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shiz98
01-28-2011, 08:33 PM
Yet Another Catalysm Arms Warrior Guide
Last Updated: December 12, 2011 (4.3) Correctness and freshness not guaranteed past this date :(

My name is shiz98, and this is a guide. It covers:


Talents
Glyphs
Rotation
Stats/Gearing
Questions

There are also appendices for relatively useless things:


Stance Dancing for Fun and Profit

and that's it.

Note: To be brief, Arms theorycrafting tends to be underdeveloped. As such, you should make a point of checking around every couple months to see if the community has figured out any improvements to the spec. Note that this guide may not be accurately updated in the future to reflect these refinements, as I'm just not able to predict what kind of time I'll be able to commit to it.

The Spec

The image below is of the Warrior talent trees (god help you if you didn't recognize them). In fact, it's actually an image of my DPS spec. You'll notice that, unusually, there are some blue boxes in there too (god help you if you didn't see them). Here's the deal: in this modern era, we really don't have any bad talents in the tree, which gives us a lot of choice. I'll be talking about those choices below, but the blue talents are not choices, and you should always max them out in any spec you make.

http://i.imgur.com/MmVKs.png

Optional Talents
Field Dressing (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=84580) – Pretty good. Not overwhelmingly good, but your healers will like it.
Blitz (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=80977) – A nice rage boost to your charge, and the stun could be good or bad depending on how you like to PvP/PvE
Tactical Mastery (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=12676) – If you stance dance, or PvP at all, this ability is incredible. Also very useful for letting you use Intervene (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=3411).
Second Wind (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=29838) – Almost useless in PvE
Drums of War (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=12963) – You may want to consider picking this up if you're a main interrupter a lot. You'll have 10 rage lying around about 90% of the time even while maintaining your regular rotation, but this gives some peace of mind for that last 10%.
Sweeping Strikes (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=12328) – Combined with the glyph, this ability is fantastic for AoEing. Very much worth the one point, in my opinion.
Improved Hamstring (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=12668) – For PvE? No thanks.
Throwdown (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=85388) – Good as an emergency interrupt on weaker mobs. Also handy in 5-mans. If you're looking for maximum raid utility, skip it.
Blood Craze (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=16492) – Ehhh, no.
Executioner (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=20503) – Overall a small DPS increase, but noticable during Execute range. Worth taking if you find yourself with extra talent points. (See Page 4 for discussion)
Booming Voice (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=12835) – Good if you're struggling with rage, but you'll do better if you solve that by gearing.
Rude Interruption (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=61221) – On fights with interrupts, a 5% damage increase. Fantastic.
Piercing Howl (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=12323) – There aren't too many applications for this in 4.3 raiding, but you may want it for the occasional 5 man or solo play.
Blood and Thunder (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=84615) – Glorious for AoE.

The Glyphs

Prime
Who loves the illusion of choice? I know I do:

Glyph of Mortal Strike (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43421)
Glyph of Overpower (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43422)
Glyph of Slam (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43423)

Major
You do have a choice here, and what you choose will actually impact your playstyle a bit.

Glyph of Cleaving (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43414) – Good for AoEing
Glyph of Colossus Smash (http://www.wowhead.com/item=63481) – Do you look like a (Sunder) bitch? If so, this is the glyph for you! New in 4.3: applies sunder instead of just refreshing it, which is awesome.
Glyph of Heroic Throw (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43418) – Not really useful now that Colossus Smash applies sunder
Glyph of Long Charge (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43397) – Somewhat useful if you're running around a lot
Glyph of Piercing Howl (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43417) – Kinda useful if you have Piercing Howl
Glyph of Rapid Charge (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43413) – I think we can do better...
Glyph of Sweeping Strikes (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43428) – Like this glyph. I love it, I really do.

Minor
Nobody really cares what you put here, and neither do I. Here are some popular choices:

Glyph of Battle (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43395)
Glyph of Berserker Rage (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43396) – Can be useful for helping with rage generation if used properly.
Glyph of Furious Sundering (http://www.wowhead.com/item=45793)
Glyph of Intimidating Shout (http://www.wowhead.com/item=45794) – aka "AoE CC for Pansies"

The Rotation

I'm going to do something a little different here, and forego the usual priority queue format. Instead, we're going to talk about threads. You're going to want to weave these threads together when you do your DPS — don't just blindly follow the priorites. Instead you should be actively thinking about your rotation and planning ahead. It's important for each one of these threads to happen perfectly, and it's your job to make sure that happens.

The first thread in your rotation is Rend. This is very simple: maintain Rend. Since 4.1 this is significantly easier, since Mortal Strike does all the hard work for you. If all hell breaks loose and it looks like Rend is going to fall before you can MS again, let it. It's less of a DPS loss to reapply than to refresh.

The second thread is Mortal Strike; you want to hit this as soon as it comes off CD, but not at the expense of Rend.

Third, we have Overpower. Unlike Rend and Mortal Strike, you don't need to worry about firing OP off as soon as possible; you've actually got a 6s window in which to use it. This lets you maximize both your MS damage and your OP damage, because any time using OP would conflict with MS (or Rend for that matter), you can afford to hold back a couple seconds before using the TfB proc.

The filler in between the ability usage here is Slam. Any time you're not using one of the above mentioned abilities, you should be slamming away.

The final piece of the puzzle here is Colossus Smash. The damage portion of this ability sucks — it's worse than Slam, and more expensive. Its real value is the 6s of zero armor it provides you. As such, you're going to want to use it when you can make maximum usage of it: right before Mortal Strike. Ideally your CS usage timing should be such that you can do this:

0s CS
1.5s MS
3s OP
4s Slam
5.5s OP/Slam

You should sit on any Sudden Death proc until you're able to set up that kind of ability schedule. Most importantly (so even if you screw up and hit CS when you're not supposed to), don't overlap CS. Yeah, you might "waste" a Sudden Death proc. That's life.

Bladestorm
You shouldn't use this on one mob. Two or more, go for it. On any fight with an AoE phase, save it for that.

Cooldowns
You've got Deadly Calm, which you should combine with your trinkets and ideally a CS. I'd recommend popping your trinkets, CSing, bringing your rage down to 0 (via copious Heroic Strike usage), and then hitting Deadly Calm and going hog wild. Once DC wears off, pop Recklessness to make the most use of that 100 rage you've built up.

When DC is active you should be spamming Slam and Heroic Strike like a champion — just make sure you take note of when DC wears off so you don't kill off your Rage entirely.

When should I use Shattering Throw (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=64382)?
During Heroism, you selfish jerk. On long enough fights you may be able to get two of these off, so play it by ear. If you're not using it during heroism you should at the very least make sure you pop a CD to get the best usage out of it. You should also be telling your raid when it's up, to give other physical dps a chance to pop their CD's.

Execute Range

Mortal Strike goes way down on your priority list. In fact, you should really only use it to maintain Rend/Lambs to the Slaughter. You still want to keep using Overpower, but drop Slam from your rotation entirely. Instead, you're going to be spending all your hard-earned rage on 30 Rage Executes. Emphasis on the 30 Rage. If you have less than 30 rage? Don't Execute. The ability does the most damage per rage at 30.

The Stats

The basic rundown:

Hit to cap (8% on character sheet)
Strength
Crit
Mastery
Expertise (cap is 26 Exp on character sheet)
Haste

But don't just follow that blindly! Instead, you should be aware of the...

Details
First off, you're probably noticing that hit has a strangely high priority, since we no longer have to worry about missing interrupts. See, we use expertise as a rage generating stat (in place of the eternally awful haste). As it turns out, if you cap your hit you're generating pretty much all the rage you need (combine that with a windfury buff and you're almost certainly good in a raid situation) — this is why Hit is on the top. Expertise used to be up there too, but it turns out that it doesn't affect your rage generation, which makes it a more mediocre stat when you factor in Overpower being usable on dodges. You don't want to ignore it completely, but there's no real need to cap it.

Next up we have Strength, with is basically your go-to stat for everything. It's hard to actively shoot for Strength since it just kind of shows up on gear, but you should fill all red sockets with it, and get Strength trinkets if possible.

From there we really only have three stats to choose from: Mastery, Crit, and Haste. Haste is really bad, and you should strive to have none of it. Mastery and Crit and actually pretty even in terms of DPS gain. At lower levels of gear, Crit is a little bit better than Mastery, but I'd guess it's the other way around after this raiding tier. All in all, you should strive to have a good balance of both Crit and Mastery; don't just pick up one and ignore the other.

So, what should I look for in gear?
A very good question.

Are you not hit capped? Look for gear with hit and crit/mastery/expertise
Are you not expertise capped? Look for gear with crit/mastery/expertise
Are you hit and expertise capped? Look for gear with crit and mastery

What about gems?
Pretty much the same as the above:

If it's red, put an STR gem in it.
If it's yellow, use STR unless you want the socket bonus, or you're trying to get a meta bonus.
If it's blue, use Hit if you're not hitcapped, otherwise an STR or Stam/STR gem (depending on whether you need a socket bonus)

And reforging?
Generally speaking, reforge intelligently using the stat priorities above. It's not worth reforging Crit or Mastery to the other, but you should always reforge Haste into something better (though ideally none of your gear should have haste).

If you're low on expertise, you should get there via reforging rather than gemming, as it allows you to put those oh-so-good STR gems in your red sockets.

Questions

I read something somewhere that contradicts something in this guide. Who's right?
If it's from anywhere other than Elitist Jerks, it's probably wrong (seriously, Arms is really misunderstood in most places). I'd trust EJ over this guide, but don't go crazy.

Ok but why?

In all honesty, because people tend to approach writing these guides without a whole lot of rigor behind the gearing/rotation suggestions they make. I've made a concerted effort to back up anything I suggest here with some actual theorycrafting, so I'm pretty confident in what I suggest. Yes, there will be something in this guide that will be proven wrong down the line; that's a guarantee. But as a whole, I believe this guide to be the most accurate guide to Arms at the time of writing. Call me arrogant :)

Where else should I go to stay up-to-date on Arms, or if I have questions?
Right here on the Tankspot DPS forum is a good place to go. There are a lot of warriors here who have much more experience than I, and who know their class inside and out.

The only other place that I'd recommend is Elitist Jerks, and even then I'd only recommend it to those who are really, really serious about their class, and who aren't put off by maths and heavy analysis. It's not a good place to ask questions, but there are some very smart people there posting in the warrior threads, and you're guaranteed to find some good information over the course of the expansion if you can stomach the superthread approach they take.

Appendix A – Stance Dancing for Fun and Profit

Fact: Berserker Stance (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=2458) makes you do 5% more damage than Battle Stance (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=2457). As Arms, you can leverage that fact you have greatly improved stance dancing thanks to Tactical Mastery (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=12676) to spend some time in Berserker Stance, which will net you a DPS increase.

First, the caveat: this is a fairly small DPS increase (in practice, something like 3-4%), so if the added complexity is going to make you mess up your rotation or do a poor job of watching fight mechanics, it's not worth it.

If you're game, all you really need to do is start stance dancing around your OP usage. In fact, what you really want to be doing is sitting in Berserker Stance by default, and dancing to Battle Stance only to use OP. This will increase your white damage and Strikes of Opportunity (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=76838) damage to as much as possible.

Here's a sample timeline:


0.0s Rend (TfB Proc)
Stance Dance to Berserker
1.5s CS
3.0s MS
Stance Dance to Battle
4.5s OP
Stance Dance to Berserker
6.0s Slam (TfB Proc)
7.5s MS
Stance Dance to Battle
9.0s OP
Stance Dance to Berserker
10.5s Slam
12.0s MS (TfB Proc)


Practice, practice, practice. Training dummies are your friend. If you can get really good with timing your TfB procs, you should get pretty close to the ideal 5% DPS bonus.

Aside: This got a whole lot easier in 4.1.

Update History

Jan 29, 2011: Fixed up gemming, and added a bit of reforging info (thanks to klausi for corrections!)
Feb 9, 2011: Changed the wording for some glyphs/talents (based on others' posts in this thread)
Jun 22, 2011: Updated for 4.2 — Mostly rotation/gearing
Dec 12, 2011: Updated for 4.3 — A few tweaks/typo fixes, and updated Glyph of Colossus Smash info

This is almost certainly the last update for the expansion.

The End

shiz98
01-28-2011, 08:34 PM
Any and all feedback is appreciated!

Keep in mind that this guide is written assuming 4.0.6 is live, so it may not be entirely correct for the next week or two until the patch is released.

Mazar
01-28-2011, 11:26 PM
Well, you could have said the 4.0.6. bit earlier. You confused me. :P

Care to clarify the Executioner part? Everyone says something different, but being that you are talking about the 4.0.6., maybe you know something interesting from the PTRs.

shiz98
01-28-2011, 11:34 PM
Once you hit Execute Range as Arms, you actually don't want to use Execute at all. Its damage is subpar right now, and when those new Arms changes go live (specifically Lambs to the Slaughter), you're going to be way better off ignoring it. This all makes Executioner a pretty weak talent. Actually, I suppose "useless" wouldn't be too strong a word.

Regarding the 4.0.6 thing... yeahhh, sorry about that. I figure the patch goes live Tuesday, and all this stuff should still be mostly relevant right now, so I didn't worry too much about being careful with the timing.

Kazeyonoma
01-29-2011, 12:02 AM
stickied!

Bang
01-29-2011, 03:59 AM
what is this blue gemming strat ? - with spell pen ??? - i´ve never seen this before.

klausi
01-29-2011, 04:07 AM
Expertise to cap (14 Exp on character sheet)
^ 14? What about 26? The talent in arms reducing dodge chance is long gone.

combine that with a windfury buff and you're almost certainly good in a raid situation
^ windfury is only 10% haste, that's it. Doesn't act like mastery in ages.

If it's red and you're not expertise capped, put an Exp. gem in it
^ why not reforge for it and hitcap while using strength (major stat) everywhere like all other dps classes do?

If it's yellow and you're not hitcapped, put a Hit gem in it
^ hit changed to blue with cata, mastery and crit remain yellow

If it's blue, Spell Penetration
^ c&p? :D

Zaktraw
01-29-2011, 06:34 AM
This guide is wrong on so many levels I don't know where to start.

shiz98
01-29-2011, 08:12 AM
14? What about 26? The talent in arms reducing dodge chance is long gone.
Durr, math fail.


windfury is only 10% haste, that's it. Doesn't act like mastery in ages.
Even 10% haste is a pretty significant (10% actually :P) buff to your rage generation, and should be more than enough to bump you over the rage minimum.


hit changed to blue with cata, mastery and crit remain yellow
Right you are! Sometimes, I write on autopilot. Heh, I've even gemmed for hit this expansion...

what is this blue gemming strat ? - with spell pen ??? - i´ve never seen this before.
Just a little joke, is all :). I tried to pick something that would be blatantly wrong so as not to confuse people. You should fill blue slots with STR if you don't need the socket bonus, or Stam/STR if you do.


why not reforge for it and hitcap while using strength (major stat) everywhere like all other dps classes do?
This... this is a good idea.


This guide is wrong on so many levels I don't know where to start.
Seriously, please post any corrections or issues you have with the guide (or PM me if you prefer) so that I can improve it.

klausi
01-30-2011, 11:32 AM
If it's blue, use Hit if you're not hitcapped, otherwise an STR or Stam/STR gem (depending on whether you need a socket bonus)
^ str/hit is purple, counts for both red and blue :) That's the reason why they changed it so you don't have to use x/stamina in your blue sockets while playing dps any longer.

For yellow you can and should use either str/crit or str/mastery if the socket bonus is no +haste. Might change with 4.0.6 and hasted slam.

Glyph of Berserker Rage (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43396) is actually quite nice because it's 5 rage off gcd every 30s and can help you when messed up your ragepool. There are no fearing bosses around so why saving or worring about it?

And you didn't say a word about incite. With your advice to not us execute during sub 20% phase, getting more than cruelty from fury gives you either blood craze or easier rage management via battle trance. But having 15% more HS crits + guaranteed hs crit follow up looks way more appealing than a situational aoe slow that other classes can provide with their regular speccs, too. But i really don't get why you wouldn't want to execute at all (reread your sudden death description!) making the executioner talent very appealing to me.

shiz98
01-30-2011, 12:53 PM
Haha, thanks klausi. I haven't been keeping up with the gem changes as well as I should have been, as you've noticed :P.


Glyph of Berserker Rage is actually quite nice because it's 5 rage off gcd every 30s and can help you when messed up your ragepool. There are no fearing bosses around so why saving or worring about it?
I stopped using it after 4.0, as for 5-mans and PvP I was just hitting it every 30s on autopilot and it screwed me over. In my experience it's not really that useful from a rage perspective, and I've found the habit just screwed me over all too often. At the end of the day though, I'm not really recommending anyone not take it; just my own experience with the glyph. Maybe I should clean up that wording...


But having 15% more HS crits + guaranteed hs crit follow up looks way more appealing than a situational aoe slow that other classes can provide with their regular speccs, too.
The idea is to really cut back heavily on the HS usage, as it has a weak damage/rage ratio, especially in patch 4.0.6 (relative to the Lambs changes). Without any haste, you really won't have much HS usage at all, and haste is bad enough that gearing it for extra HS isn't worth it. This makes incite fairly weak.


But i really don't get why you wouldn't want to execute at all (reread your sudden death description!) making the executioner talent very appealing to me.
The damage execute does is just super lame. You've got much more powerful modifiers on Slam, Overpower, Rend, and even Mortal Strike, even moreso when that 30% Lambs to the Slaughter buff goes live (as the difference now gets increased by 30%). Given that you should have enough rage to maintain your normal rotation and fill every GCD, Execute doesn't even look that attractive despite its situationally superior rage:damage ratio.

Of course, Executioner may still be worthwhile because you can just toss out an execute every once in a while to maintain the stacks. Problem is, that 25% haste bonus is going to have a tiny direct effect on your DPS, and the bonus rage is just going to go into HS. This nets out to a heroic strike roughly every 12 seconds, so maybe 700 dps, tops? That's not fantastic when you consider that you're losing DPS by using Execute in your rotation. So maybe a couple hundred DPS if used perfectly, which isn't much to write home about.

That said, I actually plan on taking a closer look at execute range when I get the chance... feels like the interaction between Execute and Heroic Strike may be worth modifying the rotation/spec a bit for.

The caveat for speccing around Execute is that you might be dropping DPS for 80% if the fight in favor of doing more the last 20%. This may be beneficial on some fights, harmful on the others, and may just plain be a DPS loss overall.

marklar
01-31-2011, 12:40 AM
Once you hit Execute Range as Arms, you actually don't want to use Execute at all. Its damage is subpar right now, and when those new Arms changes go live (specifically Lambs to the Slaughter), you're going to be way better off ignoring it. This all makes Executioner a pretty weak talent. Actually, I suppose "useless" wouldn't be too strong a word.

say what? i would really like to see some math to back this up. execute seems like a great use of a GCD. besides that, 25% attack speed bonus? yes please (how can you say it's not that great?).

glyph of HT not good? it's great on fights with no adds - saves you 1 GCD to start the fight.

rude interruption - most of the time, 1 point = 2 points

drums has nothing to do with being a main interrupter - if the fight has interrupts, the points are a dps increase. 10 rage is 10 rage.

zerker rage is the ONLY mandatory minor glyph - use it anytime you get rage starved, not on cooldown, like you were trying to do.

Destruyen
01-31-2011, 12:56 AM
zerker rage is the ONLY mandatory minor glyph - use it anytime you get rage starved, not on cooldown, like you were trying to do.

5 rage is not going to help you not be rage starved. learning the right times to slam and/or hs will help you alot more than 5 rage on zerker rage use....

execute is a bad use of a global for arms. it hits like crap and uses 30 rage, doesn't apply lambs, and spamming it will leave you without the rage to even keep cs, rend, ms, and op going. you can use it if you have 2/2 executioner to stack the buff and replace a slam when you need to keep the buff stacked, but to say execute is a great use of a global is wrong.

the only time ht glyph is good is if you are the only one that can apply the debuff, which if that's true you will be the only one benefiting from it. if you don't have a prot warrior in your raid, no druids of any kind, no rogues, or any hunters, then you can just use sunder and not reset your swing timer by using ht.

there are no other places to pull points from to pick up 2/2 drums so idk where you are getting points from for that.

shiz98
01-31-2011, 12:04 PM
Execute numbers, assuming a 552 DPS weapon at 3.6s speed, 10k AP and 20% crit.

Modifiers assuming additive stacking, since I don't know offhand. It's more conservative, so it should favor Execute
Execute 130%
MS 155%
OP 140%
Slam 165%

Crit Bonuses
MS 10%
Slam 5%
OP 60%
Incite is a 20% bonus to crit damage to MS, Slam, and OP

Misc
Weapon damage = 4344
Deep Wounds damage = 2844

Base Damage[b] formulas slightly modified for simplicity's sake
Execute10 = 10 + AP * 0.437 = 4380
Execute30 = 10 + AP * 1.32 = 13210
MS = 1.5 * WD + 423 = 6939
OP = 1.25 * WD = 5430
Slam = 1.74 * WD + 748 = 8307

[b]Damage w/ Modifiers
Execute10 = 5694
Execute30 = 17173
MS = 10756
OP = 7602
Slam = 13707

Damage w/ Crit Bonus
Execute10= 5694
Execute30 = 17173
MS = 12331
OP = 14782
Slam = 14672

Damage w/ Incite Bonus
Execute10 = 5694
Execute30 = 17173
MS = 12761
OP = 15086
Slam = 14255

In a 6s cycle you've got 1 OP, 2 MS, and 1 Slam for a resulting rage cost of ~65 (factoring rough slam delay cost). In the same cycle you could burn that rage on two Execute30's and one OP:

Execute damage:
17173 * 2 + 15086 = 49,432

Normal damage:
12761 * 2 + 15086 + 14255 = 54,863

That's a difference of 905 dps. I'll admit, it's actually closer than I originally thought. Keep in mind that this is pretty much the ideal Execute usage, and you'll probably never see that usage in the real world.

marklar
01-31-2011, 03:37 PM
5 rage is not going to help you not be rage starved. learning the right times to slam and/or hs will help you alot more than 5 rage on zerker rage use....

my point is it's the only minor glyph that can make any difference at all (outside of one of the shout glyphs if you're responsible for the buff). 5 rage has often been the difference to me for being able to get that MS on cooldown or delaying it; it allows me to be just slightly more aggressive knowing i have that 5 rage buffer (off the GCD) when i need it.

to say we shouldn't glyph it because "it makes you use zerker rage on fights when you shouldn't" makes little sense.


execute is a bad use of a global for arms. it hits like crap and uses 30 rage, doesn't apply lambs, and spamming it will leave you without the rage to even keep cs, rend, ms, and op going. you can use it if you have 2/2 executioner to stack the buff and replace a slam when you need to keep the buff stacked, but to say execute is a great use of a global is wrong.

i didn't say execute spam - i still keep up CS buff and the slaughter buff. but looking at a recent log, my average OP (usually with LttS) was 19,829, my average MS (usually without LttS) was 13,964 (bump it up to 18,153 after patch), my average slam was 13,279, and my average execute was 32,103. that still seems like a nice use of a GCD to me. slam is getting boosted, but not to that extent.

and it's not 30 rage, it's minimum 10, maximum 30, but always leaves you with 10 after (the damage/rage is linear). you can keep up your rotation, IF you keep up the executioner buff, which the OP called "honestly, not that great". 25% haste is equivalent to 3203 haste rating that is up constantly for 20% of the fight, for TWO talent points - it seems great to me.


the only time ht glyph is good is if you are the only one that can apply the debuff, which if that's true you will be the only one benefiting from it. if you don't have a prot warrior in your raid, no druids of any kind, no rogues, or any hunters, then you can just use sunder and not reset your swing timer by using ht.
glyphs are situational, and now we don't even need to carry stacks of them around. for any fight where you don't need the cleave glyph, HT is good. don't worry about resetting your swing timer, because you don't use it during the fight. HT as you're moving in and save yourself 1 GCD.


there are no other places to pull points from to pick up 2/2 drums so idk where you are getting points from for that.
tactical mastery, although to be fair, i haven't tried stance dancing yet, so i can't compare.

there is some good information here so don't take this the wrong way, but as far as a definitive arms guide i don't think this is good enough for a sticky. if you're going to author "the most accurate guide to Arms", you're going to need to back up your ideas with logs. if your way is really the way to go, it should be easy to see the results. even something as simple as argaloth would be fine.


In a 6s cycle you've got 1 OP, 2 MS, and 1 Slam for a resulting rage cost of ~65 (factoring rough slam delay cost). In the same cycle you could burn that rage on two Execute30's and one OP:

btw, you've compared a 5.5s cycle with a 4.0s cycle - not exactly apples to apples.

Kazeyonoma
01-31-2011, 03:58 PM
I'll just leave it stickied for now so it's available for people to discuss it more. I'll admit i didn't read through it entirely before sticking it, but shiz is someone I've come to count on for good info, and he'll obviously fix any discrepencies that you guys find.

squats
01-31-2011, 04:33 PM
Id have to say i agree with malkar on the glyph of berserker rage. 5 rage is 5 rage. regardless of when you use it. it gives a little bit of rage.
It would be good practice to monitor your usage of it so you dont run into cases where you cant get out of a fear.

Shiz, i dont see the haste bonus added into your math for execute usage. Also, are you adding in the benefits with deadly calm uptime? Execute damage weaved in at 0 rage cost.. im sure execute hits harder than something.

And on the glyph of heroic throw. With devastate being so low on the prot warriors threat rotation. being able to add a stack at the start of the fight, and refresh it here or there in the fight, it doesnt seem like that bad of an idea to pick this up. The less the prot warrior has to trade a better ability for devastate in their rotation, the more threat they can do. I dont see this as a big deal.. but it does help. this allso assumes your using a prot warrior, if your not.. this glyph is a no brianer

Kazeyonoma
01-31-2011, 05:04 PM
execute bypasses deadly calm, it costs rage regardless.

shiz98
01-31-2011, 05:47 PM
Hm. I'd written out a long post addressing the above posts, but I don't really want to start posting more long, errr, posts (have I said posts enough?). Now, normally I'd make a concerted effort to be fair and cordial, and to approach writing from a position of humility as much as possible. However, I'm going to sacrifice all that for brevity. Sorry if this offends anyone...

First, I want to give us some context here: the things we're discussing as inaccurate in this guide are:

A minor glyph
A major glyph
Execute range and the resulting talenting


And of course the gemming section, which I hastily threw together out of memory, which turned to be horribly bad.

What no one's debated thusfar are:

Stat priorities
Non-execute rotation
95% of the talents


Which are the most important parts of the guide. Amortized, the DPS difference we're talking about is something in the low hundreds (and that's assuming I'm proven wrong, of which I'm not yet convinced). That hardly invalidates the whole guide.


if your way is really the way to go, it should be easy to see the results
This isn't always the case. For example, those of you arguing that Glyph of Berserker Rage is mandatory would be hard-pressed to collect enough data to show it, regardless of the strength of your argument.

--

Returning to the Execute debate...


btw, you've compared a 5.5s cycle with a 4.0s cycle - not exactly apples to apples.
No, it's 5.5 to 5.5. If you assume the rage is constant, and that you're using Execute optimally, you're rage starved for one GCD using Execute.


25% haste is equivalent to 3203 haste rating that is up constantly for 20% of the fight, for TWO talent points - it seems great to me.
White damage is small portion of your DPS, so getting a 25% buff to that isn't very wonderful. The 25% bonus rage may be useful, depending on how you dump it (whether via HS, or by giving yourself more leeway for Execute use). I haven't done the math on it, and neither have you, so I think assuming it's awesome is jumping to a large conclusion when you consider that you're missing out on two talents that are useful for 100% of the fight rather than 20%. Any DPS gain Execute provides has to be judged in light of the full-fight damage gain from any other talents.

squats
01-31-2011, 05:52 PM
execute bypasses deadly calm, it costs rage regardless.
this is gay.

Destruyen
01-31-2011, 05:55 PM
First, I want to give us some context here: the things we're discussing as inaccurate in this guide are:

A minor glyph
A major glyph
Execute range and the resulting talenting


And of course the gemming section, which I hastily threw together out of memory, which turned to be horribly bad.

What no one's debated thusfar are:

Stat priorities
Non-execute rotation
95% of the talents


tbh for a "first edition" of an arms warrior guide for a new xpac that's pretty damn good if that's the only things people can't agree on, which some could be filed under personal tastes.

shiz98
01-31-2011, 06:02 PM
On the subject of Glyphs, I'm loathe to recommend anything over something else (except for primes, and I certainly hope we don't need to debate those). Here's why: It's all situational. This part here?


And on the glyph of heroic throw. With devastate being so low on the prot warriors threat rotation. being able to add a stack at the start of the fight, and refresh it here or there in the fight, it doesnt seem like that bad of an idea to pick this up.
Is absolutely correct. Maybe your prot warrior doesn't make stacking sunders a priority. Maybe you don't have a prot warrior and you need to do it yourself. Heck, maybe your prot warrior is fine -- you'd still stack it a second or two factor. There are totally situations where that's valid.

But there are also situations where other glyphs are more valid. Maybe you're doing a fight with lots of adds that are dying and your healers are having trouble, and maybe that means that you should pick up Glyph of Victory Rush (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43431). That's valid too. But if I say in the guide "You should get Glyph of Heroic Throw," I might convince someone otherwise, and then they'd make the wrong choice. I'm not going to do that, because the benefit is so minute, and the potential downside is much greater.

The same goes for Berserker Rage. Yeah, it might be the best glyph, but that's min/maxing to a ridiculous extent, and not enough for me to recommend it over something else. Like I mentioned in the guide, I don't personally use it (which isn't to say you shouldn't either). I specifically mention in the section that it's a "popular choice," but I feel the trap I found myself in may be useful information for someone considering using it, which is why I threw it in there.

squats
01-31-2011, 06:09 PM
I wasnt so much saying that you should say they need to get that glyph(s). And i think you know that. But im more saying that you shouldn't tell them that you dont find something terribly useful in your guide. Doing so pretty much tells people to not get that glyph at all.

shiz98
01-31-2011, 06:26 PM
That's fair. I'll be fixing that in the next update.

marklar
02-01-2011, 02:50 AM
to be fair, you claimed this as the end-all, be-all guide to arms, and every other guide is wrong, which is why i'm nitpicking it. i thought the rotation, stat, etc was pretty good. overall, i think the guide is good.

however, you made some absolute statements about glyphs that WILL mislead people. saying a glyph is bad, when it's quite good in some situations is not correct. i did not make any absolute statements about glyphs, and in fact, i ONLY use the HT glyph when there are no adds in the fight. in that case, it IS the superior choice. cleave/SS are much better in fights with adds. you also made a bizarre statement about the zerker rage glyph that will mislead people as well. there is no real downside to the glyph and there is a small upside. name 3 glyphs that are better?

execute is available for 20% of the fight, so it's an important range. you've also made some absolute statements about execute and the executioner talent that i disagree with and i haven't seen anything to change my mind yet. you claim haste only affects white damage, but it also affects rage generation. 3203 stat point allocation is a LOT, even it's one of our weaker stats, and you completely ignored it when doing your execute damage comparison.

the real value in the talent, imo, is not the extra white damage - it's the extra rage generation. if i can find the formula for rage generation, i'll try and figure out how much additional rage/sec the talent gives you. then it should be easy to give it a dps value. while i haven't done any math on the talent yet, i'm not just "assuming" it's better. i have been raiding with and without the talent, and i can tell you it makes keeping up your rotation during the execute phase much easier.

the only thing i'm giving up to pick up the talent is one extra point in RI (which is a wasted point much of the time), and PH (which i've not found a lot of use for yet). normally, i'm a big PH fan, but my trade off is PH vs. 1/2 RI.

so your comparison rotation is 4 GCD abilities vs 3 GCD abilities? it's no wonder the first one wins.
17173*2 + 15086 = 49,432 (execute usage)
12761*2 + 15086 + 14255 = 54,863 (no execute)

if i add in another execute, the first becomes:
17173*3 + 15086 = 66,605

the thing is, you are never rage-starved with SD. execute costs a minimum of 10 rage, but SD always leaves you with 10 rage (free executes?). without executioner, pretty much all i could do was spam execute. with executioner, i can pick up most CS and MS attacks as well (sometimes with a little help from my zerker glyph). since i also always try and have DC up for execute phase, that buys me some more time of no rage problems as well.

and i do think that anyone writing the definitive guide to any spec should be willing to post logs so that others can see where they are coming from. i'm far from the top arms warriors in the logs, but i'm always willing to show where i'm working from.

woodyman
02-01-2011, 04:38 AM
I think its impossible for anyone to write the definitive arms guide at the moment,
but its always good to get lots of different inputs and work together to reach the goal that we all want which is a cookie cutter spec.

i must agree with execute at the end of a fight i can spam it and keep up my Overpowers and fit in CS and never rage starve due to the leaving you 10 rage thing + haste of executioner.
its definately not to be overlooked

swelt
02-01-2011, 05:43 AM
One way to answer the 'heroic throw glyph' section would be to add a discussion about "Should I Sunder Armor". I wasted a ton of effort sundering a boss in one of my first raids, until I realised that a feral druid for a single GCD can put up a 3 stack of faerie fire for the same effect at a much lower opportunity cost. I think as far as 'who gets sunder duty', arms warriors are pretty low down the list and that might be worth bringing up here. Of course, if you are in a group which has no better option, glyphs like heroic throw and furious sundering suddenly become much more attractive.

Or someone could bribe Blizzard a huge sum of money to change the glyph of heroic throw to apply rend instead of sunder armor and make everyone happy.

Pek
02-01-2011, 06:13 AM
Personally, I don't see the issue with Arms warriors being the sunder bots. As mentioned previously in other threads, sundering as Arms is pretty easy with glyph of Heroic throw and Colossus Smash.

Heroic throw as you charge (1 sunder), apply rend, apply colossus smash (2 sunders), then either put up a sunder straight away or just continue your normal attack priority and no doubt you will get Sudden Death proc to apply the 3rd sunder pretty quickly. Done and with next to no GCD wastage.

Really takes no effort at all but yes, a feral druid does do it much easier. Still, it's no excuse for us to not be putting sunders up.

Edit: Speaking from a 10 man raiding perspective here where we don't have a feral.

Kazeyonoma
02-01-2011, 10:46 AM
you're not "sundering" if you're using heroic throw and colossus smash, smash only works if there is already 1 stack of sunder on the boss, otherwise it won't sunder. using SUNDER ARMOR as an ability is a waste of a gcd for an already gcd capped spec, so yes there is an innate issue with making arms warriors the "sunder bots" but with smart usage of glyph of heroic throw and making sure CS never falls off, it's probably good that we do it effortlessly, but this doesn't mean "sunder bot" it means, convenient person to put up sunder. Sunder bots are typically people who have to break their rotation to add sunder armor into the debuff list. Fury warriors still have it easier here because you have open GCDs.

marklar
02-01-2011, 02:52 PM
i'd put us 3rd on the list of "sunder peeps".
1) prot warrior
2) feral drood
3) dps warrior

i don't think it matters much if it's an arms or fury warrior, since either one would want to get them up ASAP and so will end up using ONE wasted GCD (if glyphed properly) at the start of the fight (or target change). arms has the slight advantage that we will naturally refresh them more often lessening the chance of the stack falling off. i haven't played fury in a long time, so i don't know how many open GCD fury has when engaging their target. neither spec should ever need to use a GCD to refresh sunders.

what bugs me is fights where you can't help but have the stack fall off (actually, that's most of them so far ><), but i still HT, charge, rend, sunder, CS every time to stack it back up.

marklar
02-01-2011, 02:54 PM
execute ... costs rage regardless.

question of the day, does it cost rage if you use it with exactly 10 rage? O.o

squats
02-01-2011, 02:57 PM
i'd put us 3rd on the list of "sunder peeps".
1) prot warrior
2) feral drood
3) dps warrior

i don't think it matters much if it's an arms or fury warrior, since either one would want to get them up ASAP and so will end up using ONE wasted GCD (if glyphed properly) at the start of the fight (or target change). arms has the slight advantage that we will naturally refresh them more often lessening the chance of the stack falling off. i haven't played fury in a long time, so i don't know how many open GCD fury has when engaging their target. neither spec should ever need to use a GCD to refresh sunders.

what bugs me is fights where you can't help but have the stack fall off (actually, that's most of them so far ><), but i still HT, charge, rend, sunder, CS every time to stack it back up.

The thing about fury is that the CS glyph isnt 100% reliable. Sometimes its best to wait a second or two for things to come off CD and then hit CS and then sunder falls off.

IMO Arms has a much easier time keeping it up because CS refreshes a decent bit for them. But regardless of what spec is easier to keep Sunder up on. If you have a prot warrior, and a fury/arms warrior. Sunder should never fall off.. ever.

Kazeyonoma
02-01-2011, 03:21 PM
question of the day, does it cost rage if you use it with exactly 10 rage? O.o

IT COSTS SOMETHING GODDAMNIT, CUZ THE INVERT OF 0 Is 0 BUT DIVIDING ANY NUMBER BY 0 IS INFINITY, GET IT?

squats
02-01-2011, 03:26 PM
IT COSTS SOMETHING GODDAMNIT, CUZ THE INVERT OF 0 Is 0 BUT DIVIDING ANY NUMBER BY 0 IS INFINITY, GET IT?

SHUT UP KAZ YOU'RE GOING TO BREAK THE WEBSITE!

http://blogs.microsoft.co.il/photos/barbaro/images/673615/436x252.aspx

Nez
02-01-2011, 03:49 PM
I think this requires further testing on the Holodeck!

Destruyen
02-01-2011, 03:51 PM
i'd put us 3rd on the list of "sunder peeps".
1) prot warrior
2) feral drood
3) dps warrior

moonkin, resto druids, assassination rogues, and fury warriors are all better at maintaining sunder better than arms

Muffin Man
02-01-2011, 04:14 PM
question of the day, does it cost rage if you use it with exactly 10 rage? O.o

You know, it was buggy as all hell in LK. There were times where I would execute back to back and not have rage to do it a third time.

That was with improved execute mind you.

And since I haven't specced into that in Cata I don't know if it's still buggy or what.

Krenian
02-01-2011, 04:33 PM
Would you not simply be able to shift your lowest damaging ability in your rotation and replace it with Execute instead? Say drop, oh, I dunno, OP or Slam and use Execute? If I recall, for Fury, Execute is the most damage per rage we got and that's why Fury spams it. I also did not see any particular talent in Fury that increases damage on Execute so both are pretty much on par for both specs.

Count me as a skeptic but the fact if you can get Executioner which will give you added haste, which will give you a chance to proc your Mastery and give you more rage to Execute at a higher amount of rage used...I'm a lil curious. I saw your math Shiz and let me be the first to say that math is my weaker point, however I still am not convinced and I'm trying to figure out what you're not accounting for.

I know Haste is a bad stat for Arms. Fine, I get that. But it's not the most terrible stat on the sole fact it'll allow you to throw out Executes sub 20% that hit way harder.

Just my two cents!

Kazeyonoma
02-01-2011, 04:36 PM
swords of opportunity don't generate rage.

we don't have 2 weapons to generate as smooth rage as execute

we have 2 abilities that are more important than just spamming execute while you only have 1 (we both have CS, but we have MS for lambs buff as well)

we have a super rage efficient high damage high crit chance ability that you don't (OP)

really we could squeeze out slam from our rotation but that'd only work, as something we do with our core rotation isn't up, AND only if we have 30 rage, at 10 rage, execute is not damage/rage efficient at all from what my logs tell me.

marklar
02-01-2011, 04:48 PM
moonkin, resto druids, assassination rogues, and fury warriors are all better at maintaining sunder better than arms

moonkin - costs him 3 GCD vs. 1 GCD for arms, although his duration is certainly much better. for fights where we have to stop attacking the boss long enough that sunder drops off, i'd agree with you. for fights with one target, i can't see how they're better. for fights with target switching, you have to multiply the target changes x3 for moonkin GCD's spent and x1 (or x2) for warriors.

resto druid - i would never ask a healer to use 24% of base mana + 3 GCD to put up FF at the start of a fight. and on any fight with target switching, or where sunder needs to be reapplied, forget it.

rouges - similar to warriors in inital cost (1 GCD), but rogues have to waste a GCD to refresh it every minute. if not talented (no idea if those 2 talent points are typically taken), it actually costs them two extra GCD to build up 5 CP.

fury - USED to be much better at sunders, but i'm not sure what the advantage to fury is now. yes, they have free GCD during the fight, but that's not how we typically refresh sunder anymore. with glyph of CS, sunder maintenance is free. i think i agree with squats - because fury can't refresh CS, they are always in more danger of losing their stacks.

marklar
02-01-2011, 05:06 PM
Count me as a skeptic but the fact if you can get Executioner which will give you added haste, which will give you a chance to proc your Mastery and give you more rage to Execute at a higher amount of rage used...I'm a lil curious. I saw your math Shiz and let me be the first to say that math is my weaker point, however I still am not convinced and I'm trying to figure out what you're not accounting for.

I know Haste is a bad stat for Arms. Fine, I get that. But it's not the most terrible stat on the sole fact it'll allow you to throw out Executes sub 20% that hit way harder.


haste is a bad stat because it would take a ridiculous amount of haste rating to make much difference, and you're sacrificing better stats to get it. however, executioner is 2 talent points that give you an enormous amount of haste all at once. as kaz pointed out, opportunity strikes do not give rage; BUT, haste does mean more opportunity strikes (due to more white hits), so the talents actually boosts the value of your mastery as well. it's not just a white damage increase.

check my quick math, but if white damage is 12.8% and mastery is 7.6% of my damage, executioner means 5.1% overall dps increase for two talent points? and that's not counting the extra rage generation at all.

execute in my logs hits far harder than anything else. what i've been playing with is swapping to zerker stance at 20%, letting rend drop off, and simply CS > MS > execute. yes, i lose some rage efficiency due to losing OP, but i gain 10% damage on absolutely everything else.

Kazeyonoma
02-01-2011, 05:15 PM
you gain 5% damage, not 10% because battle gives 5% also.

marklar
02-01-2011, 06:04 PM
you gain 5% damage, not 10% because battle gives 5% also.

good point. but 5% damage to all white damage, all mastery, all CS, all MS, and all executes plus the added benefit of not having to use a GCD to refresh rend, i think makes up for losing OP.

at least that's what i've been trying out lately.

Krenian
02-02-2011, 06:04 AM
swords of opportunity don't generate rage.

we don't have 2 weapons to generate as smooth rage as execute

we have 2 abilities that are more important than just spamming execute while you only have 1 (we both have CS, but we have MS for lambs buff as well)

we have a super rage efficient high damage high crit chance ability that you don't (OP)

really we could squeeze out slam from our rotation but that'd only work, as something we do with our core rotation isn't up, AND only if we have 30 rage, at 10 rage, execute is not damage/rage efficient at all from what my logs tell me.

Alright, so it doesn't generate rage, but it doesn't meant that SoO isn't extra damage and by getting more swings in, you won't proc it which could bring up your DPS on that basis. I'm not saying it's a HUGE gain, nor am I even saying it's a good gain. It's a marginal gain at best and I can understand the idea behind the fact that you're getting little to no benefit, but that doesn't remove the fact that there is a benefit. I'm just saying, if we're here to maximize dps, why not?

From what i've seen so far playing Arms, Rage is hardly an issue to be honest with you. The only complications that I've seen when playing Arms is having to fit all my attacks before i'm GCD locked. Maybe that's just me but there are times I just sometimes forget that during my dead times, I'm supposed to Slam. Go figure. But anyway, the point is that I'm sure you can shove Execute in there instead of slam which is still a cast and still stops your swing timer for that cast for something that's instant and prolly stronger in damage.

I'm not saying you should not use OP either. I'm just saying, keep MS for LttS. Keep OP because it's a high crit attack. Rend needs to be up, and CS whenever it comes off CD...but I would probably wanna analyze Execute vs Slam. And figure out how much of a 25% increased haste could proc other things such as my mastery etc etc etc.

But again, I'm just extrapolating certain ideas.

Kazeyonoma
02-02-2011, 10:44 AM
well the key thing will be that once the patch rolls along, slam will hit harder, and hs will suck, so we'll probably spec out of incite, which means we'll have free points to move around, which means, we'll probably pick up executioner, which means we'll probably want to execute instead of slam during the final 20% to utilize that buff.

marklar
02-02-2011, 12:21 PM
And figure out how much of a 25% increased haste could proc other things such as my mastery etc etc etc.

didn't i just do that?

check my quick math, but if white damage is 12.8% and mastery is 7.6% of my damage, executioner means 5.1% overall dps increase for two talent points? and that's not counting the extra rage generation at all.


From what i've seen so far playing Arms, Rage is hardly an issue to be honest with you. The only complications that I've seen when playing Arms is having to fit all my attacks before i'm GCD locked. Maybe that's just me but there are times I just sometimes forget that during my dead times, I'm supposed to Slam.
that's probably because you're skipping slam too much. when keeping slam in your rotation, there is very little rage to spare. during execute phase, there is none.


well the key thing will be that once the patch rolls along, slam will hit harder, and hs will suck, so we'll probably spec out of incite, which means we'll have free points to move around, which means, we'll probably pick up executioner, which means we'll probably want to execute instead of slam during the final 20% to utilize that buff.
oh, you guys are spec'd into incite? O.o i find that outside of DC, i use HS very little, so i'm saving those 3 points already.

Muffin Man
02-02-2011, 01:49 PM
plus the added benefit of not having to use a GCD to refresh rend

Are you sure this is a benefit? You lose 6 ticks of rend which is easy 15k damage at least, and 3 OP procs. Which using Shiz's numbers out perform a 10 rage execute but not a 30 rage execute, but if I were more math inclined I'd guess is at least competitive with a 30 rage execute it on average damage (due to the huge crit chance bonus).

Plus, 3 OP procs incur 3 1-second GCDs, which nets you an extra GCD to do something that you couldn't do if you had Executed 3 times. Like Execute, which leads me too:


oh, you guys are spec'd into incite? O.o i find that outside of DC, i use HS very little, so i'm saving those 3 points already.

Even though we should still be slamming, HS still hits really really hard (why it's getting nerfed after all).

So with DC, Heroism, Blood Frenzy procs, Battle Trance procs there's still plenty of opportunity to use HS.

Still will be after 4.0.6, but it won't be worth speccing into anymore.

Which means, I do think Improved Execute will be worth speccing into. Execute range lasts a long time, longer than bloodlust most of the time, so why not give ourselves a nice buff for that duration? I just don't think it'll be worth it to completely alter our rotation for it (but I could be wrong).

Krenian
02-02-2011, 03:06 PM
didn't i just do that?



that's probably because you're skipping slam too much. when keeping slam in your rotation, there is very little rage to spare. during execute phase, there is none.


oh, you guys are spec'd into incite? O.o i find that outside of DC, i use HS very little, so i'm saving those 3 points already.

Fair enough, didn't notice your math. Still a decent upgrade in the min/max area.

Also, I could be skipping slam, no doubt. But I figure that even adding slam in there, you could simply replace Slam with Execute.

I haven't played Arms since I hit 85 honestly so I don't know how it does in raid like situations. At this point, it's pretty much all stipulations. However with Slam's added buff, I can see where Execute would be less desirable.

marklar
02-02-2011, 05:11 PM
Are you sure this is a benefit? You lose 6 ticks of rend which is easy 15k damage at least, and 3 OP procs. Which using Shiz's numbers out perform a 10 rage execute but not a 30 rage execute, but if I were more math inclined I'd guess is at least competitive with a 30 rage execute it on average damage (due to the huge crit chance bonus).

Plus, 3 OP procs incur 3 1-second GCDs, which nets you an extra GCD to do something that you couldn't do if you had Executed 3 times.

no, i'm not sure of anything, which is why i'm so interested in this thread.

however, looking at my logs instead of math, i notice my average OP is 19,829 and my average execute is 32,103. obviously, this is at various rage levels (10-30), but this is a raid log and so it's a realistic average. i BELIEVE the damage/rage scales linearly from looking at the formula, so i'm not sure it matters at how much rage i push it.

what i'm trying to perfect at 20% is this:
1) swap to zerker
2) stack 5x executes
3) CS > MS > ex until dragonkin trinket is at 5 stacks & CS is off CD
4) CS
5a) use trinket/DC/recklessness/golemblood pot
5b) MS > ex > ex (HS until DC is over, of course)
6) CS > MS > ex until dead

right now i'm seeing a pretty good dps boost at the end of fights, and i'm far from perfect on the order of things. i think it will get better as i get more disciplined at hitting this list properly. i need to come up with an "uber" macro to help me pop everything at once - right now i'm pushing all the buttons manually ><

another question is whether it's worth waiting for rage to hit 75 before going "uber" in step 5a and then adding IR to the list.

marklar
02-03-2011, 11:41 AM
tried this last night - since almost all of it is off the GCD, the macro was pretty simple actually.
/cast recklessness
/use Fury of Angerforge
/use Golemblood Potion
/cast Deadly Calm
/cast Inner Rage
/cast Colossus Smash

my rage was not high enough for IR to be used, but my dps spiked to about 32k at this point, according to WoL :)

Pek
02-03-2011, 08:45 PM
Can you link your logs please Marklar

marklar
02-04-2011, 03:15 PM
yes, i thought i linked one earlier, but i can't find it now.
we don't have a lot of bosses down yet, but here's the one where i tried that macro i was talking about (it was not during a head phase, unfortunately). my personal dps could have been better this attempt, as i remember goofing up a few times. and of course, parries suck!
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/28vtlunlwp30rp61/sum/damageDone/?s=3746&e=4142

here's an earlier BH, but i didn't chain cooldowns at all this fight:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/2a8mt0p0spl648f0/sum/damageDone/?s=729&e=970

the guild is "clothing optional" on dragonblight if you want to see more. i haven't bothered spec'ing incite and using HS since it's getting nerfed.

marklar
02-07-2011, 03:05 PM
i would love to see other logs to compare to, btw. higher or lower (but especially higher), with comments about your attack priority.

gacktt
02-08-2011, 02:49 AM
I'm really bad at calculating spreadsheets so could someone give a general % increase in our DPS after 4.0.6? I'm doing 11,500 on a dummy without a metagem currently using a purely MS/OP/Slam rotation with no heroic strikes and no storm/calm/consumables.

I'm hoping with raid buffs, permanent lambs to the slaughter buff and +15%ms/20%slam damage I could do 16-18k sustained.

woodyman
02-08-2011, 05:35 AM
isnt it more than 20% slam damage as now slam is buffed by war academy + the 145% ability damage?

i make slaam totally buffed and with lambs to the slaughter 210% wep damage
also cost of mortal strike rage is being reduced by 5 rage which altho sounds small will make a fair differance to the amount of spare rage we have to dump into abilities that are off the GCD ie HS

If you could look at % of damage done by your slam in ur overall test on dummy i woukld think u could guestimate what sort of increase we shud be seeing??

gacktt
02-08-2011, 05:45 AM
slam is 145% x 1.2(imp) x 1.15(academy) = 200% weapon damage, 260% with lambs. Of course, that is assuming that the rumors of imp slam being additively instead of multiplicative is wrong.

woodyman
02-08-2011, 06:08 AM
If that is true plus the fact that it costs a bucket load less rage than HS spamming did plus the reduction in MS rage cost.
Im starting to get quite excited about the possibilities here :)

Has anyone thought about still keeping incite build
My theory is that to dump rage (i think we will have alot more spare now) we will still only be able to use HS as its off the GCD
therefor Incite will still see us a DPS increase and i cant see anything else on the trees that would make better use of the 3 points to be honest

Also re reading patch notes nearly every buff given to arms helps fury as well (slam and war academy)

on the other hand all the buffs to Fury are fury specific, i think the chances of this helping us catch fury are slim

gacktt
02-08-2011, 08:55 AM
My slam is now 234% weapon damage, 297% with lambs up. This is obviously a text error as my slams only do equal damage to a 187% weapon damage mortal strike with 232% weapon damage.

Of course, mortal strike is supposed to be 190% weapon damage by default and about 250% with lambs, so I really have no damn clue with blizzard.

Only doing 15.5k dps on argaloth, arms is still god awful.

Muffin Man
02-08-2011, 12:49 PM
Also re reading patch notes nearly every buff given to arms helps fury as well (slam and war academy)

Our biggest buff was the Lambs buff though. The recklessness buff also helps any Arms warrior willing to stance dance for a nice burn phase as well (even if you don't have tactical mastery you can pair it with DC).


My slam is now 234% weapon damage, 297% with lambs up. This is obviously a text error as my slams only do equal damage to a 187% weapon damage mortal strike with 232% weapon damage.

Of course, mortal strike is supposed to be 190% weapon damage by default and about 250% with lambs, so I really have no damn clue with blizzard.

But I do.

MS - 150% base * (1.1 glyphed + 1.15 war academy) = 187.5%

So it looks like bonus damage is additive. Which makes sense, this means all the buffs are consistent when applied to all warriors at all levels / talents.

But that's for passive damage, notice that battle stance isn't factored into that? So I'm not assuming that Battle Stance and Lambs are additive to that.

marklar
02-08-2011, 01:19 PM
Only doing 15.5k dps on argaloth, arms is still god awful.

got a log?

gacktt
02-08-2011, 08:01 PM
got a log?

No it was just some pug and I'm mainspec tank. IT's about 30% slam, 20-20 with ms/op, 10% auto attack, 10% opportunity, rest is wounds/rend/avalanch.

woodyman
02-09-2011, 04:30 AM
would love to know what sort of increase people are seeing if any and also if they are finding more spare rage to dump into HS?

it seems fury has seen a nice increase in DPS so i cant see us catching them anytime soon but any increase is good in my eyes
i was doing around 11-13k dps b4 the patch so to be honest if i was hitting 15k dps now i wouldnt be that unhappy.
but then im only geared 333-346 and a couple of rep epics, so its all relative to be honest

marklar
02-09-2011, 10:03 AM
i only ran a heroic last night, so it's really hard to judge so far. it FELT like i was doing a bit more dps, but i should be raiding tonight, so i'll see for sure. hopefully we have TB so i can get a direct comparison - some of the other fights are hard to judge.

definitely loving the change to slaughter; gives me one less thing to micro-manage in the rotation. however, i was still NOT finding much rage to dump into HS.

Kahmal
02-09-2011, 10:31 AM
I just went on the target dummy against a Fury Warrior friend whose a bit more geared he's got 2 epic trinkets, one pvp weapon and a couple more epics. My only epic is my belt and PvP weapon. We were pretty much neck and neck with myself spiking above at times. Mind you there was no execute phase which probably would do him way more justice, but i was still in my PvP spec, no incite (if it's even worth it), no Glyph of Slam either.

Seems solid, but mind you I've been playing a warrior way longer then my friend has, who is by no means bad but just not as good as mwa :D.

Really wish they didn't have to kill Arms in PvP tho for this...

shiz98
02-09-2011, 12:23 PM
check my quick math, but if white damage is 12.8% and mastery is 7.6% of my damage, executioner means 5.1% overall dps increase for two talent points? and that's not counting the extra rage generation at all.
That's probably a good ballpark. You've got to factor in the difference from using Execute and the difference from the extra rage, but that's rather tricky and probably not a huge difference overall (maybe 1-2%?). What I keep coming back to though, is that it's a ~5% damage increase for 20% of the fight (probably less in practice, since other dps specs get a dps boost sub-20% as well, which would make it go faster), for a 1% difference overall. That's where it gets tricky.


Are you sure this is a benefit? You lose 6 ticks of rend which is easy 15k damage at least, and 3 OP procs. Which using Shiz's numbers out perform a 10 rage execute but not a 30 rage execute, but if I were more math inclined I'd guess is at least competitive with a 30 rage execute it on average damage (due to the huge crit chance bonus).
More directly, I think you'll get a bigger benefit out of being able to dump more rage into Execute by saving it with OP/Rend, since they both have relatively high damage:rage ratios.

Overall I think the real missing piece of the puzzle for Arms right now is execute range. There's a lot of complex interactions between haste, rage and execute, and I feel that there's a good bit of optimization to be done there. I'd like to actually spin that off into its own thread and see where we go.

On another note, the guide is now updated with the latest round of corrections.

marklar
02-09-2011, 12:49 PM
That's probably a good ballpark. You've got to factor in the difference from using Execute and the difference from the extra rage, but that's rather tricky and probably not a huge difference overall (maybe 1-2%?). What I keep coming back to though, is that it's a ~5% damage increase for 20% of the fight (probably less in practice, since other dps specs get a dps boost sub-20% as well, which would make it go faster), for a 1% difference overall. That's where it gets tricky.

true, if i could move those points into something that would give me an overall 1% dps boost for the whole fight, i might do that. but where would i move them?

KillerSquirrel
02-09-2011, 01:40 PM
Woops, should be in another thread, sorry.

shiz98
02-09-2011, 02:37 PM
Oh yeah, I mean, 1% is still 1% and that still makes it a good place to put points. In my mind though, the small-ish dps increase puts it into the category of choice, and wouldn't necessarily make it mandatory over, say Blood and Thunder.

Of course all this assuming it really is just a 1% increase. It could very well be more substantial increase once the optimal execute range rotation is sorted out, pushing it back into that mandatory category.

Kahmal
02-09-2011, 06:30 PM
Can't really understand the Execute arguement...saying it does bad damage is kind of odd to me considering i just tried out arms in BH and it came up to 15.5% of my DPS #2. 20% of the fight.

marklar
02-10-2011, 11:54 AM
Oh yeah, I mean, 1% is still 1% and that still makes it a good place to put points. In my mind though, the small-ish dps increase puts it into the category of choice, and wouldn't necessarily make it mandatory over, say Blood and Thunder.

Of course all this assuming it really is just a 1% increase. It could very well be more substantial increase once the optimal execute range rotation is sorted out, pushing it back into that mandatory category.

i actually take both executioner and B&T. the thing i don't take yet is tactical mastery, but that's because i haven't tried it out yet, so i'll admit i can't comment on stance dancing. if it is truly a dps increase, i may have to go that way, and then it becomes difficult to decide (executioner vs. B&T vs. TM).

so far, i'm LOVING the patch - i was seeing a secksy dps increase over where i was before. unfortunately, i had to tank most of the night, but i got to dps on valiona, and i was able to pull a solid 17k, even with 12 parries ><. our strategy is for melee to stack on the tank during theralion, so i can't really avoid those.

i also completely spazzed out at 20%, unable to decide if i wanted to stay in battle stance or stay in zerker. i ended up jumping to zerker, popping recklessness/cooldowns/etc, then jumped back and fell back into my normal rotation. but looking at logs, execute still hits dramatically harder than anything else, so i'm probably going try staying in zerker next time and see how it feels in comparison.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ntna5bw24t3wfr8q/sum/damageDone/?s=3493&e=3820

shiz98
02-10-2011, 12:54 PM
Yeah I'm on the fence about stance dancing myself. I can do it optimally on a target dummy, but in boss fight I just might not have that kind of focus. It might be the sort of thing I only ever try to use during mundane DPS phases (Magmaw and Valiona seem like good candidates?).

That execute damage is interesting. When you compare your average hits to the hits of Fury warrior, there's a large disparity. It could be due to the rage mechanics, with Arms getting burstier rage leading to more 30-rage Executes. Could also be due to CD usage? I dunno.

I'm beginning to think the optimal spec/rotation is going to be TM-less, with points in BnT and Executioner; the resulting Execute stage would involve using only 30 rage executes... not sure what the best way to approach it though, regarding rage build up. We'll see...

marklar
02-10-2011, 01:31 PM
yup, i agree - the execute phase needs the most discussion at this point. i'm still unsure, especially since my execute numbers don't match what i'd expect from paper.

Muffin Man
02-10-2011, 02:03 PM
I've only been doing Executes at 30 rage as well. It hits like a truck, I can imagine that after respecing to execution I'll have a better chance to keep the rage up to replace all/most slams for Execute. The rage difference between the two abilities right now is less than 10 right (including opportunity cost on slam)?

marklar
02-10-2011, 02:15 PM
I've only been doing Executes at 30 rage as well. It hits like a truck, I can imagine that after respecing to execution I'll have a better chance to keep the rage up to replace all/most slams for Execute. The rage difference between the two abilities right now is less than 10 right (including opportunity cost on slam)?

if you hit execute with 40 rage, it costs you 30. however, if you hit it at 30 rage, it does the same damage (i think) and only costs you 20.
slam is 15 rage.

Muffin Man
02-10-2011, 04:32 PM
Have you tested that execute behavior? That seems counterintuitive to me.

Also, slam is effectively more than 15 rage, because of the pause in your swing timer.

Although using Woodyman's 6.5 rage/second normalization it's just 3.25 * haste %, so I guess the gap is 11 rage between a 30 rage execute and slam. Even less depending on how the Sudden Death refund works.

Kazeyonoma
02-10-2011, 05:53 PM
how marklar describes it is accurate. the wording is weird but it explains it technically correct, it will always leave you with 10 rage minimum, if you have excess it'll charge the full 30.

marklar
02-13-2011, 12:32 PM
another log: 17.5k in a BH pug.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/25fwyi21mr9n5dkf/sum/damageDone/?s=382&e=621

this time, at 20% i went straight to zerker, 5x execute, golem blood + recklessness, and then CS > MS > execute. i was watching, and i think i got most of the executes off with > 30 rage. max execute = 76k O.o

woodyman
02-14-2011, 04:34 AM
hmmm thats quite a nice spike in dps to finish off the fight :)
must admit ive been playing with this myself in a couple of HC's and pushed my dps up significantly every time

Kahmal
02-14-2011, 05:14 PM
another log: 17.5k in a BH pug.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/25fwyi21mr9n5dkf/sum/damageDone/?s=382&e=621

this time, at 20% i went straight to zerker, 5x execute, golem blood + recklessness, and then CS > MS > execute. i was watching, and i think i got most of the executes off with > 30 rage. max execute = 76k O.o

So the myth of Execute being fail for arms is dispelled right?

marklar
02-15-2011, 11:49 AM
30 rage execute hits so much harder than anything else, i can't see a situation to ever ignore it. i'm not yet sure whether zerker or battle stance (with rend/OP) is the better way to go, though.

Kahmal
02-18-2011, 01:01 PM
BTW is it true that Bladestorm's damage isn't enhanced by Colossus Smash? I've been hearing Warriors QQ about it on Arena Junkies, if thats the case I"ve been losing DPS with my initial opener, Charge > Rend > Colossus Smash > Overpower > Bladestorm > Overpower

marklar
02-18-2011, 02:58 PM
bladestorm is a single target DPS loss, regardless of whether it's affected by CS or not.

Kahmal
02-19-2011, 02:36 AM
bladestorm is a single target DPS loss, regardless of whether it's affected by CS or not.

So why does the guides besides this one say other wise. Their opinion is that it is deals damage every 7 seconds as opposed to every 1.5 sec globals.

Manxmadman
02-19-2011, 02:57 PM
Not sure how this will effect your guide in terms of the stance dancing, but if you go from Battle to Beserker (or vice versa for fury for whatever reason) you will loose any stacks of the 4P bonus you had, dunno if this end up loosing you the same DPS you'd gain by dancing.

Muffin Man
02-19-2011, 05:42 PM
So why does the guides besides this one say other wise. Their opinion is that it is deals damage every 7 seconds as opposed to every 1.5 sec globals.

Well, if you haven't noticed Marklar disagrees with a lot of the guide =p.

Oddly enough I was under the impression that BS was a single target dps loss as well, now that IR got redesigned.

As for your original question, while looking non-AJ sites for information about CS and BS, I did come across a bug report that CS on one target caused you to ignore the armor on all BS targets.

So that seems to contradict what AJ was complaining about, unless the bug reporter was just confused armor was instead being applied for all BS targets (totally possible, didn't see a response to the bug report).

I didn't see anything on EJ about BS / CS interaction being weird, although their thread is a giant jumble...

Kazeyonoma
02-20-2011, 04:29 AM
I've been using BS merely as a rage gaining cooldown when my other abilities are on CD and preferrably after a CS.

marklar
02-20-2011, 10:43 PM
Well, if you haven't noticed Marklar disagrees with a lot of the guide =p.


ha! i like to argue because it's a great way to really get into the details of something. in fact, i may sometimes take a contrary position not because i truly disagree, but simply to learn more details (or lack thereof) from which the original statement was made.

guides are great, but it's ok (even recommended, imo) to question them. i looked at BS by itself, and i don't see how it's a dps gain. yes, it hits every second, but it's synergy with the rest of the rotation is lacking. the damage it does, even when multiplied by 1.5x, is below everything else, as far as i can figure. look at some of the logs linked in this thread and tell me what you think.

as kaz mentioned, it can be used as a rage cooldown, although secondary to DC, since DC is a dps increase.

Ellóren
02-22-2011, 02:05 PM
I have a really, really stupid question, please bear with me.

What does it mean to keep crit and mastery fairly close together? Does it mean the absolutes (as in, 1500 each just as an example) or the values (for example, 13% crit and 13.00 mastery rating)?

Sorry, I'm being slow here or perhaps it's because English isn't my first language.

Disruptor
02-22-2011, 05:45 PM
There are major mistakes in your guide. Example : dodged or parried autohits do generate rage and dodged or parried yellow hits cost almost no rage. This is ONE of the reasons, why expertise is almost nothing worth.

And SimC calculations are pretty much screwed. Less than 10% slam is not realistic. Arms is now pretty much on the same level as Fury at DPS, maybe even slightly above plus given advantages of Arms tree.

gacktt
02-23-2011, 05:13 AM
I can do about 18k DPS sustained with badly optimized gems/chants and mostly 359 epic gear on argaloth now from 100-60% without lust or execute phase (died cause it's a lolpug). It's still godawful compared to any real dps of the same gear however.

woodyman
02-23-2011, 05:25 AM
There are major mistakes in your guide. Example : dodged or parried autohits do generate rage and dodged or parried yellow hits cost almost no rage. This is ONE of the reasons, why expertise is almost nothing worth.


So your saying if a yellow hit is parried or dodged then youre refunded a proportion of your rage?
news to me where did you find this information

Also you are forgetting the loss of a global cooldown plus the loss of damage of that swing plus the loss of oppertunity strikes plus the loss of an enrage chance if it was an MS
made up for by one extra OP even without the rage concern id still say this is far from worthless....

just been lookin around and EJ/mmo etc etc all point to Dodged / parried hits generating NO rage in cata.
im unaware that this has been changed???

Pseudocide
02-23-2011, 07:11 AM
When has it ever been beneficial to have multiple attacks dodged or parried? Woodyman is right, the risk of losing a GCD, possibility of being enraged, losing a chance at a free extra attack, plus losing the damage of the original attack far outweighs getting an extra Overpower in.

I'll take my 26 expertise and an Overpower every 6 seconds, thank you.

Disruptor
02-23-2011, 11:28 AM
Just incredible how fcked the wow community is. Keep your expertise and have fun with it. I keep my 29k DPS Alakir HC 10s and lol at the second guy in dps beeing 5k dps lower than me.

This is no new information. If you do not believe it, go check yourself. I'm tired of proving every little shit. Take this as an advice and dont be so mindfcked and believe anything from a guy who can write 2 pages of guide or thinks he is the math master because he invented some obvious crap :). I'm tired of those wannabes who think they master their spec. Just as the fact, that mastery is almost as bad as haste. Haste gets worse in fights with incoming dmg and gets attractive after you reached a specific crit softcap or the mastery hardcap. And expertise is beneath crit. You can even rely on SimC on these easy facts but not more, since SimC priority system is totally screwed.

cheers @ kaze :)

oh and @pseudocide:
exp cap in Wotlk was almost a dps loss, but whatever :)

Kazeyonoma
02-23-2011, 11:40 AM
Watch the language, there's no need to resort to that, if you want to participate in this discussion I'd like to see these 29k dps logs to prove your not just blowing smoke.

Also, you still don't address the fact that getting an MS dodged, loss of opportunity strikes, or as I've said multiple times, getting a colossus smash dodged outweighs getting an extra overpower.

You know, you did this same kind of unfounded spouting of "everyone is wrong, i'm correct, but i'm too lazy to prove shit to anyone" in the Hold the Line thread as well trying to disprove the hit table. Come back with some proof, or stay out of discussions because it's really not the point of these forums to prove trolls wrong of their unfounded assumptions after people have put the time/effort to actually lay down foundations for us to base our gameplay on.

Disruptor
02-23-2011, 12:05 PM
You know what is actually very strange. This way of thinking is illogical. If I am the guy writing a guide, I am responsible to prove that my assumptions are right.
It is not my task to prove here that his guide has wrong facts ( which are pretty easy to show ). It is his task to show that his facts are not wrong. Otherwise I could write a guide myself ( which I told you something about in the PM ).

And I don't have to address anything. I'm not going go write a half spreadsheet just to show that expertise is nothing worth. Therefore you have SimC which is "okay". But just by using some easy facts you can possibly imagine how bad expertise is. The worse fact about miss is the loss of rage. That fact is so essential and the only difference between hit and expertise besides OP so you can imagine expertise is at least beneath STR. You gain an extra OP with dodge and the crit values you have right now are so ridic. low that you do not have to look at enrage. The LttS redesign favours less expertise. And you are not nearly GCD capped without incoming DMG or huge amounts of haste. So overall a dodged slam / HS and even MS are a dps win compared to the rating you can trade into crit. Missing expertise is even efficient because you trade a 20-25 rage style into a 7-8 rage style by losing 1.0 sec which is not even a full GCD, giving you more rage than you had without the dodge to spend in further rotation. If you want to dig deep into theory it is even less important to lose 1 sec because in most cases of our rotation between 2 MS we lose 0.5 sec anyway.
Numbers and simulations have shown that expertise is even much worse than crit.

Kazeyonoma
02-23-2011, 12:12 PM
While I won't argue that it is the author of the guide that needs to be correct, you throwing out baseless assumptions is just as useless.

You claim 29k dps, but have no logs to prove it.

And you still fail to address my Colossus smash problem.

Yes it is news to me that getting dodged/parried on a yellow attack refunds 80% of the rage back, this was NOT the norm prior to cata, and was not documented in any patch, so it was something that went in, and largely went undocumented probably because the majority of players got expertise capped to avoid getting dodged in the first place. That DOES down the value of expertise, my fears are still in letting sunder armor debuff falling off because of colossus smash dodge, the lack of colossus smash debuff for instant dps boost on dodge, as well as MS getting dodged, and thus losing chance at enrage, as well as losing lamb buff.

Disruptor
02-23-2011, 12:18 PM
Dude wth. If in cases of HS, Slam, MS, dodges it is a dps win the dps loss by a dodged CS will never outweigh the dps win.

Losing SA due to a CS dodge is not realistic. Usually you have a CS ready every 13-14 seconds with decent gear. 2 CS must have been dodged to lose SA and anyways reapplying is only 1GCD which does not hurt Arms too much in most fights. In addition you can even glyph HT for that case for filling that GCD with damage. Slaughter will never ever fall off by dodged MS when you use it on CD. 0.065^3 = 0.02%. I think you can agree that this chance is pretty low.

And I wont make my Logs public by now. Because too many abuses and DPS wins are not open to the wide community. Why should I sacrifice those secrets? I would make my advantage become useless and decrease my value of playing. My guild should have a reason to stick to me and my qualities. There were even things in ICC I could abuse to be WoL #1 without having half of my gear BiS ( and no, I am not talking about unholy frenzy or buff abuses outside of raids).

( and just to clarify the meaning of troll. I don't make myself a troll when you can't prove the opposite of my assumptions. You rather make yourself a troll just to block those assumptions because somewhere in the world somebody is always smarter than you :) And I was just thinking of my Hold the Line posts, well if they changed dodged or parried hits maybe they even changed the hit-table. Ever thought of that :) ? I did not digged deep enough into my Hold the Line assumption because I wont get the gear in the next time that it might affect my tanking because I switched my role. If i have some spare time I will get back to that or in the meantime any of those EJ-Pros will find it out...)

PS: i dont know what you were doing in Wotlk, but norm Str was 1.00 , exp about 0.1 at wotlk.
And it is not necessary to take Enrage into account at all since melee hit-table is a 1 roll-system.

marklar
02-23-2011, 04:52 PM
I'm tired of proving every little shit.

you have 37 total posts; you can't have put that much effort into it.

there are no arms warriors listed in WoL in heroic Al'akir, and the highest in normal is 24k (with no dodges, btw). if you are claiming 29k, then you should be able to back it up - it's not for everyone else to prove you can't do 29k. if i claim i did 50k, does that make it real?

OP does not hit that much harder than other attacks, and so it makes no sense that just getting an OP proc would make up for not only the loss of damage, but also the lost opportunity of buffs that proc from other attacks. you don't have any kind of explanation why this would be a dps increase.

link your logs.

Disruptor
02-23-2011, 06:06 PM
OP does not hit that much harder than other attacks, and so it makes no sense that just getting an OP proc would make up for not only the loss of damage, but also the lost opportunity of buffs that proc from other attacks. you don't have any kind of explanation why this would be a dps increase.



Which would that be you whiz :) ? And I am sure you took DW munching into account. Same for the average rage left over which can be transfered into average slams until GCDcap and HS. Which would give you even more hits than a non dodged style at the end.
Gimme it hard plox 8).

Ion
02-23-2011, 06:42 PM
Which would that be you whiz :) ? And I am sure you took DW munching into account. Same for the average rage left over which can be transfered into average slams until GCDcap and HS. Which would give you even more hits than a non dodged style at the end.
Gimme it hard plox 8).

I feel stupider for having tried to read this.

Stop posting.

gacktt
02-23-2011, 07:17 PM
Overpower is weak as fk compared to MS' and slam's 240-250% weapon damage, OP is only 160ish with lambs. Add in both abilities crit buffs and OP is still the weakest average hitting ability by far. So being dodged obviously sucks.

marklar
02-23-2011, 07:23 PM
Same for the average rage left over which can be transfered into average slams until GCDcap

how are you not GCD capped?

also, i checked your guild roster and there is only one arms warrior in it that has even seen a heroic mode (hasn't downed al'akir tho) and he has reforged heavily into expertise. care to link your armory at least?

Muffin Man
02-23-2011, 07:32 PM
I can do about 18k DPS sustained with badly optimized gems/chants and mostly 359 epic gear on argaloth now from 100-60% without lust or execute phase (died cause it's a lolpug). It's still godawful compared to any real dps of the same gear however.

I don't get why you keep posting things like this. No offense, I don't really know a nice way to say this but show us a log rather than say how bad Arms dps based on your poorly maintained offspec.

Argaloth is not a good fight to compare anyways since he parries and Lambs probably drops off twice during the fight. From my experience on target dummies, it easily takes 30 seconds or so just to ramp up as Arms, stacking lambs and sunder both take awhile.

Also, was this before or after the 20% hotfix to 2h spec? I ran Halls of Origination yesterday and was pretty much doing 16k+ on every boss (yes some of them had adds) and I'm willing to bet my gear is much poorer than yours. Not to mention I still haven't respecced after the HS nerfs.

One thing people haven't really touched on, but that I've been feeling very strongly about is the concept of a 'haste minimum'. We all accept that haste is a junk stat, but there's clearly a floor where it provides enough rage for us to GCD lock our rotation. I've been been swapping trinkets to be between 3 and 7% haste and there's a big difference. On one end I have to remind myself to refresh shouts (there's just no time). And on the other end, I'm practically using Glyph of Berserker rage on cooldown.

I know Woodyman was looking into how much rage we need to keep up a rotation, any progress there? Anyone else have some thoughts?

Disruptor
02-23-2011, 08:14 PM
how are you not GCD capped?

Without damage incoming from raid environments or ridic high amounts of haste you are not able to do the full arms rotation. I already posted that blizz in the beginning of the beta and they lowered MS cost.

Overpower is not weak. You do not understand the advantages of OP and why it is so strong though its weapon coefficient is so low. First of all +50% crit which is a munching fest for DW. Another thing is the lowered GCD which basically increases OP dmg by 1/3.
2 OP just fit perfecty between 2 MS delaying MS by only 0.5 sec. And of course the rage cost. There are more things to list but I'm too tired.

Example : selfbuffed at dummy without CDs
Overpower 6510021 x% hit 90 1008611 crit 214 5501410
Slam 6396480 x% hit 307 4622752 crit 52 1773728

And for the guy hating my english. Tbh idc, I studied 14 hours today, it's 5 am for me and I'm not in the mood to check my english style. But thanks for pointing out.

Ellóren
02-24-2011, 12:51 AM
I have a really, really stupid question, please bear with me.

What does it mean to keep crit and mastery fairly close together? Does it mean the absolutes (as in, 1500 each just as an example) or the values (for example, 13% crit and 13.00 mastery rating)?

Sorry, I'm being slow here or perhaps it's because English isn't my first language.
I'm still wondering about that. I hope someone will humour me. Pretty please? :)

woodyman
02-24-2011, 01:06 AM
I dont think anyone is saying that OP is weak, i am certainly not. it is always one of my top damage abilities.
However im pretty sure that the amount of damage it brings even with the lowered GCD in many cases does not make up for the loss of the original swing + whatever other benefits (oppertunity strikes/procs etc)

but anyone i have a week off so i intend to get to work on the maths on this

As for the Rage need for a rotation
i am working on the spreadsheet, obviously the rage costs of MS being reduced has a massive effect on the overall cost of our rotation in a good way.
One thing i have noticed so far is that there is definately a certain amount of haste you do need to support your rotation however this is usually covered by the haste already on your Gear
What ive not yet worked out is just how much more you would need for it to be beneficial and if so at what cost to other stats.

looks like i have alot of maths to do....
i think i will aim to try to prove my theory on the expertise issue first as its definately more important than the haste issue IMO

marklar
02-24-2011, 02:25 AM
as far as minimum haste levels, i find that the windfury/hunter buff is pretty important, but haste on gear has too much opportunity cost, imo. with just a hunter in the raid, i can maintain my rotation completely with no free GCD's. i even squeeze off a few HS outside of BT procs. i think if anyone is having rage issues, they might need to look at reducing their HS use.

saying OP is weak is just wrong. OP is great, in fact i find OP/MS/slam hit for similar amounts, but with OP having 2/3 the GCD, so it's definitely our best attack. however, even though dodges don't affect our rage much (this part is true), you're still spending 2.5sec on one OP for every dodged special attack. yes, you get more deep wounds procs, but you could be missing a MS or CS proc.

hmm, worth trying again. i'll have to give it another go, but the last time i tried it i certainly didn't see an increase.

woodyman
02-24-2011, 02:59 AM
Ok so here goes
With the rotation of rend > CS >OP> MS >OP>slam>MS>OP>slam>MS>OP (taking 15 seconds then obv rend again)

if anyone disagrees with this rotation please inform me and ill tweak it remember the order is not important for calculating rage its just usage over the 15 seconds till you rend again.

overall cost is 140 rage
with 0% haste and a 3.6 weapon over the period of 180 second fight u make 50 auto hits
(3.6*6.5)+25% for arms = 29.25 rage per swing (ive tested this number on dummy)
+ 3 battle shouts at 20 rage each
Blood Frenzy has a 10% chance of generating 20 rage from Auto attacks
and anger management is 1 rage every 3 seconds

the average rage gained during period of the fight is 1682
1682/180 seconds * 15seconds for rotation = 140 rage per rotation

so as you can see this is bloody tight although obviously no one will ever have 0% haste
and obviously part of this is down to Blood frenzy procs an thus not a guarenteed income
also by these calculations 23% haste would grant you enough extra rage to use a HS every rotation

I have checked over all my figures vigourously but this is a work in progress and any constructive comments are welcome
its all on a spreadsheet so its easy enough to change :)

Also if u discount the Blood frenzy proc due to its ungaurenteed nature u need 7% haste to generate the 140 rage for your rotation

Disruptor
02-24-2011, 09:34 AM
Do not get me wrong. Expertise is not worthless as in Wotlk. But it is not worth to sacrifice crit for expertise. Mastery is a joke, hardly does 10% overall damage. The haste coefficient of slam is ridiculous as well and haste looks a lot worse now since HS no damage.
Expertise is good, especially because OP is not the hardest hitting ability like in Wotlk and CS is a major dps increase in our rotation. However stats prio looks like
hit>str>crit>exp


I give you a little hint to optimize your rotation. Try to get 2 OPs next to each other.
And Rend gives you 3 OPs:
15x 12 9x 6 3x 0

You didnt take CS-procs into your calculation.

You do want to have 0% haste. Because haste is even more useless after this patch. I even sacrificed my T-Set because blizzard did an awful job on this. It is bad designed and bugged as hell. And the 4piece-proc is a joke.
And you should also calculate with Ashkandi. Ashkandi NH and HC are BiS.

EDIT: I just read mmo-champion. Omg blizz needs some serious logs. I'm usually ahead of Furys and they still buff Arms. Just wow. Happy times for Arms, we might be #1 damage. The PTR patch for example will lower the value of expertiseö

gacktt
02-24-2011, 09:52 PM
70% CS and only a 15% additional(not overall) buff to OP and 25% to MS is a joke. We'd have to have double rend damage, more DW damage and an extra 10% flat damage to make up for bosses having 20% armor during CS.

Muffin Man
02-25-2011, 01:07 PM
There's also an additional 10% to Slam, although overall that's almost nothing since Slam already has a ridiculous modifier (aside: it annoys me how slam is far and away our hardest hitting ability, what's up with that?).

What's odd is these changes are a straight up nerf to fury (and possibly a wash for Arms). So are they saying Fury is too good? B/c that's news to me.

Sadly, this is also in response to PvP - raging blow is getting out of control and will only get worse with better gear.

Destruyen
02-25-2011, 07:32 PM
cs is a pvp nerf, raging blow is doing retarded dmg on high resil players with cs up. i think the dmg buff to slam, overpower, and ms will be close to balancing out. this is very early patch notes on something that isn't even on the ptr yet so as the patch gets closer they can see on the ptr if they need to buff arms dmg a little more to be competitive in pve with fury or they could revert the cs nerf they have planned and bring down fury dmg like raging blow. i wouldn't start worrying for another 2 months when the patch should be close to release.

Kahmal
02-25-2011, 07:47 PM
Question if I use CS and rend falls off I dont wanna waste a GCD refreshing rend do I? Its best to unload as much direct damage as possible while I have the bosses armor exposed correct?

Disruptor
02-25-2011, 10:27 PM
Question if I use CS and rend falls off I dont wanna waste a GCD refreshing rend do I? Its best to unload as much direct damage as possible while I have the bosses armor exposed correct?

I hope people can understand my post. It is pretty deep in matters of theorycrafting and my math expressions in English are not the best.


Basically this is one of the toughest situations for decision making. If CS gets ready between the last 3 seconds of rend you should reapply rend first.


If CS is applied before the the last 3 seconds of rend, CS uptime after rend hits 0 is x-3 where x equals the rend-uptime when CS is applied. ( where 6 beeing the highest CS uptime so x<_6 )
I would not recommend to delay the rend reapply by more than 1 second.

Here you have two situations:
1. TfB procs when rend hits 0.00 or 15.00
-> In this case I wouldn't recommend to delay rend at all. ( You could switch to zerker stance in high rage situations to burn off as much rage as possible into CS and then reapply rend. But I am not even sure about this because rend is solid DPS as OP is right now. And even in cases of infinite Rage skipping OP+rend or OP at all could be a DPS loss )

2. TfB procs when rend hits 3.00 and the next one on 12.00.
-> In this case I wouldnt delay rend reapply by more then 1 second. Anywhere near 1 second should be the "cap" because reapplying rend after 1 second does not only delay a rend tick, it delays OP as well. So if you can squeeze in a MS or slam into the last 0.5 seconds of rend, do so. Then reapply rend.
There is one special case where you want to delay rend by 3 seconds to skip 1rend-tick and 1/2 of TfB rotation to proc OP at 15.00 instead of 12.00. I would recommend to do this when you are 1. in high rage situation and 2. CS was applied x>4,5 or even x>5 to utilize CS.

Ellóren
02-27-2011, 07:44 AM
I give up :(

Muffin Man
02-28-2011, 02:45 AM
I give up :(

I'm not Shiz, but I believe he means keep the mastery and crit rating roughly the same.

That's what I'm doing anyways. In general I like crit a little more than mastery, but I figure there are crit buffs for that (food, raid buffs, ect).

woodyman
02-28-2011, 03:11 AM
talking of shiz i hope he hasnt given up on us cos he was doing some really good work.
i guess this thread has come off the rails a little bit but theres just so many questions to be asked it was bound to happen.

i also lean more towards crit as well muffin
at the end of the day crit benefits mastery (extra swings can crit)
but mastery does not benefit crit...however high levels of mastery probably produce a more stable dps increase but i dont think that will be the case for some time.
fury warrs can hit 20% crit with no fuss what so ever and yet as arms i struggle to get anywhere near that without gimping other stats, crits are really important for arms if u ask me

uve got the obvious MS crit enrage
plus there is OP crits which we use to be able to push into 100% which we cannot anymore
all this then negitivly effects deep wounds :(

Ellóren
02-28-2011, 03:19 AM
I'm not Shiz, but I believe he means keep the mastery and crit rating roughly the same.

That's what I'm doing anyways. In general I like crit a little more than mastery, but I figure there are crit buffs for that (food, raid buffs, ect).
Thank you! I'm very relieved, as that's what I've been doing. Reading the guide I was suddenly worried I had gotten it all wrong, lol.

marklar
02-28-2011, 12:06 PM
Thank you! I'm very relieved, as that's what I've been doing. Reading the guide I was suddenly worried I had gotten it all wrong, lol.

it's possible nobody answered because the thing you were asking about makes little sense (at least to me). i mean, why keep the two close at all? i pretty much always favor crit > mastery, so i'm confused about the whole premise of keeping them close.

Kahmal
02-28-2011, 10:57 PM
Lambs to the Slaughter now causes Mortal Strike to refresh Rend in addition to its current effects.

Wow, kind of have mixed feelings about this. Number one it'll make Arms a hell of a lot easier, and the main reason I play Arms is due to it's extra challenges. PvP wise keeping rend up on a target along with Hamstring is a royal pain, it was even worse when Mortal Strike was a vital debuff aswell. However many of these recent changes just lower the Warrior skill-cap such as pretty much no longer needing to go into Berserker Stance.

Disruptor
03-01-2011, 12:12 AM
Lambs to the Slaughter now causes Mortal Strike to refresh Rend in addition to its current effects.

This is one of the worst changes I have ever seen. This will totally screw your rotation and is a definite DPS loss PvEwise plus you will not be able to know when your next OP will appear without tracking TfB separately with a timeline.

I'd drop LttS if it wasn't so essential.

gacktt
03-01-2011, 03:37 AM
This is one of the worst changes I have ever seen. This will totally screw your rotation and is a definite DPS loss PvEwise plus you will not be able to know when your next OP will appear without tracking TfB separately with a timeline.

I'd drop LttS if it wasn't so essential.

Uhh it will always proc every 6 seconds? the rend damage application will always be every 3 seconds no matter how much you refresh it with mortal strike.

woodyman
03-01-2011, 07:22 AM
yeh i thought with the redesign of rend this will make no differance at all except that u never have to re-apply rend with rend ever again.
u can clip ur ticks so it makes no differance

Disruptor
03-01-2011, 09:23 AM
Nevermind. My mistake. I thought this new mechanic works only for Rend with less than 3 seconds left.

Arms could be #2 DPS.

marklar
03-01-2011, 11:03 AM
Lambs to the Slaughter now causes Mortal Strike to refresh Rend in addition to its current effects.

Wow, kind of have mixed feelings about this. Number one it'll make Arms a hell of a lot easier, and the main reason I play Arms is due to it's extra challenges. PvP wise keeping rend up on a target along with Hamstring is a royal pain, it was even worse when Mortal Strike was a vital debuff aswell. However many of these recent changes just lower the Warrior skill-cap such as pretty much no longer needing to go into Berserker Stance.

i agree - this really lowers the skill-cap on arms, which is irritating as hell. i mean, i could just play fury if i didn't want to have to think.
on the other hand, it's also a buff because we'll save those low-dps GCD's that we were using on either rend or TC.

edit: the more i think about this, the more retarded it is. wth is our rotation now?? if you remove rend, it gets stupid - CS, MS, OP... no more decisions about refreshing rend vs. TC... no more decisions about refreshing rend vs. CS... do we even have a decision tree anymore, or can i just pound on keys 1-3?

Mazar
03-01-2011, 11:25 AM
As I see it, Im all for interesting rotations and mechanics, but refreshing Rend is not complex nor involves any decisions, its a chore. You'll refresh it three seconds before it falls, one after, with TC... whatever. You refresh Rend or you refresh Rend.

Muffin Man
03-01-2011, 12:52 PM
The trend this expansion seems to be auto-refreshing dots:

Marks refreshing Serpent Sting with Chimera Shot or Unholy refreshing diseases with Festering Strikes. Warlock's on Immolate, Spriests on SW:P, ect.

IIRC even Rogues can auto-refresh Slice and Dice.

I suppose this just brings us in line with everyone else, since I suppose TC refresh wasn't intuitive for dps classes.

Kazeyonoma
03-01-2011, 03:07 PM
hrm, what to spec now that i don't need BnT....

Ellóren
03-02-2011, 12:40 AM
Kaz: Well, MS will still only refresh Rend on one mob so... Been thinking about it but I guess I'll keep BnT for group situations.

And Muffin Man: Very true, and btw, Cobra Shot refreshes Serpent Sting too for Hunters so it's not just Marks that can keep it up forever. It really is a universal trend, and if anything, it removes an annoying chore from the Arms rotation. The rotation is still far from "simple", compared to other classes/specs.

woodyman
03-02-2011, 01:08 AM
Kaz id prob take 3/3 in incite as although not amazingly useful it stil provides a small DPS increase? if u already have that then 30seconds battleshouts are always usefull too..

the only good thing i can think about this is that it does also free up yet more rage for us so we may have more to dump, but also agreed its just put us 1 step closer to fury button mashing

Disruptor
03-02-2011, 03:53 AM
I'd recommend 3/3 Incite for high rage encounters as Atramedes or Al'akir. You should use Battle Shout when MS CD is between 1,0-1,5, ( assuming you use 2 OPs between 2 MS ) next swing is > 2 seconds and your rage is below 35. In low rage encounters or training at the dummy you could squeeze a Battle Shout between 2 OPs and the next MS in case you might miss the rage for the next MS - Slam - Slam ( or CS if ready ).

In case of no damage incoming I'd take 2/2 Booming Voice and 1/3 Incite. In any other case 3/3 Incite sounds favorable.
Rude Interruption 2/2 could be useful for Atramedes HC, Maloriak HC, Nefarian HC, Cho'gall HC. In every other kick situation 2/2 RI is a waste.

marklar
03-02-2011, 11:11 AM
the thing i don't like about the direction arms is heading is we're reducing the gap between a well played arms warrior and a poorly played arms warrior. i almost expect to see patch notes that say "Mortal Strike now applies rend, refreshes rend, applies the CS debuff, stacks sunders, and makes you sexy".

warriors already have a very, very easy dps spec to play; i'm not sure we need two. or maybe i'm just overreacting - we'll see how it plays out.

Kazeyonoma
03-02-2011, 01:55 PM
i'm with you, but we'll see how it pans out.

btw, look, i broke top 200 dps parse as an arms warrior on stateofdps:
http://search.stateofdps.com/?name=Kazeyonoma&guild=&server=&class=

and my gear is crap too >.<

woodyman
03-03-2011, 01:28 AM
True. i want them to raise the upper limit on the DPS arms is capable of but i dont want them to do that by making it easy and boring.
i guess time will tell on that one

Disruptor
03-03-2011, 01:57 AM
Arms improvement possibilites are sheer endless and if you are capable of mastering Arms you can easily dominate every fight ( except mechanics like valiona ). Mastering Arms is very complex and you rely on abuses and raid-CDs as glyphed salvation.

Arms will never get easy since its mechanics are to complex. There will always be a way to increase Arms output by raising skill requirements.

Dragaan
03-05-2011, 06:27 AM
And I wont make my Logs public by now. Because too many abuses and DPS wins are not open to the wide community. Why should I sacrifice those secrets? I would make my advantage become useless and decrease my value of playing. My guild should have a reason to stick to me and my qualities. There were even things in ICC I could abuse to be WoL #1 without having half of my gear BiS ( and no, I am not talking about unholy frenzy or buff abuses outside of raids).

So you're the best arms warrior in the world? Have you even said who your warrior is yet (I haven't read every post here)? I'm curious.

Disruptor
03-05-2011, 10:02 AM
I never claimed to be anything. I'm sure there is some korean pro or somebody who has more time to spend on WoW than me. On the other hand there are not many known people who are playing Arms very well. The only person I can think of is Hellorco.
Arms is in a way better shape than its image. People see Arms like they did in Wotlk/BC, second DPS spec of Warrior which is more complex and has way lower output than Fury. This is not true at all. SimCraft-Results are not accurate but if you check SimCraft Arms is ahead of Fury right now.
The point is why nobody realizes how strong Arms is: nobody extraordinary good plays Arms.
If you sticked to Arms since BC and understand every mechanic and every possibility to increase your output like I did you will do fine (There are even people in my guild joking and threatening me they will send the logs to Blizzard :/.). Many people refuse to play Arms because they respec, go to a dummy and see lower DPS and instantly switch back. Arms is so complex that you won't see any huge outputs without practicing alot and theorycrafting or somebody teaching you how to improve.
(Example (dummy) : I switched to SMF with 2 ilvl 372 weapons and my output was not anywhere close to my Arms output with 359.)

Krenian
03-05-2011, 10:35 AM
I never claimed to be anything. I'm sure there is some korean pro or somebody who has more time to spend on WoW than me. On the other hand there are not many known people who are playing Arms very well. The only person I can think of is Hellorco.
Arms is in a way better shape than its image. People see Arms like they did in Wotlk/BC, second DPS spec of Warrior which is more complex and has way lower output than Fury. This is not true at all. SimCraft-Results are not accurate but if you check SimCraft Arms is ahead of Fury right now.
The point is why nobody realizes how strong Arms is: nobody extraordinary good plays Arms.
If you sticked to Arms since BC and understand every mechanic and every possibility to increase your output like I did you will do fine (There are even people in my guild joking and threatening me they will send the logs to Blizzard :/.). Many people refuse to play Arms because they respec, go to a dummy and see lower DPS and instantly switch back. Arms is so complex that you won't see any huge outputs without practicing alot and theorycrafting or somebody teaching you how to improve.
(Example (dummy) : I switched to SMF with 2 ilvl 372 weapons and my output was not anywhere close to my Arms output with 359.)

Disruptor.

Part of the reason you are seeing a lot of hostility towards you on this forum is because you state certain things but you do not show any proof. You say you have the logs but you don't want to put them out in public.

This is a forum where we pride ourselves on showing proof of our calculations and to show that the truth is in the numbers. Why? Because as human beings, we are people who enjoy seeing the truth face to face instead of being told something. We live in a world where suspicion and hearsay does not really go very far. Just go to the court and see how fast you will get dismissed if you claim that Microsoft stole an idea from you that you had years ago and you have the proof, but you don't want to show it.

This is why a lot of people are having a lot of problems with you at this time. I can understand that there is a language problem when it comes to expressing yourself but I want to explain and show you that this is why you are having problems getting along with people and you are not endearing yourself to anyone on the forums.

As of this time now, we have tested the Simulation stuff and yes, sometimes Arms does come out on top. But this is after calculating every single thing possible and having everything go your way. In raids, this rarely happens. Things can happen at a whim. Fury at this time is better to adapt than Arms is.

Is it possible to do better as Arms? Of course, it's a preference of style. Even I'm starting to prefer Arms over clunky Fury and the lack of buttons to press. But you must realize that the onus at this time is on you: you need to prove to us that Arms is so much better than Fury.

As sad as I wish to use this as an example because frankly, it's because the site isn't the 'most' reliable site, look at the top 200 parses on stateofdps.com. There's a reason Arms is at the bottom with everything else.

So you're going to tell me, that the top 200 guilds have warriors that have no clue how to play Arms or their warriors at all..? I highly doubt that.

At this time, I have to say that you need to either show a screenshot of your damage or a parsing of sorts to prove your theories. Otherwise a lot of people will meet up with you with hostility because of this. You can say as much as you want that you have the parsing but the onus is on you to prove this.

This is my advice to you: Prove it, or at this time you will have a very hard time for people to say "Yep, he's right."

Destruyen
03-05-2011, 02:27 PM
Why should I sacrifice those secrets?

why post in this thread then bragging about how you are the best arms warrior of all time? this guide is all about helping other warriors out who don't want to play fury. when i was logging top 20 arms warrior parses last xpac, if someone asked me for tips or secrets on how to eek out a little more dps i would tell them.

no one on this site will take you serious with the attitude you have. so what if you say you can do 30k dps or whatever you are doing, you don't want to show your logs so you aren't going to have any credibility.

Mazar
03-16-2011, 09:56 PM
With the Arms buffs and now CS surviving the nerf in PVE, it almost makes me do a evil grin, considering I had to step out as a tank in our guild. Is somebody in the PTR looking this new changes?

Kazeyonoma
03-17-2011, 11:14 AM
I've considered it but it seems every week or two they change the ptr, so it's hard to draw any conclusives from it. aside from testing little things like does it really ignore 100% in pve but only 50% in pvp it's hard to really commit any level of maths to prove/disprove rotations when the next day they may change something core again. I don't imagine much is going to change in rotation based on what we have now though, slam damage will go up, cs whenever it's up(and not already up on the target) ms/op/slam keeping rend up.

marklar
03-17-2011, 02:40 PM
it might change the talent build a little. B&T is gone as a single target talent and becomes AOE-only. i might try spec'ing into stance dancing and giving that a try instead.

i'm still doing very nice single-target damage, so the buffs are all gravy.

Kazeyonoma
03-17-2011, 04:26 PM
oh yeah true, bnt will be for aoe only, and you'll never have to worry about rending again after it's on. but more buffs = more fun for me =P

Pseudocide
03-18-2011, 06:09 AM
I've read on EJ that the changes to MS, Slam, and OP have been reverted, leaving us with only the changes to Rend and Mastery. I'm happy to see CS survive, but I am discouraged about what I read on EJ. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Krenian
03-18-2011, 06:12 AM
You have to understand that if they kept the changes the way they were, this would have made Arms really strong to the point of OP and for them to just have to nerf us in the future. It's best to bite it in the butt now that we got our 100% Colossal Smash back. It shouldn't be that bad. If it seems Arms is lagging behind even with those changes, they may add one or two skills back in. We'll just have to wait.

Pseudocide
03-18-2011, 06:28 AM
No big deal, I was just wondering what was what. So no buff to OP, MS, or Slam as of right now. But we do get to keep CS at 100%, Rend refresh on MS, and Mastery buff.

marklar
03-18-2011, 04:59 PM
I've read on EJ that the changes to MS, Slam, and OP have been reverted, leaving us with only the changes to Rend and Mastery. I'm happy to see CS survive, but I am discouraged about what I read on EJ. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

the buffs to the other abilities were there solely to compensate for the CS nerf. since that's been reverted, obviously the compensation is gone. so the only buffs i know about are MS refreshing rend and 0.2% mastery buff. minor stuff.

Kahmal
03-18-2011, 11:07 PM
Question about cooldown synergy. I no longer have an on use trinket now that I have Heart of Rage and the Badge Trinket. So I'm wondering if I should Deadly Calm + Recklessness at the beginning of the fight, or just pop Recklessness, and then pop Deadly Calm when my trinket procs, or should I just wait to use them both until my trinket procs (which is a pain to do since I have to stance dance but it gives the tank more time to build threat that I'm going to catch up to in seconds)

Things were easier with DBW instantly procing on a white swing lol.

marklar
03-21-2011, 01:23 PM
if you don't have talent poins in stance dancing, it would make sense to use them both on the pull. i think i'll start doing that, as long as i don't find myself pulling aggro early :) if you have the points in stance dancing, then waiting until your trinket's first proc is a good idea.

at 20%, i try to line up as many cooldowns as i have, including DC, recklessness, and golemblood. but i don't wait for the trinket at that point, of course.

Deathwish238
04-14-2011, 07:31 AM
SimulationCraft keeps putting Expertise below every other stat and I'm far from cap. Most guides preach otherwise...but my DPS has been good so far with around 10 Expertise.

I'm currently doing Str > 8% Hit > Crit > Mastery > Haste > Expertise. I try to put Crit and Mastery on every piece that doesn't need Hit.

My scale factors using positive deltas only: Wdps: 11.1, Str: 2.16, Crit: 1.28, Mastery: 0.74, Haste: 0.63, Expertise: 0.60.

Edit: Does anyone have an opinion on Vicious weapons vs Heroic weapons? I have the Blade of the Fearless and the Foe Reaper. I'm currently using the Vicious Bonegrinder.

Edit: I just made a bunch of macros to do automated stance dancing(Berserker for MS, CS, Execute, Slam; Battle for Rend, OP, Throwdown) and it immediately upped my DPS. It requires 2 points in Tactical Mastery...but the difference was noticeable.



I never claimed to be anything. I'm sure there is some korean pro or somebody who has more time to spend on WoW than me. On the other hand there are not many known people who are playing Arms very well. The only person I can think of is Hellorco.
Arms is in a way better shape than its image. People see Arms like they did in Wotlk/BC, second DPS spec of Warrior which is more complex and has way lower output than Fury. This is not true at all. SimCraft-Results are not accurate but if you check SimCraft Arms is ahead of Fury right now.
The point is why nobody realizes how strong Arms is: nobody extraordinary good plays Arms.
If you sticked to Arms since BC and understand every mechanic and every possibility to increase your output like I did you will do fine (There are even people in my guild joking and threatening me they will send the logs to Blizzard :/.). Many people refuse to play Arms because they respec, go to a dummy and see lower DPS and instantly switch back. Arms is so complex that you won't see any huge outputs without practicing alot and theorycrafting or somebody teaching you how to improve.
(Example (dummy) : I switched to SMF with 2 ilvl 372 weapons and my output was not anywhere close to my Arms output with 359.)

lol secrets. The vast majority of one's DPS comes from their rotation. Once you have a perfect rotation, which isn't that hard to master...you'll reach the limit of the class' dps.

I don't think you have any secrets. There are many top players on Tankspot, any secrets are known.

skillywilly
04-14-2011, 09:36 AM
i got some questions, im geared pretty good with a 359 2h weapon , i recently got rid of 349 leggings and 349 furious warrior chest plate for elementium hardened plate which i lost hit rating and gained mastery and crit, and same with leggings i lost expeertise. for earthen leggings bought with VP,, now aftre all reforging i cant reach cap of exp so i have 25, and my hit cap the same i have 7.33 . what should i do ? its a big upgrade armor and ilvl wise? is it worth missin cap by that little?

skillywilly
04-14-2011, 09:39 AM
also last question, for dps, when im fighting a boss or whatever and execute pops. i havve a macro that switches to bersek stance and activates reclessness, and uses my imp of youth strength trinket and have gotten 100000 crits sometimes with that, yet the arms guide tell to ignore execute? why please explain?

marklar
04-15-2011, 01:21 PM
SimulationCraft keeps putting Expertise below every other stat and I'm far from cap. Most guides preach otherwise...but my DPS has been good so far with around 10 Expertise.

I'm currently doing Str > 8% Hit > Crit > Mastery > Haste > Expertise.

i find that last bit a little hard to believe. haste does so little and at least expertise is a noticeable increase. i've been doing:
8% hit > crit > expertise >= mastery >>> haste


i got some questions, im geared pretty good with a 359 2h weapon , i recently got rid of 349 leggings and 349 furious warrior chest plate for elementium hardened plate which i lost hit rating and gained mastery and crit, and same with leggings i lost expeertise. for earthen leggings bought with VP,, now aftre all reforging i cant reach cap of exp so i have 25, and my hit cap the same i have 7.33 . what should i do ? its a big upgrade armor and ilvl wise? is it worth missin cap by that little?

get your hit cap through reforging. don't worry so much if you end up under 26 expertise.


yet the arms guide tell to ignore execute? why please explain?
no decent arms guide would ever tell you to skip execute. it is by FAR the best ability we have. in fact, i wish our dps was not so end-loaded and that some of that damage could get spread around the rest of the fight. i've had execute end up #2 on my list of damage abilities, which is ridiculous for an ability only usable for 20% of the fight.

Deathwish238
04-15-2011, 02:08 PM
i find that last bit a little hard to believe. haste does so little and at least expertise is a noticeable increase. i've been doing:
8% hit > crit > expertise >= mastery >>> haste

Well my scale factors showed 0.63 for haste and 0.60 for expertise...practically the same level of crappiness. Either way, pieces with those two stats are being minimized. If someone had a piece with Haste Expertise on it, it would just need to be replaced. The optimal piece has Crit Mastery or Crit Hit.

If I tried to get Expertise cap I will have to give up a lot of Crit.



For less than 20% hp I do CS(if not up) > MS > Execute.

KillerSquirrel
04-19-2011, 08:05 AM
Edit: I just made a bunch of macros to do automated stance dancing(Berserker for MS, CS, Execute, Slam; Battle for Rend, OP, Throwdown) and it immediately upped my DPS. It requires 2 points in Tactical Mastery...but the difference was noticeable.]

KillerSquirrel
04-19-2011, 08:06 AM
Can I see your macros? I have been struggeling with stance dancing macros without having to hit them 3 times to go back to where I want to be.

Deathwish238
04-20-2011, 06:04 AM
Can I see your macros? I have been struggeling with stance dancing macros without having to hit them 3 times to go back to where I want to be.

Mortal Strike:
#showtooltip Mortal Strike
/cast Berserker Stance;
/cast Mortal Strike;

Rend:
#showtooltip Rend
/cast Battle Stance;
/cast Rend;

Similar ones for all abilities. Pretty simple and I don't have to worry about it. You just have to get used to double tapping when you're switching stances.

KillerSquirrel
04-22-2011, 10:54 AM
Thank you, but, is it two quick clicks or click, gcd, click? What do the semi colons do in macros? Or is it the same as having nothing there? I am not at my pc to test it out at the moment.

marklar
04-22-2011, 04:57 PM
Thank you, but, is it two quick clicks or click, gcd, click?

changing stances does not activate the GCD, so you just mash the button a few times. if a GCD was involved, it would kill stance dancing.

Beefius
04-27-2011, 08:04 AM
Im a long-time fury warrior trying arms out in PvE... I have a few questions though which the first post of this thread fails to address;

Expertise : why would I want to be EXP capped? if im hitting something from behind it cant block or parry, and if it dodges I get to overpower, which seems to be one of our best abilities?

My current rotation is rend > colossus smash > spam mortal strike / overpower / heroic strike as available, pop colossus smash whenever it comes off CD or procs, keep mortal striking regularly to refresh rend, pop bladestorm and any trinkets as available, deadly calm if I get rage-starved followed by inner rage to burn off the resulting excess of rage... when boss gets down to 20%, switch to fury stance, pop recklessness + deadly calm + colossus smash then spam execute and work in the odd mortal strike & overpower as possible. This seems to get good results, so am I doing it right or missing anything?

Arms seems to be a lot simpler than fury atm; 1 less ability to work into a regular rotation, less rage management required, gets nice big numbers and is especially good when a boss gets in execute range.

KillerSquirrel
04-27-2011, 09:55 AM
I use slam over HS because I didn't talent into Incite. HS only for rage dump, its not in my rotation.
And with Taste for Blood talent, you get OP procs 100% of the time when rend does dmg, so thats why EXP is capped.

Deathwish238
04-27-2011, 01:49 PM
Im a long-time fury warrior trying arms out in PvE... I have a few questions though which the first post of this thread fails to address;

Expertise : why would I want to be EXP capped? if im hitting something from behind it cant block or parry, and if it dodges I get to overpower, which seems to be one of our best abilities?

My current rotation is rend > colossus smash > spam mortal strike / overpower / heroic strike as available, pop colossus smash whenever it comes off CD or procs, keep mortal striking regularly to refresh rend, pop bladestorm and any trinkets as available, deadly calm if I get rage-starved followed by inner rage to burn off the resulting excess of rage... when boss gets down to 20%, switch to fury stance, pop recklessness + deadly calm + colossus smash then spam execute and work in the odd mortal strike & overpower as possible. This seems to get good results, so am I doing it right or missing anything?

Arms seems to be a lot simpler than fury atm; 1 less ability to work into a regular rotation, less rage management required, gets nice big numbers and is especially good when a boss gets in execute range.

You don't need to be Expertise cap...and you can't dodge from behind either. Some people do go for Expertise, but I pull high DPS by maintaining 8% Hit and trying to maximize Crit and then Mastery and minimizing Haste and Expertise.

Fury is simpler than Arms because it's easier and much more constant. Every other is move is Bloodthirst and the moves between that are either CS or Slam more or less.

Arms is more spastic with Sudden Death procs, knowing when to Slam and stance dancing for Recklessness.


I don't like to use Deadly Calm during the Execute phase because Execute still uses rage during Deadly Calm. So the only thing you could do is use it for MS and HS. I usually do Recklessness, Battle Stance, Deadly Calm + Trinket when I have CS and OP currently up.

marklar
04-27-2011, 01:54 PM
Expertise : why would I want to be EXP capped? if im hitting something from behind it cant block or parry, and if it dodges I get to overpower, which seems to be one of our best abilities?

expertise cap is not nearly as important as it is for fury, but expertise is still a good stat. having a CS or MS miss can really suck; the OP just helps to cover some of the cost, but it's still a dps loss. lately i've been at about 16-20 expertise, and it's been fine.


My current rotation is rend > colossus smash > spam mortal strike / overpower / heroic strike as available, pop colossus smash whenever it comes off CD or procs, keep mortal striking regularly to refresh rend, pop bladestorm and any trinkets as available, deadly calm if I get rage-starved followed by inner rage to burn off the resulting excess of rage... when boss gets down to 20%, switch to fury stance, pop recklessness + deadly calm + colossus smash then spam execute and work in the odd mortal strike & overpower as possible. This seems to get good results, so am I doing it right or missing anything?
slam? you've left out one of your hardest hitting, most rage efficient attacks. HS is really weak; save it for 75+ rage and BT procs and use slam as your filler instead.
be sure NOT to use CS if the buff is already up (not something you'd have to worry about when you were fury).
bladestorm sucks for single target, and it's pretty weak for two targets as well. save it for a true AoE situation.
in execute phase, keep using MS on cooldown and keep CS up as much as possible. you really want to try and get all of your executes at 30+ rage.


Arms seems to be a lot simpler than fury atm; 1 less ability to work into a regular rotation, less rage management required, gets nice big numbers and is especially good when a boss gets in execute range.
simpler to mash buttons maybe, but definitely harder to play well.

marklar
04-27-2011, 01:56 PM
You don't need to be Expertise cap...and you can't dodge from behind either.

mobs CAN dodge you when you're behind them.

Kazeyonoma
04-27-2011, 03:34 PM
yeah my expertise has dropped over time as I stopped trying to keep it maxed and my dps has gone up. obviously if you can get expertise soft capped for dodge, it'll smooth out your damage because you won't be trading an MS or execute for an overpower, but in the long run it works out. and yes, please for the love of god, spec imp slam, and use it over HS. slam is awesome.

Beefius
04-28-2011, 01:03 AM
Thanks for the replies everyone, now I have some follow-up questions :


-with Taste for Blood talent, you get OP procs 100% of the time when rend does dmg, so thats why EXP is capped.
Are DOT ticks calculated such that they can miss or be dodged, parried etc. after the dot has been applied? If so, is this calculated based on factors at the time the DOT was applied or factors subsequent ie. positioning for calculating parry / block chance?
Also, if individual ticks of a DOT could be 'dodged', wouldnt that also trigger OP?
If thats not what you meant, you'd have to miss 3x MS in a row to fail to refresh rend once it has been applied, which is pretty slim odds.

having a CS or MS miss can really suck; the OP just helps to cover some of the cost, but it's still a dps loss.
Exactly how does OP stack up against MS though? I say this because OP costs 1/4th the rage of MS, and crits 50% more often... yes MS does more damage per hit, and its crits enrage you which is neat, but you'd need to miss 3x MS's in a row to really hurt, from the absence of lambs to the slaughter and rend refreshing... and CS is great but the odds of proc'ing an extra use is 6% per attack (which it is impossible to take full advantage of due to limitations of human reaction times, tactical requirements of fights, buff-clipping, wasted procs and GCD management issues), whereas the odds of any given CS being dodged is likely much lower; 6.25% at most... intersecting probabilities are multiplicative so the odds of that happening are pretty minuscule to say the least.

You would also have to look at the damage breakdown to determine the number of attacks of each type over the course of a fight, and take into consideration what percentage of attacks it was beneficial to trade an OP for, ie. white attacks. I figure these attacks are going to outweigh MS and CS significantly by proportion.

Now, use math to prove me wrong but it seems to me that the actual loss involved in trading the rare MS or CS for an OP is likely small, offset by the likelihood of fully beneficial OP's gained, and further offset by the fact that you can use the stats taken in place of expertise to buff your crit and/or mastery which again, correct me if you have the numbers to back up an assertion to the contrary; would give a more reliable dps gain that any potential dps loss from infrequently occurring dodges of MS or CS.

I steered clear of slam initially because I recall last time I attempted arms in PvE was back in pre-4.0 wrath raiding, which I found confusing because you got instant slam procs just like fury except they were less effective and the DPS 4-piece tier 10 bonus was all about making those slam procs better... but I suppose I should give it another shot now that things are different. Ill trade away incite for improved slam and glyph it too.

KillerSquirrel
04-28-2011, 07:21 AM
Are DOT ticks calculated such that they can miss or be dodged, parried etc.
after the dot has been applied? If so, is this calculated based on factors at
the time the DOT was applied or factors subsequent ie. positioning for
calculating parry / block chance?
Also, if individual ticks of a DOT could be
'dodged', wouldnt that also trigger OP?
If thats not what you meant, you'd
have to miss 3x MS in a row to fail to refresh rend once it has been applied,
which is pretty slim odds.



With your Hit at 9% you shouldn't miss, and rend ticking very second and OP becoming available every 5 seconds, you shouldn't see a problem with misses and non procs. I am not sure if dodge's trigger procs, but I would seem to doubt it.

Vibrancy
04-28-2011, 09:53 AM
Not so sure about not expertise capping. Missing a mortal strike directly reduces time to lambs to the slaughter buff hitting 30% or god forbid it falling completely off. That's a huge damage reduction to lose. Or am I thinking of this wrong?

Kazeyonoma
04-28-2011, 01:57 PM
that's true vibrancy and a legitimate concern, but I think the Lambs buff stays on long enough for 3 MS's, which shouldn't be that high of a chance of actually happening.

marklar
04-28-2011, 05:35 PM
Exactly how does OP stack up against MS though? I say this because OP costs 1/4th the rage of MS, and crits 50% more often... yes MS does more damage per hit, and its crits enrage you which is neat, but you'd need to miss 3x MS's in a row to really hurt, from the absence of lambs to the slaughter and rend refreshing... and CS is great but the odds of proc'ing an extra use is 6% per attack (which it is impossible to take full advantage of due to limitations of human reaction times, tactical requirements of fights, buff-clipping, wasted procs and GCD management issues), whereas the odds of any given CS being dodged is likely much lower; 6.25% at most... intersecting probabilities are multiplicative so the odds of that happening are pretty minuscule to say the least.

You would also have to look at the damage breakdown to determine the number of attacks of each type over the course of a fight, and take into consideration what percentage of attacks it was beneficial to trade an OP for, ie. white attacks. I figure these attacks are going to outweigh MS and CS significantly by proportion.


you have the right idea, and OP is certainly a great attack. but when you miss, you have to account for the loss of an entire 1.5s GCD, and having an extra OP is probably not going to cover that entirely. however, it's close enough that i now sacrifice some expertise for more crit.

in addition to missing a damaging attack, misses have other bad effects: missing CS also means missing 6s of ~30% more damage, missing MS also means missing BT procs, enrage procs, etc.

Muffin Man
04-28-2011, 08:57 PM
I don't like to use Deadly Calm during the Execute phase because Execute still uses rage during Deadly Calm. So the only thing you could do is use it for MS and HS.

That's exactly why I use Deadly Calm during Execute. You'll end up capping out on rage about 5 seconds into DC, so you 'waste' some of that effect.

Execute phase is also when your rage usage is going to spike, assuming you're doing MS - Execute - Execute. With I think the ideal being 20+ rage Executes only (if 10 rage, you are better off using OP and 15 rage, you are better off doing Slam... I think...).

Beefius
04-29-2011, 09:51 AM
I tried arms in PvE talented & glyphed for improved slam... I wasnt majorly impressed.

Using slam in place of heroic strike was a clear DPS loss... I assume its because those frequent 0.5 casts interfere with my ability to make other instant attacks and possibly delay my melee swing timer. Slam did become my highest damage attack however. I tried to incorporate slams into a rotation that involved heroic strike too, but with incite no longer talented they were underwhelming and barely worth doing... net effect, less DPS than when I wasnt slamming at all, and I dont like the added complexity of a rotation involving 4 interchangeable attacks of varying priority depending on procs, available rage & GCD.

Not sure what Im doing wrong, since slamming seems to be the way most folks tell me I should go.

shiz98
04-29-2011, 11:45 AM
Slam did become my highest damage attack however.
This shouldn't be the case; you were probably using it too much. Try holding back on it a little and see what happens.

marklar
04-29-2011, 03:24 PM
With I think the ideal being 20+ rage Executes only
you mean 30+ :)


Using slam in place of heroic strike was a clear DPS loss.
how, exactly? looking at a recent log, they are not even close:
slam = 20k average @ ~18 rage (with swing penalty)
HS = 15k average (with 2/3 incite) @ 30 rage

the 0.5 cast time has nothing to do with other instants because it's < GCD. interesting enough, slam did hit #1 on my damage list this past week - i assume because of not having to waste GCD on rend anymore. it ended up being my best parse to date, so i guess it's not terrible if that happens.


I dont like the added complexity of a rotation involving 4 interchangeable attacks of varying priority depending on procs, available rage & GCD
arms may not be the spec for you...

Beefius
04-29-2011, 06:12 PM
arms may not be the spec for you...

Whoa whoa whoa... elitist much?

Have you got any constructive advice or are you gonna be just another one of these arms warriors who makes claims to 'secret knowledge' or 'unique talent'?

What am I doing wrong? How frequently should I use slam, and how do I prioritise it? How do I most effectively capitalise on 'burst dps' phases like bloodlust / -%20 hp? should I talent for improved slams AND incite? how frequently should I use HS? How does Fury rate against Arms in specific fights, can you provide several examples?

This is the kind of information that will be useful to myself or anyone else trying to break into PvE arms, and do far more to convince me you know WTF you are talking about than dismissive comments like the one I quoted.

Mazar
04-29-2011, 08:00 PM
Not sure why, but in ZA and ZG i'm getting like 18-20k dps when pre-4.1 I got like 15-17k. Someone has noticed that too?

Edit: Just a quick test in the dummy. I have raid later, so I'll study this a little more.
2817

marklar
04-30-2011, 03:40 AM
Whoa whoa whoa... elitist much?

Have you got any constructive advice or are you gonna be just another one of these arms warriors who makes claims to 'secret knowledge' or 'unique talent'?

What am I doing wrong? How frequently should I use slam, and how do I prioritise it? How do I most effectively capitalise on 'burst dps' phases like bloodlust / -%20 hp? should I talent for improved slams AND incite? how frequently should I use HS? How does Fury rate against Arms in specific fights, can you provide several examples?

This is the kind of information that will be useful to myself or anyone else trying to break into PvE arms, and do far more to convince me you know WTF you are talking about than dismissive comments like the one I quoted.

sorry if that came off elitist - it was not my intent. but you just described the arms playstyle to a "T" and then said "I don't like it". me saying arms might not be for you was just saying that it doesn't sound like you like the playstyle - nothing more.

i have no secret knowledge, but arms is a spec where to have to adapt to the situation as it happens - less and less so as blizz changes it, but still more so than fury.

slam is basically your filler ability when nothing else of higher priority is available. you most certainly want to talent and glyph it.
higher priorities are:
MS is kept on cooldown.
CS is used ONLY if the buff is not up.
OP is used right away if you're not expertise capped. if you are capped, you have 5 seconds to use it after a TfB proc, so you can sometimes sneak a slam in there.

HS does not interact with your normal rotation. use it for BT procs and when you have 70+ rage. it doesn't get used a whole lot, but now that we don't need B&T, you should have points available to put into incite.

execute phase is the time to blow recklessness/golemblood pot/trinket/deadly calm and stack executioner to 5. then keep using MS and CS as before, but use execute as your filler. OP may be worth using as well, especially if you're having trouble getting all of your executes off with 30+ rage.

there's not much you can do during heroism expect pop trinkets and watch your rage bar to take advantage of more HS opportunities.

bladestorm can be ridiculously OP on fights with adds like maloriak or halfus or possibly magmaw. on single target fights, i find equally skilled fury/arms warriors to be pretty close in dps. i don't have any experience in 372 gear, so i don't really know how they compare at that gear level.

i don't know what you're doing wrong unless you link a log to look at.

truculent
04-30-2011, 04:59 AM
Hey guys,

Can someone Please update the orgional post? I see a lot of discussion going on but from an outsider looking in, Its just a mountian of a thread to read for basic answers to simple questions.

Kazeyonoma
04-30-2011, 02:06 PM
shiz is already working on it.

Beefius
04-30-2011, 09:17 PM
Thanks marklar, your follow-up was much more informative.

Ive been practising on dummies and I spent about 6 hours tweaking and configuring PowerAuras yesterday in order to make prioritising attacks easier...

So far I havent extensively tested a rotation involving slam, just because its the least of my problems so far; like you said its a filler attack, it doesn't proc or refresh or have any complex interactions with other abilities so I was leaving it until last to deal with.

Using a zero-slam spec & rotation, I was able to pull 15.5-16k on a raid boss dummy, buffed only by battle shout... i figure this will go up to 21-22k in a raid scenario; kings/motw, might, flask, crit aura, food & bloodlust being the significant contributors there.
However, after dissecting several 10-20 milllion dmg dummy logs, i concluded that heroic strike isnt doing all that much for me (despite critting more than 50% of the time, they only did an average of 11k and were not one of my most damaging attacks as was the case in fury), and that I can probably get more mileage out of slam now that I can manage the priorities of my other attacks & procs better.

A big difference Im finding between fury & arms is relatively how little I relied on powerauras for fury... I had it tell me when i got a free slam proc, BT procs & victory rush, that was about it... I just had to stick to a bloodthirst, raging blow, (slam proc) rotation, using HS only if I went over 70 rage or had a period of intense rage generation from raid global damage or bloodlust... pop my 2 min CDs early in the fight then save them and recklessness for the last 20% and spam execute/bloodthirst...

Arms by contrast, I need to be told when I can OP, when I can CS & when I should wait to CS, I have to be fully aware of whether rend has fallen off a target, I have to stance-dance to take advantage of recklessness for execute phase, and I still need to know about BT procs... its very daunting but I am slowly getting there.

I have a further question about dealing with a boss @ sub-%20 HP : I should definitely jump into berserker stance to pop recklessness, but should I stay in that stance to execute/MS/CS, or jump back into battle stance to be able to do OP procs as well? is an extra 5% dmg worth missing all those OP procs? I dont have (nor do i like the idea of taking) tactical mastery to be able to swap stances between attacks, so which of the two choices mentioned is the better one? and I take it I wont be slamming at all during this phase, correct?

This is my gear : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/khazgoroth/gl%C3%B6rious/advanced
And spec : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/khazgoroth/gl%C3%B6rious/talent/secondary

Am I doing the best I can with the gear available to me? I also have a PvP axe I could use in place of the akirus; Im wondering if I should because I dont need expertise & mastery seems underwhelming... should I trade 228 mastery for 137 crit? I also plan to grab the stupidly-expensive crit enchant for cloak since maelstroms have dropped in value in 4.1 and Im an enchanter which makes them easier for me to obtain.

I think its also worth noting that I want to remain PvP viable in this spec so my talent choices arent 100% for PvE; Im trying to get the must-haves in both categories, but at the end of the day I MUST remain optimal for PvE.

The only other optimisation I can think of is a race-change to orc; I actually went from orc to BE a month ago just to try something different... arcane torrent seems a better choice for PvP but blood fury + axe specialisation is the clear winner for PvE... honestly I wish the aesthetics didnt matter to me because BE's are very middle-of-the-road in terms of racial bonuses; only better than undead & tauren within the same faction, and sadly a faction change (I would love to play a worgen) is out of the question while Im raiding with my IRL buddies *sigh*.

Kazeyonoma
05-02-2011, 11:06 AM
sub 20% i've been going zerker, popping cd's, and just keeping MS on cd for buff, CS when not up and available, and spamming execute. no rage to do HS or Slam no, so just keep mashing those 3. I don't think using OP is worth it for the rage lost as execute regularly hits for more than even OP crits, when it's firing off at 30+ rage execution.

marklar
05-02-2011, 12:24 PM
sub 20% i've been going zerker, popping cd's, and just keeping MS on cd for buff, CS when not up and available, and spamming execute. no rage to do HS or Slam no, so just keep mashing those 3. I don't think using OP is worth it for the rage lost as execute regularly hits for more than even OP crits, when it's firing off at 30+ rage execution.

i do the same as this with one exception. if i'm under 30 rage, and it's time for execute, i'll use OP instead.

Disruptor
05-05-2011, 04:09 AM
i do the same as this with one exception. if i'm under 30 rage, and it's time for execute, i'll use OP instead.
There is hardly any reason to do this. If you analyze logs you will observe that Execute is our our ability with the highest DPS/DPR(since it is basically without rage cost) and DPET. I see only one opportunity to trade an Execute for OP. If you have 10 rage and swing timer<1,0sec you could use an OP for DW munching. This could lead to DPS loss tho because lowering your rage to 5 will decrease your rage after your swing and take 5 rage from your next execute and in worst case the ability to CS -> exe or MS -> exe or CS-> MS -> exe. So basically it would always result in a DPS loss to use OP.

Deathwish238
05-09-2011, 06:58 PM
Thanks marklar, your follow-up was much more informative.

Ive been practising on dummies and I spent about 6 hours tweaking and configuring PowerAuras yesterday in order to make prioritising attacks easier...

So far I havent extensively tested a rotation involving slam, just because its the least of my problems so far; like you said its a filler attack, it doesn't proc or refresh or have any complex interactions with other abilities so I was leaving it until last to deal with.

Using a zero-slam spec & rotation, I was able to pull 15.5-16k on a raid boss dummy, buffed only by battle shout... i figure this will go up to 21-22k in a raid scenario; kings/motw, might, flask, crit aura, food & bloodlust being the significant contributors there.
However, after dissecting several 10-20 milllion dmg dummy logs, i concluded that heroic strike isnt doing all that much for me (despite critting more than 50% of the time, they only did an average of 11k and were not one of my most damaging attacks as was the case in fury), and that I can probably get more mileage out of slam now that I can manage the priorities of my other attacks & procs better.

A big difference Im finding between fury & arms is relatively how little I relied on powerauras for fury... I had it tell me when i got a free slam proc, BT procs & victory rush, that was about it... I just had to stick to a bloodthirst, raging blow, (slam proc) rotation, using HS only if I went over 70 rage or had a period of intense rage generation from raid global damage or bloodlust... pop my 2 min CDs early in the fight then save them and recklessness for the last 20% and spam execute/bloodthirst...

Arms by contrast, I need to be told when I can OP, when I can CS & when I should wait to CS, I have to be fully aware of whether rend has fallen off a target, I have to stance-dance to take advantage of recklessness for execute phase, and I still need to know about BT procs... its very daunting but I am slowly getting there.

I have a further question about dealing with a boss @ sub-%20 HP : I should definitely jump into berserker stance to pop recklessness, but should I stay in that stance to execute/MS/CS, or jump back into battle stance to be able to do OP procs as well? is an extra 5% dmg worth missing all those OP procs? I dont have (nor do i like the idea of taking) tactical mastery to be able to swap stances between attacks, so which of the two choices mentioned is the better one? and I take it I wont be slamming at all during this phase, correct?

This is my gear : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/khazgoroth/gl%C3%B6rious/advanced
And spec : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/khazgoroth/gl%C3%B6rious/talent/secondary

Am I doing the best I can with the gear available to me? I also have a PvP axe I could use in place of the akirus; Im wondering if I should because I dont need expertise & mastery seems underwhelming... should I trade 228 mastery for 137 crit? I also plan to grab the stupidly-expensive crit enchant for cloak since maelstroms have dropped in value in 4.1 and Im an enchanter which makes them easier for me to obtain.

I think its also worth noting that I want to remain PvP viable in this spec so my talent choices arent 100% for PvE; Im trying to get the must-haves in both categories, but at the end of the day I MUST remain optimal for PvE.

The only other optimisation I can think of is a race-change to orc; I actually went from orc to BE a month ago just to try something different... arcane torrent seems a better choice for PvP but blood fury + axe specialisation is the clear winner for PvE... honestly I wish the aesthetics didnt matter to me because BE's are very middle-of-the-road in terms of racial bonuses; only better than undead & tauren within the same faction, and sadly a faction change (I would love to play a worgen) is out of the question while Im raiding with my IRL buddies *sigh*.

My rotation more or less ends up like the following assuming there's no lucky string of procs:
CS -> MS -> OP -> Slam

But you're right, you have to keep track of more things. However, Fury gets mind numbingly boring because it's so easy. It doesn't really vary much from CS -> BT -> Slam/Raging Blow + HS for rage dump.

Arms has random things happen(like double OP procs or a nice chain of Sudden Death procs) that if you take quick advantage of will up your DPS.

Definitely go to Berserker for the Execute phase.

About HS, I lay off the HS unless CS/DC is up or I really have too much rage(say from inc dmg). Fury uses HS a lot more than Arms does.

marklar
05-10-2011, 01:20 PM
There is hardly any reason to do this. If you analyze logs you will observe that Execute is our our ability with the highest DPS/DPR(since it is basically without rage cost) and DPET. I see only one opportunity to trade an Execute for OP. If you have 10 rage and swing timer<1,0sec you could use an OP for DW munching. This could lead to DPS loss tho because lowering your rage to 5 will decrease your rage after your swing and take 5 rage from your next execute and in worst case the ability to CS -> exe or MS -> exe or CS-> MS -> exe. So basically it would always result in a DPS loss to use OP.

execute is highest dps for me primarily because i use it with 30+ rage. last time i checked, OP was better dps (including the GCD difference) than smaller executes. i will admit i haven't looked lately. is that not the case?

and isn't execute only free at 10 rage? anything over that uses up to 20 rage.

Kazeyonoma
05-10-2011, 02:03 PM
correct marklar, but I haven't compared the dps of OP or execute either but since OP is supposedly not going to be 1.0 second gcd anymore, i think it starts to fall behind execute then as well.

Pruke
05-11-2011, 06:34 AM
I just wanted to clear up the priority system for arms, as I am usually a tank. As I have gathered a decent set of DPS gear from heroics/ZA/ZG/BH I figure I would DPS some.

From what I gathered the system is:

Keep Rend and CS on the target, MS > OP > Slam > Heroic Strike (if above 70 rage)

20% change to berserker stance > Recklessness > MS/Execute at 30 rage

Hit to 8% > Strength > Crit > Mastery > Expertise/Haste reforging all haste to a stat that is better.

Tengenstein
05-11-2011, 07:36 AM
If at all possible, pop Deadly Calm at the same time as Recklessness; Execute will still eat 20 rage despite DC, but it does mean your MS and CS won't consume rage and thus you should have more rage for bigger executes with a boosted crit chance, also keep HS on CD while DC is up,

Kazeyonoma
05-11-2011, 10:55 AM
@Pruke

also while in zerker maintain CS as best as you can as well.

If you are NOT expertise dodge capped (which depending on how you feel about gearing may vary, i'm not capped and my dps has gone up) you want to prioritize OP over MS even because there's a chance of letting an OP overlap with a dodge/taste for blood proc which is bad. as long as your lambs buff isn't about to drop off, MS can shift to behind OP in a non-expertise capped scenario.

and yes your stat priority is pretty much correct.

Pruke
05-11-2011, 11:03 AM
Thank you for the information. I am now going to look at dodge/taste for blood proc and see what overlapping them means exactly since I have no clue. Same for lambs buff, because again I have no idea what that is. Ive only spec'd arms and ran 1 instance so far, though I was doing 12-15k on the bosses in ZA, which felt to me I was doing decent, but not great and I would rather know all I need to know and not just be average. My gear ilvl for dps is about 350 tops at the moment.

Kazeyonoma
05-11-2011, 11:07 AM
basically without being expertise capped, means you might get overpower light ups because one of your attacks got dodged. you need to make up for this slight dps loss, by immediately overpowering (dps gain overall). The problem comes when this happens, you have overpower lit up ready to go, and if you don't prioritize it, taste for blood (talent that allows your rend ticks to allow overpower usage 100% of the time, ever 6 seconds) might go off, and since overpower was already lit up, you lose out on being able to fire off 2 overpowers.

the Lambs thing is another talent that mortal striking your mob increases your skills damage by 10/20/30% (stacking 3 times) and is crucial to maintaining high DPS as arms, so what I was saying is that if your Lambs to the Slaughter buff, is about to fall off (less than 3 seconds or whatever) then it's probably better to go ahead and MS instead of OP'ing to make sure this 30% buff stays up instead of letting it fall off and then having to restack the charge back up to 3.

That's all I was saying =]

marklar
05-11-2011, 12:11 PM
correct marklar, but I haven't compared the dps of OP or execute either but since OP is supposedly not going to be 1.0 second gcd anymore, i think it starts to fall behind execute then as well.

fer sure, if this goes live with no compensation OP falls way behind executes.
this is a really nasty OP nerf - looking at my latest logs, a 1.5s OP would result in about a 5% OVERALL dps loss. it's still early in PTR, so i'm sure blizzard would not have overlooked this and has something for us to make up for it... right?

Pruke
05-11-2011, 01:13 PM
@Kazey, thank you very much for the explaination it makes sence now.

shiz98
06-22-2011, 04:16 PM
Updated for 4.2 :)

I need to go into more detail regarding expertise capping and rotation priorities. Hopefully that'll happen before too long...

Kahmal
06-24-2011, 01:24 AM
you said spam Slam during Deadly Calm...does that mean use it more often or disregard Overpower and Mortal Strike (only to keep buff up) and just swing away with slam?

shiz98
06-26-2011, 12:01 PM
That's... actually a great question. My intent was to convey that you should do your regular rotation, but just make sure to use Slam in all the gaps. However, it may very well be a DPS increase to just Slam and use MS to maintain Lambs/Rend -- I'll need to look into this. Never occurred to me...

marklar
06-27-2011, 01:04 AM
That's... actually a great question. My intent was to convey that you should do your regular rotation, but just make sure to use Slam in all the gaps. However, it may very well be a DPS increase to just Slam and use MS to maintain Lambs/Rend -- I'll need to look into this. Never occurred to me...

since slam is actually cheaper in rage than MS, deadly calm would not change their priority relationship. slam and MS are really close in damage, and given the other contributions of MS, i doubt we'd be replacing MS with slam.

OP is a different question. with the change in GCD, it loses so much value. it's primary contributions now are low rage cost (irrelevant during DC) and high crit chance. without doing any math, my guess is it's close enough in damage to keep using over slam for the DW procs. i'm not 100% sure about that one though.

shiz98
06-27-2011, 01:02 PM
So how's this: let's assume you only use DC right after a MS. This removes the need to worry about Rend/Lambs entirely, which removes the bonus from MS. Instead, the only thing we care about while DC is up is damage per GCD.

Pulling numbers DrDamage, unbuffed, in my kind of crappy DPS gear gives the following:
Slam: 13152 damage
MS: 13841 damage
OP: 16704 damage

These numbers shouldn't be taken too seriously as I didn't vet them myself, but it still looks like the rotation should stay the same from a damage per gcd perspective. Keep in mind that OP is also going to get better and better the less expertise you have.

Kazeyonoma
06-27-2011, 02:17 PM
it just means queuing up HS's while you do your rotation without any care as far as I've been concerned. It also means feeling safe about slamming when DC comes out at least for a short while. Is this the same scenario we're drawing from this?

marklar
06-28-2011, 01:40 PM
So how's this: let's assume you only use DC right after a MS. This removes the need to worry about Rend/Lambs entirely, which removes the bonus from MS. Instead, the only thing we care about while DC is up is damage per GCD.

Pulling numbers DrDamage, unbuffed, in my kind of crappy DPS gear gives the following:
Slam: 13152 damage
MS: 13841 damage
OP: 16704 damage

These numbers shouldn't be taken too seriously as I didn't vet them myself, but it still looks like the rotation should stay the same from a damage per gcd perspective. Keep in mind that OP is also going to get better and better the less expertise you have.

there's something strange about your OP being so much higher than your other attacks. here's my numbers from a recent raid night:
slam: 21771
MS: 23310
OP: 23587

i agree with your conclusion that we just keep the rotation the same, although as kaz mentioned, adding HS. i always save one use of DC for execute phase, and then try to line up the other one with at least CS, if not other cooldowns.

Kahmal
07-01-2011, 12:40 AM
My question about stance dancing is it really worth it? It seems like it will nearly remove Heroic Strike outside of DC, and while Heroic Strike is a lousy ability does the extra 5% dmg off your other abilities make up for it?

Yves
07-01-2011, 06:53 PM
How much better is Arms compared to Fury DPS now?
Is it a huge difference AOE/ST, or is it more a personal preference?

shiz98
07-03-2011, 03:40 PM
My question about stance dancing is it really worth it? It seems like it will nearly remove Heroic Strike outside of DC, and while Heroic Strike is a lousy ability does the extra 5% dmg off your other abilities make up for it?
If you don't have Tactical Mastery, stance dancing is a bit more difficult to pull off decently, but Heroic Strike probably isn't a huge concern (though it does depend on the fight). You shouldn't have enough haste to make HS usable from anything but raid damage (which, ideally, you'll avoid anyway :)).


How much better is Arms compared to Fury DPS now?
Well, if you're going by http://stateofdps.com or SimulationCraft T12 Heroic (http://www.simulationcraft.org/420/Raid_T12H.html), Fury's ahead. I'd wager that the difference is smaller with more realistic gear at this point.

Really though, it's best to stick to what you like. You're probably going to do better on a spec you enjoy more, which in all likelyhood will make up for any potential difference that may exist between the specs.

marklar
07-05-2011, 01:55 PM
My question about stance dancing is it really worth it? It seems like it will nearly remove Heroic Strike outside of DC, and while Heroic Strike is a lousy ability does the extra 5% dmg off your other abilities make up for it?

you should stance dance if you want to maximize your dps. in order to pull it off, you do need to take 2/2 TM and treat your rage as effectively being capped at 75. anything over that should immediately be reduced by HS use.

Deathwish238
07-05-2011, 02:20 PM
Arms vs Fury...

They're both a lot of fun. Fury is really consistent, really easy to play imo. CS > BT > RB > SL. You do have to think sometimes still, like what to use when Bloodsurge didn't proc and you have the best mobility in the game. That makes for a lot of fun. I personally like having to offtank when I see a bunch of mobs heading right for the squishies lol.

Arms has fewer hits but they hit so much harder. With MS on a much longer CD than BT, you end up using more moves between each MS. This makes Arms a little more complex as you have to choose which of the two to use, twice between each MS. For simplicity it ends up with, CS > MS > OP > SL. Really the same priority, just different CD on the main spec's move. Throwdown and Bladestorm are both great, utility and AoE that I do miss when I'm Fury.


Warriors are in a great state right now I feel. We're top melee DPS atm according to stateofdps.

Tengenstein
12-01-2011, 05:54 AM
Anyone else notice they changed GoCS, it now puts Sunder up, not merely refresh it, rather a nice change.

Thegreatme
12-01-2011, 07:06 AM
Anyone else notice they changed GoCS, it now puts Sunder up, not merely refresh it, rather a nice change.
It was like that on the PTR too, and it is definitely nice, though if you are the only one able to provide the armor debuff, it's still better to sunder twice then CS.

Kazeyonoma
12-01-2011, 12:22 PM
I'm just glad they left it in there to refresh/stack, really helps smooth out the Arms rotation... sad that I went fury though =(

PimpJuice4
12-02-2011, 06:07 PM
speaking of arms


anyone know how good arms is doing in dragon soul? i mean,i dont personally plan on doing actual dragon soul but after doing the raid finder today no doubt im probably gonna be queueing up for it with the raid finder(especially since you cant get tier without doing the raid and warrior tier looks to badass to not get)

i know according to simcraft there like bottom on dps,but from what ive heard simcraft isnt really that accurate

Tengenstein
12-02-2011, 06:25 PM
Simcrafts accurate, it just that not many fights have you just sitting their beating on the boss for the entire fight.... except for Zon'ozz, ok and Morchok, and Yohrsahj, and Ultraxion. Arms is fine for LFR, i did one last night with a Shaman from my guild, was second on DPS with ~30k on most fights, the shaman was up 42k, but he's a main spec DPS. Arms is more than capable of beating the minimum DPS requirements. Sweeping strikes works well on the mana void on Sahj, and his adds are ideal for balde storm.

PimpJuice4
12-02-2011, 06:35 PM
although it does say heroic,and looking for raid is normal so maybe arms is alot better on normal then heroic

Rowdy
12-03-2011, 09:54 AM
Arms is absolutely competetive with Fury right now. You just need to play well enough, no problem.

PimpJuice4
12-03-2011, 02:00 PM
Simcrafts accurate, it just that not many fights have you just sitting their beating on the boss for the entire fight.... except for Zon'ozz, ok and Morchok, and Yohrsahj, and Ultraxion. Arms is fine for LFR, i did one last night with a Shaman from my guild, was second on DPS with ~30k on most fights, the shaman was up 42k, but he's a main spec DPS. Arms is more than capable of beating the minimum DPS requirements. Sweeping strikes works well on the mana void on Sahj, and his adds are ideal for balde storm.

ya,i guess maybe they updated simcraft recently because now it shows arms and fury 2h not really that far apart as far as dps goes

like it shows fury 2h 34952 and arms as 34936 so i guess maybe it wasnt updated at the time i looked at it.ya i think it got updated cuz now it shows arms as last but i dont know,ive heard people say that arms is currently better then fury because somethin happened to deep wounds and it screwed fury i guess.although now that i think about it,with what i know about arms wouldnt the 4 set tier bonus be better for arms anyway

eather way,ive played fury before and i generally perfer arms anyway.it just seems like arms is currently in pretty bad shape,but meh.i guess maybe ill just have to wait and see what arms is lookin like in raid finder cuz im only ilvl 351(and thats with pvp gear,i have like no pve gear that isnt greens lol)

Kahmal
12-04-2011, 12:16 AM
im trying to understand how this happened, was Fury nerfed that hard? Or was there an Arms buff?

I love Arms but it always scaled worse as gear got better, I mean Mastery is a lame stat for Arms, Haste is even worse, and we cant get nearly as much Heroic Strikes off.

Tengenstein
12-04-2011, 06:23 AM
well they removed Fury's passive 5% physical damage buff from Dual wield specialization, and they also removed a bug where it turns out that Fury has been getting 40% bigger Deep Wounds via their passive skill Precision since 4.1. Apparently at present theirs another bug so Deep Wounds can't proc of Raging Blow.

So compared to last monday, fury has lost 5% of its damage and >40% its deep wounds damage.

Kahmal
12-04-2011, 09:21 AM
According to some sources though Warriors are pretty close to the bottom on DPS, this true?

PimpJuice4
12-04-2011, 09:30 AM
if there was a arms buff,apparently they must of not buffed it enough from what ive looked up


but meh,to be honest.if im topping meters in raid finder thats all im gonna care about.my warriors just a alt and ive played both fury and arms and enjoy arms alot better

i know they got buffed in pvp though

Kahmal
12-04-2011, 11:09 AM
All they did was make Mortal Strike 10% healing debuff up from 5%. Which would be nice, if they didnt do the same thing to Aimed Shot and Wound Poison, so Warriors are still pretty inferior imo.

Rowdy
12-04-2011, 12:14 PM
According to some sources though Warriors are pretty close to the bottom on DPS, this true?At least in simulations. Its a lot harder to outplay the other DPS right now. I used to be able to top meters even when Warriors weren´t top-notch, but its nearly impossible now due to being behind several thousand DPS in terms of potential. Only Shadowpriests are as "bad" as Warriors atm, all othe classes have at least one spec that is at least 2.000 DPS better in theory.

Right now Warriors are behind more than 10% behind the top classes/specs, which is too much to still call it okay, imo. 3-5% is acceptable I think.

PimpJuice4
12-04-2011, 12:22 PM
meh

i guess to me personally,if i can top meters as a arms warrior in raid finder.thats all i care about pve wise

Kahmal
12-04-2011, 12:58 PM
meh

i guess to me personally,if i can top meters as a arms warrior in raid finder.thats all i care about pve wise

yea but atm I see no reason for both specs to be underperforming in PvE when there already outclassed in PvP

Muffin Man
12-05-2011, 12:14 AM
All they did was make Mortal Strike 10% healing debuff up from 5%. Which would be nice, if they didnt do the same thing to Aimed Shot and Wound Poison, so Warriors are still pretty inferior imo.

It's actually 25% from 10% which is pretty significant, and it was a general physical damager buff, since the Mage/Priest healing debuff is still 10%.

I thought Lore mentioned there were some general melee buffs in this patch, but I didn't see anything in the patch notes.

As an aside, I think this is the biggest mistake they made in Cata - making melee so bad in PVE (even in LK there were already fights where melee was just useless - Saurfang, H Mimiron, ect). I just can't get over how badly they threw off the melee-range balance. And they know it, it was even the justification for nerfing warriors... all melee should suck equally compared to ranged (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2956383).

I don't know about PvP and this is a PvE/DPS thread anyways. I guess this entire post is kind OT anyways...

marklar
12-07-2011, 02:48 PM
all three warrior dps specs are at or near the bottom of simulations, in both T12H gear and T13H gear (worse in T13H). the difference between warriors and mages (simulations, of course) is something like 12-14k.

the top eight sims all come from mages/locks/rogues; flex classes can gtfo this tier. arms & fury seem to suck about the same.

Kazeyonoma
12-07-2011, 03:36 PM
that's friggen depressing -_-'

PimpJuice4
12-07-2011, 06:10 PM
in both T12H gear and T13H gear (worse in T13H).

thats wierd,shouldnt they be doing better in T13H gear considering how they scale with gear.but i guess if they both suck equally ill just stay arms cuz i like arms better then fury

PimpJuice4
12-08-2011, 09:29 AM
actually i tried out fury tg yesterday and i dont know.it just seems like i enjoy playing arms better then fury so eather way i think im gonna stay arms

and speaking of arms.rotation wise do you really use rend before colossus smash.because ive always used colossus smash first and then started my rotation

Tengenstein
12-09-2011, 12:04 AM
Colossus Smash removes 100% armour for 6 seconds. Bleeds naturally bypass armour anyway. so you're not going to gain extra damage from rend if you use it while CS is up. Since you generally have only time for 3 GCDs inside a CS its best to make sure all the GCDs are spent on abilities that are affected by armour, and thus benefit from CS removing the armour.

PimpJuice4
12-09-2011, 10:59 AM
so basically,id be doing the same damage with rend if i used it with collosus smash not up then i would if id use it when collosus smash is up

cuz until yesterday ive always just used colossus smash first in my rotation.like id normally go Colossus smash,rend,mortal strike,overpower when taste for blood proc'd and then just mortal strike whenever i could and overpower whenever taste for blood proc'd.i save bladestorm for trash or add phases

i know slam probably should be used,but theres no talent for arms that makes it instant and i hate the fact it feels like it takes forever to cast so i decided to just not use it.i still seem to pull pretty good dps in 5 man heroics though,dont know about actual raids cuz my server sucks for pugs and im not high enough item lvl yet for raid finder

Baba
12-09-2011, 12:43 PM
Rend first, always. The debuff will be up, can get overpower procs, and it wont waste a cooldown during colossal smash.

JollyWarrior
12-09-2011, 01:23 PM
i know slam probably should be used,but theres no talent for arms that makes it instant and i hate the fact it feels like it takes forever to cast so i decided to just not use

slam should be a .5 sec cast as arms. I dot recall if it's talent or glyph but it should be .5 sec and should be used when MS, OP, and CS Are on CD and not enough rage for HS. As arms you shouldnt have any open GCDs. Any you might have free are filled with Slam.

PimpJuice4
12-09-2011, 01:31 PM
ya i just checked,maybe that was back when i used my pvp spec as my pve spec and had a prot spec that i didnt like the whole slam thing.cuz my pvp spec doesnt have improved slam but my pve spec does so i might try switchin up my rotation tonight and tryin slam and seein if i like it better now

unless its cuz my haste or whatever is low i thought i heard haste or somethin effects the swing time or whatever of it.i have like 3 percent haste


(http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/sisters-of-elune/Mudkipzz/simple)

JollyWarrior
12-09-2011, 03:13 PM
unless its cuz my haste or whatever is low i thought i heard haste or somethin effects the swing time or whatever of it.i have like 3 percent haste


(http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/sisters-of-elune/Mudkipzz/simple)

Haste is a pretty low priority for Arms bc of swing time (not 100% on the reason but that's my best guess. Either way, it's low priority so no worries about low haste)

Str -> hit -> exp -> crit -> mast -> haste is the formula I've been following with gearing

shiz98
12-12-2011, 12:24 PM
Just did a small update, mostly fixing typos a few other misc. tweaks, along with the new Glyph of Colossus Smash mechanics. Probably the last update for the expac!

Kazeyonoma
12-12-2011, 03:07 PM
sick ty sir

marklar
12-14-2011, 02:15 PM
nice update. of course, i must have some comments :)

for optional talents, you didn't mention incite. my two normal builds are either 1/3 incite + 2/2 B&T or 3/3 incite w/o B&T.

for stats, i've found mastery to be very underwhelming. crit is the boss for sure. i would put expertise > mastery >= haste as the last three in your list.

thanks for keeping this updated, i think arms is very comparable to fury right now.

armeen
12-29-2011, 09:48 AM
iono about you guys, but im arms dps for DS, and i have not been beaten in dps by any fury warrior. I'm top dps in my raid and Most of the LFR, where im rarely beaten by a mage. Ilvl 383/gear score of 101xx....Im actually scared of replacing any of my gear because of my current high dps...lol..Only dps number i can remember is LFR warlord Zon fight i avg 50k dps
Armeen-Alexstrasza

truculent
01-10-2012, 02:59 PM
dono if this has been covered, but does anyone know if the 4pc set bonus also refreshes sunder armor? or am I just grasping for straws with this word "effect" ?

Ragebark
01-10-2012, 04:05 PM
It does not refresh the sunder effect.

Kazeyonoma
01-10-2012, 04:36 PM
but as arms, CS will refresh it for you anyways with the glyph... soooo it shouldn't be a problem right? :P

truculent
01-10-2012, 05:00 PM
but as arms, CS will refresh it for you anyways with the glyph... soooo it shouldn't be a problem right? :P

well the reason I asked was if infact the the set bonus DID refresh the buff, then do you drop cs from the arms rotation. However, I was clearly dreaming from the start. heh.

Kazeyonoma
01-10-2012, 05:50 PM
Hrm, even at 13% chance, only coming off of your Mortal Strike, I don't think you can clearly remove CS from your rotation since it is such a huge damage boost to your other abilities.

truculent
01-10-2012, 06:50 PM
390 Gurthalak or 397 Ataraxis ?


I have both http://us.battle.net/wow/en/item/78487


and http://us.battle.net/wow/en/item/77224

I made my way over to the test dummies, and im seeing about 4-5k loss using voice over ataraxis according to recount.

I went into config, and it appears recount is registering the proc.... kinda? it dosnt show up in my abilities, but if I sperate pets, it then shows the damage. the avg appears to include the proc regardless, but in any event..... my dps seems a good 4-5k lower.


thoughts?

I even tried out fury with voice in the main hand and found the same result.

marklar
01-11-2012, 02:37 PM
390 Gurthalak or 397 Ataraxis ?


I have both http://us.battle.net/wow/en/item/78487


and http://us.battle.net/wow/en/item/77224

I made my way over to the test dummies, and im seeing about 4-5k loss using voice over ataraxis according to recount.

I went into config, and it appears recount is registering the proc.... kinda? it dosnt show up in my abilities, but if I sperate pets, it then shows the damage. the avg appears to include the proc regardless, but in any event..... my dps seems a good 4-5k lower.


thoughts?

I even tried out fury with voice in the main hand and found the same result.

i tried both in back to back weekly raids. one sample of each is not exactly scientific, but on ultraxion i did quite a bit more with the 397 (and i did stand close enough for the tentacle to reach).

390 sword: 37k
397 axe: 39.5k

truculent
01-11-2012, 02:54 PM
i tried both in back to back weekly raids. one sample of each is not exactly scientific, but on ultraxion i did quite a bit more with the 397 (and i did stand close enough for the tentacle to reach).

390 sword: 37k
397 axe: 39.5k

Im basically seeing similar results to what you discribing. I might use the 390 for fights that require high aoe damage, but I really havent seen the 390 top the 397 in any way shape or form yet.

petska
04-26-2012, 01:47 AM
Hey guys.
Ive tried to run simcraft for arms and it confused me. The difference between my warrior(395ilvl) and BiS warrior is like 6-7k DPS. Is it just broken or am i missing something?

Tengenstein
04-26-2012, 03:13 AM
Could you give a little more info about what you did?

petska
04-26-2012, 04:38 AM
yeah i can ,i was just wondering if simcraft is working properly for arms ? If yes i will look into it a bit more and give you some info.

I just ran my char and it told me that i should be doing alot more dps than im doing now , but the diff is like at least 10k, maybe i am bad but idk
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/deathguard/Пецка/simple armory

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-cvzydhh0c9dbds66/analyze/dd/source/?s=5648&e=5864 idk if you can change the language , cuz its ru :\
simcraft suggests that i should be doing around 47k

im sure im doing something wrong and the rotation isnt ideal but 10k seems a lot of dps lost

Tengenstein
04-26-2012, 05:36 AM
Well Simcraft does the rotation perfectly, with every raid buff and debuff provided. ANd even with those perfect conditions it gives you an average. Look at the DPS Range figure, with the sims of my tank its a whopping 6% variation due to RNG. Try simming with the global options set to whatever is most apllicable to you and only the raid (de)buffs you actually have available, and that the global options match your own and make sure that the rotation simcraft is performing matches your own, if they don't you're gonna get large variations.

marklar
04-26-2012, 12:36 PM
i think it's fairly close. simcraft says i should do 45.7k on a patchwerk fight, given my raid buffs. my average dps on ultraxion H is ~43k, so given the interruptions due to porting out, i'd say that's about right.

Erkebrand
04-26-2012, 12:40 PM
im sure im doing something wrong and the rotation isnt ideal but 10k seems a lot of dps lost

Well just from that log its clear you are not doing your rotation optimal.

The major flaw being that you seem to delay MS. You have less than 9 MS/minute and you should have no less than 11/minute. You can also press in more OP and Slams - so go pratice a bit more on the target dummy to fine-tune the rotation.

Besides that the use of you cooldowns can be improved:
- you only used Blood Fury once and you could have used it twice
- you didnt use any Golem Blood Potion
- your proc Find Weakness proc isnt very well sync'ed with Deadly Calm. Try to pop DC as soon as Find Weakness procs - then they will line up nicely the second time as well. You might also as use Blood Fury at the same time as well since its also on a 2min CD.
- save Recklessness(+Golem Blood Potion) for the Execute-phase

Using CD's properly is a huge part of doing optimal DPS.