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shiz98
01-19-2011, 03:14 PM
I think I have a few answers to some of the Arms questions that've been lingering around. Figured I'd share 'em here to see what people think!

Stat Priorities

Hit/Haste/Expertise
We generally assume hit to be the best DPS stat up to the cap, because well, that's just almost always the case. Now Expertise would be up there too, since the rating conversion is the same and the resulting effect is the same, except that getting dodged allows us to overpower, which does all sorts of crazy things to the rotation. Bottom line: Expertise isn't as valuable as hit from a pure DPS perspective.

However, when you look at things from a rage perspective things get interesting. I think the basic rotation you want to maintain as Arms (speaking on patch 4.0.6 terms) is Slam/MS/OP/Rend/CS on every CD. HS is for suckers. Now from my experience (in woefully crappy gear), I can pretty much do that on 7.5% haste, 8 expertise, and 4.5% hit. Ok, cool. So what?

Let's look at haste. Haste, to be blunt, sucks as a DPS stat. It's just bad, even if Slam scales with it, because it really only affects something like 30% of our dps. The real value in haste, however, is increasing rage gen, which is why we want it.

However Hit and Expertise, from a rage generation perspective, do the exact same thing as haste[i], and what's more, [i]they do it at a better conversion ratio. 1% hit == 1% haste == 1% expertise if you're trying to generate rage. However, it only takes ~120 Hit/Expertise to equal the effect of ~128 Haste. See where I'm going with this?

If we look at those numbers I posted above, that's about 14% rage bonus from my stats. Turns out, if you cap both hit and expertise you've got about, hey, 14% rage bonus! Plus, expertise most definitely gives more raw DPS than Haste.

This basically turns the stat priorities around a bit: you start by capping hit because it's a damn good idea all around. From there you're really just worried about being able to maintain a stable rotation with your rage income. The most efficient means of doing this is actually to get expertise first, and haste only after you've capped your expertise. In fact, anecdotal evidence would suggest that once you cap hit and expertise, you don't need any haste. Therefore our new priority is:


Hit > Expertise > STR > [everything else] > Haste

Where everything else consists of two stats...

Crit/Mastery

Let's think about it this way:



Crit:
120% Damage bonus
62% Weapon damage bonus (from DW/Trauma)

Mastery:
100 + [crit]% Weapon damage bonus
62% * crit Weapon damage bonus


Now, all of our abilities hit harder than our melee swing, so the damage bonus from crit is pretty much always going to be higher (for any reasonable level of crit). Similarly, the Deep Wounds damage from a crit is always going to be higher in any realistic settings.

So percent for percent, crit is superior. However, Mastery is twice as effective as crit on a rating per rating basis. If you double those numbers from the Mastery section above, things start to get a little more interesting:


Mastery:
200% + 2*[crit] Weapon damage bonus
124% *[crit] Weapon damage bonus


Assume you've got 10% crit, and that works out to a 232% weapon damage bonus, per 1% mastery.

Let's assume that each ability does a minimum of 150% weapon damage. Each point of crit is then worth 242% damage, minimum.

Bottom line: crit and mastery are roughly equal. However, mastery scales with crit and crit does not, so as gear improves greatly mastery will probably take over.

Final stat priority:

Hit > Expertise > STR > Crit = Mastery > Haste

Crit is probably sightly better than mastery right now, but I imagine the opposite will be true in later tiers.

Rotation
Basic rotation:


1. Maintain Rend
2. Expiring TfB proc
3. Mortal Strike
4. TfB Proc
5. Slam

Colossus Smash throws us for a bit of a loop. Damage wise it sucks -- Slam actually hits harder. CS's real value is the benefit it gives to the abilities used after it. As such, I think its place in the rotation should be solely as a buff to Overpower/MS/Slam. I'd go so far as to say that it should only be used right before you can line up a back-to-back MS/OP combo (with a side helping of Slam, rage permitting). In other words, don't try to maintain CS uptime or anything; treat it as a simple buff to those two abilities.

Stance Dancing
With the ability to keep 75 of our rage while swapping stances, the fact that stance dancing doesn't trigger the GCD, and the 5% damage bonus from Zerker stance, it seems like we should be able to bust out a good ~2% damage increase by stance dancing at the correct times. When you think about it, the only reason to stay in Battle Stance is for Rend and OP procs, which we can easily handle. With some practice I've been able to get a noticable DPS increase by hopping into zerker stance whenever I don't need to use Rend or an OP proc. CS, Slam, and MS can all be used rather fluidly, and you also get the added benefit of being able to pop Recklessness in tandem with Deadly Calm and trinkets and such.

The End
Sorry about the shoddy presentation of this stuff. I'll format it and present it much more nicely if/when I make an Arms guide for this expansion. Assuming, of course, that this all seems to be correct. Please pick apart my reasoning :)

Kazeyonoma
01-19-2011, 03:23 PM
My concern shiz, is that with lambs to the slaughter, as well as colossus smash's impact on the follow 3 buttons pressed would warrant capping expertise as important as hit because getting dodged on an MS or a CS would probably see a large decrease in your damage output. I know you later indicate hit > expertise > str but at the very beginning you make it seem like expertise isn't as important because it lets you OP if you get dodged, but trading an MS or a CS for another OP without lambs buff or without CS buff, sounds more like a dps loss than a dps gain don't you think?

Also, where does bladestorm fit into our rotation?

Kazeyonoma
01-19-2011, 03:28 PM
Also, if it helps, here's a few logs of my damage output.

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/detail/2114278667#damageout
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/detail/2114278693#damageout
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/detail/2114278882#damageout

OP is always my number 1 damage ability followed by MS then Opportunity strikes (i have something like 35-36% mastery) or melee round out the top 4 abilities. (as expected).

shiz98
01-19-2011, 07:36 PM
but at the very beginning you make it seem like expertise isn't as important because it lets you OP if you get dodged
Yeah, that was poorly explained. It's what happens when I post in a rush I guess : /

Anyway, what I was trying to express is that from a pure damage perspective expertise doesn't do as much as hit would, due to OP. But when you factor in the rage, it's good. It gets even better, like you said, if you consider Lambs to the Slaughter. I'm also a big believer in the benefits of being totally capped so that you can predict your rotation better.

Bladestorm, I'm still trying to figure out. Probably after a CS? I dunno if the loss of damage from MS+OP (with Slaughter) is worth it.

Those parses actually makes me feel pretty positive about stance dancing. The majority of your damage could be done in Zerker stance without changing up the rotation... 'Course actually pulling that off is rather difficult, even on a training dummy, but I think with practice it might be a nice edge.

Kazeyonoma
01-19-2011, 11:35 PM
O_o, yay, even more complicated ways to make arms even attempt to catch fury in dps lol. stance dancing so I can MS/HS/strikes/slam more, and i guess only switch back to battle to overpower? I'm spec'd into bnt, so technically i never have to rend again either...

Kazeyonoma
01-20-2011, 12:03 AM
so i just tried doing some stance dancing, to see what kinda nightmare it'd be, and tos ee the dps changes...

sooo my dps went down about 900dps mostly because it's VERY clunky. it almost feels like you just have enough tiem to change to zerker, hit MS, white swing, HS, then change back to battle, overpower to eat the tfb proc, tclap to refresh rend, then change back to zerker. it's just NON-stop stance dancing, but it also means your rage is constantly at 25, so you never have time to HS as consistently, i had to throttle it back a lot. I think it's more trouble than it's worth. 5% extra damage over battle stance sounds nice, but making overpower so difficult to manage makes it probably not worth it.

and i forgot you can't tclap in zerker so you yeah... can't just tclap from in zerker, silly me.

shiz98
01-20-2011, 01:57 AM
Ahh, I was under the assumption that everybody picked up the 75 rage from stance dancing talent. Yeah, with 25 rage that'd be a total nightmare to maintain.

When I played around with this, I was able to get a couple hundred dps increase. I did it a couple times to be sure it wasn't just getting better RNG and such, and I'm pretty convinced it actually was an increase. I started by just doing targeted stance swaps, something like "Okay, I'm going to hop into Zerker Stance, only pop CS and MS, and then go back." which helped to ease me in. After about 30m of practice I was actually able to hop back and forth at the right time rather fluidly. The key was to prioritize the rotation over the dancing, and not vice-versa.

Doable in a raid situation? I'm not sure. It might be the sort of thing I'd only ever try in a burn-phase given the extra complexity.

Kazeyonoma
01-20-2011, 11:44 AM
yeah, if i had the stance dance talent it'd probably give me a better chance to pull this off (haha 25 rage nightmare indeed!), it's nice to know that the skillcap on arms is gonna be ridiculous, so it gives us something to work on at least. would you say it's worth it to slam in zerker as well?

so it'd look like something like this:
1)heroic throw
2)charge in
3)rend->tfb procs
4)zerker stance-> CS
5)MS
6) battle stance-> OP
7) slam if rage capable
8) zerker stance ->CS if available otherwise MS
9) Slam if rage capable
10) battle stance -> OP
11) refresh rend (either rend or bnt tclap)

rinse repeat?

that'll be rough to manage but I think it's doable, my only fear is all of the stance dancing can possibly push back abilities even though it's on its own separate gcd, i think i ended up pushing less buttons in the same amount of time due to the complexity of it all.

Destruyen
01-20-2011, 11:55 AM
i think making pvp style stance dance macros would cut down alot on button mashing. something like:

#showtooltip Overpower
/cast [stance:2/3] Battle Stance; Overpower
/startattack

but for cs and ms to go from battle to zerker. i already have an op and rend macro to swap to battle stance for those in pvp that i can use to get back into battle.

basically keep the priority list but the macros dance for you based on what ability you hit. tactical mastery would be a must have for this imo. too simple or am i overlooking something cause ive been up for 30 hours?

Kazeyonoma
01-20-2011, 12:25 PM
yeah actually that might work better, the only thing like shiz was saying is that you don't want to ever prioritize dancing over actually hitting the rotation.

so if it's still
rend
cs
ms
op
slam

but we want to cs ms and presumably slam in zerker we'd remacro all of the buttons to be

#showtooltip Rend
/cast [stance:2/3] Battle Stance; Rend
/startattack

#showtooltip Overpower
/cast [stance:2/3] Battle Stance; Overpower
/startattack

#showtooltip Colossus Smash
/cast [stance:1/2] Berserker Stance; Colossus Smash
/startattack

#showtooltip Mortal Strike
/cast [stance:1/2] Berserker Stance; Mortal Strike
/startattack

#showtooltip Slam
/cast [stance:1/2] Berserker Stance; Slam
/startattack

if that all works out tonight I'll try it on the dummy again and see how it does.

Destruyen
01-20-2011, 12:32 PM
that's why i say 2/2 tactical mastery would be a must have if you do the macro route in order to keep 75 rage to fire off cs and ms once you switch to zerker. when you switch to battle you won't need as much rage since op is 5 and rend is 15. it will be a little tighter trying to squeeze bs into the rotation now i think.

i'll prolly be tanking cho'gall tonight but if we get him down early i'll try macros out on al'akir in 25s.

Destruyen
01-20-2011, 01:25 PM
after a couple minutes trying both macros and no macros, using the macros felt alot smoother. i only got rage starved once and that was right after a low rage dance to battle and accidentally fired off hs. as long as you watch rage and ignore slam outside of deadly calm it feels really good. used my usual arms spec but moved the 2 points from drums of war to tactical mastery (http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LGMccRMRurkcbbZh).

plus the people standing next to you at the dummies wondering wtf you are doing changing stances every 2 seconds is lol.

Muffin Man
01-20-2011, 06:48 PM
What about taking points from Incite? I do like my free interrupts. But then again if I understand correctly you can use Inner Rage and Deadly Calm to get quite a lot of HS's off after the patch (I wonder if they'll remove the Deadly Calm unusable during IR restriction with the IR redesign to make it more macro-able even).

Also, if this is the only way to get a buff to Arms damage... I'm pretty sure Blizzard will patch it so that it's less painful considering that they did the same thing for Eclipse and whatever it was Rogues were doing with poisons and weapon swapping. Still, could be fun to try it out (and confuse everyone with our constant emoticons =D).

shiz98
01-21-2011, 09:19 AM
I've been using Slam in Zerker stance to good effect. I've also changed up my rotation a bit to accommodate the dancing more... Slam basically gets a higher priority now, so I'll do something like

OP
Zerker Stance
CS
MS
Slam
TfB Proc
Slam
Battle Stance
OP

Basically, if I can afford to wait longer on an OP proc I'll go ahead and Slam in Zerker stance first. I have enough rage generation that I can do this confidently though, so ymmv if you're not already using Slam as often as possible.

One thing I've been doing with my dancing is basically looking one or two GCDs ahead. So if I just hit OP, for example, I'll estimate the time remaining on another TfB proc, and consider my CS/MS cooldown before I even hop into Zerker stance. It gives me a better feel for when I'll need to dance, and then when I do dance, I can do it directly after an ability so that I'm only ever switching stances when the GCD is tricking. In this case I'd probably hop into battle stance after CS -> MS -> Slam.


Also, if this is the only way to get a buff to Arms damage... I'm pretty sure Blizzard will patch it so that it's less painful considering that they did the same thing for Eclipse and whatever it was Rogues were doing with poisons and weapon swapping.
Given how high the skill cap is on this, and that the maximum damage boost you're likely to get is in the realm of 2.5%, I doubt it will be patched. If Arms damage is too low it'll probably get buffed, and if some people are still busting their asses to get that small DPS increase, well, meh.

Kazeyonoma
01-21-2011, 11:07 AM
you know what does alarm me the most.

that only really you, myself, destruyen, muffin man, and maybe 2 others, have even discussed arms dps since 4.0.1 was released... makes me kinda sad =x

The Hoof
01-21-2011, 12:19 PM
Yeah, I'm waiting to finally pick my spec until after the new changes come in, but since my guild runs 10 mans exclusively, my dps ends up being a large part of the overall picture. While I have always liked Arms, I can't overlook a 20% increase in DPS by going back to Fury as things currently stand. I'm hoping with the new changes, that gap will close.

What's also frustrating to me is how much harder you have to work at to pull dps numbers as Arms that are still lacking compared to Fury.

Oktober
01-21-2011, 02:23 PM
you know what does alarm me the most.

that only really you, myself, destruyen, muffin man, and maybe 2 others, have even discussed arms dps since 4.0.1 was released... makes me kinda sad =x

While you may be the only ones discussing it, there are probably many others, including myself, reading what you're discussing. I try to limit my posting as much as possible, because I feel that I simply don't have the same level of comprehension of the details as some of the regular posters. I for one appreciate the effort you guys are putting in.

Ion
01-21-2011, 02:48 PM
I'd be more apt to jump in if Arms wasn't demonstrably inferior to Fury right now.

I appreciate the effort, but it just seems wasted until (lol) Arms catches up.

Kazeyonoma
01-21-2011, 03:28 PM
well at least that's encouraging, but I haven't found any other heavy discussions almost anywhere, i feel like unless blizzard outright says "arms is for pvp only lolz" they've failed somewhere in the arms tree. Hopefully the new patch will help us more than it looks like.

Kazeyonoma
01-24-2011, 09:23 AM
Whoops accidental thread lock. Reopened.

Destruyen
01-24-2011, 09:24 AM
Whoops accidental thread lock. Reopened.

yeh i was wondering why this was closed...misclicked the banhammer button?

Krenian
01-24-2011, 09:27 AM
You're welcome.

Punchdrunk
01-24-2011, 10:15 AM
you know what does alarm me the most.

that only really you, myself, destruyen, muffin man, and maybe 2 others, have even discussed arms dps since 4.0.1 was released... makes me kinda sad =x


I am normally tanking, but my offspec has always been arms. The reasons are:

1. Arms is traditionally viable for PVE and PVP, so more flexibility.
2. Its easier to get a single 2H weapon than it is to find two 2H weapons
3. I always felt that fury only excelled a higher gear levels, because you have to stack so much hit.

Do you guys agree that as an offspec Arms is still viable.

Nez
01-24-2011, 10:42 AM
I've been running Arms 100% until last last Wednesday when offspec Fury guys started keeping up with me damage wise. LOL Had to respec for Max DPS for raiding. I would love to go back when it can keep up single target wise, I prefer it to fury. ( Maybe I should say "when I can make it keep up with Fury" ) It is still better by far on fights with Adds.

Raiju
01-24-2011, 11:21 AM
I am normally tanking, but my offspec has always been arms. The reasons are:

1. Arms is traditionally viable for PVE and PVP, so more flexibility.
2. Its easier to get a single 2H weapon than it is to find two 2H weapons
3. I always felt that fury only excelled a higher gear levels, because you have to stack so much hit.

Do you guys agree that as an offspec Arms is still viable.

Viability depends on how you define it. Right now a simple respec from arms to fury will make you gain quite a bit of dps, on a similar level of gear. I spent a few days speced as Arms, and had a great time, it is for me much more enjoyable. However a few hours before the raid I had to respec Fury to be competitive. I really hope 4.0.6 will make Arms and Fury closer on dps so I can play Arms without feeling that I am gimping my raid.

Regarding hit and Fury, you don't need a lot of hit to do good dps. The discussion on EJ is pointing to running with low hit.

The Hoof
01-27-2011, 09:16 AM
I've been running Arms 100% until last last Wednesday when offspec Fury guys started keeping up with me damage wise. LOL Had to respec for Max DPS for raiding. I would love to go back when it can keep up single target wise, I prefer it to fury. ( Maybe I should say "when I can make it keep up with Fury" ) It is still better by far on fights with Adds.

I held out as long as I could, but I was really holding back our raid by being Arms from a dps perspective. On Valiona & Theralion just swapping to Fury and doing a little reforging/gemming accounted for a 26% increase in DPS.

woodyman
01-27-2011, 10:21 AM
Ive been doing all the cata hc's as arms OS never using stance dance and using a rotation of
charge> rend > CS > MS >Hs spam (OP whenever it lights up in between)
and been doing 10k+ rarely beaten by much other than feral dps

i thought arms was OP at the moment due to HS damage which is always top on my damage meter?
Am i missing something cos fury must be insane right now....

The Hoof
01-27-2011, 12:11 PM
Well, heroics generally have more trash than raids, and Arms is way stronger on multiples these days over Fury. But for single target dps on raid bosses, Fury is far and away better.

I was pulling about 11.5k on Valiona & Theralion and pulled 14.8k when I changed to Fury. Same gear, just reforged/gemmed slightly differently.

Muffin Man
01-27-2011, 01:59 PM
Well, heroics generally have more trash than raids, and Arms is way stronger on multiples these days over Fury.

It's funny how this ended up huh? After they nerfed AoE damage this expansion, cleave damage is king now. Especially since glyphed Sweeping Strikes is free and Bladestorm is one of the few AoE's that does full damage on everyone.

I haven't actually played in about a month but when I did, I got a lot of, why aren't you Fury? questions. Kind of sad. Hopefully when I get back into the game 4.0.6 will be back out and Arms will be in a more respectable state. I tried Fury in 3.0 for lols right before the 3.1 nerfs and I just *hated* the Bloodsurge mechanic. So please don't make me respec Blizz :p.

marklar
01-27-2011, 02:14 PM
i'm surprised by all the talk of people pulling 20%+ more dps by switching to fury. i was prot main-spec/arms off-spec in wrath and i've switched to arms main-spec/prot off-spec now and i've been really happy with how it's performing. can the people who are claiming such huge increases attach some numbers to that? i.e. i did 8k as arms and 10k as fury, or maybe link a WoL parse?

last night i did ~14k on the BH boss with a blue sword, and that's with being parried 1/2 the fight. a similarly geared fury warrior in the raid did slightly less. every raid so far, i'm competitive with every other class and i can't wait for the PTR buffs to make it live.

i think arms is fine if played correctly.

Kazeyonoma
01-27-2011, 05:19 PM
14k with a blue sword O_O, can you link a parse. I've been pulling 12k or so in 25 man raids but I have Foe Reaver still.

woodyman
01-28-2011, 03:27 AM
My current gearing is 333-346 Gear with Epic hyjal belt and foe reaver
ive got hit to pretty much cap (0.26% chance to miss i think)
and after this i have gemmed and enchant haste/mastery inc haste proc on weapon
i also have haste on a trink and another with haste proc. ilvl 333 and 318 i think

so as u can see its not great gear and it doesnt really go with how people are saying i shud stat at the moment

however what this does do is give me a whole world of rage
i can literally mash HS whenver i feel like it and its fairly easy to fit into my rotaion
by linking in CD's i can keep this up for a pretty long time and have done 11k SINGLE target on HC bosses even with a little movement

Last boss in Shadow fang keep for example where the tank was running the boss up round the stairs i did 9.5K and thats alot of movement

im not sure if im onto something hear but even our guilds raid leader didnt believe the DPS i was pullin as arms in my gear

oh and also i dont use SLAM at all ever

Pek
01-28-2011, 07:22 AM
Hmm, not to discredit the above posts but I too would like to see some parses. Bear in mind heroics do not equal raids but it's the closest thing we have to a live practice run.

I love Arms dps for it's complexity and pace, but unfortunately, stats don't lie. Here is a log of the last Valiona and Theralion fight I dps'd.
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/45rh0zaft6fj0e4d/sum/damageDone/?s=1623&e=1999

Unfortunately Arms is my offspec and I really only get to use it for that fight as I tank everything else. According to stateofdps.com (http://stateofdps.com/#bot) it's not bad but you will find Fury will out do Arms in every fight.

Hopefully the upcoming changes will help us get closer to Fury, as it's a shame that an equally well played Fury warrior will beat an Arms warrior based purely on spec and mechanics. And excuse the fail linking, I'm a fail nerd.

woodyman
01-28-2011, 07:43 AM
I will be going to do aragoth this thursday and there will be a fury warrior in group as well so i will try to collect all the data i can.
with the length of the fight or maybe the level of the boss i may fall flat on my face here, but im confident i can get the results so i guess we will see.
I can appreciate seeing other peoples numbers not adding up to what fury does but then by the sounds of it your all doing everything completly different to me anyway so its not much for me to base it on.

I mean HS with incite is bread and butter for Arms rotation now and yet the OP doesnt even put it in the basic rotation which baffles me

Im not to fancy with addons and logs etc so excuse me if it just ends up being a screen shot of Recount lol

woodyman
01-28-2011, 08:33 AM
If you think about it what im saying is that by chucking slam and stacking haste i have allowed myself to spam HS which accounts for a truck load of damage......now the hard part...proving it

marklar
01-28-2011, 11:26 AM
14k with a blue sword O_O, can you link a parse. I've been pulling 12k or so in 25 man raids but I have Foe Reaver still.

of course:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/zzhax6xev5mq08c3/sum/damageDone/?s=729&e=970

i was using the sword from the tol barad dailes at the time, which is BIS 346 as far as i can tell. notice the i use slam as my filler, not HS. to anyone still clinging to HS spam, you might as well work on the proper rotation now, because with the PTR changes HS spam is going to suck. slam is far better damage/rage, even now.

pek, you did 15k and were 2nd in dps on the fight, but you're using that log to say arms is weak? i think a big part of the reason you'll find WoL skewed to fury is that there are waaaaaaayyy more fury warriors in wow.

Mazar
01-28-2011, 12:04 PM
One thing I noted is there are few weapons that are slower than 3.60. The Tol Barad sword is one, with 3.80, and if you don't still have the badges to boy it, the sword Ozruk drops in Stonecore is similar, if a bit worse being that it has haste instead of expertise, but my dps jumped a good deal switching to if from the Foe Reaper.

marklar
01-28-2011, 02:08 PM
One thing I noted is there are few weapons that are slower than 3.60. The Tol Barad sword is one, with 3.80, and if you don't still have the badges to boy it, the sword Ozruk drops in Stonecore is similar, if a bit worse being that it has haste instead of expertise, but my dps jumped a good deal switching to if from the Foe Reaper.

there's also an axe (forget the location) with identical stats to the TB sword, but slightly faster.

Muffin Man
01-28-2011, 02:25 PM
I mean HS with incite is bread and butter for Arms rotation now and yet the OP doesnt even put it in the basic rotation which baffles me

Well HS is getting nerfed to the ground compared to slam, so the debate is pretty much moot. But Shiz has been really reliable with his number crunching in the past, so I think I'd trust him on this one. But then again, I've been able to maintain a full rotation at 8% haste with a HS about every 9 seconds or so why choose?


last night i did ~14k on the BH boss with a blue sword, and that's with being parried 1/2 the fight. a similarly geared fury warrior in the raid did slightly less. every raid so far, i'm competitive with every other class and i can't wait for the PTR buffs to make it live.

This isn't exactly accurate. Arms does more bleed damage than Fury (unless rend stance dancing is still the way to go for them) and OP can't be parried. So in an equal world, Arms should always do more damage than Fury on this boss.

Plus you got a fair bit luckier than him in the respect that he had 10% of his CS's parried and you had 0%, which is a pretty huge difference in uptime especially considering Fury gets much poorer uptime on CS anyways.

I geared up with a rogue in my guild. I thought I was hot stuff doing 9k on my first heroic boss (Vizier a nice rage filler + tank and spank). But I notice that my dps just didn't scale that well with gear for some reason. Getting Foe Reaver made a difference, but not much compared to my rogue friend.

Pretty soon I was up to 11k on bosses while I noticed he was jumping up to 16k on single target fights, neithr of us had started raiding yet either. This doesn't even consider the pug mages who walk in and just obliterate everything. Granted my experience is limited, and at the moment I'm probably the worst geared heroic capable toon in the guild. But after ignoring the bad pugs, I never felt that Arms dps was capable of doing jaw dropping numbers (our guild Balance Druid also put me to shame).

I'm looking forward to the buffs, it's hard to imagine how much the Lambs change is going to be, from modifying a single special attack to everything... (including melee and mastery). But guestimating, I'm pretty bullish on that change alone.

Has anyone crunched the actual numbers on this one yet? Not that it matters, since we'll all be stacking this buff by default after patch.

shiz98
01-28-2011, 02:43 PM
Has anyone crunched the actual numbers on this one yet? Not that it matters, since we'll all be stacking this buff by default after patch.
I haven't been on the PTR, so what I'm not clear on is whether the buff is consumed when MS/OP/Slam is used, or if it has a constant uptime. I'm assuming the latter, in which case I'd guesstimate we're going to see something like a 20% damage buff. It affects a huge portion of our dps.

Muffin Man
01-28-2011, 03:19 PM
I haven't been on the PTR, so what I'm not clear on is whether the buff is consumed when MS/OP/Slam is used, or if it has a constant uptime. I'm assuming the latter, in which case I'd guesstimate we're going to see something like a 20% damage buff. It affects a huge portion of our dps.

My understanding is that it's the latter as well. And I was wistfully guestimating a buff in that range as well, but didn't want to start any wild rumors =p.

Destruyen
01-28-2011, 06:36 PM
i've been doing a little bit of dabbling on the ptr with arms lately, using the stance dance macros earlier posted. replacing hs with slam and only using hs on battle trance procs seems to be the most dmg in dummy tests for me. lambs stacks 3 times and stays up until it falls off which should be never as long as you are doing the priority right. still a few thousand dps behind fury though...but i could just suck and not know any pro arms tricks others are using.

edit: one trinket they give you on pre-made warriors on ptr is crushing weight which is bad for both specs so not the optimal gear.

Pek
01-28-2011, 06:37 PM
pek, you did 15k and were 2nd in dps on the fight, but you're using that log to say arms is weak? i think a big part of the reason you'll find WoL skewed to fury is that there are waaaaaaayyy more fury warriors in wow.

I posted that log to so that there was some evidence, rather than just saying I did this and that dps. The unfortunate thing is, had I been a fan of Fury, I dare say I would have pulled better numbers.

But you are right. Part of the issue is that there are far more raiding Fury warriors than Arms warriors. I do agree that Arms can be competitive, but in the grand scheme of things, end game Arms just doesn't scale as well as end game Fury.

I just hope the incoming buff allows us to scale better. Though it would be nice to see our dots hit harder, much like how kitty dots do.

woodyman
01-31-2011, 03:08 AM
Ok so after re-reading the patch notes it seems there is not much point in me proving my HS rotation cos its going out the window pretty soon anyway :(
Goin back to slam will be pretty nice anyways as i think for me it will feel a bit more like the old rotation use to be.
Only thing that did annoy me was the cast time on slam when in high movement fights.

if the changes using slam do buff our damage then proving arms is competative should be even easier.
im still goin to keep my haste heavy setup tho, although with slam spam only costing 15 rage as opposed to HS 30 it should be easier for me to maintain a high amount of rage

my only concern is that will dumping all this extra rage into a now weak HS be less beneficial than trading my haste for another stat.

One thing that is annoying me is that im just moving into raiding with my guild and my rotation stats and everything else is totally up in the air at the moment and im reluctant to think anyone has really hit the nail on the head yet.

still its nice that everyone seems to be working towards it
sorry i havnt come up with any hard evidence yet and i dont want people to think im just doing the usual throwing numbers about rubbish.
ill get to work on some more clinical tests when the patch goes live
any ideas on how soon that will be?

marklar
01-31-2011, 01:41 PM
Only thing that did annoy me was the cast time on slam when in high movement fights.


you can cast slam while moving - methinks you've not been keeping up with the changes :)

woodyman
02-01-2011, 05:28 AM
ah yeh guess not sorry ive not used slam since god knows when so i just remember it being really annoying lol.
im currently prepping up a spread sheet to help me do some clinical tests of certain abilities and stats and rotations once the patch goes live