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Vudooz
01-23-2011, 12:41 PM
So hopefully someone here might be able to help me out some...as of right now I think I have a decent tanking set to start raids but I'm slightly confused as to how I should go about thinking as a tank for trying to min/max my gear. I've heard conflicting reports about warrior tanks stacking mastery over everything else....I think if I have it correct that warriors want Stamina/Mastery>Parry>Dodge all this while being expertise capped for threat. Some sites say not to worry about hit capping also while some say to worry about it for things such at taunt switches and interrupts.

So if I generally have that down is there some kind of program that will take a look at the gear I have and decide which pieces are better or not than one another cause with gemming/reforging/enchanting I tend to start getting lost with trying to keep capped with exp/hit and at the same time make it easier on my healers to keep me alive.

Selene
01-23-2011, 12:54 PM
First off I think this should be in the HALP! forum.

Secondly a link to your armory would help a lot with giving suggestions.

The value of Stamina is high debated at the moment depending on who you ask.
But as for actual tank stats for a Warrior to the best of my knowledge it is Mastery > Parry > Dodge. You want to try to keep your Parry and Dodge as even as possible with your Parry being slightly higher.

Gemming:
Red Socket - Parry/Stam or Expertise/Stam
Yellow Socket - Mastery/Stam or Mastery
Blue Socket - Stam or Mastery/Stam
Primatic Socket - Mastery/Stam, Stam, or Mastery

For shield tanks, the general rule for Hit/Expertise is you don't want it unless you are to be interrupting (i.e. you are the only reliable form of interrupts).

Vudooz
01-23-2011, 01:02 PM
Armory Link - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/proudmoore/vudooz/simple

Not sure if there is a way to move the entire thread to the HALP! forum as you suggested but if there is could someone let me know...this is my first time using the tank spot forums.

Petninja
01-23-2011, 01:02 PM
Expertise cap would have been useful in BC or Wrath, but with the removal of parry hasting and the general lawlfactor of threat generation past the start of the fight expertise won't do much good unless you are actually running into trouble with threat for some reason (IE totally outgeared by dps). Likewise hit is probably only going to be useful to you if you are the one people are relying on to interrupt spells, otherwise it's technically a survival loss to go for it. Taunt doesn't miss anymore so it's not an issue.

I would agree with your gearing priority otherwise. Keep in mind that the goal is to make damage intake as smooth as possible so that healers can react properly to the situation as it unfolds.

Petninja
01-23-2011, 01:06 PM
But as for actual tank stats for a Warrior to the best of my knowledge it is Mastery > Parry > Dodge. You want to try to keep your Parry and Dodge as even as possible with your Parry being slightly higher.


There are threads on the site right now debating the value of keeping parry and dodge even. Presently it looks as if it's closer to "make sure parry is less than twice dodge with HtL" rather than 1:1. I wouldn't take it as official until more numbers are run, but 1:1 might not be a hard rule you want to drive into peoples minds just yet.

Selene
01-23-2011, 01:22 PM
There are threads on the site right now debating the value of keeping parry and dodge even. Presently it looks as if it's closer to "make sure parry is less than twice dodge with HtL" rather than 1:1. I wouldn't take it as official until more numbers are run, but 1:1 might not be a hard rule you want to drive into peoples minds just yet.

I did put down to the best of my knowledge at the start of that too.

Thragus
01-23-2011, 01:25 PM
It seems right now in Normal raids Mastery is being prefered. The term "smooth out the damage" is used alot to refer to how the added block and critical block is helping to keep tank damage from spiking. Being a warrior tank myself I wouldn't reccommend stacking mastery and sacraficing all other stats. However if its a toss up between a Mastery/Expertise or a Dodge/Expertise item go with the mastery.You still want to gem for some Stam but overall because of the nature of healing these days you get more use out of the mastery than the raw stam. However this is likely reversed in Heroic raids.

As far as avoidance you want to do your best to keep Dodge/Parry as even as possible. It is true that Parry is better for a us because of hold the line but over the course of a fight too much parry will lead to quicker diminishing returns, resulting in getting less out of your gear. From what I have found the DR on Dodge/Parry is around 14% for each. 14% is very easy to hit if you stack one over the other, even in 5-man heroic gear so be mindful and reforge if need be. Overall a healthy amount seem to be about 23-26% combined parry and dodge.

For threat stats you want to have a healthy amount of expertise. 26 is ideal but don't panic or kill your survivability reforging for it. With current gear its easy to hit about 20 before you even get into raids (I'd highly reccommend the crafted chest for this, it has a boatload of expertise) the only time expertise is a big factor is on the pull. It's not unheard of to get an unlucky Parry on your 1st shield slam or revenge, just make sure you let your DPSers know to give you a second or 2 and to make sure to keep an eye on omen. Hit rating you don't need to worry about. I currently have 1 or 2 pieces of hit and rarely miss in interrupt fights or taunts. I do still miss from time to time however so if you feel its extremely important you can reforge for it however anything beyond 8% is a waste.

My advice would be to stay well rounded. Once you get into the flow of raiding and get a better feel for your role and your raid you can determine for yourself what stats are most beneficial in certain situations.

Aggathon
01-23-2011, 02:27 PM
As far as avoidance you want to do your best to keep Dodge/Parry as even as possible. It is true that Parry is better for a us because of hold the line but over the course of a fight too much parry will lead to quicker diminishing returns, something that can be costly later in a fight. From what I have found the DR on Dodge/Parry is around 14% for each. 14% is very easy to hit if you stack one over the other, even in 5-man heroic gear so be mindful and reforge if need be. Overall a healthy amount seem to be about 23-26% combined parry and dodge.


Please elaborate, because nothing in this paragraph makes sense to me, and I like to think I'm pretty in-tune with theorycrafting. Especially the underlined parts.



For threat stats you want to have a healthy amount of expertise. 26 is ideal but don't panic or kill your survivability reforging for it. With current gear its easy to hit about 20 before you even get into raids (I'd highly reccommend the crafted chest for this, it has a boatload of expertise) the only time expertise is a big factor is on the pull. It's not unheard of to get an unlucky Parry on your 1st shield slam or revenge, just make sure you let your DPSers know to give you a second or 2 and to make sure to keep an eye on omen. Hit rating you don't need to worry about. I currently have 1 or 2 pieces of hit and rarely miss in interrupt fights or taunts. I do still miss from time to time however so if you feel its extremely important you can reforge for it however anything beyond 8% is a waste.


From my experience this is completely incorrect. Threat is not a problem at all. I've even spammed searing pain to try and pull a mob off a tank so that I could drag it to the side and CC it, and I simply cannot pull threat from tanks unless they just aren't pressing buttons. Conversely, especially in 5 mans or 10 mans were your options for interrupts may be limited, it is a good idea to have ways to get to the melee yellow hit cap (8%) if you are doing a fight that REQUIRES interrupts to not fail. Now these fights are few and far between, so I wouldn't say that 8% hit is required in your main set of gear, but just know that you may need to get 8% for specific fights. And if you have two melee DPS with 10 sec interrupts, then... whatever, this probably wouldn't be an issue, though I am a bigger fan of a tank interrupting than causing the DPS to do less dmg b/c of banking energy or whatever for interrupts. The faster things die, the less time there is for something to go wrong.

MellvarTank
01-23-2011, 02:43 PM
I think Thragus is misunderstanding the nature of the term DR.

Diminishing Returns are used to describe how much avoidance per point of rating you get. So if a piece has 140 parry rating on it, higher DR's mean you'll get less parry % from that 140 rating. It has nothing to do with fight mechanics in any way.

Aggathon
01-23-2011, 02:44 PM
Way to take away my fun Mellvar.

Thragus
01-23-2011, 03:44 PM
Thank you Mellvar for clearing that up for me.

Aggathon: Once a fight gets going you can spam all you like and not pull from a good tank. Early, however losing threat on a boss is a real risk if an big opening attack isn't landed, especially without a hunter MD or something similar to give you an early boost. I also agree 8% hit is not needed, I was merely letting him know what not to go past in the event he feels he needs to make sure he gets every interrupt.

Aggathon
01-23-2011, 11:50 PM
The tank I run heroics with right now has 4 expertise. I can't pull threat off him, not even at the beginning if I try.

MellvarTank
01-24-2011, 08:35 AM
If one of your first two attacks lands, usually you are fine for threat. I've had a couple of instances where that doesn't happen, but that is what the rest of the attacks are for.

/wait for sunders
/snicker

Llirk
01-24-2011, 08:48 AM
If one of your first two attacks lands, usually you are fine for threat. I've had a couple of instances where that doesn't happen, but that is what the rest of the attacks are for.

Same for me running with 2.8% hit and 1 (erp) expertise. Haven't really had any trouble except for openings where I either miss an early attack and rage starve or have to move the boss (say Ulthok in ToT who I like to move to the back/side so his purple circles have more room to go) or have dps unload in a silly way (nothing like seeing the giant pyroball of flame heading over my head as I run toward the boss). Even in these cases taunt is usually enough. Once things get going rarely have trouble being at least 50% if not 100% ahead of dps on threat.

MellvarTank
01-24-2011, 08:50 AM
You ERP once with the boss to get aggro?!

Knighterrant81
01-24-2011, 01:14 PM
I think mastery is a bit overblown currently. Time to live without healing still matters, and as a healer, I appreciate a tank with a big stamina buffer. Healers are still gcd limited, and if the tanks health total is low we still have to babysit them. Mastery is the best avoidance stat but don't throw out all your stamina gems just yet.

MellvarTank
01-24-2011, 02:10 PM
Mastery is not an avoidance stat.

ironsides
01-24-2011, 03:12 PM
I disagree with alot of what has been said in this thread. I run with full mastery, only gemming mastery/stam etc. for socket bonus. As a warrior tank I take basically the least damage in my guild as a tank however it is very close between me and our geared druid. I do agree with agg as usual expertise and hit are not needed. It has literally been said over and over in many threads on these forums and others that reforging or gemming for these threat stats are not worth it unless you need the extra dps/threat for a specific fight. The fact that people still keep coming here saying "your supposed to cap expertise right?" is getting at least a bit frustrating. Especially when other tanks then agree with them.

If a healer likes a tank with a big health pool I am sorry but this sounds like you just like the health pool so you can slack and have longer to respond to situations. Mastery does result in much less damage taken and much less spike damage. It allows healers to avoid going oom and allows them to use their more mana efficient spells rather than have to bomb holy lights etc. all fight. My guild currently has several hard modes down and with the massive amount of damage you take on some of these fights I know there is no way I would live with pure stamina. Our healers are already damn near oom. To say that Hard modes are going to favor stamina is silly especially since all the warriors in the end game guilds that are doing this content are doing basically the opposite. If you haven't done research, looked up what others are doing etc. don't just assume you know how things will go in harder content.

On top of this I want to remind everyone why EH was important, EH allowed you to live through spike damage, fights where you could take massive amounts of damage and would often be the situation where tanks would die. EH allowed you to survive these situations, the health pool allowed you to sit there survive the huge chain of spike damage and then get healed up. This is not the case atm, I was an EH supporter but the current content just doesn't agree with it. You very rarely take huge spike damage anymore than will kill you unless your doing something wrong. In general it is just a steady stream of damage, the lower this damage is the easier to heal. The massive health pool is unneeded to survive this damage, the mitigation and avoidance that dodge/parry/ and block give you lower this amount of damage (don't forget about armor). The way I see it is that EH has just had it's priorities changed, the objective of course is still to "survive" the fight. EH does this best, but if your healers go oom and your health is never approaching 20/30% until they do so that health is just a waste. Unless it is acting as necessary cushioning like it did in ToGc and ICC to keep you alive it is wasted stats. Healer mana and the amount their spells heal for are very important atm and thus we must cater to those needs atm. At a future date perhaps in another tier or 2 when healers have no mana issues (if this ever happens again) EH will return to it's proper place I am sure but as it stands stamina is no longer king.

Feel free to agree or disagree with me but that is my 2 cents.

edit: Taunts can no longer miss either in regards to the original post.

MellvarTank
01-24-2011, 04:16 PM
This is not the case atm, I was an EH supporter but the current content just doesn't agree with it. You very rarely take huge spike damage anymore than will kill you unless your doing something wrong. In general it is just a steady stream of damage, the lower this damage is the easier to heal. The massive health pool is unneeded to survive this damage, the mitigation and avoidance that dodge/parry/ and block give you lower this amount of damage (don't forget about armor). The way I see it is that EH has just had it's priorities changed, the objective of course is still to "survive" the fight. EH does this best, but if your healers go oom and your health is never approaching 20/30% until they do so that health is just a waste. Unless it is acting as necessary cushioning like it did in ToGc and ICC to keep you alive it is wasted stats. Healer mana and the amount their spells heal for are very important atm and thus we must cater to those needs atm. At a future date perhaps in another tier or 2 when healers have no mana issues (if this ever happens again) EH will return to it's proper place I am sure but as it stands stamina is no longer king.

This is blatant misuse of the term EH. BY STACKING MASTERY YOU ARE GEARING FOR EH. It is just an entirely different method of doing so. You may have forgotten, but EH has 2 distinct components: Stamina (health) and damage reduction (which used to be only armor as block was largely useless due to itemisation, etc.). Due to block now having a percentage reduction, getting to passive 'unhittable' (where every hit is blocked) is basically increasing your armor exponentially which technically increases your EH. Block is mitigation, NOT avoidance, just like armor. Mastery does not suffer DRs the same way as avoidance, which makes it point for point a better investment. Avoidance is Dodge, parry, miss which there are very few people (and nobody in top-tier content) gearing for.

The idea behind stacking mastery is the exact same idea behind stacking EH: Decrease the spike as much as you can, have a large enough health pool that you don't get one shot (which currently can be gotten from gear with a few gems and maybe one trinket), and smooth out the intake of damage for healers. That has been, and will always continue to be, the best way to gear.

Katzazi
01-24-2011, 07:44 PM
This is blatant misuse of the term EH. BY STACKING MASTERY YOU ARE GEARING FOR EH. It is just an entirely different method of doing so. You may have forgotten, but EH has 2 distinct components: Stamina (health) and damage reduction (which used to be only armor as block was largely useless due to itemisation, etc.). Due to block now having a percentage reduction, getting to passive 'unhittable' (where every hit is blocked) is basically increasing your armor exponentially which technically increases your EH. Block is mitigation, NOT avoidance, just like armor.

No. Block is mitigation, but it's no mitigation you can be sure to have. At least until you reach unhittability. Most warriors will be able to have it 1/3 of the time, but at the moment it's not possible to definitly have it all the time. So most of the time it's a kind of rdm mitigation.

EH is about what you can survive in the worst case. It never was about average case or something like this. The worst case is: You don't avoid anything and you don't have SB ready and you don't block. EH is the amount of dmg you can take all the time without needing a heal and being able to survive. You don't have block all the time, so it's not part of EH.

Sure it's there 1/3 of the time, and that makes it really good during this time, just because EH ideas, but it's not a part of EH until we get passive unhittable and don't need SB for it any longer.

Aggathon
01-24-2011, 10:08 PM
Block is only EH if you have 102.4% passive block+parry+dodge+5% miss, in which case it sort of acts like armor. However, I still prefer to think of block as it's own thing, separate from avoidance and EHP.

Really when it comes down to it, it's a matter of semantics, we're all talking about the same thing here.

MellvarTank
01-25-2011, 09:02 AM
No. Block is mitigation

I'm pretty sure I said that. It's even in the quote that you put at the beginning of your post. Try reading the whole thing. ;)

Stating that EH=Stamina is wrong.

ironsides
01-25-2011, 10:20 AM
I didn't really say EH was stamina, but you can not deny that an Integral portion of EH was stamina, to say block is a different form of EH isn't something I really agree with. People are not currently gearing for EH because the current worst case scenarios do not kill people that is why people are shying away from armor and stam and are going for average damage reduction. Sure all stats played a small roll in EH but Stamina was undeniably king and without a huge choice in armor trinkets/enchants to say that EH would entail a whole lot more than stacking gems at this point in Cata would be hard to argue. What I do agree on is EH's primary goal was always to make the tank survive the encounter, the way current tanks are gearing is the same but instead of living through shitty scenarios they are living through sustained damage.

MellvarTank
01-25-2011, 10:22 AM
.....How is armor not average damage reduction exactly?

Reev
01-25-2011, 10:27 AM
No. Block is mitigation, but it's no mitigation you can be sure to have. At least until you reach unhittability. Most warriors will be able to have it 1/3 of the time, but at the moment it's not possible to definitly have it all the time. So most of the time it's a kind of rdm mitigation.

EH is about what you can survive in the worst case. It never was about average case or something like this. The worst case is: You don't avoid anything and you don't have SB ready and you don't block. EH is the amount of dmg you can take all the time without needing a heal and being able to survive. You don't have block all the time, so it's not part of EH.

Sure it's there 1/3 of the time, and that makes it really good during this time, just because EH ideas, but it's not a part of EH until we get passive unhittable and don't need SB for it any longer.

It's there closer to 70% of the unavoided hits with most warriors, and that's without shield block up. That's pretty consistent, though not 100% by any means. Still, it's a hell of a lot more than 1/3.

ironsides
01-25-2011, 10:37 AM
I never said anything about armor not being EH, in fact in my last post I pointed out how there isn't a whole lot of armor enchants/trinkets to work with during this expansion. While armor is EH please tell me how you would gear pure EH this expac in terms of armor. Because to my knowledge bar incredibly crappy armor trinkets that stam would be better than anyway there isn't any. You can't reforge for the armor, can't gem for it, there are no worthwhile armor kits that are better than other stam enchants. You ask people to read your posts, would be nice if you did the same for others without jumping down their throat and trying to tell them that block is EH.

MellvarTank
01-25-2011, 10:38 AM
People are not currently gearing for EH because the current worst case scenarios do not kill people that is why people are shying away from armor and stam and are going for average damage reduction.

Please explain this sentence.

edit: In it you STATE that people do "SHY AWAY FROM ARMOR" and go for "AVERAGE DAMAGE REDUCTION". So I asked "How is armor not average damage reduction?"

You are inferring I said something I did not. I not only read your whole post, I re-read it to make sure you said what I thought you did. I recommend you do the same.

How would I recommend gearing for EH this expac? Get to 102.4% miss/dodge/parry/block for 30% damage reduction which is far more than any amount of armor/stam you could possibly get from trinkets.

ironsides
01-25-2011, 10:42 AM
I see your point, I shouldn't have said armor there. Merely didn't want to say stam then get yelled at for saying EH was only Stamina. I think as agg said we are all just discussing semantics, pretty sure we are all in agreement in the end. Of course nobody is really shying away from armor because there isn't really any good way to get armor nowadays since there are no armor heavy pieces of gear.

ironsides
01-25-2011, 10:45 AM
Although I would have to say while armor is average damage reduction what I did really mean was what resulted in the most decreased damage over time, armor is definite but a mastery trinket would result in much more average damage reduction than an armor trinket. I just didn't word myself carefully enough I suppose.

Aggathon
01-25-2011, 10:47 AM
I think everyone should take some time to re-read this, especially the underlined, italics, bolded part at the very bottom:



Section 2: EHP and terminology

First: RNG, which stands for Random Number Generator. This is used to denote anything that is a statistical probability, not a certainty. That is there is a hidden dice roll to determine whether or not you dodge/block/parry/miss or get hit by an attack. This is a random number generator. I’ll discuss this a little more when talking about avoidance and the combat table.

EHP stands for Effective Hit Points. Essentially what this is is converting incoming damage to a raw hit point value. It is a way to relate hit points to damage reduction. The reason is that the number one cause of tank death is running out of hit points, but hit points come in two forms, health and armor. Since armor reduces the damage you take, it acts like hit points in that it keeps you alive and you take less damage, damage that would otherwise need to be healed. So if you convert all incoming damage based on your damage reduction to “raw” hit points, you get how much the boss would hit for if you went from full hit points to zero if none of the damage was mitigated at all. So for a small example if you had 1000 hit points and 50% armor reduction and you were hit for exactly 1000 hit points, the actual hit unmitigated would be 2000 hit points, so a tank with 0 armor reduction and 2000 hit points could take the same equivalent damage as a tank with 1000 hit points and 50% armor reduction.
The variable setup and subsequent equation for EHP is as follows:


Hit Points: This is simply how many hit points you have. If you are evaluating a piece of gear and want the stam conversion then it is:



Health = Stam * 10 * 1.1 * 1.09 * 1.15


The 10 is simply 10 hit points per point of stam

1.1 is the modifier for kings (10% increased stats)

1.09 is for the warrior modifier for hit points (9% increased stam from vitality) and this number changes based on your class. For paladins it is also a 9% modifier, for blood DKs it is 1.03*1.08*1.02(runes) (which is 1.13465), and for druids I’m pretty sure for the number here it is 1.06*1.1*1.02*1.25 (6% from survival of the fittest, 10% from heart of the wild, 2% from imp MotW, and 1.25% from bear form)

1.15 is 15% for the ICC raid buff currently.



Armor: The reduction from armor is given by the following equation
First we need a value “K” which is a static number based on blizzard calculations. The use of it will be more evident in the total armor equation. The equation for K is as follows:


K = (467.5 * L) - 22167.5


In this equation L is the level of the mob you are fighting. Therefore at level 80 a boss (level 83) would yield an L value of 83. Subsequently solving this equation we can get the constant we are looking for:


K = (467.5 * 83) - 22167.5
K = 16635


This is going to be the constant value we use in the armor calculation. Remember the constants 467.5 and 22167.5 come from blizzard set standards, at least as far as I can tell it does and it yields proper numbers so I assume it is correct.


After this we can solve for the total armor reduction equation:


http://www.tankspot.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1519&d=1272928679&thumb=1 (http://www.tankspot.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1519&d=1272928679)


Where M is the mitigation percent in decimal form and A is the armor value you have on your toon. So for an example if you have 35000 armor the equation yields:



http://www.tankspot.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1520&d=1272928752



Therefore at 35000 armor the percent reduction against a level 83 mob is 67.78%
A side not here, there is an innate diminishing return to the value of M. As A approaches ∞ it because significantly greater than K, but since K is still a part of it technically never reaches A/A or 1, so as A is really big, each increase in A is a smaller increase in total mitigation. To further illustrate I’ll give an example in 5,000 armor increments:


http://www.tankspot.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1522&d=1272929944




As you can see by the 5,000 step increase in armor, the change in reduction gets smaller as you approach 75%. Now 75% is the actual cap, so the “Armor Cap” is 49905 armor.


These values lead us to the final EHP calculation which in its simplest form is:



http://www.tankspot.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1521&d=1272929213 (http://www.tankspot.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1521&d=1272929213)



However the denominator of this equation is a little tricky because you see the damage reduction values are not “Additive” they are “Multiplicative.” If it were additive then if you had 67% reduction from armor and 10% reduction from inspiration and 3% reduction from blessing if sanc you would add those up and have 80% damage reduction. However, this is not so, instead the damage is multiplicative meaning that each modifier gets multiplied by the last. Therefore for every reduction effect you add (1-%reduction) to the bottom. Essentially all classes have a set number of reduction effects when raid buffed: reduction from armor, some talent or presence, 10% from inspiration effects, and the 3% reduction on buffs like blessing of sanctuary or vigilance. If there are any other modifiers, you simply multiply them to the end of the denominator in the same (1-%reduction) form.


Therefore the EHP calculation for a warrior raid buffed would be:



http://www.tankspot.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1524&d=1272930858



Therefore the effective hit points of a prot warrior with 50,000 health and 35,000 armor fully raid buffed is 195,918. Meaning that if a boss was to hit the tank unmitigated and you turned the tanks mitigation into hit points, the tank could take 195,917 damage without dying.

Now for some more terminology:

I think one of the biggest misconceptions is “mitigation” versus “avoidance.” Mitigation is defined as a reduction in damage when hit. Therefore armor mitigates a hit because it still lands, but hits for less. Block is another form of mitigation in that when you do block the attack lands, but usually for just a decreased amount. However, since unless you have a warrior with shield block up or a paladin manages to get to 102.4% dodge+block+miss+parry (or warrior in an unhittable set), block still is somewhat RNG based since it is a % chance. I guess I’d call it probable mitigation, not guaranteed mitigation.
And subsequently I do not consider block EHP. That doesn't decrease its importance and once you are unhittable (or what used to be uncrushable) you can consider block EHP. It does act as a defacto form of EHP when you block, which is why it is so good, but it is not generally considered part of the "EH" or "EHP" formula. Having said that, it does act as pretty much a metric f*** ton of armor when a block tank gets 102.4% unhittable, which is why it is so damned good right now, and why Blizzard probably nerfed armor buffs in cata in the first place.

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure everyone here is actually agreeing, there's just terminology differences.

Berune
01-25-2011, 10:51 AM
... there are no worthwhile armor kits that are better than other stam enchants. ...

I don't mean to nitpick, but in the case of a cloak enchant, isn't the +250 armor enchant to cloak still among the top options for tanks?

Also I think in a few other slots, the enchant comparison comes down say avoidance vs. threat (vs block via mastery). In those cases you're really not choosing "avoidance over EH" because there simply may not be a good EH enchant available for the given slot (think gloves might fight that profile?).

Also, I wouldn't assume that tanks are shying away from, or avoiding gearing for EH. I think it's more a case of looking at the available options, figuring out what works well *now*, and moving in that direction - currently that path appears to emphasize mastery (for block) and the avoidance stats more favorably. That could (and probably will, at least for some bosses) change as the new tiers of content are released.

Honestly I don't think it's ever really "EH or Not-EH", it's more just that tanks are learning what works best with their groups right now, and are gearing towards that goal, regardless of which camp or philosophy that currently effective gearing strategy seems to align with.

ironsides
01-25-2011, 10:54 AM
Indeed and yes the armor to cloak enchant is basically still the best enchant you can use.

Aggathon
01-25-2011, 11:00 AM
Look, EHP is an outdated term, frankly. Mainly because all the good parts about EH (mitigation) no longer matter in terms of how much damage a tank can take without heals.

Read my lips. It is now all about.... drumroll...

...

...

...

HEALING!!!! Healer mana, effective healing done (aka mitigation = healing that doesn't need to be healed = ridiculously good for healers). The benefit of mitigation in relation to how big your effective health pool is DOES NOT MATTER ANY MORE. For some fights there is a minimum amount of HPs you just must have based on certain boss abilities. This number is not as ambiguous as it once was because it relies on a specific boss ability for certain fights, as far as I can tell. Once you have around 180k-ISH hit points fully buffed, then the game becomes all about saving healer mana. Mitigation and Avoidance are how you do this.

I can guarantee you that if you walk into a raid gemmed in all stam your healers are going to hate you, you're going to drain their mana, and you will die. I know this from experience. This is just to re-iterate that it's all about saving healer mana. You can't get avoidance levels that high any more, but with how good block is and how things work now, getting to a 102.4% unhittable level as a block tank is the best way to save your healer's mana.

Reev
01-25-2011, 11:03 AM
I pretty much agree with Agg's post above.

MellvarTank
01-25-2011, 11:04 AM
Don't forget the whole big heal = big mana cost and thus your best way to save healer mana is to smooth out incoming damage as best as possible so smaller, efficient heals are used, which is another reason for block.

Aggathon
01-25-2011, 11:06 AM
^ that too.

Loganisis
01-25-2011, 11:24 AM
Is this a fair summary of thought so far, as nothing has been firmly established...

EH is important for fight with high magic damage, otherwise prot tanks are best suited running a set that follows the following guidelines:

* Target Dodge/Parry/Block is 72.4% (102.4 - 5% base boss miss = 97.4-25% when shield block is used = 72.4%)
* Parry, as I understand should be ~3% higher than dodge, as that's the equilibrium point for HtL's benefit with Parry over Dodge
* Once 72.4% is reached, mastery should be un-reforged at a rate where parry stays ~3% higher than dodge.

In high magic damage fights, EH will still be valuable, but the base set is a 72.4% set.

Gemming for socket bonuses is best on tank gear, as a general guideline.

*******

The question I have, which runs counter to the above.. is why isn't 97.4% mastery/dodge/parry the target so 100% of the time there is damage reduction and shield block becomes a CD rather than an on CD ability?

97.4% would guarantee 30% damage reduction minimum with some% dodged/parried. As it is, shield block has a 16.66% uptime, so 83.33% of the time, 28% of attacks will have no reduction on incoming damage....

If the goal is making healing easiest since 3 or 4 swing kills are rare (and that's what CDs are for), it would seem that 97.4% would be the target?

Aggathon
01-25-2011, 11:27 AM
Yes, it would be, however, it's pretty hard to get there at current ilevels AFAIK.

I'd be careful about the "magic damage" thing, because people will think that means fights like V&F or something, where mitigation is still going to be the number one healing saver.

See, the problem is, there isn't a fight that is going to do 150k+ burst damage to a tank and kill it. At the point in time you have enough HP to survive said magic attack, having more stamina still doesn't help.

Loganisis
01-25-2011, 11:34 AM
What I was hearing (been travelling, so I'm DPS with limited play) is there are a few fights were big burst magic damage followed by smaller melee attacks can be killers?

It really isn't any different than WotLK - tanks had a stamina set and a base set (more armor), is it? You have proper gearing and then a situational set of gear (usally just a few pieces)?

***

So the thinking with Mastery is kinda like ArP in wrath... You want up to X unless you can hit Y, then go for Y.

So gear for 72.4% dodge/parry/block until you can hit 97.4% so you don't lose any value of shield block? If 97.4% ever becomes something that is feasible?

Aggathon
01-25-2011, 11:36 AM
Sure on the second half.

I really hesitate to call Cata gearing anything CLOSE to WotLK gearing. The target stam minimums are (relativistically speaking) significantly lower than in WotLK.

Also: again, it's not about the tank, it's about the healers.

Kazeyonoma
01-25-2011, 11:37 AM
you don't lose shield block value though, as you gain more mastery past 72.4% you merely push more an dmore of your shield block into critical block %

MellvarTank
01-25-2011, 11:39 AM
Also I hope you aren't talking about Chimaeron, a 5 second swing timer makes this fight appear scary from the damage, but not be scary because of the swing timer.

Loganisis
01-25-2011, 11:47 AM
Sure on the second half.

I really hesitate to call Cata gearing anything CLOSE to WotLK gearing. The target stam minimums are (relativistically speaking) significantly lower than in WotLK.

Also: again, it's not about the tank, it's about the healers.

Fair enough - I'm looking for parallels I understand, and ArP and multiple gear sets were two I understood.

Aggathon
01-25-2011, 12:25 PM
I don't think gearsets are going to be as important as trinket swapping.

This fight has a mechanic that I can't avoid? okay toss on my stam trinkets with avoidance cooldowns. This fight requires me to just not be hit? Okay put on my mastery/avoidance trinkets.

ironsides
01-25-2011, 12:35 PM
Also I hope you aren't talking about Chimaeron, a 5 second swing timer makes this fight appear scary from the damage, but not be scary because of the swing timer.

I imagine things such as electric bursts on Nefarion and deep breathes on Halfus are more his examples since Chimaeron damage isn't really supposed to be heal-able, just get the tank to 10k hp and your good. But in terms of basically all these mechanics they either 1. don't do enough damage to make you die without healer reaction or 2. don't happen often enough that you can't just cool-down these mechanics. No need for 210k hp for an electric burst when you can just pop last stand instead.

Berune
01-25-2011, 02:24 PM
I don't think gearsets are going to be as important as trinket swapping.

This fight has a mechanic that I can't avoid? okay toss on my stam trinkets with avoidance cooldowns. This fight requires me to just not be hit? Okay put on my mastery/avoidance trinkets.

I think it's fair to extend this to consumables as well, given some options there:

steelskin flask when you need the pure health pool (big unavoidable bursts)

armor elixir + mastery elixir (mostly melee/avoidable-physical attacks inc)

...there is also the resistance elixir, which *could* be useful in extreme magic-damage situations

Also several good options for buff food now to help round out stats (mastery or parry for avoidance, hit for interrupt fights/off-tanking maybe, etc.).

I'd say you could cover a lot of the situational-set ground by swapping trinkets + consumables in general.

...course the situations could get more extreme at the next tier *shrug*.

Aggathon
01-25-2011, 02:50 PM
I agree with that completely Berune.