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Lore
01-18-2011, 01:08 PM
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Doc309
01-18-2011, 01:45 PM
I am actually glad that you got a ass-ton of crap about that response.
The GM said that he raids with RL friends. The GM seems like he wants to be in a "hard-core" guild. But that is NOT what the guild is/was...
If you are working towards a world first/realm first, ok... but a group of RL friends that raid should be able to accept 3 weeks vacation ESPECIALLY during the X-mas, new-years season.

lostplotman
01-18-2011, 02:10 PM
and yet Doc309 if the others in the guild DONT WANT TO STOP RAIDING, then why shouldn't the GM get 3 new people? Lore isn't saying "EVERY GUILD THAT HAS PEOPLE GO ON VACATION TIME SHOULD BE SHOT AND NEVER RETURN TO THE GAME THEREFORE GET MORE PEOPLE" he is saying that to progress in the best possible way pugging people is not that acceptable for a group that wishes to progress. and i think i am still agreeing with lore on his analasys of the question. seems like a hard core guild to me, they want to progress in the raiding scene and also 3 weeks off for a hard core raider is almost catastrophic. lets say he DIDNT get new ppl and 2 more didnt show up for a week. would YOU attempt to 5 man the trons? because i can speak from experience, i have been in the hard core groups and more casual ones too. in the more casual groups you need more people to cover the "i cant be stuffed turning up" yet hard core has more strict rules to it.

Knighterrant81
01-18-2011, 02:11 PM
We have had similar problems in our guild as well. We've had some folks who log in late, and get very upset when we fill the raid with other people and didn't wait for them to log on. We've also had some folks get in a fit and /gquit because we needed them on Tuesday night, but then they got sat on Friday night.

We've always operated on the assumption that raid slots are going to be rewarded favorably to the punctual, and that players should save their lockouts on progression content for guild runs, and that everyone should plan on sitting out for fights so that everyone gets a chance to participate (if they are up to snuff as players, which is a whole different issue).

Basically, the guild and the raid doesn't revolve around you. Anyone and everyone is replacable. It is in the guild's best interest to have 13 or 14 (for a 10 man) raiders showing up every night, and rotate them in and out, so that people *can* take a vacation, or perhaps need to sit out because of bad connections or whatever. Feel free to take vacations whenever you like, but the raid leader's responsibility is to make sure raids are put together, not to save spots for people. It is unreasonable to expect the rest of the guild to not raid while someone is on vacation, or to expect that you will automatically get a guaranteed raid spot upon your return. That is being unreasonable to the rest of the guild that showed up those three weeks, and to the people who dropped their old guilds, or even switched servers, to raid with your guild those last three weeks.

Netheras
01-18-2011, 02:31 PM
@Doc
You're also ignoring the fact that they brought those friends together so they would not have to rely on unreliable skill.. and if you aren't there, you aren't exactly contributing, or being someone of reliable skill. It still sounds to me like they didn't really think that they would be replaced, only because they weren't thinking about the other people in the guild. Which is also apparent when they disregarded the fact that those new recruits were there for three weeks contributing and assisting in raid progression when they were not, giving them the same amount of "right" to be in the raid spots.

The difference is that the GL knew those people. He thought they would understand, and when they didn't, it seemed messy. Really it was just those three people feeling entitled to something that, technically they earned by wanting to do it, but not by actually doing anything. While it sucks that they were replaced, they could easily have rotated themselves in (new people understand, old people accept) instead of putting unnecessary pressure on their GL (basically punishing him by his real life association... who does that?) to kick those new people out. They put stress on the guild twice over? Yeah, I don't really have much sympathy.

Besides, just because you aren't going for world/realm first doesn't mean you can't be hardcore. And a guild of friends doesn't always equal casual.

y9andy
01-18-2011, 02:45 PM
Overall the 3 friends that went on vacation are making a mistake saying "why did u replace us"

if the GL wanted to continue progress on he just has to get 3 new ppl.... i mean i think all 10 RL friends knew that they wanted to go head first on the content... saying "lets take a 3 week break from raiding cus X.Y and Z are going on vacation". That would be stupid.

Like Lore said ... and probably the most important detail ... the Gl has the responsabillity to move on without them and get new ppl if the majority of the guild wants so

swills
01-18-2011, 04:07 PM
Having a 10-man raid force of exactly 10 people seems like a recipe for disaster in the first place to me. I've run a 10-man guild since Karazhan/Zul Aman and we've always had around 13-14 raiders in the raid force. We typically get two people who have to skip any given raid for some reason (exams, work, wives/kids, other IRL stuff) which leaves us with 11-12 raiders on any night. One or two of them sitover that raid (one person never sits multiple raids in a week) and the rest raid.

If I had exactly 10 raiders we'd pretty much never raid for one reason or another. The person who originally contacted Lore should just keep a 14-man raid force and rotate people out on a fair and balanced basis. Everyone will get to raid a bit less than 100% of the time, but at least he'd be prepared for the next time a couple of people decided they were off on vacation for a few weeks.

sib888
01-18-2011, 07:48 PM
Yes, Lore. 6+3 = 10. But only in a base 9 system.

Murderdoll
01-18-2011, 07:52 PM
We had a very similar situation towards the middle of Wrath, we took in 3 recruits who were all friends (big mistake let me tell you). They took a break, they said they would be back in a few weeks and I went ahead and replaced them. They returned some weeks later and wanted their raid spot back. When you are running a 10 or 25 man raid, as a raid leader you cannot say to 7 or 22 people "Hey for the next 3 weeks were not raiding". Id rather make 3 people unhappy rather than X amount of people unhappy. In times where people go missing, its all about how to manage who is left, keep them happy and boost your numbers.

If you stop raiding, you get people who to progress, finding other avenues to fulfill their desires. Before you know it, half of your raid has up and left to another guild.

I personally wouldve recruited those 3 people, telling them based on performance they may not have a spot in 3 weeks time. I would be trying my best to keep the extra people satisfied with the guild in the event someone is sick, someone is busy etc etc because you never know when you will have to sub one in.

How to keep them satisfied is hard. If you have the means to do so, perhaps set up an alt run.

This situation is more difficult than it otherwise usually would be, if you raid with friends, you really need to balance in game and real life consequences.

Fetzie
01-18-2011, 08:21 PM
And this is why you have a roster that is about a third bigger than your raid size (i.e. one replacement for each role).

so 13-15 people for a ten man raid, 32-35 for a 25 man raid.

AMCope
01-18-2011, 08:46 PM
http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a458/shakko85/MEMEs/LoreMadHatz.jpg

Seriously tho. Nice hat.

Cindorella
01-18-2011, 11:43 PM
I've always agreed with lore to this question, what he says makes alot of sense , it's not that easy to try and help a guild he has never played with :O

Guess Mr. Feralion should have recruited 3 pugs to join him for 3 weeks and then told 'em to fuck off.

Nunes
01-19-2011, 03:48 AM
I'm rather surprised that you had so many people flip out regarding your response.

Scottpoet
01-19-2011, 04:27 AM
Lore is hardcore, sure he could take 10 of 10 people into a raid, but that isn't challenging enough for him. Which is why he rolls 10man content with 9 people.

Fetzie
01-19-2011, 04:37 AM
Lore is hardcore, sure he could take 10 of 10 people into a raid, but that isn't challenging enough for him. Which is why he rolls 10man content with 9 people.

Practicing for when they take someone along who is paying for the achievement :)

Uranos7
01-19-2011, 05:58 AM
If you stop raiding, you get people who to progress, finding other avenues to fulfill their desires. Before you know it, half of your raid has up and left to another guild.

I agree and have seen this happen.:eek:


I personally would've recruited those 3 people, telling them based on performance they may not have a spot in 3 weeks time. I would be trying my best to keep the extra people satisfied with the guild in the event someone is sick, someone is busy etc etc because you never know when you will have to sub one in.


Exactly what I would have done; although letting them know the position may be temporary would have made recruiting more difficult.:rolleyes:

Uranos7
01-19-2011, 06:01 AM
Now instead of a hobbit he looks like a Leprechan. :D

Scottpoet
01-19-2011, 08:25 AM
Wait it's retribution paladin math:

6 + 3 + 0 (1 ret pally) = 10

I think I understand now.

Gnaurl
01-19-2011, 08:52 AM
So does anyone here that has played more than a month believe that the other 6 + 1 people would have waited around for the 3 weeks? So when the 3 got back, you would be recruiting 5+1 and have waited three weeks, instead of recruiting 3 and moving on.

Perfect response the first time.

Gnaurl

Mwawka
01-19-2011, 09:48 AM
There are a lot of assumptions going on about the terms that this guild was formed under. We don't know exactly what the agreement was on how raiding would progress and how vacations and absences were to be handled. Given that it was so early in the expansion, it probably would have been better if the guild leader had looked for players to fill in who were waiting for their own guilds to be ready to raid. I know my guild, which is more casual, had about 5 players ready to go within a week of the xpac, but due to holidays and such, we just started raiding last week. I'm sure every server had a lot of players in this situation and the guild leader should have probably tapped into that player base in this situation. He probably could have been honest with the subs about their role and still found three people to fill the spots for 3 weeks.

lostplotman
01-19-2011, 12:29 PM
So does anyone here that has played more than a month believe that the other 6 + 1 people would have waited around for the 3 weeks? So when the 3 got back, you would be recruiting 5+1 and have waited three weeks, instead of recruiting 3 and moving on.

Perfect response the first time.

Gnaurl

in short i dont think anyone that is focused on progression would do this. its not that smart to believe that if u have 10 people that every single week those same 10 will turn up. the 3 that took holidays should suck it up and get used to the logics of the GL as he has the same ideals that i as GL also share. if i had the same thing happen i would have looked for 3 more ppl to fill spots but at the same time i have an excess as it is so i might not have needed it.

feralminded
01-19-2011, 12:38 PM
My 10 man is decently hardcore and we have a 13 person roster. Works out great as people can take days off and we can manage different configurations for optimization on certain bosses. In theory it slows our progression slightly but in practice we never miss a raid and people can take personal breaks if need be and everything works out.

Trahvolta
01-19-2011, 01:29 PM
I'm rather surprised that you had so many people flip out regarding your response.
People flip out and blow things out of proportion anytime someone even mentions wanting to have strict policies when it comes to raiding. And, people often lie about how much they actually play this game. When in reality many people who bash the "Elitist, no life having" players, play just as much. I think there's more to this story though. 3 people needed the exact amount of time off for vacation? I doubt it. Yes, it's the holidays, but I think it was more of a case one person needing 3 weeks off, and the other 2 following suite. Sometimes people like putting GM's or friends between a rock and a hard place. And I think that's what happened here. RL friends or not. If they were even remotely cool friends, they would be more than happy to work something out and not give the GM "It's us or them" ultimatum. Now, that is bullshit. The GM is obviously trying to find a solution. The other 3 are not.

Secretofthedark
01-19-2011, 02:58 PM
I feel bad for Lore getting so much abuse on this : /

I totally agree with him on many accounts. But what I agree mostly with him is that it is impossible to make judgements on how a guild is run from the outside. It doesn't matter what you personally feel as an outsider, what matters is what's important to that guild at that time. If this guildmaster wants progression and raiding as a priority then that is his decision, and the way he chooses to resolve the issue when people go away is his decision. You can't judge that, you don't have the right if your not a guild member yourself.

Besides, if you listen the root of this question is not actually a WoW related one. He's not asking, " oh shit what should I do when people go on vacation?"
He's asking, "How do I strike a balance between being a good real life friend and running my guild how I want to?"

Or to put it differently:

You are the boss of a big company, 2 people apply for one job, one is your close friend, you know sometimes he can be unreliable and may not always be there when you need him; but he is your friend and you want to keep that friendship and respect him. The other person is a stranger, but he (or she) has a perfect CV, fulfils the roles perfectly, would be an asset to your company and is reliable.

Which one do you hire?

So big kudos to Lore ( who i think is adorable btw :P) for answering this in a fair and impartial way, that many of you seem unable to grasp.

Mangea
01-19-2011, 04:37 PM
Regardless of what kind of guild it is, one of the best things a GM can do when building their guild and/or raid group is to have a clear and sensible picture of what the guild and/or raid group is going to be. Then be open and clear about what that picture is to the members from the very beginning. This way everyone is on the same page and has the same expectations of the guild and/or raid group. It avoids a lot of problems, like when people take time off. If everyone knows ahead of time what's going to happen if a member takes some time off, then no one is surprised when the GM does what s/he said s/he would do. Call it the Three Cs; Clarity, Communication, Consistency.

Dojoartist
01-20-2011, 06:00 AM
It's been pointed out already but, having only 10 people who are your hardcore raiders is poor planning flat out. No football team has just 11 players.

In my guild, if you are late, you get replaced by either pug or guildie. That's just how it is and everyone understands that. Also, a raid spot is somewhat of a privilege (especially in a large guild) and no one person (or 3 in this case) is above what's good for the guild overall.

I think people forgot the fact that Lore was answering Phallion's question for Phallion's guild...not anyone else's.

KASKADE
01-20-2011, 08:03 AM
Everything Lore said in the video was right.
My opinion from being in a semi-hardcore 25man 11/12 heroic ICC raiding guild during WOTLK:
1. Attendance is the most important quality for a raider (performance is a very close second). 3 weeks is simply too long to expect your raid spot to be waiting for you when you get back. Personally, I would expect to have to re-earn it in another 3 weeks with perfect attendance and performance etc.
2. You guys are idiots with your 6+3=/=10. He is one of the raiders as the GM.
6 people to please + ONE GM!!!!!! (making a tough decision) + 3 flakes who ditched out = 10 raiders, geniuses.

Angira
01-20-2011, 09:33 AM
I found the +- good solution to a semi-hardcore raiding guild (10) that I'm atm.
Actually, you can have 10 people who have raiding spot covered. But you forget, that in most cases there're other ranks in a guild: if someone has to do some RL stuff (3 weeks being too much, imo, but..), we ask a 'Social'-ranked person to come. Generally they're people who came into same guild with raiding friend, or just those who dont like being pressed around for tight schedules. If he's geared enough, and we inform him which bosses we plan to kill on that day, their performane isn't as bad as your average PuGer. Also, on my realm, there're quite a few people who're very good geared, but are in 'Social' guilds, so they eagerly come to our aid. Just make right connections, eh?
And last source of replacements are alts of your hardcore raiding friends from other guild. Usually they stay online quite alot, and unless they're busy with something else, they can relog and give us a hand in raiding (Our raiding time dont interfere with their mains).
So yes, it is possible to NOT recruit 3 extra people, just look around )). Hopefully this response helps you)

Doc309
01-20-2011, 11:14 AM
Really it all depends...
Mostly it depends on the communication within the guild prior to the three weeks X-mas new-years break.
Was the GL clear that he wanted to be a progression guild, when he recruited RL friends?
Were the three players up front about taking a break?
( imagine college students going home for winter break, or soldiers on leave... )
Hopefully the 3 players in question were honest and proactive regarding the 3 week break. something like "/g Hey guys, i need to take a three week break over the holidays, its the first chance i get to see my family in X numbers of months... I will be back on ..." or something similar.
Hopefully the GL or an officer would see and say "well, we're working on progression so, I understand your need for a break, but we can not guarantee you will have a raid spot when you get back..."
Hopefully the guild leadership looked for substitutes within the guild and from pugs.
Hopefully when the guild recruited three others they they mentioned that their 10 man raiding team might have a roster of 13 in 3 weeks.
Hopefully the guild leadership was conscientious about subbing people in and out of raids.
We can not say if any of this happened.
most of the back and forth on this thread, ( Mine included ) is based on assumptions....
but clear communication would have lead to much less drama...

Prinz
01-20-2011, 05:28 PM
I think the next PST will be full of maths questions :D

Shadster
01-20-2011, 07:27 PM
I agree with you 100% lore. 3 weeks is a long time for people to go without raiding. Like you said, it seems like a hardercore guild and when you have 3 of your core raiders leave, that means you aren't going to be raiding for that long and if your chasing realm firsts thats not acceptable. Yes, they might be your friends but they are taking personal time and not caring about the guild(not saying it's wrong, just saying you can't be mad at the other people who aren't on vacanation not enjoy their time while you are off enjoying yourself).

Farleyxt
01-21-2011, 12:43 PM
I am a memebr of a large social raiding guild....I know oxy moronic it is! But we have done well in WotLK content and are in the starts of Cata raiding. We run multiple 10man raids on diffrent nights of the week. I am a higher ranking officer and I personally have to take long breaks for military obligations. I understand that my guld needs to progresses and I have to play catch up gear wise for a week or so sometimes. During the last two months before the Xpack launched we were running ICC 10 manheroic and regs for alts and we have such a large guild even if someone is away for the night we can usually fill a spot even though it may require a little startegy change. If you have just 10 people raiding in your guild I see that as a recipe for disaster....its not fair to have to either take a break from raiding because one person is afk for RL, it can be even more daunting to have to totally reschedule raids because of work changes. If someone has to meet RL obligations it sux for everyone but sometimes the good of the whole simply has to outweigh personal good and Epeen growth.

Nahela
01-23-2011, 05:46 AM
As a guild leader I want to say I 100% support your initial response and this one. I also honestly feel that anybody that disagrees with this so harshly has never been in a serious MMO guild leadership position.