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Nentualin
01-30-2011, 12:01 PM
Hi, I have a quick question.

At the moment my lvl 85 tanks are my warrior and my death knight.

Context:
I am running with guildies who pull about 12k-15k dps per pack in hcs, even more. They start nuking exactly after i charge.

Problem:
My initial aggro is horrendous to say the least. That applies to the initial pull into the first 5 secs or so where i have a chance of like 50% to lose at least one mob to the dps, and also if i find myself with no rage and an extra pack pulled so i can't charge i have quite the chance to not get any mobs on me at all.

Now, i've been tanking in wotlk, i've been tanking after the threat nerf patch and i haven't had any problems like these.

My armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/darksorrow/nentualin/simple
My initial rotation: charge + heroic throw -> shield slam -> thunderclap -> shockwave -> revenge if it's up + cleave. Usually things go wrong after this and i have quite some chances to lose mobs.

Now, my dk does not have this kind of problems his initial threat seems way better. Anything i can improve ?

Destruyen
01-30-2011, 12:22 PM
heroic throw and then charge will free up a global once you are in melee range. thunderclap then shockwave and then start tab targetting rotating revenge (cause it cleaves) > shield slam > dev while keeping tc and shockwave on cd. if you have spare rage cleave. use and addon like tidyplates: threat plates and if you see a mob bar turn red just taunt it and throw a quick shield slam on it.

nserafini
01-30-2011, 12:55 PM
I've only played since Wrath ( toc ), but when was warrior initial aggro ever NOT an issue ?

1 - I don't see you mentioning target marks. If skull dies first, than focus ss and cb on him, spreading around rends with tclap and shockwaves. Working your way thru the marks. Even if the dps are attacking the skull, they will AoE others. That's fine, swave and clap, cleave and tab targeting will cover that. If dps draws off the non-current target, he can't follow directions.

2 - Can the dps hold off 3 seconds for you to build aggro on skull, and spread threat around to X and so on? I remind my dps that you may be leet on recount, but you're also dead in grid. Which is better ?

3 - vigilance is your friend. Set it on the dps drawing aggro the most.


Destruyen's suggestion is best bang for buck, but I still feel the first the above are standard operating procedures and should be followed on a pull no matter the mobs.

Nentualin
01-30-2011, 01:02 PM
Thanks for the tips.

To answer some things there i already have threat plates installed, couldn't live without them :D

I usually heroic throw while charging, heroic throwing an off mob (not skull). Also, is it better to use shield slam on my primary target with shield block up ? i mean shield block + shield slam doesn't seem like much of a damage boost at the start, when not having 3 sunders up. I'll try not shield slamming right after reaching the mobs and focus my main target no sooner than thunderclap + shockwave - i think that might help a bit , though it might lead to losing my primary target if not quick enough.

Now, don't get me wrong things are not hectic i can manage usually with a taunt and a conc blow on stray mobs, but it proves to be quite a hassle, and there is a 10% chance things will go very wrong.

Are these problems normal ? Once vengeance kicks in it's auto pilot.

Nentualin
01-30-2011, 01:09 PM
And to answer nserafini:

1. I usually mark skull and dps focus on that at first. I just find myself that after shield slam on primary target TC and shockwave, if in the next 5 secs i focus too much on my primary target, 1-2 mobs are already going for the dps.

2. Well dps goes full nuke exactly after i reach the mobs, unless it's a los pull but i can't really blame them since wrath kind of led to this.

3. Yes, I vigilance and the taunt is very nice, but again i am accustomed to not having to use taunt, since tanking in tbc, wotlk kind of gave me the impression that if i taunt my tanking is really wrong somewhere

klausi
01-30-2011, 01:56 PM
Simple rule: they kill the skull as quickly as possible and bomb like hell afterwards.

This way you can easily put enough aggro on all targets while keep the aggro of the focus one. If they don't to follow that simple rule let them tank while you dps. Making instance more quickly is one part, but four people having fun while the fith one feels uncomfortable with the way of playing isn't something you should stick with.

Other suggestions could be to reforge for exp/hit and put on some dps pieces but that's only interesting for fully epic decked tanks 25+ ilvl above you.

kopcap
01-30-2011, 05:57 PM
Ask your dps to use /assist

Personally, my taunt is usually on CD in heroics :)

Timberton
01-31-2011, 02:54 AM
I am running with guildies
Pre-pull ritual: mark any cc, and put up a skull.
Now, if dps frequently are starting their rotation while I'm still charging, or frequently pull the mobs without my consent, then I first let them off with a warning. When next offense happens... "You did it again, now die please"
Also if they are running in front of the tank, and they end up face pulling mobs, they die (mages are the usual face-pullers)
No exceptions. Doesn't matter if it's a wipe as long as the person who did it dies (and you tell them why they will die). Horribly. And preferably screaming

They will learn, sooner or later, that you are not to be messed with. After this, you will get a few secs to properly build aggro on the mobs and properly plan the pulls.

Katzazi
01-31-2011, 04:10 AM
Some comments:

- SB + SS is a nice boost at the start. As you said, you have no problems after some seconds. If you wait until you have 3 stacks of sunder up, you'll probably not need the boost anymore. There is another reason too: The dmg income is probably worst at the start, while the healer does not have a heal in the queue already. So using SB early may help your survivability, too. Well you should probably wait until the shockwave effect drops, but that's ok, since nobody will be attacked, anyway.

- Don't focus on debuffing. Neither on sunder nor on Demo, as long as you have problems with your threat. Sure, use Demo on hard pulls, where your survivabilty is in questions (due to non-magical dmg). But if you have problems to get the hold on the mobs, it's not your first priority. Sunder only helps your melee. You yourself do more threat and dmg if you use other abilities in the right order than 3 def right at the start. If you don't have any melee, it's not worth to bother about it on trash. If the pull goes smoth the overall dps of your group will be higher than if you put 3 sunders on one mob eventually and everybody has to worry about mobs turing around on them.

- Telling people to /assist you is a bad idea with tab-targeting tanks. We don't always have the mob in target that should be burned down first...

- Use CCs not only to control mobs but also to control your group. If a mage is buzy with sheeping something she cannot land a pyroblast before you reach the mob.

- Don't feel responsible for everything happening there. If a mob has low health and turns around to a ranged, just let it go. Your caster knows how to finish it off. If a rogue attacks a mob standing away from you, the rogue probably knows how to finish it off without even getting hurt. If they die anyway - it's their problem.

nserafini
01-31-2011, 07:40 AM
Some comments:

- Don't feel responsible for everything happening there. If a mob has low health and turns around to a ranged, just let it go. Your caster knows how to finish it off. If a rogue attacks a mob standing away from you, the rogue probably knows how to finish it off without even getting hurt. If they die anyway - it's their problem.

This is actually a good point to remember. If the mob is at say 15% and dropping, it's OK if it peels off. When I tank packs, say the hunter is 20/30 yds away. As it peels off, I'm ok with it running to him as it dies. I can taunt or throw or charge or pierce howl or any number of things.

Oh, and as for not using taunt ( or feeling you are a fail tank becuase you do ) .. I disagree 100%.

I can drive my car with my mouth, but i'll use both hands any day of the week. Point being, it's a tool, not a crutch. I'm fine taunting back a mob if the mage goes ba**s deep.

Dragaan
01-31-2011, 09:59 PM
When you're doing heroics, reforge your hit and expertise back up to decent levels. Also, if you are already half-decently geared and have a good healer, wear a dps trinket or two. Charge -> rend -> TC -> cleave/shockwave/revenge/cleave/etc while tabbing around. Get rend ticking asap and cleave every CD. With proper ability usage and targetting, you should be able to hit ~20k in entry-lv raid gear on trash packs. After you get a bit more experienced as a prot warrior, you'll notice how great our dmg/threat really can be. That is, until they nerf our balls off next patch.