PDA

View Full Version : The Weekly Marmot - How Addons Alter Game Design



Lore
02-01-2011, 08:54 AM
bLX_J70eikA

Follow me on Twitter (http://www.twitter.com/devolore) or Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/devolore)!

Daduke77
02-01-2011, 09:21 AM
You're right on once again, Lore. Without addons like DBM, Blizz would have to "dumb down" raid encounters. The problem I have is when players rely too much on them to play there game for them. They are meant to be a tool, not a crutch.

I am a pretty good player, and use DBM and other addons to help me survive raid encounters I would epicly fail on otherwise. But I have seen players focus so much what the addons are telling them, they lose sight of what they're supposed to be doing at the time(GET OUT OF THE FIRE!!!).

It's about finding a balance. The other mistake I see people making is having SO MANY addons that their screens get so cluttered they can't possibly take it all in.

Devotii
02-01-2011, 09:47 AM
Thanks Lore, but where was the "its really really simple"? You only did, "its super super simple" during the marmot and nothing at the end!

Kazeyonoma
02-01-2011, 10:51 AM
yeah, i mean, lately i've been running without dbm and i had a few guildies before who were exceptional players and later i found out they didn't even use addons, and i was shocked, but the average player, doesn't have that kind of stellar ADD-like capability to see anything and everything going on all at once so I don't see DBM as a bad thing, when people rely on it to DO the fights for them (like AVRE was approaching) than yeah it can be a problem, but having timers on raid wiping abilities is almost mandatory.

Jaen
02-01-2011, 11:30 AM
Once upon a time, I played a game called EverQuest. There were no addons and the boss fights were quite epic.
Thus, I wouldn't say encounter design without addons can't be done.

However, as a retired WoW player, I did use addons for bosses, threat, etc. and I liked the presentation of information that simplified playing. Not simple as in doing things for me, but simple as in not having to increase the size of the combat log window to be able to see the npc shouts or environmental messages. Fire and void zones on the floor were plenty obvious.

I agree that we will use what makes playing easiest. I also used decursive as a Mage in Vanilla. But I also did Lucifron and Chromagus without the addons as well. For me, it just helped prevent repetitive stress injuries by decreasing the number of keystrokes. I didn't need the addon to think for me, but having it do that also resulted in faster scrubbing so that was a a bonus.

As a new Rift player, I will not be vocal in either direction regarding addons. If they choose to allow them, I will use what might help me. If they disallow addons, I will l2p without. I have no preference.
I just hope that Trion Worlds is able to design fun and challenging encounters regardless of which path they choose.

Uranos7
02-01-2011, 01:20 PM
Gearscore is now Playerscore and rates a persons PVE experience as well.
Also tells you whether or not a person has enchanted their armor so it is still very useful but i am glad people are not as reliant on it as b4.

I think when people started asking for a 5k GS to do Naxx it just got ridiculous! lol

Kuroryuu
02-01-2011, 01:58 PM
LOL that was great how you worked that frost mage jab in with out breaking stride.

I thought GearScore was gone because no one on my server has mentioned it since cata came out. Is that because they added average ilvl to the character sheet?

The music used in the intermission, is that background music from a zone in wow? sounds familiar just can't remember where its from.

Nixxo
02-01-2011, 04:46 PM
This may be a little far fetched... but did all the conversation and arguments on the Rift forums have anything to do with your idea to make this episode? o.o;

clvsutil
02-01-2011, 09:47 PM
This may be a little far fetched... but did all the conversation and arguments on the Rift forums have anything to do with your idea to make this episode? o.o;

Can you give us an idea about what were they discussing? Is this forum you are talking about? http://forums.riftgame.com/
thx in advance

Nixxo
02-02-2011, 03:07 AM
Can you give us an idea about what were they discussing? Is this forum you are talking about? http://forums.riftgame.com/
thx in advance

Rift forums has been covered in topics about add-ons for days now. Discussing if they should be allowed in Rift, not allowed, how they ruined WoW, how they make bad players, help good players, and every other reason you can think of.

Petninja
02-02-2011, 09:26 AM
I has question for PST: What's taters, hobbit?

Chouzz
02-02-2011, 10:34 AM
This is the only "gameshow" that i really follow :D love your work and your haircut <3

Jaen
02-02-2011, 06:49 PM
I have this weird wish that one day I will be watching TWM or PST and an arm (his wifes most likely) reaches in holding electric hair shears and BZZZZZZZZZZZZ a big ass swath of the furry helmet right off his head.
Talk about a perma .gif moment.
Post that in the "Compilation of all that is awesome" and lock that sucker! /thread

Vickers
02-02-2011, 07:00 PM
My GS rant, among other shtuff
I agree with the gearscore VS item level comparison. GS tended to be viewed as a player's ability score, which was/is never true, it just means you can do what it takes to get that gear. It doesn't say "I pugged/failed in 15 ICC groups that carried me in epicweave handbaskets, to finally ninja that epic I didn't deserve/need". Even the worst player in a decent guild could progress to a 5.8+k score, which would allow them to do pugrific in random ICC groups.

With the advent of the Ilvl lock outs, and Ilvl being accepted as the new standard (GS just couldn't update fast enough) the pugrificness is in full effect again! Now any goof can get into heroics without one lick of dungeon experience. I personally built two heroic min Ilvl sets, by just questing and paying off a couple of crafters. I feel like the guy from the insurance commercials, is in every pugged random dungeon I'm in. "I'm a teenage hunter, and I just got a text that Malinar likes Executetioner, but I like Executeioner, now I don't know how to CC and that adept is kicking everyone's ass." Yea its an exaggeration, but you get the point. My friends G/F, no matter how cool she is, has an Ilvl of 330+ but will insist on bringing her pet monkey to raids becuase he appears to be flinging poo...

Ilvl330 does not mean you are ready and competent to do heroics. With all that in mind, I did find a couple more uses for GS over Ilvl. If somone is bustin out half tank gear as a dps, or half feral gear as a healer, I can instantly see WTF, in a matter of, click target, slash GS. It's an addon that takes info that you would have to waste time browsing over to finger out, and puts it in a small checklist of fail or not to fail.
Fanboy of GS you say? Hell to the no! GS ruined my LK experience, well, a short vacation to IRAQ two months after the release did that, but the thing about starting behind the curb due to an uncle sam related hiatus, is that by the time I was GSed to run ICC to the end, here comes Cataclysm. F your GS, and start working on your min Ilvl, btw who is this LK you keep whining about never fighting?

After my blood stopped boiling, I noticed GS was still working when /inspect took a breather. I noticed all the formentioned tools that it had, and it even helped me to pick and choose gear more discriminately, (pre cata release) because GS looks at your gear from a theorycrafted pov. I improved my gear overall, not by looking for an addon knowledge handout, but by studding my weakest gear, and finding out why the rating was low, regardless of stats.
Changing gameplay,

the biggest addon, well not really and addon, but the biggest external influence, to change game-play is YouTube.... Awesome players that beta test the content, figure out the fights, then the "we are awesome" videos comes out. After launch, everyone is studied up, and the hardcore groups figure out the bosses and post their "we are just as awesome, because its post launch" videos, and some are nice enough to do walkthroughs. Now your expected to know a fight you have never been to, its like saying, "hey, watch these videos, the total gym workout and the way of the dragon, until you have both memorized, because your fighting Carlos Ray Norris Jr. on tuesday and thursday night, know the fight, or you can't go". Really?

My view on addons,
LOVE THEM.... no really.... Its one of the reasons I play this game. Bliz makes a nice neat UI, but I like the option of finding my flavor. Its much like a jailbroken Ipod, it starts off good, but they're not the only ones with a good idea. I use my own art to quel movement behind my buttons to make CD easier to watch. Move my map to a more usefull location, watch my DPS, watch my stats, watch other people's stats, fight bosses, avoid bosses, run from bosses, whatever i need/want/amuse myself with. Hell, if I want it to sound like Nov 1st 1990 all over again, I can summon yoshi and fly through the super azeroth world of mario music. The downside, addons will never make anyone a good player.
0-.-0 [troll food] I'm sure.....

Mhoram
02-02-2011, 08:16 PM
As a new Rift player, I will not be vocal in either direction regarding addons. If they choose to allow them, I will use what might help me. If they disallow addons, I will l2p without. I have no preference.
I just hope that Trion Worlds is able to design fun and challenging encounters regardless of which path they choose.

The nice thing about Rift, though, is that every piece of the default UI is editable - you can move things wherever you want, scale them, disable them... If WoW would allow you to have the same amount of control over their default UI, I don't think there'd be as big a debate over addons as there is.

Fetzie
02-02-2011, 08:34 PM
Mhoram, if anything you get more control over your UI in WoW, as you can even replace it completely if you so wish.

Mhoram
02-02-2011, 09:29 PM
Mhoram, if anything you get more control over your UI in WoW, as you can even replace it completely if you so wish.

Yes, but if I had control over the parts of the default UI, I wouldn't need to replace it. What's one of the reasons people use other unitframe mods? So they can move them where they want them. Why do people use mods like Bartender or Dominoes? So they can move and scale the actionbars as they want them.

In Rift, I don't have to screw around with .lua files, or mod configs, or whatever - I just move the UI around to wherever I want them. And I'm thinking when patch days come around, I won't have to wait for mod authors to update.

Yes, you CAN replace everything in WoW. But how much of what you replace is because you're wanting to do something WoW won't let you do>? Chances are, most of it.

Edit: and I'm probably one of the biggest mod and UI compilation users around - I've been using mods and addons since way back in the Discord days. So I'm not some mod purist or anything. But 9 times out of 10, I used a mod, or a UI compilation, or whatever, because I couldn't make the default UI do what I wanted it to do. Could I have run without any mods? Sure. But I would have been limited by the default UI and how it's set up.

How many videos do we see that say "put your unitframes down in the middle of the screen, so that you don't have to look all over to see them"? All of them. WoW's default UI won't let you do that, but Rift's will. Hell, LotRO's will, and that's how many years old? And that's just one example. Why do I need to see the micro menu buttons in the default UI? Once I've played the game a couple days, and I've learned the keybinds for them, why do I still need to see them? Wouldn't that space be better utilized by another actionbar? WoW doesn't think so, as it won't let you change it. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Predakhan
02-04-2011, 09:28 AM
Can you give us an idea about what were they discussing? Is this forum you are talking about? http://forums.riftgame.com/
thx in advance

Thanks for the link. I have been playing the beta and really enjoying the game so far. There seems to be a really crazy group of addon haters on those forums that think meters are the devil. lol That it plays the game for you etc. People seem really out of touch with what most addons even do.

Nahela
02-15-2011, 05:41 AM
Just a comment on the built-in boss mods segment:

The first instance of the 'built-in boss mod' feature was actually in BC in a few of the 5-man dungeons. The first one that comes to mind is the Beholder boss in Auchenai Crypts.

Addons were by far one of the best ideas that Blizzard had for WoW. Mostly supported by the fact that they were quick on keeping up with addon progression and keeping game-breaking addons from 'living' for any extended period of time.

As for Rift, their marketing department caused a whole lot of stupidity to pop up in the community when they made the 'You're not in Azeroth anymore' ad campaign. Rift was doing perfectly fine on its own and since that ad popped up it feels like all I ever see in game or on the boards are comparisons/arguments to do with WoW.