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Squirrelnut
01-13-2011, 11:45 AM
I am looking for some feedback on what people think the ideal goal is for hit. My understanding of stat priorities is as follows:

Hit to 8% > Expertise to 26 > Str > Hit to 27% > Crit = Haste > Mastery

The real question comes when looking at the 'Hit to 27%' part. When reviewing top world parses I see a LOT of Fury warriors that are really low on hit but that confuses me because rage generation seems to really suffer for me when my hit gets low. Are they just more inconsistent and sometimes pull amazing numbers while other times pull meh numbers due to RNG?

It goes without saying that 8% hit is a requirement but what is the next increment you should reach and then switch over to focusing on other stats? I have heard 19% thrown around a bit, some people seem to think that isn't really required while others think you should go for the 27% hardcap.

I would like to improve my Crit % so that deepwounds, flurry, etc have good up-time but lacking the rage for a good rotation with high HS usage seems like it may cause more harm then good.

Personally I am at:


20.38% hit (17.38% + 3% from precision)
26 expertise
8.23% haste (3.51 and 3.33 swing speed)
14.49% crit

I would love to dump some hit and possibly some haste to bring my Crit up around 20% but I don't know if that would be beneficial or not. Interested in all thoughts on the subject.

shiz98
01-13-2011, 12:41 PM
The inherent assumption when people recommend high hit is that the DPS gained by the rage generation (more hit -> more rage -> more ability usage) is greater than the DPS gained from other stats. Personally I wouldn't buy this argument without seeing numbers supporting it (I also have the benefit of not playing Fury, so I haven't had to look -- someone may have very well proven this already :P).

Food for thought: rage is less effective the more of it you're generating. Different abilities have different rage efficiency; if you're playing in a rage-limited environment (you are), to maximize your DPS you should optimize your ability usage so that the highest damage per rage ability sees the most use (you are). Each additional point of rage you generate is therefore less effective than the previous one, because you're just adding more usage to abilities with a lower damage per rage ratio.

Squirrelnut
01-13-2011, 01:15 PM
Interesting food for thought... however it still doesn't really provide much feedback on increments of hit to shoot for. I suppose the ideal scenario would be someone to pull some math out regarding rage gen / weapon speed / haste / RB, BT, HS usage and possibly even draw some graphs of the crossover point where the benefit of hit is surpassed by the damage gain from other stats such as Crit. Would have to account for the aspects of that damage gain such as flurry, deep wounds, etc.

Sadly I don't plan on doing that so if no one else does I may just toy with different values and go for the "guess-and-check" approach haha

Symph
01-13-2011, 01:25 PM
Hit to 8% > Expertise to 26 > Str > Hit to 27% > Crit = Haste > Mastery
Crit is a good ways better than haste. Not only does crit increase rage gen (just not as much as haste), but it's more effective DPS than haste. Other than that, you're correct.


The real question comes when looking at the 'Hit to 27%' part. When reviewing top world parses I see a LOT of Fury warriors that are really low on hit but that confuses me because rage generation seems to really suffer for me when my hit gets low. Are they just more inconsistent and sometimes pull amazing numbers while other times pull meh numbers due to RNG?
Can you link some of these parses? Last I checked, the top ranked fury warriors were reforging into hit. If you do find a warrior that's near the top and he has low hit, analyze the parse or link it so I can take a look at it. I'm willing to bet it's just RNG. That's the problem with how rage regen works. Even if you have low hit, you can RNG your way to high numbers if you don't miss as much as you're supposed to or you end up with more crits than you should (resulting in higher flurry (making rage regen not as much of an issue) and incite uptime). It also kind of sucks to analyze the parses because there's other RNG like getting a string of crits/non misses during a CS, etc.


The inherent assumption when people recommend high hit is that the DPS gained by the rage generation (more hit -> more rage -> more ability usage) is greater than the DPS gained from other stats. Personally I wouldn't buy this argument without seeing numbers supporting it (I also have the benefit of not playing Fury, so I haven't had to look -- someone may have very well proven this already :P).

Food for thought: rage is less effective the more of it you're generating. Different abilities have different rage efficiency; if you're playing in a rage-limited environment (you are), to maximize your DPS you should optimize your ability usage so that the highest damage per rage ability sees the most use (you are). Each additional point of rage you generate is therefore less effective than the previous one, because you're just adding more usage to abilities with a lower damage per rage ratio.
There are numbers to support it floating around on a forum somewhere (can't find it atm), though I don't think they're on Tankspot. It shows how much of a % increase it would be if you stacked crit (considering flurry uptime, deep wounds damage, extra damage from attacks, and the loss of HSF). But the math showing how much more of a benefit hit outweighed it (though surprisingly not by much). Like I sort of touched on above, RNG plays a huge factor. While crit may be very slightly below hit, if you're low on hit you're gambling with your rage. Hit will always produce more consistent and dependable rage and damage.

Also I disagree about how you say rage is less effective the more of it you're generating. Yes different abilities have different rage efficiencies, but more rage will always mean more damage. Just because you're using abilities with a lower damage per rage ratio, doesn't make rage any less valuable as you get more. As long as you have enough rage to keep BT and RB on cooldown, and you have excess rage to HS, you're just going to keep increasing your DPS. I don't see where you're going with there being some kind of DR on the effect of rage generation. Heroic strike may be less DPR but it has 15% more crit from Incite which makes it have a higher chance to proc flurry (yay more rage). As I mentioned before, as long as you keep BT and RB on cooldown, more rage for more heroic strikes is always going to a linear dps increase. Therefore the DPS effect of generating more rage scales linearly.

Unless I'm completely misunderstanding you, feel free to correct me.

Quick edit because I forgot something: I don't think people should shoot for 27% hit until near the end of an expac where it's incredibly easy to do, and even if you do reforge for it you'll still have loads of other stats due to high ilevel. In current gear, try to get as much hit as possible. Even in full BiS, with everything reforged, you're gonna have around 21% hit. In mid-tier gear (meaning like the next raid or maybe the one after that), I can completely see people getting to comfortable hit levels (such as around 20-21%) and reforging the rest into crit, depending on how they itemize the new gear. This is all pure speculation though, we won't know until we actually see new gear and what kind of changes future patches will hold.

Also whoops, anytime I mentioned 15% crit from incite I really meant 10%... Unless you have 3/3 incite, which I don't.

Squirrelnut
01-13-2011, 01:33 PM
Current #1 WoL Parse from Furry Warrior on 25m normal Magmaw (26.7k effective dps):
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-1e0g3wwh66pm3q58/details/15/?s=10427&e=10675

Armory Link of "Offensive" from Gong Show who had the above parse:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/detheroc/offensive/simple

Point of interest on his armory is that he currently has 12.51% hit (so that would be 15.51% counting precision). In the Magmaw fight he only missed 19 melee attacks (RNG).

Symph
01-13-2011, 01:43 PM
Yeah he only missed 6.9% of his melee swings. I have significantly more hit than him and that's how much I should be missing. He also had a high amount of Incites. Just trying to compare it to my personal logs. I'm not 2/3 Incite and have slightly less crit than him but 13 procs is pretty insane and one point in incite and a few % more crit wouldn't account for that.

He was also getting tricks:
Tricks of the Trade 6 36.7 14.8 %

So yep, RNG and tricks ftw.

Andenthal
01-13-2011, 01:45 PM
Well, I'm not a Worgen, but I've also seen;

Hit(8%) -> Exp -> Hit(27%) -> STR -> etc...

Reason being - HS (and it's associated talents) is freaking OP right now. HS crits nearly twice as often as any other ability due to Incite (or 66% more often if you only have 2/3 Incite). Increasing your HS usage also increases DW and Flurry uptime, moreso than adding additional crit. Adding hit also increases Enrage uptime, allowing for RB to be used more often, and leaving fewer holes in the rotation.

Symph
01-13-2011, 02:00 PM
STR is still better than hit after 8%. Again I can't find the numbers, I'll try to look for them later on and copy/paste them.

Strength is just so good for us and the added damage to all of our attacks outweighs the higher flurry uptime and damage from heroic strike, simply because of str budget vs hit budget. Basically point for point STR will grant more DPS than hit. As an example, one hit gem won't grant you an extra heroic strike, but one strength gem will increase the damage of every attack. You just need a lot of hit to raise your HSF, and even if you do get enough, budgeting all that hit into STR will give you overall more damage.

Squirrelnut
01-13-2011, 02:16 PM
We are pretty clear that STR > Hit once you pass 8%, the question remains however what goal should you shoot for regarding hit before focusing on Crit?

So for example something like this:


8% hit = reforge haste -> hit
10% hit = reforge haste -> hit
15%+ hit = reforge haste -> crit? or wait till 20%+?

When is the cross-over point where crit becomes more helpful then hit?

Symph
01-13-2011, 02:18 PM
I'd definitely say at the very least 20%.

Andenthal
01-13-2011, 02:37 PM
We are pretty clear that STR > Hit once you pass 8%, the question remains however what goal should you shoot for regarding hit before focusing on Crit?
And this is where I become confused.

How can you say it's clear that STR > Hit past 8% when the amory you linked above (Offensive) is clearly gemming for Hit over STR? The only STR gems he has in his gear are in red sockets for socket bonuses (no other options aside from Expertise), plus 1 in a prismatic socket (to activate meta). Every other non-red socket has +Hit in it - he's ignoring STR as much as he can.

Also not sure where the arbitrary 20% comes from, unless that's the point where you're HSing every 3 secs plus using IR, and litterally have more rage than you can spend, but I imagine that could also take into consideration Haste, etc.

Squirrelnut
01-13-2011, 02:49 PM
And this is where I become confused.
How can you say it's clear that STR > Hit past 8% when the amory you linked above (Offensive) is clearly gemming for Hit over STR?
He is not gemming hit over str, look again.
He is simply taking advantage of socket bonuses. Every socket that could have Str and still provide the socket bonus does (chest, belt, legs).

Andenthal
01-13-2011, 02:54 PM
He is not gemming hit over str, look again.
He is simply taking advantage of socket bonuses. Every socket that could have Str and still provide the socket bonus does (chest, belt, legs).

Shoulders, chest and legs, all have a blue socket that could take a STR hybrid gem if STR was better than Hit (and still keep the socket bonus). He has Hit in each of those sockets - NOT STR.

The only sockets that have STR are the Red ones (no other options), plus his belt buckle (likely to activate the meta).

He's gemming for max Hit, not max STR.

Symph
01-13-2011, 03:43 PM
And this is where I become confused.

How can you say it's clear that STR > Hit past 8% when the amory you linked above (Offensive) is clearly gemming for Hit over STR? The only STR gems he has in his gear are in red sockets for socket bonuses (no other options aside from Expertise), plus 1 in a prismatic socket (to activate meta). Every other non-red socket has +Hit in it - he's ignoring STR as much as he can.

Also not sure where the arbitrary 20% comes from, unless that's the point where you're HSing every 3 secs plus using IR, and litterally have more rage than you can spend, but I imagine that could also take into consideration Haste, etc.
What does the red gem in the prismatic socket have to do with activating the meta? Unless I'm missing something, he's using chaotic which requires more blue than red gems. That is why he's gemming hit. Look at his gem breakdown in the advanced tab. He is using 5 red gems and 6 blue gems, that's perfect gemming to activate the meta.

Even at 27% hit, you are not gonna be able to HS every CD. And IR is just useless, we're never going to use it in a raid environment, so it shouldn't even be considered. 20% is just a rough number I came up with, with some really bad napkin math, (if you read my earlier post, I said you should aim for 20% around mid tier gear) because it's smooth enough rage gen to keep RB + BT on CD while being able to safely heroic strike (though definitely not on cooldown).

I'm not sure how to explain it, but I'll try. Hit is very odd. It's incredibly valuable at lower levels of gear because stat for stat it provides the smoothest rage gen. While at low levels of gear you lack other rage generating stats, such as crit and haste. You want to be able to get as much rage as possible and hit is simply the best way to do it.

On the other hand, in end game gear, you have such an abundance of stats that it's easy to reforge to hard hit cap and still maintain a high level of crit and haste.

Mid-tier gear is another story. I gotta run for now so I'll post later or someone else can cover it.

Btw all of this is subject to change depending on how mastery scales and what future patches bring.

Squirrelnut
01-13-2011, 04:02 PM
My impression: mastery sucks, always has and always will unless they make a SUBSTANTIAL change to it. 4.06 notes thus far lead me to believe that is not going to happen soon.

Andenthal
01-13-2011, 04:12 PM
What does the red gem in the prismatic socket have to do with activating the meta? Unless I'm missing something, he's using chaotic which requires more blue than red gems. That is why he's gemming hit. Look at his gem breakdown in the advanced tab. He is using 5 red gems and 6 blue gems, that's perfect gemming to activate the meta.
You are right about the meta reqs. I must have been looking at/thinking of something else. That explains that.

shiz98
01-13-2011, 09:28 PM
PSA: Crit no longer provides a rage bonus.


On the other hand, in end game gear, you have such an abundance of stats that it's easy to reforge to hard hit cap and still maintain a high level of crit and haste.
Haste is pretty much a crappier version of hit -- the conversion ratio is lower, but the effect of haste is for all intents and purposes identical to that of hit. As it is right now the only value in hit past the 8% cap is rage gen, as the white DPS is laughable. Haste is in a similar boat: the only time you'd want to have any haste on you is when you've capped hit at 27% and you still don't have the rage you need. It's not a stat you want to have a nice balanced amount of, at any gear level. You either need it, or you don't. If you're not hit capped, you don't need it.


My impression: mastery sucks, always has and always will unless they make a SUBSTANTIAL change to it. 4.06 notes thus far lead me to believe that is not going to happen soon.
Fury's mastery is also rather difficult to model, so most people talking about its value are coming from a purely anecdotal standpoint. I wouldn't write it off so quickly until people play around with it on the PTR.


There are numbers to support it floating around on a forum somewhere (can't find it atm), though I don't think they're on Tankspot.
I'll do a search through EJ at some point in the future then. Urgh. Nothing worse than having to trawl through one of their 50 page threads looking for the most recent update on something. Curiosity is a bitch sometimes...

Symph
01-14-2011, 07:48 AM
My impression: mastery sucks, always has and always will unless they make a SUBSTANTIAL change to it. 4.06 notes thus far lead me to believe that is not going to happen soon.
Judging from the posts I've seen concerning the testing on the patch changes: Raging blow damage has been buffed by a significant amount due to both the straight up damage buff and the mastery change and how it double dips with mastery. You also have to remember mastery scales with every stat from gear we have. More hit and haste = higher enrage uptime, more crit = more flurry procs causing higher enrage uptime and higher chance to crit with raging blow, larger damage increase to deathwish which will get better the stronger our trinket procs get, etc. I can easily see mastery being an incredibly good stat in the last tier of content (and maybe before) when it's easy to hit the 27% hit cap and maintain a good amount of other stats.


PSA: Crit no longer provides a rage bonus.
Really? I didn't realize fury warriors weren't speccing into flurry anymore. PSA: If you crit, you proc flurry and gain a 25% attack speed bonus and generate more rage.

Macar
01-14-2011, 09:32 AM
Simulationcraft shows crit at slightly higher value than hit for me. I am sitting at 13.45% hit and 17.28% crit at the moment.

My dummy testing shows that there is really no difference at all if I reforge hit or crit. To me, hit and crit seem to be on par. I guess this is becasue of flurry uptime from crit.

shiz98
01-14-2011, 12:50 PM
If you crit, you proc flurry and gain a 25% attack speed bonus and generate more rage.
This makes a lot of sense. It never occurred to me!

I almost feel like crit is even more effective than you'd estimate. If you're sitting at, say, 25% crit, it's probably reasonable to put the equivalent hit at 10%, to ballpark it. I wonder how that'll play out in later gear levels with the DR on that rage bonus...

Symph
01-14-2011, 02:40 PM
Simulationcraft shows crit at slightly higher value than hit for me. I am sitting at 13.45% hit and 17.28% crit at the moment.

My dummy testing shows that there is really no difference at all if I reforge hit or crit. To me, hit and crit seem to be on par. I guess this is becasue of flurry uptime from crit.
Personally I wouldn't use simcraft as guideline right now. There's still a lot of bugs to be worked out. Crit probably is just as good as hit, but the problem is that's assuming you crit as much as you're supposed to. Hit is just the "safer" option and provides steadier/smoother gains of rage. As an example, it's completely possible to crit as much as you're supposed to, but not at the right times. Chain critting will provide you with a great amount of rage, then you could go a while without critting and generate incredibly low rage. Capping your hit will make sure you never have a moment where you're not generating rage. And even if you're not capped but close enough to the cap, the rage will still be consistent enough for you to deal with a 6-7% miss rate and you usually won't have moments where you're overwhelmed with rage, and if you do have moments like that it's not caused by hit.

I can see stacking crit over hit being easily viable at later gear levels, but you just simply can't get your crit high enough for it to be a dependable amount of rage income with current gear levels.

Khilbron
01-14-2011, 06:08 PM
Just from my personal experience, I am parsing top 50 most of the time I dps(and dont fuck up to mechanics). The way I've built my setup is. Hit to 8%, exp to 26, After that the focus was on Str. I was fortunate enough to get alot of epics with hit on it. So the plan i took was reforge as much Hit as i could into Crit.

Currently sitting at:
Attack Power - 9295
Expertise - 25 / 25
Haste - 8.17%
Hit - 11.76%
Crit - 19.76%

Some sample parses.

Was above 20k, but execute spam caused me to rip the boss(yeah i was bad) so I died near the end.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/svv4rvb4lv0j97ph/sum/damageDone/?s=143&e=351

If you want to compare parses, here is my argaloth parse where i had 20% hit and 10% crit.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6poz3m9zii17qc8j/sum/damageDone/?s=217&e=440

18.5k on Chimaeron enough for top 30
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8gmqtwq309c3yfur/sum/damageDone/?s=1943&e=2296

By changing my focus from hit, to crit, I have noticed a drastic improvement in overall dps. I am personally feeling that trying to reach 27% hit won't even matter until midway through T12, just because of how low the rest of our stats are.

I have set my self to use 4 different gems. The 3 most commonly used gems are:

Piercing Dream Emerald : 20crit / 20hit
Etched Demonseye: 20str / 20hit
Inscribed Ember Topaz: 20str / 20crit
and occasionally I will use a Bold Inferno Ruby: 40str

Symph
01-15-2011, 01:59 AM
I've had the opposite experience. My gear is honestly not that great simply because I've been passing on things due to political guild reasons. But yeah I have exactly 20% hit and here is my parse on Argaloth on tuesday:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-xodk7hhicw91b2lj/sum/damageDone/?s=274&e=468

Again my parses aren't great by any means since I'm still using quite a few blues and not lucky enough to have gotten 2pc yet (gg no Prot shoulders 2 weeks in a row).

Nighthorror
01-19-2011, 09:00 AM
I have 20% hit and have been running around that area for most of the xpac. Every time I go over 20 hit I usually respec into crit depending on how much hit ill lose. I currently hold the 20th spot on 25man magmaw on WOL without tricks and still don't have epic weapons. IMO Stat balance is more important than anything else. So overall people are over valuing hit right now and should not be focusing on it much past 20%.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-duq3s4hpto6b7uz1/sum/damageDone/?s=1550&e=1843#Nighthorror

Thegreatme
01-19-2011, 09:10 AM
I'd go so far as to say that people should not focus on hit past ~15%. At the end of the day, theoretically speaking, any hit past 8% that you willingly itemized hit > crit, is a DPS loss. Because of this ideally we should be running with as low of hit as we feel capable of running.

Nighthorror
01-19-2011, 09:16 AM
I'd go so far as to say that people should not focus on hit past ~15%.

I know your right but every time i try to go lower and test the limits of hit I just feel my rage gen at anything below 18% is just too rng and leaves you open to being rage staved with one mistake. While that might make me bad I am pulling ranked logs so I must be doing something right ( no im not being a smart ass). Are there numbers out there to support good rage generation on anything lower than 16% without rng?

Squirrelnut
01-19-2011, 09:32 AM
I'd go so far as to say that people should not focus on hit past ~15%. At the end of the day, theoretically speaking, any hit past 8% that you willingly itemized hit > crit, is a DPS loss. Because of this ideally we should be running with as low of hit as we feel capable of running.
This seems to fall in line with some of the top world parses I have seen on various fights (many of them around 16% hit) but it bothers me because my personal experience shows different results. I feel incredibly rage deprived whenever I drop below 20% hit.

I suppose the additional issue is 3 points in Deep Wounds with higher Crit % versus 3 points in Incite with higher Hit for rage gen and HS use.

Kazeyonoma
01-19-2011, 11:00 AM
the idea with hit stacking is and has always been advocated by TGM to smooth out your rage generation. The lower you can get hit while maintaining smooth rage generation, the better your overall dps will be because you're contributing more stats towards other damage increasing stats instead of just dumping it into your offhand rage generation.