak much, but if he speaks just points to the sore point and is not afraid to call people out. So in most cases you have a positive feedback running, but if needed you also have the other kind.

Btw: Either way you do it, you should have other people assigned to important stuff. That don't have to be fixed posts, but you will never be able to call out everything, to see everything and to coordinate eveything, without getting a burnout syndrom soon. Integrate others in the organizational stuff. Pre raid, in raid and maybe post raid, too.

Kanzer
02-08-2011, 04:12 PM
Open constructive criticism is never a bad thing and should be encouraged. However, its important to realize that some people won't respond well if you are constantly jumping down their throat. At the same time however, you need to make your stance clear and let them know you aren't going to tolerate inconsistency.

I've been raid leading for a few years now, and I can honestly say my style has adapted with each group I've had. The foundation of it is I let them know as plain as day constant mistakes and inconsistence isn't acceptable and waste everyone's time. Sometimes its warranted to get stern and even angry, sometimes its not. But it's never warranted to be belligerent and insulting. Or to cuss people out.

It can be a very frustrating job, and overall you need to realize you're going to make mistakes and you're going to piss people off unintentionally. Just take it in stride, let people know your intentions are to make each pull better not to make them feel like shit. But don't be overly apologetic, overall you want to have a strong stance, control your raid, don't let your raiders control it. Be compassionate when necessary, be stern when necessary, you'll learn when to be which with your particular group in time. Expect mistakes and just keep moving onward.

Timberton
02-10-2011, 06:51 AM
-How do I make it clear to people (without being rude)that if they don't improve, the raid doesn't impove and we don't progress?like this:
hay guise..etc..etc... if you don't improve, the raid doesn't improve and we don't progress



-Should people be punished in some way for doing something stupid, if so to what extent? Only if repeating it, again, and, again. Look into EPGP for loot distribution, add GP for bad stuff


-With this raid set up, would it be better to try another raid instead of BoT?Rotate, first 1-2 bosses in BoT, first in conclave, first 1-2 in BWL. As raid improves, go deeper. In my guild, we've been clearing Council of wind, BoT and 1-2-3 bosses in BwL on reset day. leaving the rest of the week to work on nefarion for our 12/12. You maybe can't do that yet, take it a step at a time.


-Finally, pretty much it would be a group therapy session is all I can call it, pull the entire raid into vent and talk to them and take suggestions/comment/problems they are having. Is it a good idea or should I just be laughed at for thinking it?Doubt is a good idea. You will be contacted privately if there's something amiss.

Theotherone
02-10-2011, 07:51 AM
like this:
Only if repeating it, again, and, again. Look into EPGP for loot distribution, add GP for bad stuff



No like this "THAT'S 50 DKP MINUS."