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View Full Version : Tanking why do people say Im a squishy DK Tank



Nogewdz
01-14-2011, 09:44 AM
is it my gear or gems? I know im missing chants but I pvp mainly but have BWD tomorrow and do not want to be soft is there anything i can change gem wise?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/eonar/infumous/simple


please help me out thanks! :confused:


if its not gear.. rotation?

klausi
01-14-2011, 10:29 AM
Just do the avdanced armory gear check yourself:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/eonar/infumous/advanced

Missing 3 enchants, 2 jc gems and a belt buckle. That adds up quickly. But it doesn't determine the the result of a fight greatly. The real solution is not the rotation it's rotating your cooldowns. You've a lot of short cooldowns, 1 minute or below. Do you use them that frequently? Do you hit ds nonstop or wait for your hp to drop? etc

I'd highly recommend having a look at Satorri's guide (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?71144-Cataclysm-Death-Knight-Tanking-Satorri-s-Guide-to-the-Bloody-Future&highlight=satorri) and if anything is still unclear after reading it feel free to ask again.

Prexie
01-14-2011, 11:59 AM
Cooldown usage, Death Strike timing (will change somewhat with 4.0.6 adding the ability to stack absorbs without overriding old ones) and proper gearing are all important.

There is no need to reforge for threat stats currently because of how vengeance works. Threat should not be an issue on the majority of fights.

Use BloodShieldTracker to effectively use your Death Strikes. Understand the effectiveness of each of your cooldowns and when to best utilize them.

Other than that, a WoL parse would really help any serious analysis other than the general advice we can give to every DK tank that comes here.

Sebadoh
01-14-2011, 12:09 PM
There is no need to reforge for threat stats currently because of how vengeance works. Threat should not be an issue on the majority of fights.

Hit and expertise are survival stats for Death Knights if you have decent Mastery.

Nogewdz
01-14-2011, 01:18 PM
Thanks for the input there are some things i still ahve to learn/understand thanks alot and ill look into that mod for blood shield etc

ill look back again for more info. thanks for the link to DK guide i read it as posted on 2008 but must have been updated for cata then . a lot to read but I will get to it.


Again thank you for your time I appreciate it.

Insahnity
01-14-2011, 01:35 PM
A WoL is kind of essential. Need to know things like

-Blade Barrier uptime. Use those blood runes ASAP.
-Deathstrike usage
-Are you getting Scarlet Fever up and Spreading Frost Fever quickly
-Are mobs behind you..? You can't parry behind your back.
-Are you actually avoiding things you should be avoiding (Hoping Ozruk's ground slam isn't being eaten...)

If done right and assuming there's nothing special going on, Outbreak->Pestilence->BB->DS->DS is a good starter.

Selene
01-14-2011, 04:52 PM
Can't Parry or Dodge mobs at your back. Annoys me that mobs can dodge things behind them, yet we can't.

Katzazi
01-15-2011, 06:00 AM
It's not about you personal, but at least in 5 man heroics DKs feel more squishy to heal than other tanks - especially shield tanks. Even when you use your CDs optimal (and you have to do this!) there are periods of time where they are not up or whatever and where you take some big hits in a row. A healer has to change to big heals to save you there. So even when you are not taking any dmg for some time, DKs tend to feel squishy for the healers.

I've only tanked and not healed in raids, but optimizing gear and CDs will be even more important there.

That said, you as a DK you need to use your tools even in 5mans. Other tanks have to do so, too, but they may have less to juggle around. If you don't do so and if you don't wear optimal treated gear, your question is easily answerd: because you are squishy when you don't use your stuff.

Bigbad
01-15-2011, 06:34 AM
I feel i can take bigger groups on my warrior charging in and using shieldblock & shockwave to minimize the damage. On my dk i think the most important part is rotating your heals/cds, if you go DS-DS-7 secs without heals&bloodshield you're doing it wrong. Just rotate DS with runestrike, heartstrike and rune tap.
What surprised me when i tanked on my dk was the insane amount of cds 8 compared to 3 on my warior use them :)

Prexie
01-15-2011, 01:46 PM
Hit and expertise are survival stats for Death Knights if you have decent Mastery.

You have to sacrifice stam, mastery, parry or dodge to reach hit/expertise caps. So you are either lowering effective health, absorb capacity or avoidance to cap what are effectively threat stats.

http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t110102-blood_dk_endgame_tanking_4_x/p5/#post1831494

Also, the difference in average damage taken is ~1% between a tank with no bonus hit or expertise and one who is soft capped. It is NOT necessary at all to push for hit or expertise cap. It is actually an overall decrease in your time-to-live to drop other stats for hit and expertise.

Sebadoh
01-15-2011, 09:53 PM
So one person ran a sim in a vacuum setting, and you're going to take it as gospel truth?

Genuinely curious about this, because all other sources I've read have said that yes, hit and expertise matter for DK tanking.

Selene
01-16-2011, 12:50 AM
So one person ran a sim in a vacuum setting, and you're going to take it as gospel truth?

Genuinely curious about this, because all other sources I've read have said that yes, hit and expertise matter for DK tanking.

It does, Ran Heroic HoO twice. Same gear, same people (same gear for them too). Only difference is I had reforged to get to the hit/exp caps. Did everything the same on the 2nd go, Healer said I was much easier to keep up (because I was connecting with my Death Strikes).

Prexie
01-16-2011, 12:50 PM
So one person ran a sim in a vacuum setting, and you're going to take it as gospel truth?

Genuinely curious about this, because all other sources I've read have said that yes, hit and expertise matter for DK tanking.

If you would rather have anecdotal evidence over simulation and theorycrafting, okay.

Can you name a single raid fight right now that would necessitate every death strike hits when you press it? Chimaeron, arguably the most important self-heal fight, gives you ~5 seconds to get your heal off before the next swing. Bosses are not the one/two shot wonders like Heroic Beasts, HSaurfang, HLK etc. were. You have time on your side.

Check the top progression DK tanks and theorycrafters and see what they've done for hit and expertise.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/illidan/riggnaros/advanced
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/alterac-mountains/Rammy/advanced
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/bloodfeather/wake/advanced

Now, it's hard to place an exact value on hit and expertise. Yes, a perfectly timed DS can be better than having to use another GCD to get it. However, you sacrifice avoidance or EH stats to do so. Hit and expertise are not necessary.

Netheras
01-17-2011, 09:21 AM
I couldn't check Rigg, but the other two are curious examples.. For Rammy, he still has about 18 expertise, and for whatever reason has reforged part of it to crit. He has almost no hit, so that much is true. Wake on the other hand has reforged for some hit from expertise, and has low stats for both. I'm not sure you can just look at people in heroic progression and say things one way or the other, but I would agree that they are looking more to gain effective health and avoidance... though they are focusing on heroic bosses, so I'm not sure that it is all that surprising.

I would say that it isn't that they aren't necessary, but rather that depending on the group/content/coordination etc, those values are less effective for how those encounters play out. Hm.. maybe that is what necessary... is.

Anyway! It is odd to see someone from my server here that I've seen in game.