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spikess
12-24-2010, 08:33 AM
I been looking at wol's and reading post's all over . Why are Fury Warrior's doing such low numbers in raids and classes like DK and Rogues are doing such high numbers. I belive all classes should be neck in neck and not far apart

Ronninn
12-24-2010, 09:40 AM
There just haven't been enough logs to draw many conclusions yet. I'm still using a couple 333 weapons, and I've been at the top of any runs I've attempted in the last week. I'd imagine in a few weeks after new years when there is more raid representation that your see a shift in numbers for all the classes.

Symph
12-24-2010, 10:28 AM
Don't expect fury warriors to be on top for a while, until better gear is available. Blizzard kinda messed up trying to make us not scale so well with gear, if anything we scale about the same with gear so we're in the same position as usual at the start of an expansion.

Krenian
12-24-2010, 10:58 AM
This is normally the same thing that happens every expansion:

Fury Warriors normally start around the middle of the pack. Then, when gear begins to come in, they will come up higher and higher to the point that at the end of the game, Fury Warriors are at the top. It's been like this in Vanilla, BC, Wrath, and the trend will most likely not change in Cataclysm, bar the Rage normalization mechanics they implemented.

Also, Rogues should be higher than you normally on equal gear and skill. Rogues are Pure DPS classes, which means the only role they can do is deal damage. As such, it's normal to see Rogues be higher than most.

However I find this odd that you say Rogues are high right now as I've seen most parses stating rogues are actually kinda in the middle of the pack as well. The real high damage dealing ones are the Death Knights as well as Survival Hunters.

Mallekai
12-26-2010, 06:37 AM
fury was easily top at the start of wrath, until they slapped the -10% dmg on TG

Utcha
12-26-2010, 08:04 PM
Rogues are Pure DPS classes, which means the only role they can do is deal damage. As such, it's normal to see Rogues be higher than most.

However I find this odd that you say Rogues are high right now as I've seen most parses stating rogues are actually kinda in the middle of the pack as well. The real high damage dealing ones are the Death Knights as well as Survival Hunters.

Interesting that an unpure class is at the top, no?

Kazeyonoma
12-27-2010, 04:39 AM
what is this pure/unpure crap.

if i'm spec'd for dps, i need to do dps, if i'm spec'd/rolled a tank i need to tank. it's not like a fury warrior can mid fight change into a prot warrior and tank the boss. likewise a druid who's spec'd boomkin isn't going to somehow become some OP caster dps tank. Stop grasping for straws to old world mentality, if you're dps you need to be competitive, if you're a healer you need to heal and if you're a tank you need to be able to tank, hybrid or not.

Macbrother
12-27-2010, 12:40 PM
what is this pure/unpure crap.

if i'm spec'd for dps, i need to do dps, if i'm spec'd/rolled a tank i need to tank. it's not like a fury warrior can mid fight change into a prot warrior and tank the boss. likewise a druid who's spec'd boomkin isn't going to somehow become some OP caster dps tank. Stop grasping for straws to old world mentality, if you're dps you need to be competitive, if you're a healer you need to heal and if you're a tank you need to be able to tank, hybrid or not.

While I agree with you in spirit, Blizzard has explicitly stated they expect their "pure" dps classes (rogue, mage, warlock, hunter) to do around 5% more dps than everyone else. That said, have they ever had the foresight/wherewithal to even follow their own guidelines? No.

Thegreatme
12-27-2010, 02:41 PM
Whether or not fury warriors are topping the damage meters is completely irrelevant. What matters is whether or not our DPS is competitive, which it is.

Edgewalker
12-28-2010, 01:36 AM
First and foremost, fury warriors are perfectly fine in the grand scheme of things. In overall WoL reporting they are about 87% of the DPS of the top performers. The classes from the 3rd slot (ass rogues) to the 12th slot (shadow priests) are all within the 85%-94% range. Survival hunters and Unholy Death Knights are the true upper echelon, where damage is probably too high and will need to come down some.

From the 14th tier to the 22nd tier we have the traditional "PvP" classes at the bottom in BM hunters and Sub rogues, Arcane mages, Marksman Hunters, and Arms warriors. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone given Arcanes poor design with new mana requirements and Blizzard's history of making PvP specs non competitive in PvE environments. Marksman damage will likely be buffed. Fire mages, Combat Rogues, Retribution Paladins, and Demo warlocks round out the list at the bottom. Fire mages are up and down depending on the AOE natures of some fights, but generally in single target damage perform very poorly.

Basically I just wrote a lot of words that could have been summed up as "You clearly didn't read WoL well enough".

Krenian
12-28-2010, 09:42 AM
So to pretty much summarize this whole thing is this:

Warriors are fine, don't look at other classes and where they're at. We're doing more than acceptable damage which means we're right where we should be. Edge really broke it down rather nicely by showing that we're right around the middle of the pack, which is what I stated we normally start off at. (Yes, before the 10%, we were pretty grossly OP but that was why we got the nerf. We were regulated back down to where we should have been)

In any case, just enjoy the class and do your best and the DPS will be up there. Certain tricks have to be learnt to maximize your damage but you'll be fine. Look at me: right now my warrior's only doing around 8k on bosses and that's with 333 gear. I'm sure I'm not doing everything to maximize my damage so really, I'm not in a position to complain. I just play the class and get used to the new tactics and try to figure out what is the best way to maximize your damage. It's a learning process we're all looking at.

Edgewalker
12-29-2010, 10:37 AM
While I agree with you in spirit, Blizzard has explicitly stated they expect their "pure" dps classes (rogue, mage, warlock, hunter) to do around 5% more dps than everyone else. That said, have they ever had the foresight/wherewithal to even follow their own guidelines? No.

They have long since done away with this philosophy.

Macbrother
12-29-2010, 02:38 PM
They have long since done away with this philosophy.

How long? This type of rhetoric involving hybrids vs pure was stated explicitly by Ghostcrawler as recently as 6 months ago.

Erkebrand
01-01-2011, 05:10 AM
http://www.wow-track.com/2009/10/27/ghostcrawler-hybrid-tax/ <- Where you will find:


There is not a “5% rule” that says pures should be 5% higher than hybrids in every circumstance. Again, most of the time other factors such as the encounter specifics will have a greater effect. The “5% rule” was either something a player suggested that stuck or something we threw out at some point as an example. It isn’t a hard and fast rule. We aren’t going to provide a hard and fast rule because players would then attempt to invoke that rule every time they thought their damage was too low instead of exploring other ways to improve their character’s performance

And


In our design, the pure dps classes (hunter, mage, warlock and rogue) should do slightly higher dps than hybrid damage-dealers all things being equal. All things are rarely equal. Player skill, gear, raid comp, latency, random luck and most importantly the specifics of the encounter will often favor one class, spec or player over another

Edgewalker
01-01-2011, 10:41 PM
However it has NEVER worked out that way, ever.

Krenian
01-02-2011, 08:35 PM
The problem is that it probably never will either because you have to have the perfect scenario:

In the PERFECT scenario, where latency is no issue and where the player is one of the top of the world who has his priority down to a tee (And we're talking about timing everything and anything to the precise number here. Which is damn near impossible), they say that they wanted it to be a difference between both the 'pure' dps and 'hybrid' dps.

The problem is that this scenario is nonexistant. Blizzard themselves in their office where the servers are mostly based off will prolly have a ping of some sort and would cause lag to be done. Either way, we can safely assume that the scenario just cannot happen.

As such, to think about a 5% hybrid tax rule is silly because Blizzard cannot control the lag or the player's best ability. At best, they can try to get the numbers close together but it'll never happen. And no matter what, they cannot change a player's skill. It just doesn't happen.

Therefore there are some decent warriors out there that will be average, some will be high, and some will be low. It's the norm and unless there are more in the low than they are in the middle and the middle is acceptable, they will not look at dps and say "it's too low."

Thus why the Fury Warrior section was not reviewed at all in the prelim patches that GC put out. Thus why we have constantly, time and time again, told you guys that we're fine and that you guys simply need to adapt the playstyle and accept the fact we are no longer king of the mountain at this time. We are fine in the DPS race.

Some classes will be looked at however and they've notified those classes that changes are coming. Therefore I sincerely suggest everyone to simply forget about this right now and if you're around the middle of the pack, that's around where they want you to be for now. Gear will most likely change this.

Strongbow
02-03-2011, 05:10 AM
So to pretty much summarize this whole thing is this:

Warriors are fine, don't look at other classes and where they're at. We're doing more than acceptable damage which means we're right where we should be. Edge really broke it down rather nicely by showing that we're right around the middle of the pack, which is what I stated we normally start off at. (Yes, before the 10%, we were pretty grossly OP but that was why we got the nerf. We were regulated back down to where we should have been)

In any case, just enjoy the class and do your best and the DPS will be up there. Certain tricks have to be learnt to maximize your damage but you'll be fine. Look at me: right now my warrior's only doing around 8k on bosses and that's with 333 gear. I'm sure I'm not doing everything to maximize my damage so really, I'm not in a position to complain. I just play the class and get used to the new tactics and try to figure out what is the best way to maximize your damage. It's a learning process we're all looking at.

Yes for myself I find Fury OK, but for my 10 man raid it's not OK if I make 3-5k less DPS than our Rouge or DK.
If you go 10 man raiding you have 2 problems at the moment:
Content is caster content (most time you hav maximum of 1 or 2 melees)
Fury/MS Warriours and Retribution Paladines has less DPS than Rouge or DK

So I have following situation:
Can't specc Tank as we have 3 full time tanks and I'm only the reserve Tank
We are 2 Fury Warriors, 1 Rouge and 1 DK in the pool - The Rouge and the DK makes lot of more DPS than the two Warriors (2-4k depending on the Boss)

Now what do you think, how often I'll get the chance to join the raid if we are doing HM Progress????

And that's the point wich is absolutely not OK!
If the DPS difference is less than view hundred DPS - think nobody cares about but actually it's to extreme.

I for myself Hope that the next Patch will fix this problem.
I'll look at this the next time, the next Patches, but if we have the same situation into the T12 content I'll tink about to quit the game, because I Play WOW to go raiding.
And I go raiding to make progress not to join the raid only for bosses the raid could kill easily.

etm_conely
02-04-2011, 09:48 PM
It does suck not being able to compete for dps ATM. As long as I have played this game we have always been top or close to the top in dps so i'm really not worried to much about where are dps is at. My bigger thing is pulling aggro atm in heroics and I wish that would stop but I imagine not using HS as much will fix that big time.

Loganisis
02-05-2011, 10:16 AM
I don't get why HS would cause aggro issues, it's not longer a high threat ability, isn't it?

Strongbow
02-07-2011, 09:03 AM
HS does not cause any additional TPS, but sometimes I also have to disclaim HS to avoid to much aggro.

Aggro is really an Fury issue. If you use your coodowns to ealry you get aggro.

Pre 4.0 I thougt that Blizzard use Aggro as an "natural" DPS limitation for Fury Warriors, but
this does akutally makes no sense.
Do not understand why some Melee have possibility to reduce Aggro and some not.
OK I as an night elve could use my elve vanish, but what about the other races?

Loganisis
02-07-2011, 11:51 AM
Unless you're a hunter or a rogue, if you pop your CDs early, you're going to get aggro, regardless of the class.... This isn't a Fury thing, it's how vengence and tank threat work.

I wanted to make sure that my memory was still good that there was no longer a threat multiplier in it...

If anything, hitting HS less won't have any affect, or will actually have an inverse affect on Fury aggro because Fury will now do the same rough output with fewer attacks... with RB buff replacing a chunk of what is lost (from both hit becoming shuffled for mastery, and for the buff from mastery from 4.7 to 5.8% per mastery point), nothing will be fixed by hitting HS less... the only way hitting HS less would have had an effect on aggro would be is if there was still a threat multiplier in HS.... If threat is just purely DPS*X, and DPS is more concentrated in the core rotation with RB being buffed... hitting HS more would actually decrease threat since it would be costing you DPS when you look at hit giving less DPS than mastery... so you hit with more abilities, but they hit smaller overall.

sifuedition
02-08-2011, 03:23 PM
While I agree with you in spirit, Blizzard has explicitly stated they expect their "pure" dps classes (rogue, mage, warlock, hunter) to do around 5% more dps than everyone else. That said, have they ever had the foresight/wherewithal to even follow their own guidelines? No.

They have since explicitly stated that their philosophy on this has changed. They stated that they do have a minor bias to the pures that is nowhere near 5% and is realistically only seen at the very top end of performance.

P.S.
http://www.wow-track.com/2009/10/27/ghostcrawler-hybrid-tax/

There were other posts that clarified even better that the difference is typically not 5%.