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View Full Version : Tanking I need help to get a prot paladin healable



Katzazi
01-09-2011, 09:51 PM
We have a paladin in the guild who I find really hard to heal. It feels like healing a DK but without the stable phases they have. We did Grim Batol heroic (I did it two times before without a problem.) We used every CC: shaman, retri and warlock. Even then I often had to chain spam FH on him in heal chakra while Guardian Spirit was on him and keeping Serenity up. On the trash. Same with the first boss, every time he had to grap the thrugs I had to chain spam with all I had. We only survived because of my guardian spirits and the two Lay on Hands. That's while everything else worked quite nicely and the special add was CCed.

My holy priest is 85 just for a few days, but I doubt the main problem is on my side. I've healed some heroics and had no problem to heal any of the 4 tank classes until I met him. At least not when eveything else seems to be going like it should be. He also complained before, that he was kicked from groups because of underperformance even while wearing 3 pre-raid epics so he thought he did do well.

I play a prot warrior as a main, I know about tanking basics. So I told him to reforge stuff to mastery. He refused. He thinks he needs all the hit and expertise "because he needs it for threat because if the first hit does not land the stupid dds would steal itimedeatly". I said he could taunt in that case. Answer was: "That's impossible because I already use it for the pull." Well that's quite not what I would recommend but he does not trust me there.

Anyway, I used a character planer and looked what one could do with reforging and geming. That's what I got (eveything unbuffed and I think against lvl85):
12,77% dodge, 12,48% parry, 37,05% block <-- according to armory
13,99% dodge, 13,97% parry, 41,40% block <-- stam, stam/mastery, stam/parry
13,99% dodge, 13,97% parry, 44,91% block <-- stam/mastery, mastery, mastery/parry
13,86% dodge, 13,71% parry, 45,79% block <-- only mastery with 3 stam/ma. for meta

The last version looks like a big upgrade, about 11% nearer to unhittable. But even the version using some stam in every slot gives about 6% (it's what I think he tries to do). But I doubt this alone explaines my problems.

I don't know enough about prot paladins to extract if he is doing his stuff right, so I asked other prot paladins on my server what could be the problem (beside reforging).

I was told he should spec into Eternal Glory (and Divine Guardian, but this would only gie me more time to heal him, butI was already spamming solely on him). He says it's useless and he does not know any other prot paladin who uses it. Well, I tried a spec with and without it at 80 and I liked the version with Eternal Glory much more myself, because it's quite nice to be ably to use a 3 holy power stack more than once. But I'm not sure how good it is at 85. He also does not have Judgement of the just. If this is the pala version of Demo Shout I would include it in my spec. But again, I don't know enough about paladins.

I asked if he always has the holy power shield up. He told me, he would prefere to use word of glory instead if he drops low. Well, I never would have guessed it while watching his health bar. (I don't know about the heroic but he only used 9 WoG in a full non-hero instance later on.) However he insured me that even when he uses WoG he get's the shield stuff maintained. (He linked me the wrong talent about this, but another paladin could point me to the right one, and it seems like he's correct.)

Well, I actually don't know, if he is using his CDs at all. I'm using them more or less on CD while doing heros on my prot warrior who has a better equip than him and who can stun, interrupt, disarm and spell reflect much more than a paladin. I'm not shy to use CDs on my priest either. But I cannot tell if he ever used one of but lay on hands in the runs I did with him. I never saw his health bar stabilise for about the duration of a CD while we did stuff where I had to chain cast on him.



Can you help? One step would be to find the core problem. Or if it could be all of it together. Another step would be how to communicate the solution to him so he would try it. I asked him to reforge everything to mastery for another run today. I would pay the costs if it would not help or even be worse, but he refused. He thinks he would be helpless without his hit and expertise or maybe he is stuborn.

I would not bother with him if we would have more tanks for heroics. I'm just tired to always run heroics with my warrior because I'm the MT and everybody is queing up to run with me.

(I'm not linking his profile, that would feel like name calling.)

Doc309
01-10-2011, 06:24 AM
While i'm not a UBER Pally i have read a bit on the class and my pally is now my favorite toon...
(disclaimer --She is geared for heroics, but i have only run normals.. I want a bit more gear before i step into the deep end...)

Bottom Line Up Front -- There are only two things a tank has worry about. Threat and Survivability. sounds like your pally is worried more about Threat when they should worry more about Survivability.

First, point the pally towards maintankadin...
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?p=605777&rb_v=viewtopic#p605777

While leveling and in normals i have found a Word of Glory build ( combined with running Seal of Insight ) simply incredible...
Leveling, I'd finish over pulls with a full health and mana bar.
I have solo'd the last 30% of the next to last boss in the Lost City of TV. ( after the pug healer and dps didn't get out of the bright stuff on the ground...)

There are basically three ways for a tank to lose; not hold aggro and mobs smack down the group, not have high enough treat so the dps has to hold off... enrage timer gets hit, or be so hard to heal that the healer runs out of mana...
Unless your DPS is being threat capped, ( not the ones that focus on the wrong target :) ), or unless the pally can't hold aggro, the pally should run with SoI. every minor heal saves healer mana...

with 2/2 Guarded by the Light, WoG procs Holy Shield (+10% damage reduction for blocks) AND WoG overheals create a bubble for damage absorption. so i'm not sure what you are saying about the "holy power shield"...

with the new HoPow mechanics, a pally's job is to make HoPow as quick as they can, do as much damage/threat they can while building HoPow, and spend HoPow WISELY. WoG is part of spending it wisely.

See here for a basic WoG build:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZhrhcRddRMucbh:zksRbcMzc

Exiledknight
01-10-2011, 01:42 PM
Post his armory, and let the community do wonders.

Katzazi
01-10-2011, 02:39 PM
As I said - I will not post his armory - because it feels like name-calling. I don't have problems to post my own but I do not post ones of persons without their permission. You can comment the stuff I posted anyway.

Quinafoi
01-10-2011, 02:39 PM
1. Are they interrupting or stunning to reduce their incoming damage?
- A shield doesn't help against a giant fireball flying at your face.
2. Are they letting things get behind them?
- Bye parry, bye block, dodge lowered, here come the crits.
3. Are they not using their tanking cooldowns appropriately?
- Just cause it's trash, doesn't mean it can't hit hard.
4. Are they not moving out of the way of attacks more threatening than Little Big Flame Breath? (WTB Runty Shirt)
- Many attacks won't out right kill a tank but are often still avoidable in the first place.
5. Are they specced, gemmed, enchanted, and glyphed incorrectly?
- Fix it.
6. Are they healing themselves?
- Tank healing should always be right behind the healing of the healer and well above the healing of DPS.
7. Are they wearing pants? (Paladin tanks... sheesh)
- Put some pants on.

Exiledknight
01-10-2011, 03:43 PM
Well without seeing everything there is not much I can help with other than this

Mastery is our best stat, period every peice that doesnt have it should be reforged to it.
Spec- JotJ is required its an auto demo shout.....Every mob has 10% more AP this is huge
Hit and Expertise- are crap I have tanked with 12 expertise and under 2% hit with no problems.

Eternal Glory is a toss up, I dont run it in my normal spec but if he is getting trucked then it may be a better use.

Popping DP at the start of a pull is the best time to use it as it will be when he is taking the most dmg.

ekekrantz
01-11-2011, 04:52 AM
Hello i see my self as a pretty expericned prot pala have played it as main since begin of TBC and played all raids and game content with it.
First of all he pulls wrong always pull with shield even if its CC targets since it dont bounce on mobs that are CCed some situations require other pulls but rarley. Tell him to use seal of insight as the aggro gain from the other seals aint needed if he looses aggro he can just taunt back he got 2 tautns with short cds so should be fine.
I frequently use word of glory in hcs since with it i have been able to solo some hc bosses without healer. Also its not needed for him to use it all the time its just an insurance since he might need the holy power to shield slam a boss for aggro, its a matter of adopting to the situation. Also when he pop divine plea he gain 3 holy power and have a fast heal that way. On most bosses i got alsmost 30% of healing done. He should be able to use his divine shield on each pack pull also tahts 20% reduce dmg and also pop his aoe heal that all palas get on lvl 83 its really and awesome aoe heal. I can go on and on about much stuff he should do but really he needs to begin taking advice from ppl.

Sebadoh
01-11-2011, 05:22 AM
Hate to be blunt but if what you're saying is true, he is way too stubborn for his own good. You must be extremely desperate for a tank to put up with this guy, and that's a shame.

Forge66
01-11-2011, 06:32 PM
I have been told that I am a good palli tank and easy to heal. The things that he needs to be sure that he is doing are as follows.

1. Keep the mobs in front of him.
2. Once he has conciderable agro heal himself as much as possable with WoG.
3. Pop his trinkets early and often.
4. Stun mobs with HoJ whenever he can, stunned mobs don't hit back.
5. Stop casters with AS whenever possable, casters melee DPS is way less then their spells.

Cata has don't away with button rollers and zerging trash. If the DPS doesn't know how to control their agro it can make a tank nuts try'n to chase agro. I start every instance run by informing DPS to target my target only and no AOE until the second trash mob goes down. By then I have built up enough agro on all the mobs that it is safe for AOL use. I also let them know that I save all my taunts for pulling mobs off of the healer. I also instruct the healer NOT to heal stupid DPS. I am also not afraid to leave a group that refuses to kick a stupid person.

Katzazi
01-11-2011, 08:10 PM
Thank you for your responses. It seems that the biggest problem lies with his play-style. And my biggest problem is, to communicate this to him. At the moment there are only few guild members who go with him and more or less all our healers are looking for excuses to run with him. This will not help directly. But maybe he starts to change stuff over time (or player gear starts to hide some of the problems), soo.

The sad part is that he keeps to be worried about his threat when his survivability is the problem. If a dd pulls aggro in a heroic, it's at least half the fault of the dd. And it does not happen alot. Maybe he just needs more time to realize that he is playing Cata not Wrath, now. Maybe we should encourage him to try holy and heal some heroics. Healing shows you quite well how a fight should work and how it should not work. And that survival part is not only the job of the healer.

Quinafoi
01-12-2011, 08:50 AM
(or player gear starts to hide some of the problems)

Not in this expansion. Playing bad in good gear still gets you killed. Having better gear doesn't change the fact that if incoming damage exceeds healing received, you will die. Healers aren't designed to be able to heal you through your own mistakes. Your mistakes get you killed.