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View Full Version : Paladin Rate my reforging and questions about something...



BryceE
01-27-2011, 12:36 PM
Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/nazgrel/galook/simple

How's my gems/enchants/reforging look? And my other question is kinda long, it's below.

I keep reading everyone saying hit/exp isn't really needed right now and I find that hard to believe. I mean, if you can't hit the boss then you can't get threat right? Right now I just re-reforged my gear that I had reforged to get to hit/exp cap with SoT up and I'm down to 6.8% hit and 5 exp (15 with SoT).

And I've been hearing of pallies using SoI instead of SoT a lot now. Is threat really not that big of a deal or am I just missing something here. Even with SoT up and max vengeance I can hit maybe 11-12k on a boss raid buffed, other than that, I sit around 5-7k.

There any good posts that explain the threat/hit/exp a little better in Cata or no. Or do these people just have really good gear that bumps em up to hit/exp caps without reforging?

Vigilant
01-27-2011, 01:43 PM
I didn't have time to look at all your gear, as I am out the door on the way to work. However, I glanced over the reforging mostly, and you are going to want to not reforge any avoidance stats to threat - ever - and you are going to want to be consistent in how you reforge.

As a general rule, if a piece has avoidance/threat, reforge the threat stat to mastery unless the threat stat is less than 60% of the avoidance stat, in which case you reforge the avoidance stat to maximize combat table coverage. If the piece has avoidance/avoidance reforge whichever has more on the piece. If the piece has mastery/threat, reforge the threat to avoidance, whether dodge or parry, depending on which you need to keep your parry a bit ahead of your dodge.

You don't need threat stats - ever - at this point in Cata content. Do do need survivability stats - always - at this point in Cata content. I suppose my one caveat would be if you are on interrupt duty, then you might want some hit. I'd get a dps to do it before I changed up my gear for hit/exp. though.

Dedic
01-27-2011, 02:52 PM
Yep, threat is that easy right now. I have like 2% hit and 3% crit but I'm top tank in my guild. Why? Because DPS isn't my job, and I am easy to heal and hard to kill. How? Mastery/avoidance gear, reforging hit/crit/exp to mastery/avoidance, and SoI/WoG. Even without stacking stam I'm over 140k hp in mostly heroic gear. I heal myself, the dps, and even the healer. It has saved many a wipe.

Oh and few slot bonuses are worth not gemming mastery.

BryceE
01-27-2011, 04:36 PM
My guild still wants me hit/exp capped and I'm kinda bias about it as well. I guess I'll just have to un reforge everything and do it all over and just get master/avoidance and if it has those on it not reforge it. Only thing I can see if I sometimes have to interrupt say halfus if I'm not the only pally tank in the raid.

Katzazi
01-27-2011, 04:38 PM
As a general rule, if a piece has avoidance/threat, reforge the threat stat to mastery unless the threat stat is less than 60% of the avoidance stat, in which case you reforge the avoidance stat to maximize combat table coverage.

I agree with everything above but this part. Even if the threat stat is less than 60% of the avoidance stat (which will probably never be the case anyway on cata gear) it's a better combat table coverage to reforge the threat stat to mastery. Because if you do this, you ADD the mastery to the avoidance. I the other case you would just blow up the stats only for the difference between the original dodge rating conversion and the mastery rating conversion. You would just lose more coverage by doing this. (Only exception would be very high avoidance values but we probably will never be so deep in the DR (diminishing returns) that this will be the case.)

And for the post of Dedic: Paladins don't want to have parry higher than dodge. They are equal in the effect for them. So they want to have them as close as possible together. You get more parry via kings and stuff, so if at all your dodge should be very slightly higher on the character sheet.

About your gemming:
Don't gem for hit or expertise or any other threat stat. The only things you should gem are mastery, parry and stam. I don't understand your geming strategy by the way. Normally one would either gem for stam or mastery with following socket bonus requirements on the other half of the gem. But you have full stam gems and full mastery gems. I don't see if you try to go for stam or mastery.

My main is not a paladin, but as far as I know it's probaly best to go for mastery at the moment. The little stam you get with those two gems will not do anything for you.

Enchats are ok as far as I can tell. In some places there may be another option but I think both are ok.



Now for the general idea of gearing a tank in Cata:
Yes you are following old school rules. There are no unaviodable big hits that kill the tank which cannot be dealt with in a special kind of way (including using CDs at the right moment). Normal hits don't kill the tanks in a short time. So tanks do not need such a high buffer of health at all. Additionally you cannot seriously buff you stamina anymore. The stamina on your gear (but trinkets) is fixed to the item-lvl. The enchants are more or less fixed, you do not decide between EH and avoidance there. At least not much. You cannot reforge to or from stamina. So the only places where you can adjust your health pool are gems and trinkets. The difference between only stam gems and no stam gems is about 8k HP. A tank with entry level raid gear has about 160k health anyway. So 8k HP is about 5%. Those 5% is not so big, that it will make the EH difference between surviving an additional hit or not. At least not in most cases.

On the other hand, the real problem in raids is healer mana. And the time they need to heal you up. So less and smaler hits help here much more than a big pool of health that gets drained all the time with 40% bigger hits. Healers cannot heal you to full in a short time, anymore. And if they try they drain there mana pool quite fast. A healer can spam their cheep small heal endlessly. But they can only cast a little bit more than 10 fast heals until oom. The big, slow heals are somewhere in between. So you want them to have the time to use the more mana efficient casts. The will last much longer, doing so. You can do this by gearing for avoidance and block. Block also smothes the dmg income. You will be much more stable to heal. Your dmg income will be much more predictable. If most of the hits are blocked hits, they can start the appropriate heal more easily than if they have to fear 6 full hits after 5 avoided hits.

About the threat stats: I have about 3% hit and 2 expertise on my warrior. Warriors ar more dependent on those stats than paladins, because their resource depends more on them. Even with my warrior I don't have problems to tank. At least not after the first few seconds. And if something goes bad at the start one has taunt. Later on your Vengeance will do all you need to give you a huge amount of threat. If you have threat once, you will not lose it later on in the fight. So gearing for it is just useless. Especially when gearing for survival is so important at the moment.

BryceE
01-27-2011, 08:09 PM
For the gemming, what about doing hybrid mastery and stam gems in every socket no matter what color the socket is? Or full mastery in say a yellow socket, and a hybrid mastery/stam in the other socket to match the colors?

EDIT: Gems should be updated on my armory now. ~3% hit, no gems/reforging for it, no reforged expertise so I'm at 6 exp.

Vigilant
01-27-2011, 09:23 PM
I agree with everything above but this part. Even if the threat stat is less than 60% of the avoidance stat (which will probably never be the case anyway on cata gear) it's a better combat table coverage to reforge the threat stat to mastery. Because if you do this, you ADD the mastery to the avoidance. I the other case you would just blow up the stats only for the difference between the original dodge rating conversion and the mastery rating conversion. You would just lose more coverage by doing this. (Only exception would be very high avoidance values but we probably will never be so deep in the DR (diminishing returns) that this will be the case.)

I have to admit that I am following the advice of Digren's Item Enhancement Guide (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=3&t=29733&rb_v=viewtopic) somewhat blindly when it comes to reforging, trusting that the math behind his simple explanations is thorough and correct, as it tends to be over there.

My understanding, derived from the guide, is that if the threat stat is less than 60% of the avoidance stat, you do indeed get better CTC by reforging the avoidance stat, as you will lose a relatively small amount of avoidance, but gain a relatively large amount of block chance, increasing your overall avoidance + block more than you would if you reforged the threat, which would net you a lot less mastery.

I could go try this out, and actually want to, on the Sandguard Bracers (http://www.wowhead.com/item=62449/sandguard-bracers). I reforged the dodge, as the expertise is only 58% of the dodge on the piece, and therefore doesn't meet the 60% rule. However, its so close that I would really prefer to reforge the expertise that I don't want anyways, and save the dodge. I'll reforge it the other way, and see which gives me better CTC.

Katzazi
01-28-2011, 03:51 AM
Well ok, it depends of what you want to archieve. Dirgen mentioned both goals in his guide. One is to get the dmg smoother, the other is to reduce incoming dmg. I was speaking about the later one. Because with the gear BryceE has, the dmg should be quite smooth, already.

I think it depend on how far into the DR you are. If you have lower gear, you get more dodge/parry percentage for the rating than later on. So you get a better coverage of the hit table by keeping the avoidance stat with lower gear than you would get with the same strategy on higher gear. There may be even a point, where you get a better coverage of the hit-table by reforging the avoidance stat when the other stat is so low. I don't know exactly, how good the conversion of points to mastery is for paladins, because I mostly play a warrior.

Dedic
01-28-2011, 08:09 AM
I keep parry a bit higher so my trinket is more likely to proc. Not much higher, but enough that I feel comfortable.