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View Full Version : Tanking Prot Warr MT. What can I do better?



Entity404
01-15-2011, 02:30 PM
Hi,

I started tanking with my warrior during WotLK. It was something I always wanted to try, and I've come to really enjoy it.

Since Cata, I spent my time off doing everything possible to get geared so I could be the tank in my guild's first raids, and I suceeded.. We downed Magmaw and Omnitron last week, and it was really an awesome raid.

Still, I feel like I'm too squishy. Magmaw dished out tons of damage and Halfus is destroying me with the stacking debuff, even with switching (I think he will go down soon though. Heroics are still giving me problems when I go with people who don't CC or use their abilities to do anything besides DPS. Running with guildmates and people on vent remains a nearly flawless run unless dps is too low on fights like Erudax.

I was hoping you more seasoned tanks could give me some advice on my character. My gear seems really good. I've been exalted with all the cata reps for quite a while now, and tried to get the best heroic gear in every other non epic slot.

I've been reading a lot about hit and expertise. I can't seem to find a definitive answer. I've used gems and a weapon chain to get my hit to where my shield bash and taunt won't miss, and I've tried to keep my expertise at least near dodge cap. These bug me the most, because I'm unsure if I should be putting more into mastery or dodge/parry and losing some of my threat and dps by sacraficing expertise. I only have threat problems initially, before rend starts ticking and I get a couple of claps and waves off.

Should I be enchanting my weapon with something else? Avoid using hit/exp gems? Or am I okay?

Also, my current nagging question right now is what to use my valor points on. I have about 1800. Should I get the epic gloves or ring, or should I keep saving up for the legs?

Thanks for taking time to read this :)

TL;DR: Look at my char. Can I improve upon anything?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/drakthul/tonk/simple

aerisnae
01-15-2011, 03:06 PM
I can't help noticing your hit and expertise aren't capped.
Stamina ain't all that matters now for Tanks. No point having high hp if you're going to lose threat or be squishy right?
You gotta hit those caps. Those are the most important criteria for now.
Anyway,
With regards to gemming, i'd go with:
Meta - http://www.wowhead.com/item=52293
Red/Blue - http://www.wowhead.com/item=52221
Yellow/Blue - http://www.wowhead.com/item=52231 OR http://www.wowhead.com/item=52237

For your enchants, it seems pretty fine but personally i'd make some amends such as:
Bracers - http://www.wowhead.com/spell=62256
Weapon - http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74244 OR http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74195
Pants - http://www.wowhead.com/item=56551
Boots - http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74189
Remember to grab the belt buckle: http://www.wowhead.com/item=55054 After that, put in a http://www.wowhead.com/item=52242

When reforging,
Hit > Expertise > Parry/Dodge > Mastery
You should be reforging to dodge/parry over mastery if you have less than 4600 combined avoidance rating (mastery + parry + dodge).
Hit cap is at 8% & Expertise at 26.

For Flasks, i personally like using:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58085
or
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58143 (Since most fights has magic now, it really comes in handy)

For Food buffs, i'd use:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62664 (If you're having difficulties with threat or not expertise capped)
or
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62663 (Basically AWESOME)

Be sure to keep your shield block up whenever it's available, Demo Shout & Thunderclap too.
These skills help alot to minimise damage taken towards you.
With all of these, you should be more or less ready for raids.
For some fights, you may notice yourself taking lots of damage. It usually happens due to:
1. Someone doing something wrong in the raid.
2. Specific boss just more healing-strained for the raid.
3. Fails.

Good Luck,
I hope this comes helpful to you.

SquishyTheTank
01-15-2011, 03:18 PM
Hi,

I started tanking with my warrior during WotLK. It was something I always wanted to try, and I've come to really enjoy it.

Since Cata, I spent my time off doing everything possible to get geared so I could be the tank in my guild's first raids, and I suceeded.. We downed Magmaw and Omnitron last week, and it was really an awesome raid.

Still, I feel like I'm too squishy. Magmaw dished out tons of damage and Halfus is destroying me with the stacking debuff, even with switching (I think he will go down soon though. Heroics are still giving me problems when I go with people who don't CC or use their abilities to do anything besides DPS. Running with guildmates and people on vent remains a nearly flawless run unless dps is too low on fights like Erudax.

I was hoping you more seasoned tanks could give me some advice on my character. My gear seems really good. I've been exalted with all the cata reps for quite a while now, and tried to get the best heroic gear in every other non epic slot.

I've been reading a lot about hit and expertise. I can't seem to find a definitive answer. I've used gems and a weapon chain to get my hit to where my shield bash and taunt won't miss, and I've tried to keep my expertise at least near dodge cap. These bug me the most, because I'm unsure if I should be putting more into mastery or dodge/parry and losing some of my threat and dps by sacraficing expertise. I only have threat problems initially, before rend starts ticking and I get a couple of claps and waves off.

Should I be enchanting my weapon with something else? Avoid using hit/exp gems? Or am I okay?

Also, my current nagging question right now is what to use my valor points on. I have about 1800. Should I get the epic gloves or ring, or should I keep saving up for the legs?

Thanks for taking time to read this :)

TL;DR: Look at my char. Can I improve upon anything?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/drakthul/tonk/simple


First thing first... Ignore the poster above me (post #2).
The information he is giving is... wrong.

Second, do not worry about hit and expertise. At this point, working on reducing damage intake is what you need to do. With that said,
Mastery > parry > dodge while keeping about 160-170k hp (raid buffed).

Mastery comes before parry and dodge because there aren't any diminishing returns on it and it allows us to stack up to blocking everything fastest. Parry is a little ahead of dodge, because of our hold the line talent. Dont let parry get more then a percent or two ahead of dodge due to diminishing returns though.

SquishyTheTank
01-15-2011, 03:33 PM
First thing first... Ignore the poster above me (post #2).
The information he is giving is... wrong.

Second, do not worry about hit and expertise. At this point, working on reducing damage intake is what you need to do. With that said,
Mastery > parry > dodge while keeping about 160-170k hp (raid buffed).

Mastery comes before parry and dodge because there aren't any diminishing returns on it and it allows us to stack up to blocking everything fastest. Parry is a little ahead of dodge, because of our hold the line talent. Dont let parry get more then a percent or two ahead of dodge due to diminishing returns though.



With regards to gemming, i'd go with:
Meta - http://www.wowhead.com/item=52293
Red/Blue - http://www.wowhead.com/item=52221
Yellow/Blue - http://www.wowhead.com/item=52231 OR http://www.wowhead.com/item=52237Pretty much... no.
Keep the current meta gem you have. Austere (2% armor) is currently better then the eternal (takes you to 31% dmg reduce on block)
When it comes to socket bonuses... some ppl are gemming to get them, and some are ignoring. Pretty much pure mastery gems, using things such as fine ember topaz and pussiant dream emeralds to fill in socket bonuses.


For your enchants, it seems pretty fine but personally i'd make some amends such as:
Bracers - http://www.wowhead.com/spell=62256
Weapon - http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74244 OR http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74195
Pants - http://www.wowhead.com/item=56551
Boots - http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74189
Remember to grab the belt buckle: http://www.wowhead.com/item=55054 After that, put in a http://www.wowhead.com/item=52242Again... not exactly..
Bracers the 50 dodge rating is much better then the stam enchant.
Weapons, pants, boots all seem good.
For belt buckle... def do not want to stack more stam, unless your hitting less then 160k raid buffed.



When reforging,
Hit > Expertise > Parry/Dodge > Mastery
You should be reforging to dodge/parry over mastery if you have less than 4600 combined avoidance rating (mastery + parry + dodge).
Hit cap is at 8% & Expertise at 26.This is completely wrong. You your reforging priority is Mastery > parry > dodge.
Never reforge for expertise, and unless you are having to interupt... never reforge for hit.
Right now, threat is a joke. After the first few seconds of the fight, if you are using your ability priority as you should, you will not have an issue with threat.

What most are doing is reforging every piece of gear to have mastery on it, other then that, reforging dodge into mastery and leaving parry alone. You don't want parry more then a percent or two above dodge due to diminishing returns though. Usually, tanks have in the area of 25% combined dodge/parry after reforging/


For Flasks, i personally like using:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58085
or
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58143 (Since most fights has magic now, it really comes in handy)Nothing wrong with the above. Use the stam flask for most fights, can mix elixers and etc for others.


For Food buffs, i'd use:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62664 (If you're having difficulties with threat or not expertise capped)
or
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62663 (Basically AWESOME)Dont ever use the expertise food buff... either use the second one he linked, or get the parry/stam food buff.


Be sure to keep your shield block up whenever it's available, Demo Shout & Thunderclap too.
These skills help alot to minimise damage taken towards you.
With all of these, you should be more or less ready for raids.
For some fights, you may notice yourself taking lots of damage. It usually happens due to:
1. Someone doing something wrong in the raid.
2. Specific boss just more healing-strained for the raid.
3. Fails.Def do keep up your debuffs. About shield block, either keep it up as much as possible, or rotate it to reduc damage on high dmg intake phases.

SquishyTheTank
01-15-2011, 03:34 PM
Sorry... not sure why it double posted... And am unsure how to delete my first post.

Entity404
01-15-2011, 03:47 PM
Thanks for your replies! I do use the mastery food, I need to fish some more though. I will stack mastery and see how that works out. This is the argument that confuses me, lol. One person says hit, other says mastery. I think I'll re-gem mastery since I have plenty of yellow gems, then see how my hit is on the raid boss dummy. My biggest concern is taunt missing on tank switch, although vigilance on the OT should keep it off CD.

Thanks for the recommendations, I'll try it out :)

Edit: Yes, I keep demo shout and thunderclap up 100% of the time when possible. They make a big difference now with the high digit damage.

Petninja
01-15-2011, 03:50 PM
I'm not sure where the idea to cap expertise came from, but if you aren't having terrible trouble in raids with threat (which if you're doing your rotation right and aren't super outgeared you shouldn't) there's no need for expertise. In short, there's no need for expertise.

Hit is useful if you are running 10 mans and don't have reliable interrupts from your dps, otherwise it's worse than expertise.

Specifics on your character, you might want to reforge some of your dodge to parry. The goal is to keep the two ratings similar to avoid diminishing returns on your ratings. Parry is a little better due to Hold the Line, but unless you're going to work out the math for yourself the general rule of keep your dodge and parry ratings the same will suit you well.

Mastery is a great stat, reforge some of your hit and expertise to it.

It may be a personal preference thing, but Blitz is probably not helping you any in raids/heroics. If you need the starting rage boost that charge is giving, try putting those two points into Booming Voice which then won't require that you charge for your starting rage. Otherwise, I'd say put the points somewhere else. War Academy is probably the easy choice, but if you're finding yourself on interrupt duty all the time maybe Rude Interruption would be good.

Your meta is great, armor is a wonderful stat.

Your shield could probably use the Blocking enchant over the pyrium spike. I've heard some people suggest that they put Titanium Plating on their Shield for the few mobs that do disarm, and put a more useful enchant on their weapon. There is a dodge proc enchant from the Twilight Highlands vendor but I believe it is a little pricey.

Petninja
01-15-2011, 03:58 PM
Thanks for your replies! I do use the mastery food, I need to fish some more though. I will stack mastery and see how that works out. This is the argument that confuses me, lol. One person says hit, other says mastery. I think I'll re-gem mastery since I have plenty of yellow gems, then see how my hit is on the raid boss dummy. My biggest concern is taunt missing on tank switch, although vigilance on the OT should keep it off CD.

Thanks for the recommendations, I'll try it out :)

Edit: Yes, I keep demo shout and thunderclap up 100% of the time when possible. They make a big difference now with the high digit damage.

The whole reason for hit is so that your attacks land. If you're not interrupting and your threat is fine hit doesn't do an awful lot of good for you.

Part of the reason Mastery is so good is because it doesn't have diminishing returns. The other part is that you get more % per point of rating. Stacking mastery you do end up taking a bit more damage, but it comes in much smoother so your healers will actually have an easier time healing you (which will reduce overhealing and conserve their mana). Your goal should be to get to 77.2% total miss+dodge+parry+block. It's not a cap, but once you get there you become unhittable with shield block up (that is, you don't ever take a full damage swing from a boss). Going beyond that is perfectly fine.

SquishyTheTank
01-15-2011, 04:00 PM
Thanks for your replies! I do use the mastery food, I need to fish some more though. I will stack mastery and see how that works out. This is the argument that confuses me, lol. One person says hit, other says mastery. I think I'll re-gem mastery since I have plenty of yellow gems, then see how my hit is on the raid boss dummy. My biggest concern is taunt missing on tank switch, although vigilance on the OT should keep it off CD.

Thanks for the recommendations, I'll try it out :)

Edit: Yes, I keep demo shout and thunderclap up 100% of the time when possible. They make a big difference now with the high digit damage.

Well, unless they have math to back it up... ignore the people who say otherwise. I dont know if you are familiar with EJ, but they have a great post on it all here (http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t110315-cataclysm_protection_warrior/)

Also reading on here (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?73245-Protection-Warrior-Primer-%284.0.3%29) gives some good advice on the basics.


EDIT: Also thought I should point out... Taunt doesnt need hit any longer, so dont worry about that. After 4.0.1, it doesnt miss any more.

Entity404
01-15-2011, 06:00 PM
I didn't know taunt had been changed to never miss.. Awesome!

I will be making changes; thanks everyone :)

Katzazi
01-16-2011, 04:12 AM
A side note on expertise: It had a survival component before 4.0.1. You took it to prevent parry haste. But parry haste is gone. Parry has the same effect as dodge has: One hit not connecting. It does not help you to interrupt, because your oponent cannot dodge or parry while casting, anyway. And I think TC cannot be awoided, too. So expertise is a pure dmg/threat stat now.

Entity404
01-16-2011, 12:19 PM
I did exp cap to prevent parry haste when it was still a factor. I think that's a big part of why losing expertise bothers me.

Anyways, I reforged expertise for parry and dodge for parry so I could close the gap between my dodge and parry values. Regemmed with parry/mastery orange gems where possible. Going to get mending on my weapon and replace shield spike with blocking enchant. I'm already noticing an increase in parry on the raid dummies in org, but I'm hoping this won't be a problem.

Should know after raid Monday if it has helped. I'll try to post a review.

Thanks again.

Saberior
01-17-2011, 02:53 PM
Well, unless they have math to back it up... ignore the people who say otherwise. I dont know if you are familiar with EJ, but they have a great post on it all here (http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t110315-cataclysm_protection_warrior/)

Also reading on here (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?73245-Protection-Warrior-Primer-%284.0.3%29) gives some good advice on the basics.


EDIT: Also thought I should point out... Taunt doesnt need hit any longer, so dont worry about that. After 4.0.1, it doesnt miss any more.

Really? EJ post that you linked here states a completely opposite opinion on expertise/hit then everyone in this post is replying with... nothing more annoying then people who think they know what they are talking about make contradictory statements then other people who think they know what they are talking about... in the end... NONE of you are of any help at all lol

99% of people who give advice are either too complex or too vague... get real, make your reply simple... we're not rocket sientists nor are we idiots... State your numbers as WOW shows them to us... lets see what you have on your character and compare to what we have.

Entity404
01-18-2011, 09:38 AM
Okay, I've done a couple of heroics and Bastion of Twilight with my new gems and reforge.

First thing I noticed was initial threat has become a pain. The misses and dodge/parry on Valiona are pretty bad. Even with misdirect and using shield slam and revenge as I pulled her to the center was not enough to hold threat on the starting dps burst. I had to taunt a couple of times because threat was very shaky for the first few seconds. Once I got threat after that it wasn't really a problem though. DPS were even waiting until the boss was in position before attacking.

Heroics are basically the same story. PUGs are very annoying. Getting a shield slam and/or revenge miss on skull during the pull generally necessitates a taunt.

I'm going to keep my hit/exp enchants and weapon chain. I'll keep the gems and reforges I made for mastery though, and may use expertise food.

Bottom line: My healer told me that I was fine before and not to fix it if it isn't broken. I think I'll go with threat.. At least until someone says I'm too squishy.

Thanks for the advice everyone :) My question has been answered. I hope this helps someone else out there, too.

klausi
01-18-2011, 11:59 AM
For heroics just keep your blues and enchant them with hit/exp, have your purple stuff aligned for raiding. You don't wipe from having your dps wait another 3 seconds until your threat is stabilized at the pull, you die from losing 3-5% avoidance/migitation.


Really? EJ post that you linked here states a completely opposite opinion on expertise/hit then everyone in this post is replying with...
The post is just explaining what is best for threat, they don't recommend going for threat anywhere.

Illidra
01-19-2011, 04:17 AM
Really? EJ post that you linked here states a completely opposite opinion on expertise/hit then everyone in this post is replying with... nothing more annoying then people who think they know what they are talking about make contradictory statements then other people who think they know what they are talking about... in the end... NONE of you are of any help at all lol

99% of people who give advice are either too complex or too vague... get real, make your reply simple... we're not rocket sientists nor are we idiots... State your numbers as WOW shows them to us... lets see what you have on your character and compare to what we have.

1st post wasted on makign yourself look liek a tool.

GJ.

they didnt ANYWHERE say to go for threat stats, they just listed in what order stats improve your threat.

if none of us are any help the door is in the top corner of your screen, click it, i know i won't miss you.