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Lore
01-28-2011, 06:29 PM
F3PAgffpAxY

This week:

How do I show pride in my performance when my class is "overpowered"?
Should PVP gear be allowed in raids?
Should I stay with my casual guild, or look elsewhere?
How is Ret looking in 4.0.6?

and (many) more!

Follow me on Twitter (http://www.twitter.com/devolore) or Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/devolore)!

Kev1112005
01-28-2011, 07:16 PM
Quite honestly, I was PST was always this long, maybe even longer. Perhaps you could type out the list of the questions, and add links in the time to each question if people want to skip over ones that they don't need. But, these are extremely informative, and the great knowledge that you share is very helpful.

Rennadrel
01-28-2011, 10:09 PM
4.0.6 for Retribution seems more like a bandage from what I have tested. Talent changes make it more Holy Power starved and it's bad enough without an extreme amount of haste rating. Mastery is still a bandage and not a solution to the problem Retribution has in sustaining DPS over the course of a fight. Point for point, Retribution still will be bottom of the barrel for DPS and mid range on damage overall because it's a burst spec like Frost Death Knights are. Basically, you have to sit on a boss for the whole fight for your numbers to not go down since the bulk of damage is coming in a single burst and there really isn't a constant flow of damage, kind of like how I have observed playing a Frost DK in raids now. Meanwhile other melee specs can swap targets and do what they have to without it hindering their total DPS for the whole fight.

I am becoming more of the opinion now that the whole notion of 'bring the player, not the class' mentality for raiding is completely dead. Basically if you aren't a feral druid, assassination rogue, unholy DK, hunter etc, there is kinda no point to bring specs that are doing vastly inferior damage, despite the fact that it might be pretty unfair to certain raiders. I kinda laugh at people who feel the need to stroke their ego because they are doing insane numbers in contrast to other classes, because eventually they will just get brought down a peg and put on par with other classes which is ironically being done to Feral and Unholy DPS specs.

lyia
01-29-2011, 07:02 AM
im having trouble with my prot paladin in heroics its always hard to keep me up for the healers do u hav any suggestions?also ima put my link to my pally and can u tell me some stuff i need to change?http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/gorefiend/lyia/advanced

Uranos7
01-29-2011, 07:27 AM
TY Lore:D for answering the Stam> everything question I am not only a tank, but healer as well, and I have been banging my head against a brick wall trying to shoot that theory down.

Also agree that this episode was not too long I enjoyed it very much.;)

Knighterrant81
01-29-2011, 07:43 AM
This is coming from a mainspec raiding healer, for the record.

I'll probably catch hell for this, but stamina is still a *really good* stat for tanks. The problem of healer mana is very real, but it is overblown. After a tank death, ask yourself "self, why did I die?" 9 times out of 10 in raids, it is usually because something killed you and your healers still had a lot of mana. I literally cannot remember the last time we had a tank death because a healer ran out of mana (in raids).

Time to live (without healing) matters because healers have ALOT to do out there. They may have to heal the other tank. They may have to dispel something off of you. They may have to move out of fire. It is very helpful to have a large "buffer" on your tank so that you don't have to babysit them all the time.

What I am saying is that now it is ok to have a balance. Whereas in Wrath you were basically doing it wrong if you didn't have a stamina gem in every socket you could, now you want to have a large amount of mastery and perhaps dodge or parry as well (for most tanks). That *doesn't* mean what you should be doing is gemming every socket for mastery, and tossing out every stam trinket that drops.

As a healer, the stamina on a tank still matters. Its just not king anymore. Look at why you are dying. Are you dying because your healers ran out of mana? Are you sure they are geared correctly? Are you sure they are using their spells correctly? (similar to tanks, healers have to get out of the Wrath mentality of Flash Heal spam, and some healers, especially healers you run into in 5 mans haven't figured that out yet, I always wince when I see Flash Heal equivalents show up on my healing recieved list and I'm at 80%+ health) Are your DPS putting out competitive numbers, not dying, and doing any fight mechanics correctly? Are you using your cooldowns and other survivability tools correctly? All of those things are *much, much* more likely to cause healers to oom than fact that the tank gemmed too much stamina.

Stamina is good. Mastery and other avoidance stats are good too, possibly better in a lot of circumstances. Just because stamina isn't the only way to gem now doesn't mean it is terrible and you should never gem it at all.

Usually for us the culprit for a tank death is that we weren't doing a mechanic right, or that the tank/healer should have used a cooldown but didn't. For instance, when we were learning Maloriak we lost the offtank a lot but that is usually because we had too many adds out at once. We also lost our MT on Cho'gall a lot last night, but that was because we weren't CCing the MC'd raiders quick enough.

Uranos7
01-29-2011, 07:57 AM
Knighterrant81 : Your missing the point we were talking about the tanks that put stam in every single gem socket, enchant, and have little or noting else.

If you match your gem slots then you will get enough of everything most of the time and can tweak the rest with reforging.

Knighterrant81
01-29-2011, 08:10 AM
@Uranos7

Yeah, but sometimes people miss that point. I've seen plenty of tanks that stack way too much stamina. I've also seen plenty of tanks who refuse to wear anything but mastery. We have 2 pally tanks at similar item levels. One leans towards stamina (slightly) and one who won't wear anything unless it has mastery on it. The mastery guy is *a lot harder to heal* (although my point from above still stands, that may have as much to do with poor cooldown usage, positioning, or other fight mechanics as much as the fact that he's got about as much health as my full 346 Warrior tanking alt while wearing mostly 359s).

So, when you type "Mastery is good, you should use it" guys like Pally tank #2 read "I should no longer care about stamina at all and only gem mastery". Which is probably not a good idea either.

Necromaniacal
01-29-2011, 08:53 AM
When we're talking about stamina stacking, are we talking like every enchant gem etc etc being stamina?

Comnig from a warrior tank perspective ive not been STACKING stam, but i have been making it a priority while gemming etc while still aiming for set bonuses etc with hybrid based gems (so a blue socket would have 60 stam, while a Yellow slot would have a 30 stam 30(?) mastery gem)

I'm not ignoring avoidance for stamina as a rule of thumb, im just priotitising it, and so far the results have been better, EJ seems to agree with this way of gearing, Warriors mitigate more Damage than we avoid with the massive block stats we achinve through mastery (Curently logged as our best avoidance stat, a misnomer at best)so becuas we're reducing the damage as opposed to flat out avoiding it, doesnt the EH argument stand more true for warriors?

I stacked avoidance before and i was actually getting 2 shotted by some encounters with magic heavy damage.

Draelian
01-29-2011, 01:22 PM
As a healer myself, I would much rather prefer a tank that uses more hybrid gems such as the 30 stam and 20 parry/dodge/mastery because when I go up with tanks that have reforged or gemed stam out the ass then they are actually harder to heal. Just like healers should no longer gem Int, there should be other stats gemmed as well. It seems like in cata for the most part gemming into something that gives two different stats is better by far then just doing a blue gem to give you 60 stam and a yellow for 40 mastery and red for....(idk red tank gems). The tanks that are actually in my guild have done so to gem with hybrid gems and it helps a ton more. Honestly, stacking stam is very dumb since even though you have more hitpoints you get hit harder and thus strains me to heal you up 50k.......when you could have been taking 30k when gemming into other stats.

All in all too much of anything is bad, and so that should be stressed in every class as well, mix it up and see what helps you do your job better

clvsutil
01-29-2011, 02:20 PM
im having trouble with my prot paladin in heroics its always hard to keep me up for the healers do u hav any suggestions?also ima put my link to my pally and can u tell me some stuff i need to change?http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/gorefiend/lyia/advanced

I'm checking your gear and I would suggest you to unreforge your cape, chest, bracer, gloves and one the ring. You are losing mastery rating with those reforging. If you have problems with agroo I think we should try another alternative like changing your talent tree.

Rennadrel
01-29-2011, 03:43 PM
Knighterrant81 : Your missing the point we were talking about the tanks that put stam in every single gem socket, enchant, and have little or noting else.

If you match your gem slots then you will get enough of everything most of the time and can tweak the rest with reforging.

Sacrificing health for avoidance when you are just starting to raid is a bad idea though. Only once your gear starts compensating for the same amount of health contributions to your overall pool, is when you should be gemming for avoidance. Once you start getting raid drops, then you should be looking at gemming to get socket bonuses and gaining some avoidance and parry rating out of it. Also at this point in the game, Mastery is a huge stat for tanking regardless of class, especially Blood tanks where your Mastery grants you damage mitigation which is better then dodge or parry and is effectively the best stat for Blood aside from stamina. I don't think any of the tanks in my guild gemmed for anything other then pure stamina in their heroic dungeon gear. Even in normal modes our tanks are getting hit like trucks as well on some bosses.

Delmonte
01-29-2011, 04:32 PM
Whilst I don't necessarily think it's wrong to try different approaches and I'm going to experiment with my tank gear (currently stacking stam, not convinced it's the best way to do it always either), I think it's pretty blazé to say that 'stam was only the way to go in wrath and now the game has changed and avoidance is the future' or even just 'balancing stam with avoidance is best' when the MT of Paragon has pure stamina in every single slot and chant possible plus double stamina trinkets.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/lightnings-blade/sejta/simple

The MT of method also essentially has stam in every single gem slot and when he has a mixed gem the socket bonus is equivalent or better to a full stamina gem anyway so it is the same hp but now mixed gems are better with the buffed socket bonuses in cataclysm. There are 2 slots where the bonus is only 15 stam and they are the 2 greens that must be taken for the meta anyway. Again, double stam trinkets (IIRC both were using double stam for general progress when they had 359 trinkets too). Both players have taken leatherworking to get the stam bracer enchant.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/xavius/sco/simple

Saying stamina stacking is bad is pretty short sighted when it's what the MTs of the rank 1 and 2 guilds in the world are doing.

I'm aware that other top tanks do different things like stack mastery or balance a little more, I'm not saying this approach is wrong and you could look at bosses individually too and consider different stats on different mechanics. I just don't see why everyone is jumping on the 'stam stacking is bad cos it's Cataclysm' bandwagon when clearly it's pretty effective and how the MTs of 2 of the absolute best guilds in the world chose to deal with the hardest content in the game.

Just to re-iterate, I'm not saying everyone should always stack stam like mad, just y'know, it's not always 'wrong cos it's Cataclysm'. Tanks weren't being insta-gibbed all the time in TBC from either and every tank in a top raid guild had stam crammed into everything they could get it on.

P.S. another great show btw Lore, been some really useful tips on them, thanks for taking the time to make them.

Fetzie
01-29-2011, 04:45 PM
The tanks in top guilds tend to reforge and regem on a fight-to-fight basis, just because they have gear set up in one way does not mean it is always like that.

Delmonte
01-29-2011, 04:52 PM
I don't think they've had different gems for a considerable time now if they even did to begin with and even if they sometimes use different things, the fact that they use it at all is the point. I'm fairly sure they used it on almost every boss but you'd have to ask them. Actually, I could be way off but from what I've seen the tanks in the top guilds really don't regem that often (yes I was very bored when sat in front of my computer studying for my exams). You can't reforge stamina either so that doesn't really come into it.

Tagmonkey
01-29-2011, 05:02 PM
You need to set up a PST iTunes feed. Video and/or Audio. It would be awesome.

Uranos7
01-30-2011, 09:00 AM
Whilst I don't necessarily think it's wrong to try different approaches and I'm going to experiment with my tank gear (currently stacking stam, not convinced it's the best way to do it always either), I think it's pretty blazé to say that 'stam was only the way to go in wrath and now the game has changed and avoidance is the future' or even just 'balancing stam with avoidance is best' when the MT of Paragon has pure stamina in every single slot and chant possible plus double stamina trinkets.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/lightnings-blade/sejta/simple

The MT of method also essentially has stam in every single gem slot and when he has a mixed gem the socket bonus is equivalent or better to a full stamina gem anyway so it is the same hp but now mixed gems are better with the buffed socket bonuses in cataclysm. There are 2 slots where the bonus is only 15 stam and they are the 2 greens that must be taken for the meta anyway. Again, double stam trinkets (IIRC both were using double stam for general progress when they had 359 trinkets too). Both players have taken leatherworking to get the stam bracer enchant.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/xavius/sco/simple

Saying stamina stacking is bad is pretty short sighted when it's what the MTs of the rank 1 and 2 guilds in the world are doing.

I'm aware that other top tanks do different things like stack mastery or balance a little more, I'm not saying this approach is wrong and you could look at bosses individually too and consider different stats on different mechanics. I just don't see why everyone is jumping on the 'stam stacking is bad cos it's Cataclysm' bandwagon when clearly it's pretty effective and how the MTs of 2 of the absolute best guilds in the world chose to deal with the hardest content in the game.

Just to re-iterate, I'm not saying everyone should always stack stam like mad, just y'know, it's not always 'wrong cos it's Cataclysm'. Tanks weren't being insta-gibbed all the time in TBC from either and every tank in a top raid guild had stam crammed into everything they could get it on.

P.S. another great show btw Lore, been some really useful tips on them, thanks for taking the time to make them.

If you look more closely you see the warr. tank already has 50% block, and druid has 50% dodge (in bear form). So yes once you got that they could stack Spirit and it wouldn't make that much diference.:p

The problem is a starting out tank in 333 gear will try to copy their gemming without even looking at mastery or avoidance lvl.

Stam is a good stat for tanks but no longer their 1st concern. = Hit avoidance caps, then stam all you want; that is what these top tanks have done.:cool:

Mordain
01-30-2011, 11:17 AM
The problem with people looking at the "Top tanks" and copying them is that they miss the fact that these guys have incredible gear. The basic stats of the gear gives them all the avoidance they need, so they can freely just start stacking stamina without worry.

At lower levels, especially heroics, you really need to prioritise (for warrior perspective at least since that's my main) - hit/expertise cap > parry > mastery > dodge.

I've done this all through cata and had little to no problems with the content. I think a lot of people's problems are actually stemming from too large pulls and such. Using CC and making LIBERAL use of your cooldowns is the key (my shield block and shield wall are almost always up whenever I make a pull). You have to anticipate incoming damage and not just wait until you're below 50% health before you think "I should really use a coold--- oh I'm dead".

Delmonte
01-30-2011, 11:41 AM
I'm not really sure I'd say that he was at 'the' avoidance cap, there are certain points you can hit with significance with avoidance but what would you classify as the correct amount that covers all situations and mechanics? I also don't think that these players aren't that bothered about their gear and just take any old random stat cos it's not that important to them. Stacking spirit to tank hard modes some of which hit the tank really hard... not sure, that's a new one, I suspect it might make a difference :)

Again, not saying that other things are wrong it seems like a lot of people are modelling their ideas of what the 'best' tanking stats are on a fight where the tank takes nothing but direct physical melee swings from a boss and no other damage i.e. where the avoidance stats are beneficial on all damage taken. You can count the number of fights per x-pac where this happens on one hand and when they arise it is often coupled with the boss mechanic of 'hit the tank really hard really fast' which is when you want stamina as well anyway.

It is quite situational imo but all these stats to reduce direct physical melee swings do not help you survive the spell damage, dots, the raidwide aoe and the ground targetted aoe that you take a tick of while you move out of it and I feel that often it is this unavoidable damage combined with a melee swing that can put your tank in danger depending on the fight, including tanks in starter gear. The only stat that is helping you with all this spell/aoe/dots/ground targetted damage is stamina. If your tank has lower eh, they may (but maybe not) be closer to death more often as well, I wonder if this doesn't stress your healers into casting more mana inefficient 'save the tank' heals sometimes and counterbalance the mana saved elsewhere by avoidance but I haven't healed much in Cataclysm so that's just pure speculation.

I don't remember our healers having mana problems often after the first week or so when they had 60-70k mana and they felt more comfortable healing a tank with more eh, if your healers prefer another approach then that is cool too. I'd still say it depends a fair bit on the boss but no ones ever really given me a convincing explanation of why avoidance is always so much better than stam in Cataclysm, I can see the logic behind what people are saying and it seems reasonable in some circumstances, I'm not convinced it's how it all works out in reality on every boss though. You could be right though, perhaps avoidance in a certain way to a certain point then stam is the way to go. I certainly agree that stam stacking is not as essential as it was in Wrath and tank damage has clearly changed in nature.

It's interesting though to see tanks in different guilds being effective using different gearing strategies and I'm sure there are some smart people and theorycrafters out there who also have the experience at high end raiding who are advocates of avoidance and are getting success with it. Im certainly going to spend some more time looking at the numbers and trying some things out.

Just my 2 pence (I do what my healers tell me anyway :))

@Mordain, when you say heroics do you mean instances or raids? I was clearing all heroics with several greens in the first few days after release and stacked stamina and it was perfectly fine, expertise and hit caps seemed completely unneeded. I think those are worthwhile things situationally but if you never lose aggro in heroics why cap them? Maybe you could get an unlucky streak on the pull if you have no md/tricks but I never noticed any real issue with it, I make pretty liberal use of cds too but that doesn't mean you can never be in danger of dying in starter gear especially when the healer is rocking greens too. I'm not saying it's wrong or bad to do that if you wish but I've personally never felt there was any need to take those stats in any gear in early heroics.

Knighterrant81
01-30-2011, 01:46 PM
I think in large part the jury's still out. Stamina is always good (the number one cause of tank deaths is running out of hit points, after all :p), and Mastery is pretty much the best "avoidance" stat these days. Parry is doing well due to the Hold the Line talent. I think the best thing right now is to go for a balance and you can slightly favor what you prefer, or what seems to be working best for you in the content you're doing. But I wouldn't go around breaking socket bonuses willy nilly. I'd pick up hybrid stamina gems and hybrid mastery gems, reforge for mastery (since you can't reforge for stamina anyway) and probably match most of your socket bonuses. It really may come down to how your healers are doing and what level of content you are working on as much as anything.

Krays
01-30-2011, 02:47 PM
Omg i think i know who that bacon, is lol :P This story is way to dam familiar to be coincidental. Probably just coincidence, but take my advice nip it in the bud. The type of raider bacon talks about will have always been like that and always will be, he will eventually destroy the guild from inside out, nip it in the bud! I seen similar people wreck 3 other top guilds with the same antics. Nothing will ever be good enough and they will be on vent far too much for you to ever counter their discontent.

Dont get me wrong , i know we all get worked out up time to time in raids thats normal ,and since your a top guild you obviously know the difference between emotional responses and "problem raiders". So if this dude is just extra emotional for what ever reason, then maybe he can change, but if hes the other type of person i mention, than he wont.

veneretio
01-30-2011, 05:23 PM
How do I show pride in my performance when my class is "overpowered"?
Showing pride aka bragging is unlikely to be well received regardless if your class is or is not op when you're talking to random people. When you're talking to friends it might be okay. This is called real life. People just don't like braggers.

Anyway really impressed by the show, Lore. I hadn't watched one of these in forever and I must say this is excellent content. Keep up the good work.

Uranos7
01-31-2011, 01:26 AM
All the tanks from Tankspot, LOD, and BlueXephos which have cleared all raid content on normal plus some heroic and posted video's to show others. Have posted in forums that a balanced approach is best.

But People cling to stam stacking only because it is so simple that a 3 yr old can do it!

Time to grow up and learn if you want to "play with the big kids".

As for which avoidance stat is best that depends on your class and playstyle; which will require a bit of research and testing on your own.
( Sattori has an excellent guide for DK's on the forums)

masema84
02-01-2011, 03:05 AM
My guild got stuck on M'uru too! We FINALLY killed him after 81 days of attempts. We ended up with a shaman in each group lol. Love PST... keep it up!

Oh and I don't mind when PST runs past 15min... I could listen to you talk for hours... you have a nice voice :)