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swollenpickles
01-18-2011, 07:49 PM
One of it's specs is at the top of the charts and the other two are so far down the bottom that Bears and Prot Warriors are higher up the list:

State of DPS 10 man stats: http://tinyurl.com/6kkuzp9

Maybe it's just me but I think Hunters could use a little attention. IMHO no pure DPS class should have any of it's specs performing worse than a tanking spec, and there shouldn't be such a massive different between a pure's top performing spec and lowest performing spec.

Are hunters the most broken class at the moment?

Murderdoll
01-18-2011, 07:58 PM
I am not familar with Hunters, but would one tree be seen as "The PVP Tree" and "The Leveling Tree"?

Loganisis
01-18-2011, 08:21 PM
One of it's specs is at the top of the charts and the other two are so far down the bottom that Bears and Prot Warriors are higher up the list:

State of DPS 10 man stats: http://tinyurl.com/6kkuzp9

Maybe it's just me but I think Hunters could use a little attention. IMHO no pure DPS class should have any of it's specs performing worse than a tanking spec, and there shouldn't be such a massive different between a pure's top performing spec and lowest performing spec.

Are hunters the most broken class at the moment?

Wow. In a word "no". Are the MM and BM specs poorly designed at the moment - sure looks like it. Is Surv maybe a little too good? Possibly.

There is something to be said for a DPS Spec being poor when tank specs have better DPS across the board.

What is up with the sudden influx of "pure" justifying QQ about a spec? DPS is DPS is DPS. If a DPS spec is flawed, the spec is flawed. I don't see how the entire Hunter class are broken when Surv is leading the charts.

Fetzie
01-18-2011, 08:27 PM
Just be glad you HAVE a working dps specc, unlike paladins :)

Chewy
01-18-2011, 08:46 PM
at least your not a warrior.. i'd gladly be a hunter over a POS fury warrior right now..

swollenpickles
01-18-2011, 08:46 PM
If a class has 3 DPS specs, and one of those specs is 10K above the other 2 (that sit behind 2 other classes tanking specs) that says broken to me. The class is flawed when it performs one function but varies so widely in how it performs across specs. It says to me that Blizz still haven't figured out how to balance the class. Surely their testing would have picked up such a wide discrepancy before it all went live.
No doubt the next patch will see Survival slide down the charts a little.

Maybe focus just lends itself better to the Survival Spec than the other two? I really don't know, but like I said, when a class has three specs designed to fulfil the one role, and there is such a glaring difference between them, something is a tad broken.

It's not really a matter of pure vs hybrid, if the difference between enhancement and elemental specs for shaman was as wide I'd say the same thing. I do think though that pure dps classes are far more susceptible to the nerf/buff cycle. You can be the first choice DPS one patch and well down the invite list for the next.

And yeah I know it could be worse, I could be playing a Ret Pally at the moment. But on my Pally I tank and heal, because the DPS output was rubbish. I can always switch back to Ret when the nerf/buff cycle fixes itself.

swollenpickles
01-18-2011, 08:48 PM
at least your not a warrior.. i'd gladly be a hunter over a POS fury warrior right now..

You could always switch to Prot spec, get instant queues and watch the MM and BM hunter tears as you pass them on recount ;)

Tjomek
01-18-2011, 11:03 PM
And yeah I know it could be worse, I could be playing a Ret Pally at the moment. But on my Pally I tank and heal, because the DPS output was rubbish. I can always switch back to Ret when the nerf/buff cycle fixes itself.



if this is true for your pally why not use it on your hunter? i dont understand the point of this thread, you have a leading dps spec, u wanne dps? spec it.

Chewy
01-18-2011, 11:23 PM
You could always switch to Prot spec, get instant queues and watch the MM and BM hunter tears as you pass them on recount ;)

=[ i'm a blood elf warrior. blood elf as tank looks wussy. haha

on a more serious note. bm and mm are more of a leveling build in my eyes. while mm should be a dps spec, it definetly needs to be worked on and i'm sure that's something blizz has been aware of. as of bm, it's not meant for you to be awed by huge numbers. you just want the monsters your fighting to stay off of you at all times. your not gonna see a lvl 85 bm running heroics or arena's. all in all, hunters are not the worst of us all right now. i'd have to go with warriors.. BIG TIME..

swollenpickles
01-19-2011, 02:47 PM
if this is true for your pally why not use it on your hunter? i dont understand the point of this thread, you have a leading dps spec, u wanne dps? spec it.

The way hunters are, any of the three specs could be seen as a leveling build (with different glyphs its easy to keep your pet up long enough to kill stuff no matter what spec you're in). Basically at the moment the number one PvE spec is also the number one PvP spec and number one leveling spec for the class, making the other two specs useless. If that one spec gets nerfed (which it will) then your left with a class that's fairly toothless and no secondary role to fall back on.
Before Cataclysm everything coming out of Blizz HQ was 'trust us, it's balanced around 85', but this doesn't seem balanced at all.

Errvalunia
01-19-2011, 10:14 PM
If you think you need the top DPS because you're a pure class... go back to vanilla.

It's not so much a problem that two of the hunter specs are close to the bottom of the totem pole as it is a problem that they're CLOSER in DPS to tanking specs, and doing HALF the DPS of the ones towards the top.

SOMEBODY has to be on the bottom and on the top and in the middle; that's just the way it is. But having one DPS spec pulling 50-60% of another DPS spec on a pure DPS race fight... you'd just be completely gimping yourself and your raid, and that's not cool to force people to do, choosing between a playstyle they like and pulling their weight.

(The most useful fight to look at, I think, is Argaloth, which is a pretty straight-foward DPS race without too many extra mechanics for one DPSer or another to worry about)

Ollin
01-20-2011, 12:40 PM
If you think you need the top DPS because you're a pure class... go back to vanilla.

It's not so much a problem that two of the hunter specs are close to the bottom of the totem pole as it is a problem that they're CLOSER in DPS to tanking specs, and doing HALF the DPS of the ones towards the top.

SOMEBODY has to be on the bottom and on the top and in the middle; that's just the way it is. But having one DPS spec pulling 50-60% of another DPS spec on a pure DPS race fight... you'd just be completely gimping yourself and your raid, and that's not cool to force people to do, choosing between a playstyle they like and pulling their weight.

(The most useful fight to look at, I think, is Argaloth, which is a pretty straight-foward DPS race without too many extra mechanics for one DPSer or another to worry about)

It's less "pure dps should do more dps" and more "pure dps should have multiple viable specs just like hybrids.

Presently, pures are getting treated the same way hybrids are where specs are concerned: If they've got one viable spec, the rest of their dps specs automatically become a low priority.

The problem is that where pure dps classes are concerned, they can only dps which means that hybrids classes that can fill more than one role are receiving 2-4 times the developer attention because they need a viable spec for every role they can perform.

It's not a "this class is broken" problem so much as just rubbing a lot of pure players the wrong way.

It's disheartening to see paladins and druids individually get more developer attention than mages, warlocks, hunters, and rogues combined.

Theotherone
01-20-2011, 12:58 PM
Hunters are being addressed in the next patch - nerf to Survival and a bit of a buff to MM and BM.

Lieuluke
02-02-2011, 09:17 PM
...all in all, hunters are not the worst of us all right now. i'd have to go with warriors.. BIG TIME..

Warriors are no where near being the worst class right now. I play fury too and am always competing with survival hunters for #1 on the meter. If you're not pulling at least 14k, you should do more research about your class, instead of qq'ing in hopes of getting a buff in the next patch.

Predakhan
02-04-2011, 09:41 AM
Warriors are no where near being the worst class right now. I play fury too and am always competing with survival hunters for #1 on the meter. If you're not pulling at least 14k, you should do more research about your class, instead of qq'ing in hopes of getting a buff in the next patch.

So what you do in your raid is proof that across the board everything is peachy?? Maybe your hunters are just not very good if you are competing for the top spot with 14k dps.

etm_conely
02-04-2011, 08:36 PM
Top dps on fights most of the time is Rogue, hunter, warrior, mage, shaman. At least in my group. I'm the warrior and the dps does depend on the fight.

Rogue and hunter are usually still about 4000 dps higher then anyone else in doing normal raids so not heroics yet but we should be getting to those soon.

Most of the dps is still being fine tuned so I wouldn't worry to much about the amount of dps you are putting out. If you do what you are supposed to do then your dps total shouldn't matter.

Fetzie
02-04-2011, 08:41 PM
So what you do in your raid is proof that across the board everything is peachy?? Maybe your hunters are just not very good if you are competing for the top spot with 14k dps.

That isn't what he said. He said that regardless of class if you are not above 14k you need to go and read up, not that he is doing 14k and keeping up with SV hunters by doing so :)



It's disheartening to see paladins and druids individually get more developer attention than mages, warlocks, hunters, and rogues combined.

I remember a blue post saying that they set the procc chance of the retribution mastery to 100% on an internal build and it still did not perform as well as they had hoped, therefore they are trying to fix it with a mastery more in line with the others. Also, the patch notes for every class are pretty extensive by now, so I would not say that the devs are ignoring your class' plight.

Kistrix
02-13-2011, 12:21 AM
What about thinking less about your individual performance and more about what you and your spec bring to the raid? Its not always about topping the meters... :)

Though I do see there is a difference to be broken and forced to spec only one way to be of any benefit at all.

sifuedition
02-14-2011, 05:56 AM
My guild has a bm hunter who was doing competitive damage before the patch. Hunters are not as "broken" as some here have made out. If your dps is bad...it's not the class/spec.

Perrian
02-14-2011, 06:35 AM
Obviously it hasn't been updated post 4.0.6. BM and MM got a huge boost in DPS.... in my groups MM and BM are hanging right up there with everyone else now.

sifuedition
02-15-2011, 05:48 AM
Yes, but I said before the patch. The bm is doing especially well now. Ret dps was the only one I saw before the patch really struggle and it was still in the same ballpark as the rest even if it was usually at the bottom of the range.

Having said that, in pug heroics I see every class fail..skill matters again for every class/spec

Meshuggah
02-19-2011, 09:15 AM
Yes, but I said before the patch. The bm is doing especially well now. Ret dps was the only one I saw before the patch really struggle and it was still in the same ballpark as the rest even if it was usually at the bottom of the range.

Having said that, in pug heroics I see every class fail..skill matters again for every class/spec

Well said. It's sad when you look at recount and see 3 lava bursts from an Elemental shaman on a boss fight. Skill and knowing your class is #1.

swollenpickles
02-20-2011, 08:44 PM
In the next hot fix it looks like they are boosting the attack power bonus from aspect of the hawk and reducing the damage of aimed shot. MM definitely got a huge boost in 4.06, but that might drop back a bit again if aimed shot becomes less attractive (I believe that under certain conditions MM hunters were getting best results by using a hard casted aimed shot as the focus dump, which perhaps wasn't what Blizz intended).

I guess the nature of my OP may have been misinterpreted a bit, it wasn't so much a QQ about the numbers themselves or topping recount. It was more about my belief that hunters in general seemed to me to be a bit of a mess. Survival was doing insane damage for very little effort, while the other two specs weren't close to competitive. Sure we can all list examples where we ran with hunter X who dominated Y run while in BM or MM spec but those examples were in the minority. Pre-4.06 hunters technically had 3 DPS specs available to them, but in reality there really wasn't a choice - it was choose survival or you were basically gimping yourself. So when I say 'broken' that's more what I meant.

If your class has 3 specs all designed for DPS then I think that at least 2 of those specs should be capable of roughly equal output dependent on the fight conditions and provided they are played correctly. In my opinion a pure DPS class is broken when it has one viable spec, and 2 other specs that may as well not exist.

Alent
02-20-2011, 09:08 PM
In the next hot fix it looks like they are boosting the attack power bonus from aspect of the hawk and reducing the damage of aimed shot. MM definitely got a huge boost in 4.06, but that might drop back a bit again if aimed shot becomes less attractive (I believe that under certain conditions MM hunters were getting best results by using a hard casted aimed shot as the focus dump, which perhaps wasn't what Blizz intended).

I guess the nature of my OP may have been misinterpreted a bit, it wasn't so much a QQ about the numbers themselves or topping recount. It was more about my belief that hunters in general seemed to me to be a bit of a mess. Survival was doing insane damage for very little effort, while the other two specs weren't close to competitive. Sure we can all list examples where we ran with hunter X who dominated Y run while in BM or MM spec but those examples were in the minority. Pre-4.06 hunters technically had 3 DPS specs available to them, but in reality there really wasn't a choice - it was choose survival or you were basically gimping yourself. So when I say 'broken' that's more what I meant.

If your class has 3 specs all designed for DPS then I think that at least 2 of those specs should be capable of roughly equal output dependent on the fight conditions and provided they are played correctly. In my opinion a pure DPS class is broken when it has one viable spec, and 2 other specs that may as well not exist.

I would say hunters are completely broken, but that has more to do with logging in each day and with absolutely zero gear or buff changes all my shots hit for different amounts of damage. I would settle for being in the middle of the pack as long as it was consistent, and I didn't have to play musical dualspec and respec every so often to get my dps back up where it was before each unannounced "hotfixes."

Phrygian
02-26-2011, 11:03 AM
It seems blizzard is really unsure what to do with all Pure classes right now. Dropping the ball on all 4 in my opinion.

Loganisis
02-28-2011, 06:53 AM
It seems blizzard is really unsure what to do with all Pure classes right now. Dropping the ball on all 4 in my opinion.

All 4 pures are in the top 6 in damage dealing potential.

http://stateofdps.com/

How is that dropping the ball? And really - does it matter to 99% of the players out there that will never reach the max potential of their class so it really is whatever class you enjoy most (and thus play best)? Except for the bleeding edge, DPS is DPS is DPS and fight mechanics determine which classes will make the fight most efficient.

feralminded
03-01-2011, 07:36 AM
All 4 pures are in the top 6 in damage dealing potential.

http://stateofdps.com/

How is that dropping the ball? And really - does it matter to 99% of the players out there that will never reach the max potential of their class so it really is whatever class you enjoy most (and thus play best)? Except for the bleeding edge, DPS is DPS is DPS and fight mechanics determine which classes will make the fight most efficient.

They are dropping the ball in terms of making the pure DPS classes much more than a 1-spec pony. My main is a priest ... I have 3 raid viable specs (4 if you count atonement). My main alt is a warrior, 2 raid-viable specs with 3 ways of playing (SMF vs TG). If I wanted to play my mage it would be 1. If I wanted to play my warlock it would be 1.5. I mean when you look at arcane/frost mages or BM hunters it's pretty silly how bad they are in PvE. I mean arcane is so bad and then you see in a patch note (cost of arcane blast reduce from 6% mana to 4%) ... REALLY BLIZZ? Is that one change going to add 75% DPS to arcane so it can be competitive? All of these "forgotten" specs are really left hanging and leave the people playing those classes with few if any options. My two raiding classes right now have plenty of options ... so many I don't have enough specs really. You would think the pure DPS classes would have options too but they just don't.