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View Full Version : The Weekly Marmot - 10 vs 25: In Review



Lore
01-04-2011, 12:07 PM
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Bashyou
01-04-2011, 12:20 PM
At the beginning. What addon is that for the mini map?

Timecks
01-04-2011, 02:22 PM
At the beginning. What addon is that for the mini map?

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?45772-Lore-s-UI <-- a bit out of date, but the SS of his UI and the intro video look to be the same minimap, so it's Chinchilla.

FailroggFTW
01-04-2011, 03:39 PM
I love your hair!

clvrlad
01-04-2011, 10:21 PM
hope your feeling better lore

Maverickroll
01-04-2011, 11:06 PM
get some rest and feel better Lore

Vahntra
01-04-2011, 11:30 PM
I believe 6 pces of loot drop in 25 man.

Nightwisher
01-04-2011, 11:40 PM
Who would have thought he could turn one of his videos into a get well soon card.

Get to feelin better lore! PST needs you to be tip top! Also... Where did your pink unicorn go? xD

gacktt
01-05-2011, 12:27 AM
Aren't all the hard modes insanely difficult on 10 when compared to 25? How many hardmodes are on 10 man? maybe 1% of all kills?

mystral
01-05-2011, 01:29 AM
To me, it feels as if 10 mans are more difficult than 25 mans, even though we have a strong 10 man group and a lot of "slackers" in 25 man.
Strange. :/

gacktt
01-05-2011, 01:47 AM
The best 25man guilds are all 8 or 9/12s. The best 10man is 2/12. Top 200 guilds are about 97% 25mans. Ensidia went back to 25man after getting nerd stomped by 10mans.

klausi
01-05-2011, 03:20 AM
Top 200 guilds are about 97% 25mans.
You should think about why is that?
a) You don't need special compositions for certain encounter, best example is nefarian with 5 undead cc and 3 reliable interrupter on a short cd (~ every 14s over up to 180s, so a prot paladin can't do it on his own) - a 25 man can easily bring a third tank instead of 5 cc classes and regulary will have enough interrupter around
b) external cooldowns, really helps out keeping your tanks alife and reducing their incoming damage over time
c) stacking of fotm dps/healer is possible. On 10 man you can't bring 3 hunter and 2 affliction lock for one fight and 2 rogues + 3 frost dks for another without missing a lot of (de)buffs.
d) designing 10 man for such a variety of different composition is not possible without making it to easy for eg heal-assisting heavy groups (blood dk, prot pala, shadow priest, enhancer) or to hard for groups without them. Just check some logs, it's a world of difference.

gacktt
01-05-2011, 04:40 AM
Really sucks to go 10man because we couldn't tolerate 3-4 dead weights lagging out every fight then having to face content twice as hard as 25man players do for less reward.

krilz
01-05-2011, 04:44 AM
After playing 10-man only now for a month (we were a 25-man guild before) I can safely say that the difficulty in 10-man is there. It's not about the HP on bosses, the damage you need to do, and the damage everyone takes, but it comes down to composition and abilities around it. We're progressing on Nefarian atm and it's really hard to position the adds in p1 if you dont have enough CC. We went in with 2 traps, 1 fear and 1 shackle (last one was rooted by our resto druid until one of the first died) and if we didn't have this composition, we would've probably have to get another tank or figure something else out.

Our Cho'gall kill was very hectic. I personally don't think we would've got it without 2 slowing traps. 2 freeze patches + Shadowfury worked great and on previous attempts we weren't even close with just 1 patch.

When it comes down to who can interrupt, who can slow, who can purge, who can remove a debuff; 10-man is very unforgiving. If you have the perfect setup, it all comes down to individual playing IMHO.

xulev
01-05-2011, 09:55 AM
25 is indeed only 5 pieces of loot, also we had 3 cloth bracers drop off halfus last night so the max 2 thing you mentioned is unfortunately inaccurate.

Rennadrel
01-06-2011, 10:10 PM
Loot distribution in 25 man is horribly imbalanced right now. On Maloriak my guild had 2 agility cloaks this week, Halfus dropped two plate DPS shoulders this week and last week Magmaw dropped two strength 2 hand axes. I mean that's all well and good if you have a lot of people who want to build off set gear, but it doesn't work well when people are trying to gear main sets and the same items wind up getting sharded because players won't even use them.

But I don't like how a lot of players are treating 25 man raiding. My guild is almost exclusively 25 man and have only done 10 mans when there have not been enough healers on to do 25 man. Other guilds on my server are trying to act all pro because they managed to kill all 12 bosses on 10 man, despite the fact that as was discussed on the Legendary show this week, organizing 25 people is not even close to the same as 10 people. My guild is the only one with more then 3 bosses down on 25 man and have done 8/12 overall, with 5 on 25 man while most other guilds are gearing strictly through 10 mans so they can easily be on gear par when they decide to do 25 mans.

klausi
01-07-2011, 02:15 AM
Other guilds on my server are trying to act all pro because they managed to kill all 12 bosses on 10 man, despite the fact that as was discussed on the Legendary show this week, organizing 25 people is not even close to the same as 10 people.
Don't worry about those "pro" 10 mans to much, most of them will return to 25 mans due to how heroic mode turned out to be tuned.

gacktt
01-07-2011, 08:28 PM
My guild is the only one with more then 3 bosses down on 25 man and have done 8/12 overall, with 5 on 25 man while most other guilds are gearing strictly through 10 mans so they can easily be on gear par when they decide to do 25 mans. Look on the bright side, once you beat nef and chogall on a slightly harder 25 version, you get 5-6 loot pinatas on hard mode. On 10man even paragon can't beat more than 3 hard modes, and those 3 hard modes require you using 100% of your dps as survival hunters, going 4 heals on 2 tank fights etc.

Savante
01-08-2011, 12:08 AM
I Really cant believe people saying 10 mans are harder..
It seems obvious to me that 10mans are clearly easier..
We are a 25 man raiding guild.. We want to kill bosses in 25man.. But.. to get used to fight we try the bosses on 10 mans.. Everything seems clearer in 10mans. easy to see whats going on.. TOO easy to execute complex tactics without too much people running around.. Also too easy to organize people..
We try not to kill bosses in 10mans not to upset the rest of the 25man team..
I dont think 10s are as hard as 25s just because numbers are adjusted feel similar difficulties. I dont think numbers only decide the difficulty of the encounter.

Papapaint
01-08-2011, 12:14 AM
The overarching problem is that 10s are less difficult to execute, but are significantly more tightly tuned. There's less complexity in 10 man, but the numbers are larger--which is part of why I think blizzard failed terribly at matching difficulties... numbers ultimately work out to a level of gear.

Fetzie
01-08-2011, 02:20 AM
I am seriously not looking forward to possibly having to use 3 tanks and 4 healers for some 10 man heroic fights. Yes, by all means make them hard, but that is raid stacking like Stars did for Yogg+0 25 (more than 6 affliction locks), Paragon did for LK25hc (divine guardian stacking) and what turned into ensidia for Kel'thuzad40 (paying warlocks to soulstone the entire raid). THAT is not extra difficulty, THAT is not "10s are easier to organise so we will tune it a little tighter", that is just plain and simple overtuned.

You can take 4 tanks and 8 healers to a 25 man because you usually have that in your roster. I do not know how many ten man rosters can support a similar setup and expect the heroic modes to get tuned down a shave. Heroic mode yes, but does it have to be this painful to set up?