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Krenian
12-20-2010, 10:09 AM
If you liked this guide, feel free to spread the word. Also, I have recently opened a Twitter account where I will add thoughts and ideas when it comes to WoW and other things. I would sincerely feel honored if you all wished to post on this if you wanted to follow me.

@Krenian. Hope to see you there!

DPS and you : A guide to learning the Cataclysm way.

Hello fellow DPSers! I decided to write this in the holiday spirit to explain to you all the differences in which you should start learning when it comes to Cataclysm dungeon exploring and raid exploring. To some of you, this is common sense and that people should always know. But I see time and time again while running dungeons some DPS that simply do NOT realize that the changes that were brought to Cataclysm are not just aesthetical. Below will be some average rules and guidelines by yours truly trying to explain to you, as a DPS, just what exactly has changed. Also, I will explain changes that have happened between Tank, Healing and DPS synergies in which you should be aware of. The more information you have, the more aware you will be of the situation when it arises and better to deal with this information.

DPS – a name or a responsibility?

To many, DPS simply is numbers. Numbers popping up in front of us are always good. Red numbers are bad, green numbers are awesome and yellow numbers and white numbers. We see a world of numbers and we tend to get so engrossed that we forget the basic foundation of what a DPS should be doing.

Now, Wrath was far and well known as a successful expansion for Blizzard. However, it has spawned a new generation of gamers that do not necessarily bode well in the World of Warcraft: Cataclysm ideal. This guide is for you guys. Wrath and Cataclysm are two different beasts and this will help new individuals as well as the veterans to understand where some people are coming from and perhaps glimpse into how people think.


Back in Wrath, all we DPS needed to do is maximize our damage. Let’s be honest: Healing was pretty much a joke with healers having mana to last you a long while and threat was a non issue unless it was a mechanic in the game. This has made DPS only focus on one thing and that’s to dps. Oh, you took damage from some AoE attack? No problem, healer can top that. Tank is getting a little low on threat? No problem, call a threat increasing attack like Misdirect or Tricks of the Trade and have that issue resolved. CC? Psh, AoE the suckers down, the tank will take the aggro no problem.

This is not the same in Cataclysm.

One of the fundamental things that people need to realize is that with the changes done to the world, Blizzard has made it that dungeons will now require CC. This is especially true for Heroics. Some of these fights will require you to dust off some old tools that you never used back in the Wrath days and to start learning how to proactively learn how to use them.

1) Learn to use the Crowd Control tools that you have off your bars!

One of the biggest problems I’ve noticed nowadays is that people have simply forgotten they had CC, or furthermore, how it works. The DPS class has been given tools to CC mobs. The exceptions on this would probably be the Warrior class and the Death Knight class, as they don’t necessarily have great CC (Intimidation Shout and Hungering Cold are not great CCs. I don’t care how you look at it, they’re not; not with that much of a cooldown on a skill that lasts less time than it does to kill one mob.) Many people need to start relearning their tools and to understand when to use them. Which brings me to my next point:

2) Practice using your CC!

This is paramount: If you do not know how to properly use your CC, put yourself in the situation outside a fight. Go find groups of two or three and try to CC the targets properly that will provide the least amount of problems for your group and yourself. This will allow for smart and good CCing.

3) Talk to your group!

You have no idea how much stress I have to put on this point. Talk to your group when you CC! In fact, talk to your group period. Get out of the mindset of being on your own and being the lone wolf. It doesn’t work in a situation in which you have to deal with other individuals. Dungeons are made so that everyone works together. Even if it’s just a PUG, it doesn’t mean you cannot talk to your tank or your healers to make the run go smoothly. Also, look and see what kind of tank you are dealing with. Some tanks prefer to do their CC first, while others like to have their CC done after they’re done establishing aggro. Either way, you should talk to your tank as well as other members and establish who you will be using your CC on.

4) Establish your targets!

See those nice lil icons people liked to dink around with? Use them to good use and establish your own icon and say that you will be CCing this target. Yes, the tank normally leads the assault but if the tank hasn’t been in the instance, and you have, the tank will appreciate what targets will be out of the way while he does his job and you will show that you are able to CC properly. Showing this will actually mean a lot more than sitting back and letting the group explode due to your arrogance that a tank should do all the marking. It is a team effort, not just a tank effort, and as DPS, you must be smart about it.



Having established a few rules, there are some more that you can look as you go along and this list could indeed grow. But some of those key essential rules are vital to look at and understand. Now, let’s go into the relationship that you will have with your other groups: Your tank and your Healer.

Healers – a love hate relationship

Ever sat back and wondered why healers are just not healing you anymore? Do you seem like you’re always taking damage and yet you have no idea why the healer isn’t giving you those heals they used to back in Wrath? Well let’s sit down for a moment here and read a bit about what happened in Cataclysm to healers.

Healers were in a situation in Wrath where mana was nearly infinite. Yes, there were times healers had no mana and this was due to a lot of problems, but the general term of healing really stayed along the lines of “I can do anything and keep my party up.” This led to a drastic change in Cataclysm where healers now have to worry about that blue bar. Which means, unfortunately, DPS, you will have to keep yourself alive as much as you can and NOT exhaust your healer’s mana. Let me go into detail:

Healers have 3 sorts of healing:

Single target healing: This is pretty much their heals they use to keep one target up. You have a quick heal, which uses an enormous amount of mana and is quite inefficient, you have a medium heal which is the average heal they’re using for tanks and you have the slow and high heal which takes forever and requires the caster to stay put while doing said heal. So, all three heals are to be used in certain situations. Those situations require them to heal the tank, who is taking constant medium damage. The fast heal will kill their mana pool, while the slow heal may risk a tank’s life by using it.

AoE healing: This is a type of healing which is slightly below average, but heals a bunch of people and costs about as much as a fast heal. This is why this should only be used in AoE situations. Healers cannot constantly use these AoE heals because the tank and you took damage and as such, you seriously need to watch yourself again.

HoT healing: This is where you might get some reprieve. HoTs allow a healer to drop one on you and let that hopefully heal your damage. However it is up to you to stop taking damage and as such, it is not a heal that will absolutely let you live if you constantly continue to take damage and not have to worry about dying.

All three healing situations won’t help you if you do not have one thing:

CONSTANT AWARENESS OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS!

I have to say that this is insanely important. I don’t know how many times I have to say this being a problem that can easily be fixed.

The biggest culprit? Lack of attention. The DPS is prone to watching their numbers and making sure their rotations are in check. This means we are really not paying attention to a lot of things. This needs to stop.

In WotLK, you were able to stand in a zone and take a bit of damage before getting out and know that the healer will keep you alive because the Healer has the mana to use on you. This is no longer the case; with mana so important to them, Healers will be stressed enough to worry about the tank taking a big hit and not surviving when doing so. This requires you to be smart and not to stress your healer more because you’re not noticing you’re standing on a hot red zone and you take red damage.

Some fixes to make your view a bit more bearable when it comes to taking any type of damage would be to customize your UI so that you actually 'see' the damage coming in on you. This does mean clearing anything that could be clutter in your screen so you may actually see certain graphics that may indicate not to stand in that area, or a way to show that your health is being lost due to an AoE attack or a zone. Certain suggestions can range between a HUD or other tools that would show the number of damage you are currently taking. Remember, a good UI can help you in the long run.

One of the biggest problem I see is the above scenario: standing in damage dealing zones. You can’t do this anymore. The healing examples I gave you above should give you the idea of why you can’t do this anymore: mana cannot be spent to heal you because you wanna stand in fire and keep DPSing.

Begin the thought process of how to live through the entire fight.

This honestly hasn’t changed any expansion. Wrath simply made it so much easier to deal with. This will change and has change with Cataclysm and as such you seriously need to change the viewpoints of what your job is. A DPS is to give damage to the enemy and help down the creature, but you are no good dead or dying. Nor are you good stressing your tank and healers due to standing in stuff that can be avoided. Strafe, move with your keys, your mouse, whatever you move with. Move OUT of it, then resume DPSing.

Do not and I repeat, do not presume the healer will save you.

The Tank: Smack that Aggro higher!

Tanks are a creature that we also have a love/hate relationship but it is not as defective. Some tanks can bear with a bad DPS because they know how to deal with it. In Cataclysm, it’s going to be a different sort of; it mostly is because the tanks will want CC due to lower gear and health output, and the DPS are still wanting to AoE and do so much damage. This is where the discussion of talking with your tank and discussing what is the best thing do to for them comes into play.

1) Discuss the idea of what the tank will do before the start of the instance.

Oddly enough, some tanks will not want CC because they prefer tanking without the CC and it is more efficient. For some reason, I see a lot of times that Paladins really don’t need that much CC. I ran one Vortex Pinnacle with no CC because the Paladin would simply break it and keep tanking all of it. At first I thought maybe the tank was just terrible and would like to break CC because he can and has the Wrath mindset, but the more I noticed, and talked to my healer, the more we realized that the paladin actually knew how to mitigate most of the damage he was being done and the healer really wasn’t as stressed as he could be.

This can lead to some DPS being frustrated while CCing and noticing the tank doing nothing but breaking them, which then can lead to the DPS simply saying ‘eff it’ and never CC again. You can’t think this way; you have to discuss it with the tank. Instead of letting frustration build up, why not talk to the tank and ask him if he’s just better off wanting to tank the whole thing or CC. If it turns up that the healer really is too stressed because of the tank taking too much damage, then the healer may speak up and ask for the CC afterwards. But it is never too late to ask the tank what his preferred tanking method is. Remember you are a team for the time you are in the group, and as a team, it is up to all of you together to work together and make things work out the way people are most comfortable. Besides, if it turns out that it’s no CC, it’s then a lot more fun to just AoE the crap out of everything.

2) Watch your threat. It’s actually becoming important!

Changes were done in Cataclysm which have modified how certain of our threat increasing abilities work, such as Misdirection and Tricks of the Trade. They no longer permanently give you the threat one class causes, but simply give it to you for a set amount of time, then remove that threat afterwards. This may cause spikes at some points in the fight that you will want to be mindful of. This means you will definitely want to reacquaint yourself either with the Blizzard threat meter installed in the game (this means moving the mouse over a mob and showing the nameplate with the threat meter) or you can download one of many different threat meters out there; Omen is the most popular one out there but there are some more available to you.

Also, be aware that now, you will want to have a hand on your aggro reducing talents even more; pulling aggro will not let you live long, if at all. Most of the time, two shots will be enough to kill you. Tanks may have great reflexes when they see their mobs pulled off, sometimes it just happens that the tank is out of CDs cause you were pushing the threat roof and it turns out that mob that you hit loves to smack things in the face hard and you faceplant. It is your responsibility to watch the threat and work with the group to fix this. Vanish, Feign Death, Soulshatter among others are all there to lower your threat. Yes, there are some classes that will have no ability to reduce threat like Warriors, but in a situation where the tank is hitting three mobs and the rest CC’ed, switch your target and let the threat decay away while you kill another mob. It’s better that the mob gets killed a bit slower instead of the mob turning around and killing you, which will make the whole fight slower.

3) Work with your tank with marks!

Tanks are aware of their role in a party. But as a DPS, that doesn’t mean you can’t be active with them too! Designate a mark for yourself and tell the group that this mark is yours and whatever mark you use, will be the mark that you CC. Furthermore, if you know the instance and everyone else doesn’t, why not say that you will mark the targets that should be DPSed down first? Normally any healing class that isn’t CCed are the ones that should go down but with new instances, this means new names and as such, we’re still not certain of every mob that can heal individuals. As such, be proactive and actually tell the tank that you will CC and guide people if necessary. If the tank is fine with marking everything, great, makes your job easier. However tell the tank that you’re able to mark and save time. If all DPS are marking their own targets and the tank marks his own, it makes marking faster and pulling faster, and as such, should make the run faster.

End notes:

Well, I hope this enlightens some of you. It’s a refreshing new start to an expansion and as such, we have to be ready for the idea that some people are not as knowledgeable as others when it comes to playing in a group. Group play requires coordination and working together to make the party work and just simply going gung ho will not be great for your party.

Try to be proactive and be aware of your surroundings. Bring your own healing potions and bandages, a la Vanilla, and heal yourself. As a DPS, it is your job to do damage, but as a player, it is your job to survive and do your role as well! Let us all go out there and help other players understand so thaty they can get an idea of the new changes, and as a community grow stronger with the knowledge and help each other out.

Insahnity
12-20-2010, 10:26 AM
While all true, this is a "preaching to the converted". People already know this, or they don't and are not going to listen, the inbetween ground is virtually non-existant (or at least, that is what I have noticed). So you will get the DPS continuing Wrath mindset and chain pulling against the tank's wishes, with the healer OOM, and then when the party wipes, they blame either the tank or healer and vote-kick appropriately. And eventually, they get to a really great tank or healer than enables their moronic ways.

As a tank or a healer, sometimes there isn't much you can do other than quit the party. If you stick it out, aside from the verbal abuse from whatever retard is causing you the grief, you also have to deal with potential losses of the 5 man, as a tank or healer will eventually just let DPS die, but sometimes it won't be the trouble maker (Ex. Hunter Pulls aggro, Feigns death, next DPS gets eaten). Which leads to more stress as the tank and/or healer attempt to compensate, sometimes with little success as the encounter is designed around 5 live party members.If you quit in frustration, you get upset at the game and maybe leave it altogether. It's a hard adjustment for many, unfortunately, and not designed to go well with the random dungeon system they put in place.

Krenian
12-20-2010, 11:33 AM
Insahnity.

You say this and yet I see people constantly do something wrong and as such, they have problems dealing with groups and get frustrated or the group crumbles because of people not following certain points highlighted in this.

I, unlike you, would like to think that people are receptive to certain ideas and changes that need to be addressed as people simply do not understand the changes or they are so stuck in their ways that they require guidance. As an author, it is my duty to go and state this and help people out. The fact that you just want to give up does not rectify anyone's situation but yours as you do not want to deal with a bad group.

My job is to educate. Your job may be to just play but this guide was meant to educate. Whether or not it's utility to you is there, it doesn't mean others will not appreciate and would like to ask you to refrain from being negative and speak about ways we can, as a community, reinforce the changes.

Complaining about how people will not change incites them not to change and pretty much keeps people at the status quo. I rather not have this.

Bashal
12-20-2010, 11:36 AM
Keeping in mind that there are likely a lot of people not registered to the site and just read posts, there's probably more than a few who visit tankspot and can benefit from this post.

Perhaps if we were only thinking about registered users, with the odd exception, this would be a case of pretty much "preaching to the choir".

Krenian
12-20-2010, 11:37 AM
True but this is meant to be a basic guide to whoever decides to come to Tankspot to enlighten themselves. I gather people come here to actually work and fix their ways and this might be a good review for anyone honestly. Whether you're a veteran or a newbie, I don't see many problems that are wrong in the text.

Of course I could be wrong.

Kanzer
12-20-2010, 12:03 PM
You'd be surprised the amount of DPS who are actually decent players who can't seem to get used to the idea of "you're not wiping us because of some glaringly bad mistake, but lots of little ones resulting in some unecessary damage here, and unecessary damage there, thus draining our healers mana." Some healers too actually..and hell, even tanks...

MellvarTank
12-20-2010, 12:10 PM
I'm a fan of this post. It is bang on.

I also agree with Kanzer. First raid and the healers basically figured out that if a DPS does something stupid, it is literally the tank or them and the tank can save the healer... so guess which one they picked?

Kazeyonoma
12-20-2010, 12:14 PM
good guide, worth having for those who stumble across, people who are tanks and never have dps'd until now, and just as a good reference for us to link people in party/guild/game/etc to give them an idea of how to get better.

Krays
12-20-2010, 12:41 PM
Nice guide but just wanted to add , although the warrior dps class brings no real cc to the table, they have alot of clutch moves, that can take a wipe to a successful pull, warriors who pvp will be familair with these skills. A fury warrior can almost completely lock out a dangerous caster alone, using a pummel, intercept, intercept again (heroic fury), pummel , fear, a warrior can also quickly swap ona shield, go d and press shield wall if tank dies and then take the fight to finish, a warrior can also disarm mobs giving healer breathing room .

It can only be used occasionaly and doesnt give you huge breathing room, but it does stop wipes, also i have glyphed my fear so that i can use fear with no worries of pulling more mobs. A good fury warrior can be an asset , not as huge asset as a skilled rogue, but good enuff, if you play well.

Krenian
12-20-2010, 12:46 PM
Nice guide but just wanted to add , although the warrior dps class brings no real cc to the table, they have alot of clutch moves, that can take a wipe to a successful pull, warriors who pvp will be familair with these skills. A fury warrior can almost completely lock out a dangerous caster alone, using a pummel, intercept, intercept again (heroic fury), pummel , fear, a warrior can also quickly swap ona shield, go d and press shield wall if tank dies and then take the fight to finish, a warrior can also disarm mobs giving healer breathing room .

It can only be used occasionaly and doesnt give you huge breathing room, but it does stop wipes, also i have glyphed my fear so that i can use fear with no worries of pulling more mobs. A good fury warrior can be an asset , not as huge asset as a skilled rogue, but good enuff, if you play well.

I will answer that although Warriors can glyph and make them terrified instead of running away, the problem is that the CC is not always available because of the fact it's on an extensive cooldown. Compound that with the fact that it's a CC that is based on a PvP based number (The cc is only for 12 seconds if iirc), it isn't a 'true' CC in the sense of what CC is.

However I will not deny the use of the clutch situation if need be. I was just stating that the two classes that have no 'CC' per se are those two because quite simply, they don't have one. It sucks for the classes but it's a fundamental truth that both classes need to come and accept.

Ozonekiller
12-20-2010, 12:47 PM
This post deserves a spot in my limited macro bank that will get a keybind for the slow learners:
/p You're not in Northrend anymore! Please enlighten yourself:
/p http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?72714-DPS-and-you-A-guide

or something to that effect

Quinafoi
12-20-2010, 01:23 PM
I agree with most of your post however their is one thing I feel the need to point out since the picture painted isn't exactly complete in regards to crowd control.

Crowd Control is not limited to just the damage dealers, though traditionally gets assigned to them simply because they actually have the fewest things to be concerned with. Not that their role is any more difficult, but fundamentally the tank is always concerned with all targets that are free. The healer is concerned with all members of the party. The damage dealer can afford to be concerned about controling one or more targets while dealing damage to their primary target. A Druid tank, can use crowd control as well such as Hibernating on the pull, using Entangling Roots before the targets reach them with the glyphed instant cast version, as well as use Nature's Grasp while in bear form to root up to three additional mobs while moving out of their melee range. A Feral Druid tank could effectively crowd control five mobs on the pull. While they don't have the advantage of being able to renew their crowd control mid fight pull this does not exempt them from potentially needing to do that function, and even if it only buys a little time it is still less damage taken overall. The healer as well can do crowd control. How many times have you had a Holy or Discipline Priest use Shackle Undead, or a Restoration Shaman use Hex and/or Bind Elemental, or a Restoration Druid use Hibernate and/or Entangling Roots? Generally speaking the tank or healer won't do the crowd control because sharing balancing the workload and the number of things each individual is responsible for would tend to leave this job to the damage dealers.

The job of avoiding and reducing damage taken falls on everyone in the group. Regardless of if your little icon is a sword, a shield, or a little plus sign. Crowd control is one of the means of reducing incoming damage. It is cheaper for a healer to cast a single Hex, Roots, ect. than it is for them to cast 5 extra heals on the tank because the target was attacking the entire time.

Krenian
12-20-2010, 01:27 PM
Although valid points Quinafoi, you took it awfully roughly and expected me to say that it is ONLY the DPS's job to CC. Naturally, the Healers or tanks can CC as well and help out the group.

However this post was moreso dedicated to the DPS faction of the forums as I found mostly that DPS, being one myself, have this issue. In no way was I saying that the others groups cannot do the same.

Please know that you possibly took the tone of this text a bit wrongly and that it was meant in the fact that DPS SHOULD look into this as they will make themselves better player.

What you did just now is defend bad players and state that tanks should take the slack for our problems as well as DPS. It is a negative response and as such, try to be careful of your wording.

The words "First of all" begin immediately with a negative tone as you are now trying to argue. Discuss, fine. Argue on the fact that other classes can do the same when the guide spefically states DPS? And that's simply attacking one area of my guide as well? You can see why I somewhat look at your post and wonder why the attack.

EDIT: Oh I c wut u did thaer. Switch your post around like that. Cleveeeeeeer.

Quinafoi
12-20-2010, 01:33 PM
I am not saying that bad players can get away with being bad... I'm saying good players can be better regardless of their role.

Krenian
12-20-2010, 01:35 PM
Of course. That's why the guide really touches for everyone involved on the sole purpose that it's a reminder. This touches DPS sections on how to improve but in no uncertain terms does it mean that it doesn't involve other classes.

I wrote it to touch on DPS because I see the DPS do the most errors when it comes to this stuff. But some of the advice given could definitely be done by other class roles!

Crittable
12-20-2010, 03:19 PM
good guide, worth having for those who stumble across, people who are tanks and never have dps'd until now, and just as a good reference for us to link people in party/guild/game/etc to give them an idea of how to get better.

Last night, I was in a group where the hunter would CC the completely wrong mob, if any at all, and the feral druid + hunter would never leave the boss to down the adds (specifically in Grim Batol on the Orc/Dragon boss and the flame adds). Not to bash on this specific hunter or druid since I've had more than just these do this, they also wouldn't move out of damaging areas like the last boss in Grim Batol... instead of getting into the little swirly shadow thing, they stayed outside, behind the boss, and continued attacking while I, the tank, watched their health go down to 5% before they realized what they were doing wrong. It happened again on the second aoe. By then, the boss was almost dead, otherwise I would have whispered to my healer friend to just let them die and we'll finish it without them.

I believe that I will be making a macro with a link to this guide since I have to pug quite a bit. I appreciate the post Krenian and I, like Melvar, think it's "spot on".

Insahnity
12-20-2010, 03:49 PM
Maybe I am old and bitter after so many years on this game, but if you are at this site (i.e. take the time to research your class), you probably already know this already. It's good info, but unfortunately those that need to get it pounded into their skull will never see the light of this wonderful website. I've advertised this sites so many times, and by now I can tell those who are willing to learn and know that they will come here if pointed here. But by and large, those people don't make those mistakes in the first place, or if they do, they do not repeat it.

I am not saying all PuGs are bad. But the good players will make a mistake, and then question what they did wrong and then communicate, and therefore learn. Unfortunately, the bad ones will not, even if they should after you link this.

And finally, this is good work Kren, no doubt about it. I am just pissed that the effort will not really impact as many people the way I wish it would.

Kazeyonoma
12-20-2010, 04:42 PM
like i said in my previous post, if for nothing else, you can copy/paste this into your party after a failed pug and pray that they learn from their mistakes.

Krenian
12-20-2010, 06:48 PM
I actually posted this in the DPS section of the WoW forums. It's a cesspool but so far I've gotten good replies from it. Who knows, maybe it might fly off. I won't hold my breath.

Bashal
12-21-2010, 07:11 AM
I actually posted this in the DPS section of the WoW forums.

WTB wow forum link. :)

Krenian
12-21-2010, 07:14 AM
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1577522261

Slipped to the bottom of the second page. Man, WoW users are wankers sometimes. Complaints about 59710239471029347 different things but a decent guide? Psh, whatevs.

Erk.

Bashal
12-21-2010, 07:42 AM
Thanks, a shame that not many people responded.

Thegreatme
12-21-2010, 09:56 AM
One thing that I don't think you mentioned (I was reading fairly quickly so I might have skipped it) is the concept of playing for the group, not your self. What I mean by this is being able to do things like maintain sunders, or a demo shout or managing any mechanic that needs to be dealt with by a person, that wasn't specifically assigned even if it means a DPS loss. Healer mana as mentioned is incredibly important and any time you can make healing easier in some way, you should be doing it.

Krenian
12-21-2010, 10:01 AM
I did talk about the group thing but I didn't mention the mechanics of your class keeping your buffs. It is something that should be looked at but I was moreso looking at the idea of basic grouping and not dying by standing in the giant flaming ball of fire.

But what TGM says is a great point: Look at the buffs that your class does. Something you may want to look at is making sure that all the necessary buffs that will allow you to survive are up. Some buffs aren't not 'as' necessary as others but if you have something that could facilitate your job without sacrificing too much of your dps, then by all means do.

Any damage reducing ability that makes your healer love you for using less mana on the tank will surely be useful. Just be mindful when doing this that your DPS doesn't suffer greatly; a good way is to practice outside of combat just like practicing your CC and incorporating your skills in your rotation. I know I have to work on the times I am actually dealing with a global cooldown that I do not really know what to do; I normally Heroic Strike to do more damage, but sometimes it would be better to just Demoralize Shout most of the mobs so the damage is reduced.

Smart thinking will go a long way.

Sordel
01-07-2011, 08:41 AM
Given that this a guide aimed at DPS who may have got into bad habits I'd add this point:

In the lower game, a lot of DPS became very reliant on AOE effects, which tended to produce very large numbers with very little effort, and which matched up nicely with tanks, who also tended to pull big. Blizzard has changed AOE mechanics on some classes now to make them less desirable. Not only is AOE a big mana drain, but AOE also costs even more mana because it may make other mana-returning abilities unavailable. So it is now virtually impossible in a fight of any length to depend on AOE.

There is, however, another reason other than mana efficiency to target single enemies. Focused fire gives your tanks more mitigation and your healers more mana, because it is better for both tanks and healers if they are dealing with a group of five, then four, then three, then two, then one, then zero. If the DPS all AOE, then you are dealing with a group of five that may be doing damage continually until they all suddenly die. So the moral of this is: going for the biggest numbers possible as a dps is not always the best approach. It is nearly always better to kill one thing than to wound many things.

Reev
01-07-2011, 08:48 AM
Given that this a guide aimed at DPS who may have got into bad habits I'd add this point:

In the lower game, a lot of DPS became very reliant on AOE effects, which tended to produce very large numbers with very little effort, and which matched up nicely with tanks, who also tended to pull big. Blizzard has changed AOE mechanics on some classes now to make them less desirable. Not only is AOE a big mana drain, but AOE also costs even more mana because it may make other mana-returning abilities unavailable. So it is now virtually impossible in a fight of any length to depend on AOE.

There is, however, another reason other than mana efficiency to target single enemies. Focused fire gives your tanks more mitigation and your healers more mana, because it is better for both tanks and healers if they are dealing with a group of five, then four, then three, then two, then one, then zero. If the DPS all AOE, then you are dealing with a group of five that may be doing damage continually until they all suddenly die. So the moral of this is: going for the biggest numbers possible as a dps is not always the best approach. It is nearly always better to kill one thing than to wound many things.

Also, I might be seeing these things wrong, but in my recent experience, it seems people are doing higher single target dps than AoE dps now. AoE DPS is pretty much only meant to kill large groups of very low HP mobs, since they die quickly and single target would take longer with all the target switching. But on any targets with more than a few hit points, I think it actually may put out lower numbers now than single target (aside from tanks and such who essentially get "free" chaining effects).

Kazeyonoma
01-07-2011, 10:31 AM
Arms Warriors definitely can squeeze out more dps however while aoe'ing (though not recommended and because of their non-threat modifiers, my guild tanks and I have been finding dps warriors to actually be one of the more annoying classes to run 5 mans with) because of cleave mechanics, sweeping strikes, and bladestorm.

Sordel
01-08-2011, 12:19 PM
I think that the sort of player who would benefit from this guide may well see a drop in overall dps by switching from aoe to single-target dps. Single-target "rotations" (which, of course, aren't that rotational any more) are pretty hard to pull off properly without 1) research and 2) a lot of practice. (And I speak as someone still getting used to the druid eclipse cycle or finding the switch-point between a spriest's DoT cycle and Mind Spike.) My intention was to encourage dpses to stick with single-target dps even if they find it a lot harder to look good on Recount without chain-casting aoe.

Scottpoet
01-13-2011, 10:25 PM
Good guide. What interests me is how tanks operate once healers can operate through full pulls without any cc, and without going oom.
From what I have seen tanks deal significantly more damage when Vengeance fully stacks and they can use the full extent of their aoe abilities which gives them pretty impressive numbers.

iots
01-13-2011, 11:25 PM
I play a feral druid myself, haven't gotten around to actually leveling/gearing up another tanking classes but as a base of personal experience i've tanked with all of the classes in wrath but haven't gotten around to actually level up my alts with the annoying profession grinds that i still have in front of me(3x 85lvl atm).

Regardless, in terms of heroics ( since at least for now CC is absolutely obsolete in raiding environment ) the amount of mobs i can tank in a single pull depends on a few different things, the largest part of course is the gear.

In theory there are only 2 roles who's gear really matters on this case, the healer and the tank. It's rather straightforward, the better gear the tank has the more hits he can take, the better avoidance he has, the better threat (and thus dps) output he has. For healer the gear matter's quite alot, but in some cases it's more towards what class(spec if priest) they are as well ( it is very much easier for a paladin healer to keep a tank (or group) up through heavy damage than say a priest, in current live patch).

The other aspect that can and will make you able to do more larger pull is your own experience / knowledge of said instance. In large aspect there is always just a handful of packs in a said instance that deal the most damage to you. But in a lot of cases there are ways of completely nullifying said damage via 3 things.

1. Stuns = bash / hoj / cs / kidney / charge etc.
2. Interrupts = every dps class has one now, and so do most tank specs aswell(paladins only behind on live patch atm (?))
3. Focus Fire

There is without expection, always some mob that you can do one of the 3 things above on, be it the plaguebearers in LCoT, Seer's in GB(tbh not sure of the top of my head what was the nasty critter in there atm), or packs with healers like in ToT / VP. The "quickest" way of handling said packs, is always knowing beforehand when you'll be there, and saving your dps/survability cooldowns for them.

As an example, in my case i have barskin(-20% dmg taken), dodge on use trinket, survival instict (shieldwall), frenzied regeneration (laststand +/ small heal or with glyph more healing taken which i change around alot). Then for DPS i have berserk which turns my Mangle to a cleave = a +30k dps (depends alot on the pack) 'hammer it away'- skill. Which i cycle through depending on the pack im on, or the efficiency that my healer has.

All in all, currently i can rush through any instance atm without any sort of CC if i want to. In my eyes, the CC concept is there for people with lesser gear. It serves as a gap on after you ding 85 and get to 329lvl range that makes you able to queue for heroics. Which is the time when you want to use every CC in your groups arsenal, to make sure your instance clearing goes smoothly. But once you actually gear yourself up and reach enough gear, CC really isn't mandatory anymore if you choose so.

Sorry if this explanation is too much offtopic. :)

iots
01-13-2011, 11:52 PM
Now, to the DPS aspect of it all.

One major thing that changed in the expansion, that really impacted the instance clearing is the actual DPS numbers. As a general rule, depending on the class and spec, you could just go in press 1 button and boast around on how awesome you are with your big numbers.

In terms of the numbers today, in most cases it's no longer beneficial to spam complete aoe when you do a pull with more than 3 mobs anymore. But depending on the class aswell, it most often isn't require for you do just single target DPS either. The other term of damage dealing which was to some extent shoved to the AOE camp back in the day.

Cleaving, the type of damage when you are doing damage on one target but you are the same time doing splash damage to other mobs in the close distance. This is the major reason why all tanks are so high on the damage meters atm, but it's very subjective in terms of DPS classes since most don't really have this option as of late. Warriors do have this option, and atm when they get past the gimped state that is 'freshly dinged 85' they are a very large opponent on the threat meters on larger pulls. Retribution paladins, might the only second candidate to this, on the top of my head i can't really think of any other class that has other benefits through their base skills.

Which is pretty sums it up that if you want to do some insane hc grind, stack up on fury warriors + retadins. Feral druid to tank it all and paladin healer. Class stacking ftw.

tweaked
02-15-2011, 04:05 AM
I am so upset this information had to be posted.


a few tips, If your bottom dps, your doing it wrong. Unless your in a top 75 guild, theres a very good chance that there is someone in your raid not doing it right

If you want to actually dps proper? Its more then just learning a few rotations and being able to pull them off on the current raid encounters. Get professions that are an optimal boost, I myself took leatherworking/jc, God knows how easy it is to take a DK alt and level professions on it.

Dont skimp out on enchants(I say that but i dont have peerless qq im saving up :< ). Stay active on theory crafting, im willing to bet the rest of the gold i need for peerless that at least 1/5 of your 25 or 1/3 of your 10 man is running on aged information.

If you want to be a legit dps, you need to put in as much effort as a tank or healer, I've done all three roles, in very successful guilds throughout expansions, if anyone says dps is easy then they be doing it wrong.

Krenian
02-15-2011, 06:00 AM
I am so upset this information had to be posted.

I'm curious: Why?

There are tons of people who are relatively new to the game or who have honestly forgotten/forget that our roles are more than they were. It is as much the fault of the player as it is the fault of the previous expansion being so newbie friendly and allowing people to live through mistakes.

Cataclysm is a whole new beast that allows you to realize that they aren't kidding. And thus this information to allow people to brush things off and remind all of us on how to do it. Even the best of us would go and forget things. Nothing to be upset about, it just needs to be reminded and this is what it is for: A friendly reminder.

Dedic
02-15-2011, 08:04 AM
I think this could help some people. Hell, even the veteran dps out there should read about managing threat. I'm sick of everyone trying to top the recount list without concern for survival, and so are a lot of healers out there.

tweaked
02-15-2011, 01:59 PM
Its upsetting from a player who has played at a higher level. If someone cant figure out these things on their own, odds are they are the same player that thinks fillling out a 15 min guild application is "too much work" Or looking at theorycrafting is for newbs because they cant figure it out on their own.


While your at it, why dont you tell them to keep their eyes open while driving.


I guess what im trying to say, is new player tips like this belong in a forum more orientated towards new players. If someones looking at these forums and threads, Im sure they understand that "fire is bad" and "defensive cooldowns belong on your bars even as a dps/healer"

Quinafoi
02-15-2011, 02:24 PM
I guess what im trying to say, is new player tips like this belong in a forum more orientated towards new players. If someones looking at these forums and threads, Im sure they understand that "fire is bad" and "defensive cooldowns belong on your bars even as a dps/healer"

There are 133 members currently signed into TankSpot. There are 3,247 guests.

You are operating under the assumption that only those that participate in these read these forums read these forums. The audiance is a lot larger than you think. And not only do discussions like this help people directly, but also indirectly. Even if you yourself don't need to be told standing in fire is bad, you can also use discussions like this as a reference when telling others who do not.

Krenian
02-16-2011, 07:18 AM
Its upsetting from a player who has played at a higher level. If someone cant figure out these things on their own, odds are they are the same player that thinks fillling out a 15 min guild application is "too much work" Or looking at theorycrafting is for newbs because they cant figure it out on their own.


While your at it, why dont you tell them to keep their eyes open while driving.


I guess what im trying to say, is new player tips like this belong in a forum more orientated towards new players. If someones looking at these forums and threads, Im sure they understand that "fire is bad" and "defensive cooldowns belong on your bars even as a dps/healer"

I feel like you are slighted towards the fact that I posted this guide to help people out and that to you, it makes no sense to be in a forum that in all regards, you believe everyone knows about this.

When in fact, as Quinafoi states, there are many users out there that are actually not registered for the site, have access to the DPS forums, and as such, browse the forum. Furthermore, this is a DPS guide for DPSers. The logic you are using that this shouldn't be in this forum because people in here should know the information is based solely on your opinion and not on solid facts.

Fact: DPS, no matter what level of skill, die in certain situations that they could have avoided.
Fact: No matter the raid, you still have to get back into the route of learning your class after every expansion. Why do you think raids and top tier level guilds keep wiping over and over? It's to learn what to do and what not to do. Part of that is knowing when is good to do DPS, and when it's good to survive.
Fact: Wrath of the Lich king, was by all standards a very forgiving expansion that did not punish people as hard as Cataclysm has so far. You can see it in the fact that unlike Wrath, Cataclysm healers are running out of mana and threat is more of an issue. These were near non issues in Wrath.

So yes, the guide may not be suited for all. Hell, if you don't do this, that means you're a great player. But to presume that everyone that comes to this forum should have an idea of what to do is basing it on stipulations and self-served bias.

Gibilgashru
03-09-2011, 09:13 AM
While not exactly a smooth read, I applaud Krenian for taking the time to start this thread. It is nebulus in its approach but fairly accurate nonetheless. Players who run with guildmates normally won't have the communication issues the author mentioned. That's not the case in PUGs. Those who don't have to PUG should thank their lucky stars and refrain from trampling the less fortunate underfoot.

Whether running with guildies or PUG'ing there are still highlights related to battlefield awareness that strike true: stay out of the stuff, and focus less on posting high numbers and more on contributing to the ebb and flow of the fight. Cata forced teamwork to the fore. Krenian is correct with the allusion that LK raids getting nerfed into submission - combined with Wrath patches making it ridiculously easy to gear up - made Cata heroics & raids a bit overwhelming at times for the everyman.

Patience and communication are a must in Cata. Players who scoff at mention of this should probably get out more. This is a good thread.

Krenian
03-10-2011, 10:43 AM
While not exactly a smooth read, I applaud Krenian for taking the time to start this thread.

Okie dokie, this is starting to bug me.

I'm not actually calling you out or anything but this has been commented upon by a lot of people and I'm frankly very curious as to where people are having a hard time reading the information. Where is it that I am failing at my writing skills?

Again, this is a genuine question that I would like you to point out so I can improve in the guide. Especially considering i'm planning on actually writing novels, I want to improve my writing skills and had this proofread by my English minor Fiancee so I wanna see what's going on here. (Granted she studied more literature than writing but still.)

To be honest with all of you, I am more than willing to take comments about my writing skills. That's something in no way I would bash your heads in and say "NO YOU'RE WRONG!". Feel free to PM me with suggestions, comments and reviews that you think I should look at when writing things. I'm always open to critiques to improve myself.

Cyclonite
03-11-2011, 02:45 PM
I'm old school with regard to the tank marking and calling the shots with everyone else following his/her lead. But ever since Patch 3.3 gave us Dungeonfinder, the argument for PUG players having to mark their own CC might be a valid one. At least initially if the tank is either unprepared or pretending to be a Zerg god who is better served marking fire hydrants.

When CC is used, I prefer CC pulls both as DPS and as a tank: incapacitate the chosen targets first, then draw the rest away so the AoEers are free to unload without fear of breaking crowd control. The key to success is DPS cooling their jets. Not giving the tank time to position the remaining mobs out of AoE range from the CC'd targets before they open fire = fail.

With a Survival Hunter just reaching 85, I am only now beginning to understand the nuances of where and how the toon fits in instances. I agree that switching targets to spread the aggro around is a smart practice, saving feign for emergencies. Oh yeah... and turning the pet's growl off helps the tank hold enough threat to kite mobs away from CC too.

For those who have been playing a hunter since they were an embryo... the rest will likely bore you to tears. But for those of us who aren't there yet... I'm just trying to contribute (hopefully) some applicable pew pew.

I start in Aspect of the Hawk and lead with Black Arrow to DoT and get my pet moving; followed by Ice trap (AoE) or Freeze trap (single target) to help proc Lock & Load:
- If Lock & Load happens I fire Explosive Shot twice - with Rapid Fire and/or Serpent Sting in between to fill up the CD space.
- If Lock & Load doesn't happen I'll either (a) hit Rapid Fire and setttle into a DoT + instant cast party mix with a trap thrown in, or (b) DoT up, launch a trap, then start looking for stray mobs who might benefit from a Concussion Shot or Wyvern Sting.

I realize that Arcane Shot is part of the Lock & Load proc with Explosive Shot. But I choose to substitute a 2nd Explosive Shot in the L&L rotation (with Rapid Fire and/or Serpent Sting as spacers) in place of Arcane Shot because of Essence of the Viper's elemental damage bonus. Mastery actually means something to Survival Hunters.

To regenerate focus while still DPSing:
- If Serpent Sting is active, I hit Steady Shot followed by Cobra Shot.
- If Serpent Sting isn't active, I hit Steady Shot plus Serpent Sting followed by Cobra Shot.

Rinse and repeat to regen focus.

A concern mentioned in the original post is DPSing while having to move about. If I have focus built up then it's a no brainer - I simply rattle off my favorite instant cast shots while strafing. But if focus is low, Steady Shot & Cobra Shot can't be used while moving in Aspect of the Pack because they aren't instant cast. In fact they have 1.63 second channeling cast times. That's an eternity in fights where mobs or bosses are surounding you with damage that must be egressed.

Enter Aspect of the Fox, which allows StS & CoS to be fired while moving. Like the warrior stance dance, I find switching between Aspect of the Hawk and Aspect of the Fox a necessary evil in long fights where I can't remain stationary. I do what I can to remain in Aspect of the Hawk as much as possible. But when I need to regen focus on the run, Aspect of the Fox is a butt saver.

Gibilgashru
03-11-2011, 03:55 PM
Minor stuff really: "Use them to good use and establish your own icon and say that you will be CCing this target..." If my remark offended, please accept my sincerest apology as it was not meant derogatorily.

Krenian
03-11-2011, 04:08 PM
Not offended at all! :)

Like I said, I'm always trying to improve and now reading what you quoted, I can see where it could be hard to read because of the multiple 'and'.

Cyclonite
03-11-2011, 04:25 PM
Investigating the Rapid Fire/Serpent Sting filler a bit more. Jeez... I thought I was done with math when I graduated!

Gibilgashru
03-11-2011, 04:30 PM
Thank you kindly. As you are interested in helpful feedback, multiple occurrences of the word "use" is also a bit of a speedbump. If I may, it might be rewritten:

"Announcing both your CC target as well as your preferred icon to the party..." then close the sentence with its benefit.

Cheers!

Krenian
03-11-2011, 04:31 PM
Awesome, thank you.

I'm always ALWAYS looking for feedback when it comes to my writing skills. Many people don't know this but I want to branch off and start writing full time when money allows me to. As such, any improvements I may be able to do and people can catch up would do nothing but benefit me.

Feel free to comment on any guide that I write a quick pm. I know I use a lot of words too often lol

Gromblee
03-14-2011, 03:06 AM
Great article Kren. As a shadow priest I found a tank that pulled 2 of the casters in H deadmines, I know these as party killers so I took upon myself to MC one to beat down the other and not let her go until she was the last mob standing. This follows your line of thought here. I could have just DPS'd to a possible wipe due to dead tank but chose to CC instead regardless of what that did to my DPS. This decision was made "for the good of the party" and to let a mob grab aggro and tank a few other mobs in the bargin. I believe this happened due to either to a less experienced tank that was either unfamiliar with CC options available in group or mob abilities and kill order. Once again thank you for the quicky guide / reminder to not stand in fire. :)

Katzazi
03-14-2011, 06:58 AM
Well good tanks with a lot of raid gear can do this groups with out CC, now. But that's probably one of the few trash groups left in 5mans where I think CC is a good thing to use even then.

Crittable
03-14-2011, 02:38 PM
Grim Batol can be fairly difficult as well. Hence the reason that I generally banish one of the elementals on my warlock whey they are pulled to the tank. That's one CC that won't be broken until I break it or it runs its course :-)

FatŠ
03-18-2011, 01:19 PM
Krenian (http://www.tankspot.com/member.php?6857-Krenian)

Nice one, this should be on every forum to start with not only for dps but all classes in case they might forget again that this a team based game and you need to work together 9+ everything can get some improvement hey ;-)

regards

Kaimana
04-06-2011, 07:32 PM
I like this thank you.... I will try and practice it.....thanks again

Christelle
05-13-2011, 11:02 AM
Really good stuff in here. I was Wrath Holy Priest and healed majority of the time and since Cata came out I went Shadow and DPS now. I cna say Cata is a whole new monster and there is a lot to learn. I do agree with everyone that communication is a must with the new dungeons.

ultrasloth7
07-04-2011, 09:02 AM
OMG, all my fustrations in Cata have been addressed right here. I mainly play a holy paladin healer. Most often the DPS are total assholes. While my situations are drastic, they are starting to become far to common. Any game where we get an intelligent tank who talks strategy and communicates well to me often get berrated "Just ****ing pull" "WTF R U WAITING FOR" "ATTACK SOMETHING DUMB ****" (Note: those are all real comments made to tanks in my last few games.) So when the dps does something a I recognize as stupid, it immediately becomes the tank's or the healer's (my) fault. And when all hell breaks loose, I'm healing the tank, expectations just got ridiculous, I had a hunter whining I didn't heal his pet!!!!!!! If I try to point out that DPS made a mistake, i get kicked. It has gotten so bad, that I've only finished 1 cata dungeon, during which we had 3 different tanks. One of them was bashed so hard by our retard DPS that he mass pulled and rage-quit, leaving us to die. WHich I'm not defending, but the DPS really deserved it.

Anyway, that is my rage rant on DPS. This guide needs to be read by evry DPS on my server. But If I make that suggestion I'll probably get kicked....

Quinafoi
07-04-2011, 10:08 AM
You don't need a little dagger icon next to your portait in order to be an ass. You can be an ass with a little shield or a little plus sign as well. The role you play says nothing about your character as a person. You would do well to remember that.

Cyclonite
07-13-2011, 09:01 AM
I have a Pally tank that's taken a ton of abuse in PUGs because of my patience waiting for healers to mana or CC marking instead of charging right in. Case in point... recently a huntard in Violet Hold (before the 4.2 patch) had his pet on aggresive with growl on and wouldn't turn them off. I politely asking him if he would do so and he told me to stop QQing and just do my job.

Something Blizz needs to fix is the player kick function. It sucks when a player everyone wants to kick can't be kicked because his/her kick timer is still on cooldown. They need to get rid of that timer and add a "penalty box" of sorts that disallows an account (not just a toon) to enter a PUG for at least one hour once they've been kicked more than twice in a row - regardless of time between PUGs.

What I've learned in RL (which has been incessantly reinforced over my 6 years of playing this game) is this: there is no cure for stupid.

So now my tank has a library of party chat macros I call upon during fights to hopefully quell QQing. If they don't work, I won't rage quit. I'll just click my final macro apologizing to everyone that I have better things to do than babysit pubescent nerd rage, bid them a fine day and hope they enjoy their next 20 minutes revisiting the queue. Then after the fight I'll drop... because there are WAY better things to do than put up with their... stuff.

Krenian
08-28-2012, 05:45 AM
Seeing how I'm not really playing WoW anymore, I feel like I cannot actually be a judge of the upcoming expansion involving the roles of DPS. With the fact that I haven't touched any dungeon and do not know the feeling of how they flow, I cannot keep this thread stickied and have it have my stamp of approval. Although most of this stuff should be common knowledge, I'm going to remove it from the sticky zone.

I suggest any one of you that has a good grasp that would like to explain the basics of DPSing in MoP to try their hand at this. If they ask for advice, I can freely give that; it's mostly common sense anyway.

In any case, I hope this guide has helped you through your Cataclysm work. Happy hunting in MoP!