PDA

View Full Version : PST - Episode 15



Lore
02-04-2011, 06:24 PM
ulXcPApn4AU

This week:

Why do I have to fill out an application to join a guild?
Why do players expect you to watch video encounter guides?
Is 10man heroic content harder than 25man?
What's the idea behind Chaos Orbs?
and more!

Bitur
02-04-2011, 07:19 PM
No Legendary this week? I need my Legendary fix. :(

Fetzie
02-04-2011, 07:30 PM
It is my experience as a long time guild officer that those who are prepared to spend 20 minutes on a guild application are more likely to prepare for raids than those who are "hey I wanna join your guild, inv pl0x". If they can't be bothered spending the effort to get IN the guild, what is the likelihood that they will spend time outside of the raids farming consumables, looking up boss fights and researching their class?

Devotii
02-05-2011, 11:27 AM
No Legendary this week? I need my Legendary fix. :(

It was just an afterparty due to their website being down and Gary being on the phone/busy all day.
Lore and MikeB ran an afterparty.

Good PST episode :)

uglie
02-05-2011, 01:43 PM
On chaos orbs. IMO i like them being bop. Crafters need a way to make money from their professions as well. As far as them being expensive, I think one reason is due to the random dungeon finder pugs mostly not being able to grasp the mechanics of some of the fights. I.E. bad pugs make getting to the chaos orbs harder than what it should be thus sending up the price of the orbs.
TL;DR if everyone could complete every heroic in 30 minutes without a single wipe the price of orbs would more than likely go down.

DragonFireKai
02-05-2011, 04:13 PM
Here's the issue with 10man heroics vs 25 man heroics. Blizzard dropped the ball with tuning, and are slowly fixing things. There are only two encounters that were harder on 25 man mode, but both of those encounters, Al'akir and Acendant Council, had the mechanics that made them more difficult on 25 man nerfed harshly to rebalance them to be more in line with the 10 man difficulty. However, every fight, with the possible exceptions of Atramedes and Sinestra, are significantly more difficult on 10 man heroic than 25 man heroic.

Halfus Wyrmbreaker requires a ten man raid to have only 40% of their raid as DPS, and without a mage, which is emminently possible in a 10 man setting, requires jumping through absurd hoops to survive the furious roars, such as race changing to orc and socketing a PvP meta gem on an interrupter, who then MUST be kept alive the whole fight. Alliance side guilds have it even harder, they have to bring enough paladins to HoP an interrupter for each furious roar. The lack of DPS makes the enrage timer much harsher.

Double Dragons originally had the exact same adds spawning on 10 man as on 25 man, at the same rate, with the same health, doing the same damage. While the health got nerfed, the damage output, and spawn rate remain the same, and as such,the odds of someone being targeted by 3 or more rift blasts goes from an unfortunate coincidence, as it is on 25 man, to a raid wiping certainty on 10 man.

Cho'gall has the same number of adds spawning in ten man as in 25 man, and the raid is not garunteed to have an AoE stun/silence/fear, to stop worship.

Nobody has seen sinestra on ten man, so we can't comment as to her difficulty.

Magmaw is currently unkillable on ten man heroic. A ten man raid cannot devote 3-4 members of the raid to kite the skeletons while still having sufficient DPS to handle the parasites and put any DPS on the boss. The skeletons have too much health and spawn too quickly for killing them to be a viable strategy at this gear level.

Omnitron Defense System is luck based on ten man heroic. If a ten man raid gets magmatron and Electron up together, 4 healers is insufficient to heal through the Shadow Conductor+Defense Protocol+Chain Lightning Combo, which does as much damage on 10 man as on 25 man. Once again, this is another encounter that forces 10 man raids to use only 40% of the raid as DPS, which is akin to requiring 25 man raids to bring 13 healers. This further complicates matters by requiring 2 interrupters for arcanotron, out of 4 members of the raid who are hit capped. If an interrupt is missed, someone dies, if an interrupter dies, then a tank or healer will likely need to step into the rotation,and drastically increases the chance of missing an interrupt.

Maloriak originally had abberations with 1.8mil health on 10H, and 2.5mil on 25H. That meant that DPSers on 10H had to pull 2.3X the DPS of their 25 man counterparts to ensure the abberations died. The only thing that allowed him to be killed before the health nerfs was the fact that his enrage timer was bugged, and you could go 3 green phases.

Chimearon eats your DPS 20% at a time in phase two, rather than 6% at a time, and his health differential is not large enough to compensate for that. Furthermore, 10 man raids have fewer CDs to handle quick turnover on fueds.

Atramedes is the most bugged fight in the game. No one has released a legit kill vid. For the Horde even claimed that no one in their raid was capable of taking a screenshot. Paragon blamed lag for not having a vid. Ensidia's kill shot didn't even have the dragon in the picture, and Method's Kill Shot was a laughable attempt to cover up an exploitative strat. No one, on either difficulty, has gained a meaningful, legitimate kill.

Nobody's seen Nefarian on 10H, due to the aforemention problems with Magmaw.

Conclave's adds require a special build on a frost DK in order to handle them, or a Demo Locktoburn them down, however,with the Demo lock nerfs in the upcoming patch,it remains to be seen if that will remain viable.

All of that adds up to at a minimum, 9 fights that are significantly more difficult on 10H than 25H. The idea that the top guilds are only running 25 mans isn't legitimate. Ensidia attempted to beat everyone to the punch by taking their ten best raiders, and they got bounced pretty harshly. The next week, they went back to 25 mans, and immediately downed 4 more heroic encounters. Modest, a top 10 strict guild, was built by members of Exodus and another top 10US guild (I want to say Vigil), and they're stuck at V&T and Magmaw. Spike Flail, another great raiding guild that was consistantly on the forefront of progression switched to ten mans, and has been unable to keep up with guilds that they were whipping on progression since their inception but chose to remain running 25s.

Ten man Heroics are extremely overtuned, and are currently the hardest content available in the game.

Giliandrix
02-06-2011, 07:58 AM
I just think that it's ridiculous that the top 10man guild on WoWprogress is still 6/13. Even if you argue that the hardcore guilds all stayed 25s, it still curious that there is a such a huge discrepancy between the two.

It would make sense for 10mans to be stymied on the harder end bosses but the fact is that they're only 6/13 and it's been this way for weeks. The best 25mans sure, only a handful of them are 10+/13, but considering the #s of them that are above 6/13, while the top 10man guild can't even crack it.

Surely 10man heroics are harder.

Kemanorel
02-06-2011, 10:59 AM
watching videos adds more depth of information to the ability tooltips et cetera found places like wowpedia or wowhead. I have run a large number of fight strategies that bear little resemblance to the videos here. The best strategy for a fight is of course, the one that your group can successfully defeat the boss with the most chance of success.

ECHOHART
02-06-2011, 07:15 PM
First of all I would like to say that I believe wowprogress and other sites like it are not reporting kills properly, and this may be due to how guilds are Clearing the content. From Tues to Thurs each week we run our 25 man raid, after that we split into 10 man groups and clear whats left. Currently with the Combination of 10 and 25 groups we are 12/13. With only Nefarian to kill. I also think this cause ranking issues as well. But then again I might also be speaking out of my ass....been known to do that at times :)

As for requiring people to fill out a guild app. As a Co-Guild Leader I have come across many players who not only refuse to fill out a app, but also refuse to even read up/watch videos on a boss fight, expecting the raid leader to provide a hand holding explanation.

I currently have mixed feeling about the way Blizzard has chosen to go with Chaos Orbs, but I expect that somewhere down the line, they (Blizzard) will do a backflip and make them available for purchase from a vendor or let anyone roll on them and make them BOE.

DragonFireKai
02-06-2011, 11:47 PM
First of all I would like to say that I believe wowprogress and other sites like it are not reporting kills properly, and this may be due to how guilds are Clearing the content. From Tues to Thurs each week we run our 25 man raid, after that we split into 10 man groups and clear whats left. Currently with the Combination of 10 and 25 groups we are 12/13. With only Nefarian to kill. I also think this cause ranking issues as well. But then again I might also be speaking out of my ass....been known to do that at times :)

Why don't you try V&T and Magmaw on 10 heroic, and see how they stack up vs the 25 man encounters? You can't chalk up the percieved difficulty gap as a construct of a poorly coded ranking site. It goes beyond wowprogress, look at any other ranking site, and you'll the same numbers. Most damning is to look at world of logs. There are more logs uploaded of Heroic Nefarian 25 kills (10), then there are of Heroic ten Magmaw (0), V&T (0), or acendant council (0). If you get any of those encounters down, you'd have a legitimate claim to world firsts on the only content remaining to not be killed.

krilz
02-07-2011, 08:06 AM
I have to agree with DragonFireKai on H:10.

My guild switched to 10's since we had huge issues in WotLK to get 25 people together for one night and progression has been much better. We now have 2 groups where one is now progressing in heroics and the other one is finishing up normals. So far the heroic group has killed Chimaeron and spent a few hours each on Halfus and Maloriak and I can tell you this, right off the bat: 10-man... is extremely unforgiving.

The amount of AoE you have to put out on Halfus makes it very hard, especially for us who only has 2 ranged dps (and one of them, the shadow priest, has gone healer so far). We HAVE to have a fire mage and demo warlock in order to have any chance. Maloriak yesterday ended up at 27% at best try which sounds great and all, but pretty much as soon as someone dies... it's game over. The interrupts has to be perfect or it's a wipe. The tank cooldowns has to be used at the exact moments or it's a wipe. Chimaeron was a huge RNG fest. If two feuds come after each other, it significantly increases the difficulty of the fight compared to one feud followed by another after 2-3 massacres. Especially when you're getting close to the 20% mark, you're begging not to get a feud just before so at least one tank has cd's ready for Mortality. Also if the tanks can get avoid streaks, you're in good shape, otherwise... you guessed it, it's a wipe.

The overall feel I have when reading forums and hearing different opinions is that 10's are harder by far. Some fights are downright unkillable by strict 10-guilds and it's hard to progress unless you're doing insane stacking (which not all guilds can do, especially 10's). I'm up for a good challenge but when the encounter favors stacking and downright stupid setups you might as well not even bother trying (such as the dreaded 3/4 combo of tanks/healers). We're still going, hoping Blizzard will realize their errors and retune the fights to make them a little bit easier to strict 10-guilds but as it looks now... we might not finish the content in time before the second tier which is a shame (and to give you a sort of mark of how good we are: our Nefarian 10 kill was top500 in EU according to wowprogress.com).

Roarc
02-07-2011, 02:58 PM
I love your web-casts but I don't understand what you base your notion there are no major issues between 10's and 25's balance? 10's are completely unbalanced more or less at the moment.. Blizzard has hot-fixed a few issues but looking at it as a whole things are still very unfavorable on the verge of broken for 10-man raids (and guilds). We swapped back from 2x10's to 1x25 due to the ridiculous requirements for a lot of the fights and even given equal level of difficult, stacking class X, Y or Z is easier in a 25 man scenario than a 10 man. 10 man guilds will in the end gear slower and thus have no possibility of being competitive anyway even if they meet similar requirements in term of group-comps.

A lot of current bosses in 10-man suffer from the "Sartharion 3-drake syndrome".

- They favor certain classes a lot
- You're dealing with a similar event as 25 man which feels as it's tuned for 25 man but assume 10 people can deal with the same encounter-mechanics (ex. finding interupts or raid CD's is much harder).
c) This might force you to stack odd setups for the given raid. A 10 man with 3 tanks / 4 healers / 3 dps is like a 25 man with 8 tanks / 10 healers / 7 dps, for example.

From swapping from 10's to 25's most encounters feel easier even if a lesser majority of the group knows what they do. Both models have different "what's hard" but adding it all up - 10's feels like much harder content to beat in the end in it's current state.

I'm not trivializing 25's but 10-mans have major issues I'm not sure blizzard can overcome anytime soon. There are simple things like equal loot / player and such but the class stacking / raid-comp requirements.. They really have to look into their numbers a few times more.

There is a massive thread regarding this topic on the official EU-forums that sums this issue up very well. They mainly focus on hard modes being unbalanced but you can spot the issues in normals as well (here rewards at least are equal).

Marvelo
02-08-2011, 03:51 AM
Our guild isn't hardcore as many, we're currently 7/12 (working on cho'gall, atremedes/chimeron, al'akir) on normal on 10 man. What I am personally finding the trouble with 10 mans to be is how Blizzard has tuned them identically to 25. For instance, many bosses have abilities that must be interrupted and are cast ridiculously often (like every 6 seconds). Examples include Cho'gall's adds, Halfus' shadow nova, Arcanotron's arcane annihilator. These abilities are a lot easier to interrupt when you have over 3x the dps to interrupt them, but in a 10 man perfect execution of this is trying to say the least. I'm a resto shaman, ele off-spec and I'm almost always forced to go ele for these fights just because shaman have the most reliable ranged interrupt on the shortest cooldown. And even then I literally have to be flawless in how I do it, because if I don't interrupt the cast in the very beginning of the cast every time, I get to the point where I can't keep up and have to call out in vent for help. And what this does to my dps, you can only imagine.

feralminded
02-08-2011, 07:22 AM
Our guild isn't hardcore as many, we're currently 7/12 (working on cho'gall, atremedes/chimeron, al'akir) on normal on 10 man. What I am personally finding the trouble with 10 mans to be is how Blizzard has tuned them identically to 25. For instance, many bosses have abilities that must be interrupted and are cast ridiculously often (like every 6 seconds). Examples include Cho'gall's adds, Halfus' shadow nova, Arcanotron's arcane annihilator. These abilities are a lot easier to interrupt when you have over 3x the dps to interrupt them, but in a 10 man perfect execution of this is trying to say the least. I'm a resto shaman, ele off-spec and I'm almost always forced to go ele for these fights just because shaman have the most reliable ranged interrupt on the shortest cooldown. And even then I literally have to be flawless in how I do it, because if I don't interrupt the cast in the very beginning of the cast every time, I get to the point where I can't keep up and have to call out in vent for help. And what this does to my dps, you can only imagine.

YMMV, but my priest is in a 25 man that has downed everything but nef and my warrior is in a 10man that's 9/12 and I can safely say normal mode 10s are significantly easier. I understand there are major issues with HMs, but specifically speaking about 10s it's been a much MUCH smoother ride. Primarily it comes down to personal responsibility being much easier to meter out and guage in 10s. If you need an interrupt you assign someone to do it. If the spell doesn't get interrupted its very clear what needs correcting. This is the advantage in 10s over 25s. Now on HMs that doesn't appear to matter as the encounters are just poorly tuned but for the normals at least I'll take personal responsibility over almost anything else.

Roarc
02-08-2011, 08:30 AM
Primarily it comes down to personal responsibility being much easier to meter out and guage in 10s. If you need an interrupt you assign someone to do it. If the spell doesn't get interrupted its very clear what needs correcting. This is the advantage in 10s over 25s.
I'd say the opposite. The problem is you need like 2-3 interupts. In 10's you're more or less forced to have tanks interrupt and on a boss like Nefarian - have healers CC. This leads to unreliable classes / specs being required to do a job or stack stats they normally wouldn't go for (i.e. hit for tanks, CC-resists for healers due to lack of hits as well). 10's and 25's output virtually the same damage per player (10's where when we shifted to 25's out-puting MORE damage per player on average, go figure there). I like the added responsibility in 10's, that's actually one of the major features why I want to play that model, but I don't like the fact in it's current state it makes some content much harder due to RNG or poor encounter balance.

You have fight-mechanics like stuns at Nefarian. Chances of RNG failing a run in 10's is much greater than in 25's (i.e. healer stunned and tank tanking burst damage). These mechanics I'm not sure how Blizzard even can balance between 10's and 25's if you keep them the same in both versions of the fight. 1 stunned healer in 10's is like 2 or 3 stunned healers in 25's.

Some fights can be easier in 10's than 25's if you generalize mechanics. Most of the fights today are the opposite however - esp. in hard-modes where you push the limits of the current tier.

Also Feralminded, I don't know if it's the case but you are also comparing two different groups of people aren't you? I.e. 10 solid players will make content feel smoother than 25 iffy players. As stated, might not be the case. That said, it's interesting to hear people who feel 10's are easier than 25's though cause that feels like it's not the norm.

feralminded
02-08-2011, 08:58 AM
I've already conceded I haven't seen HM's but the consensus there is that there's major issues in 10m so I'm willing to agree with that at least. However as I said in normals I feel 10s are much easier if only to organize. Indeed my 10 man is pretty tight and there's a lot of slop in the 25 man but still I feel like its far easier to organize and analyze the 10 man as well. Whenever a failure happens in the 25 man raid it takes me a solid 10 minutes of parsing logs/recount to figure it out and even then it can be impossible. In 10s its always immediately clear and thus each pull progress/improvement is simplified and happens quickly.

Now whether that translates into easier fights or not is obviously open to question. I concur some of these fights are overtuned in 10 man and certainly seem to require odd setups. That said we explicitly crafted our 10man to be as flexible as possible just for that reason (had lots of people change classes back in october/november) so we usually can swing the right makeup. I also don't mind swapping in different gear for specific fights if necessary. So far it hasn't been (we have a shaman, interrupts are usually "solved"), but still I expect we'll have to leverage our flexibility more once we hit Hard Modes.

Again my comment was strictly about normal modes which my 10 man has found to be fun and not too frustrating. 10s are just clearly easier to organize and analyze ... I guess that's my only cogent point. Whether that translates into an easier/harder difficulty ... on normal modes ... I dunno. Seems a wash to me, again only on normal modes. Can't say that enough, I acknowledge hard modes are messed up and I expect them to be retuned soon enough.

Trexokor
02-08-2011, 09:06 AM
The differences between 10 man and 25 man difficulty come purely down to logistics. Unfortunately, differences between the 10 and 25 man versions of fights tend to exist only in damage numbers, how many adds are spawned, and how many targets something hits. Even then, Blizzard is very stiff about it.

Blizzard needs to be much more active in changing how abilities work from one raid size to another. A great example is a fight like Ascendant Council. Specifically normal mode, since I'm referring to phase 3 which hasn't been reached much if at all in 10 heroic. Electric Instability currently favors ranged players, and chains at about 10 yards to players around you. On 25 man, it's difficult or impossible for everyone to reach the boss or be in range of everyone for healing while it the Monstrosity is being pulled around. However, the amount of damage going out is just as strong in 25 man as it is in 10 man. You're left depending on melee to beat down the boss while your ranged mostly twiddle their thumbs and your healers keep them alive as valid Instability targets, for fear of not having enough at range and the melee starting to get hit.

A fix, in this example, is to have the 10 man version of Electric Instability have a larger chain range than the 25 man version. In this particular example, my vote would go to 10 yards in 10 man, 5 yards in 25 man, and tune accordingly. Similar problems exist with the 3 Lightning Rods in phase 2.

When it comes to adds, Blizzard needs to keep in mind what your damage dealers need to be doing when adds come out. Poison Bombs are a great example of this. There are 5 in 25 man, and 3 in 10 man. That's all well and good if they're tuned with the right health, except that 3 bombs on 10 people means 30% of your raid can't be near their respective bomb. There's a fair chance that one of those 3 raiders is going to be a melee DPS, and a smaller chance that 2 of the 3 raiders will be. If it's 2/5 of your DPS, you now have 3 DPS on 3 bombs. In comparison, having *all 5* Poison Bombs on melee in 25 man still gives you 11 DPS to 5 adds. Not only is the chance of that happening so remote, but with how the encounter works, the 25 man raid would still clean up the adds in a timely manner.

The same principal goes for Cho'gall's little adds that spawn out of puddles, and Worshipping.

In general, I think the following needs to happen:

- For range effects, a smaller range should be required in 25 man.
- For adds, a proportionately smaller number of adds should be spawned in 10 man.
- For effects that hit a static amount of targets, either less targets or less damage needs to be done in 10 man.
- For interrupt requirements, the previous model of requiring 1 good interrupter in 10 man, and 2 in 25 man should be adhered to.
- On effects that disable players from performing their role, the inactive time should be shortened in 10 man.
- On a special fight like Chimaeron, he should begin to attack slower in phase 2, or the second phase should start at a different percentage point.

Tuning doesn't just have to be mean damage numbers and health numbers. Other things can be tuned without fundamentally changing the encounter or trivializing it.

Roarc
02-09-2011, 02:10 AM
Just cause it's easier to identify who did wrong or what went wrong in 10's compared to 25's doesn't mean they are easier. It means they are easier to analyze.

Patch 4.06 seem to have adjusted things a bit but a lot of the changes are both for 10's and 25's.

As Trex pointed out it's hard to balance equal mechanics for 10 or 25 players. I think for it to be more even, blizzard has to redesign things a bit for both raid-sizes (with out trivializing either or).

ytram
02-09-2011, 12:41 PM
I would just like to add a fast note

If you consider crafting proff blacksmithing/tailoring/leatherworking yes I agree with you but if you consider crafting proff blacksmithing/leatherworking/tailoring/alchemy/jewelcrafting/enchanting/inscription then you are wrong.

I currently have alchemy/jewelcrafting maxxed out on a 76 pally and the last two weeks I`ve been making around 25k gold. And then I play around 15min every day on that character. Crafting proffs can make huge money. Especially jewelcrafting.