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ayanae
02-04-2011, 04:53 AM
I keep getting confused with the bunch of people telling what should I gem and reforge and what should I not. Others say I should get hit and expertise capped before stacking in avoidance and others say it's the other way around.

I tend to have some problems with aggro, especially if some fury warrior keeps going zerg on every pack. No problems with single targets though.

I've only been doing hc dungeons but I'm looking forward to raiding with my guild mates. We're talking about probably next week.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/daggerspine/ayanae/

I've been playing wow for a year and I feel like I'm just as lost as when I first started. I'm starting to think women really belong in the kitchen and not on teh internets. Brb, gonna put my apron on.

Synapse
02-04-2011, 05:39 AM
Your threat stats are expertise(dodgecap) > hit > expertise(parrycap) >>>>>> strength.
On survivability, mastery is master (pun intended), so reforge mastery from avoidance and threat when you can.
Oh, and when picking between dodge and parry, you can rely on "pick whichever % is lowest to improve" when you can. Reforge away from the highest of both, reforge into the lowest of both.

On your threat problems...does it happen after threat is established, or only at pulls and aggro dumps? On the latter, there's not much to do other than asking the guys to wait a second (really, only 1 second makes a world of difference) before starting.

Threat rotations are somewhat flexible: Crusader Strike every other gcd, weaving in judgments, avenger's shield, holy wrath and shield of the righteous or word of glory at 3 holy power. Aoe replaces crusader strike with hammer of the righteous and mix in whatever aoe (don't use consecration on low mana :p). Seal of truth is your threat seal.

Your best threat talents are Wrath of the Lightbringer, Sacred Duty, Reckoning, Rule of Law, Crusade, Seals of the Pure and Grand Crusader, typically on that order.

In rough lines, I think that's it.

Stephanius
02-04-2011, 06:16 AM
In addition to what Synapse said, I have the following points for your consideration:

- metagem not current, get 81 sta + block or armor. Block is marginally better.
- talent setup is weird. I'd shift points from the holy tree and the consecration talent to the retribution tree to get imp judgment and persuit of justice. imp judgement is a strong and useful opener, since it works at long range and immediately debuffs the target. persuit of justice means getting out of the fire faster. always handy.
- hit and expertise do increase your threat, BUT only really help at the beginning of a fight. During a fight the passive attack power buff all tanks gets does away with TPS problems. However, the start of a fight is when most avoidable aggro problems happen. It's much easier for melee dps to be 10% ahead of the tank in threat if 10% is 2k damage at the beginning of the fight, compared to ridiculously high values later. That is why you see people recommending both not to bother and other people bothering. Make no mistake though, surviving is your priority. You can easily teach your DPS warrior friend how treat works by just letting him die as many times as it takes to let the idea sink in.

Stephanius
02-04-2011, 06:20 AM
One more thing - you may want to look into tanking with Seal of Insight instead of Seal of Truth. Seal of Truth does more damage and provides expertise via the glyph, but Seal of Insight means never being out of mana and continously healing yourself. Never being out of mana means you can just weave moves in only limited by cooldowns. Having your private HOT running at all times when you are in combat is especially valuable whenever things are tough, healer down, not that much gear or similar circumstances.

Just try it if you haven't already. =]

ayanae
02-04-2011, 06:25 AM
Your threat stats are expertise(dodgecap) > hit > expertise(parrycap) >>>>>> strength.
On survivability, mastery is master (pun intended), so reforge mastery from avoidance and threat when you can.
Oh, and when picking between dodge and parry, you can rely on "pick whichever % is lowest to improve" when you can. Reforge away from the highest of both, reforge into the lowest of both.

..So there IS a specific dodge/parry cap?
(How come no one ever told me)

Stephanius
02-04-2011, 06:29 AM
Synapse is referring to Expertise's effect on the boss's chance to dodge or parry. If you mouse over the value in your character window, you can see that one is higher than the other. At 26 Expertise you've reached the first - which is why that is called soft capped since every further point then provides less benefit - at 52 Expertise you've reached the second - which is the point where every additional point of expertise does exactly nothing.

Synapse
02-04-2011, 06:37 AM
And towards the avoidance, it's not exact, but there are diminishing returns.
For example: If you have 13% parry and 10% dodge, gaining 1% parry is more expensive than gaining 1% dodge. Thus you try to increase the lower and, when trading, trade away from the higher.

klausi
02-04-2011, 06:45 AM
I just twinked my toon this week to 85 and was worried about threat in general, but neither with epic decked guildmates nor randoms it's a problem. Mark skull and if anyone is impatient there are two taunts on a laughable short cooldown of 8 seconds all the time plus hand of protection/salvation.

Threat shouldn't be an issue at all. I tank with seal of insight and a more raid oriented healing specc (0/31/10), just pull with exorcism on the nuke target and use your captain america shield on the runby. After that it's rather simple, use every global you have. There are more than enough abilities to never stop mashing the buttons. If the fury still pulls aggro every second pull start rethinking about your rotation and abilites. Do you use inquisition at all? Wrath first instead of consecration due to it's higher snap aggro etc.

Dedic
02-04-2011, 08:56 AM
If a warrior uses charge on a freshly pulled mob, he's going to pull it off of you (interrupts seem to generate the most threat). As getting dps to back off in any way is no longer possible in cata, the only thing you can really do is save your taunt til after they charge.

ayanae
02-04-2011, 09:55 AM
I still didn't quite get it. Do I need to cap threat like, NOW? I read a blue post about all paladin specs getting Rebuke. And I don't wanna risk missing an interrupt by not having exp and hit. Should I save the capping for later and concentrate on avoidance?

ayanae
02-04-2011, 10:08 AM
Btw, it's nice that people here actually help instead of yelling random offensive stuff... I thank you for that!

Synapse
02-04-2011, 10:48 AM
No, not really. Typically if you want a high-threat fight, you keep spare dps pieces to mix with the normal tanking gear, but in general the content doesn't call for it. Aggro dumps and early threat are the most sensitive bits but that just requires you to be smart about what to use to retain their attention (for example, holding off a 3hp stack to hit ShoR as soon as threat dumps when you know they are near)
Rebuke won't need expertise/hit at all, so don't worry about that particular bit.

Dedic
02-04-2011, 10:52 AM
Well, you won't hold threat or interrupt anything if you're dead. Right now at least, it's all about survival -- and it isn't easy to stay alive anymore in heroics/raids. So the general consensus is to ignore hit/crit/exp and focus on mastery/avoidance. You should think about what classes to have in your group based on the instance you're running. I like having a warrior I trust around for the quick interrupts. As a tank, you probably shouldn't be focusing on interrupts even when we get rebuke, but rather act as backup interrupts if the dps misses one or things go bad. In those cases, you missing an interrupt isn't why you wiped. But if you die, that's going to cause a wipe.

Stephanius
02-04-2011, 11:14 AM
I still didn't quite get it. Do I need to cap threat like, NOW? I read a blue post about all paladin specs getting Rebuke. And I don't wanna risk missing an interrupt by not having exp and hit. Should I save the capping for later and concentrate on avoidance?

You don't need to cap hit and expertise, not to mention do it before you shore up your effective health (armor and health) or avoidance (dodge, parry, mastery).

I personally picked up hit and expertise because I enjoy having reliable moves. Without hit and expertise you'll miss roughly a fifth or 20 percent of your moves. That can also mean that you'll miss a bunch of moves in a row. If you miss one or more moves at the beginning of a fight, things will go sideways unless either you or the DPS guys react quickly.

In the same way that a steady health bar thanks to our shield mastery cushioning blows is preferred, stable and reliable threat is a bonus as well.

Tank gearing, gemming and enchanting has always been about a balance between effective health, avoidance and threat. Which balance is right for you depends on the content you are facing and the issues you are dealing with regarding the players you regularly group with.

cptwafflez
02-04-2011, 11:45 AM
If I ever have problems holding aggro due to high dps, I mark. Skull and X. If they pull from AOE then that's why you have taunts. Use Shield to establish aggro comfortably on Skull before you start spending HP on Word of Glory. Healers are there to keep you up, WoG is there to help them, not the end all solution.

If you are still having problems after everything, shoot me a PM and i'll make a video of my rotation in dungeons and go through an explanation of what I do in certain situations.

sifuedition
02-04-2011, 03:43 PM
Without hit and expertise you'll miss roughly a fifth or 20 percent of your moves. That can also mean that you'll miss a bunch of moves in a row.

I think you are overestimating the amount of avoided attacks. With 0% hit, you stand to miss 8% against a level 88 mob, which is really only a raid boss. With 0 expertise, you stand to be dodged 6.5% or parried 14%, again, only on a raid boss.

While that does eat up 28.5% of the combat table, I am not sure it's possible to have both numbers at 0%. I haven't done any research, but I believe the average is less than 20% combined chance of a failed attack.

Additionally, the OP has not stated the context. If they are referring to a raid boss, then our assumptions hold. If they are mostly concerned with trash and/or heroics, those numbers go drastically down (less avoided attacks).

ayanae
02-04-2011, 07:00 PM
...the OP has not stated the context. If they are referring to a raid boss, then our assumptions hold. If they are mostly concerned with trash and/or heroics, those numbers go drastically down (less avoided attacks).

I'm really looking forward to the new cata raids so yeah, I'm talking about raid bosses and I wanna get my stats all ready for my first encounter.

I started playing during WotLK so after a year of randomly smashing my hands on the keyboard I suddenly have to THINK what move should I use next etc.

ayanae
02-05-2011, 07:54 PM
Okay now I've tried to update my stats. Could someone be so kind to do a check up? :))

Linkie
02-07-2011, 05:16 AM
Talents: Put points from Eye for an Eye into Rule of Law.

Glyphs: Get rid of glyph of divine plea and jugdement, there's no reason to ever use them. I never use the consecration glyph either. Which you should put in depends on the encounter you are doing at the time.

Gear:
Change your meta to 81 stam and 2% armor.
Get the stamina enchant to chest.
Get the dodge enchant on wrists.
Mastery enchant on hands.
Get rid of expertise gem on belt.
Get mastery enchant on boots.
Reforge hit to mastery on 2nd ring.
Get mastery/stam or pure mastery gem on your relic.

Else: Get proper gems. Balance out your parry and dodge RATING. In this case, reforge some dodge to parry. Generally, parry should be ~1% higher than dodge.

Katzazi
02-07-2011, 06:13 AM
Balance out your parry and dodge RATING. In this case, reforge some dodge to parry. Generally, parry should be ~1% higher than dodge.

We are speaking about paladins here. as far as I know they have nothing that makes parry better than dodge. Warriors have. Warriors try to have parry a little bit higher because of that. But paladins don't have anything. So since both do the same and both have the same diminishing returns (as someone mentioned before) it's best to have them as close together as possible.

You will have more strenght on gear, so you get more strength than agi from kings. Strength adds some parry rating, Agi adds some dodge rating. Because of this you should always consider the values when buffed. So it's ok if parry is slightly below dodge.

Linkie
02-07-2011, 07:21 AM
We are speaking about paladins here. as far as I know they have nothing that makes parry better than dodge. Warriors have. Warriors try to have parry a little bit higher because of that. But paladins don't have anything. So since both do the same and both have the same diminishing returns (as someone mentioned before) it's best to have them as close together as possible.


That's why I said the RATING should be the same. In this tier, this ends up being ~1% higher parry than dodge.

Vigilant
02-07-2011, 10:20 PM
We are speaking about paladins here. as far as I know they have nothing that makes parry better than dodge. Warriors have. Warriors try to have parry a little bit higher because of that. But paladins don't have anything. So since both do the same and both have the same diminishing returns (as someone mentioned before) it's best to have them as close together as possible.

You will have more strenght on gear, so you get more strength than agi from kings. Strength adds some parry rating, Agi adds some dodge rating. Because of this you should always consider the values when buffed. So it's ok if parry is slightly below dodge.

I have read that it is actually the opposite, namely that you gain more dodge from raid buffs than you gain parry, just due to the respective conversion factors of agility and strength, which is why the generic advice is for paladins to keep parry ~ 1% higher than dodge. However, when its all said and done, if your dodge and parry are within the ballpark of each other, you're talking about +/- a few tenths of a percent of avoidance lost to diminishing returns if you haven't done it completely optimally, so close enough is good enough.

ayanae
02-11-2011, 08:04 AM
I like to think my avoidances are quite all right now, except of the enchants and gems. And now I need to ask, should I get hit and expertise enchants and gems? I've noticed my survivability is much better now and healers don't need to heal me with their asses on fire. But now I have an aggro problem. It seems if I have to tank more than 3 elites it's gonna be impossible.
(sorry for my bad grammar, I wrote this in a hurry)

sifuedition
02-11-2011, 01:03 PM
I would not recommend it. I would not even look at my hit or expertise until the situation warrants it. I can only think of two situations:

1. You are the only interrupter available and it's critical. Like shadownova on halfus. This would be better fixed by getting a melée on him, but in 10 man, that might not be possible.
2. You are losing threat AND you have done everything possible to fix your spec and rotation. This should not really be a consideration until maybe T13-ish.