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Thegreatme
12-13-2010, 02:57 AM
Introduction




So, some of you may or may not have read the fury warrior guide I made for WotLK. For those of you that did, I intend to be a lot more in depth, and a lot less awful this time around.
For those of you who did not read my WotLK fury warrior guide, the basic premise is that this guide is intended for fury warriors looking to succeed in a PvE raiding environment. My goal is to provide as much accurate information as possible in a succinct manner. That being said there is a lot to cover so either read this guide in chunks, or find yourself a large block of time to read this and make sure you understand it.




Table of Contents

The Video Guide
Talent Selection
Glyphs
Itemization
Rotation
Macros
UI
Useful Resources
Encounter specific Tricks/Tactics (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?72537-The-Cataclysmic-fury-Warrior-Guide&p=478067#post478067)
Mastery boosting/Gurthalak's and you (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?72537-The-Cataclysmic-fury-Warrior-Guide&p=478068#post478068)
Last "major" update: 4/1/12

The Video Guide


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhiOqAEWlx0










Talent Selection




Suggested spec:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LG0cZcrrcszkMfdZb



http://www.tankspot.com/http://i56.tinypic.com/iwhkcy.jpghttp://i56.tinypic.com/iwhkcy.jpg




Titans Grip (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=46917) vs Single Minded Fury (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=81099)

Currently Titans Grip is doing more damage, and has much better weapon options than Single Minded Fury does. IF you are dead set on playing as single minded fury, it's still viable, but honestly, just go Titans Grip.



3/3 Deep Wounds (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=12867) vs 3/3 Incite (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=50687)


Get 3/3 deep wounds. Even though crit values are pretty low right now the math is suggesting that the third point in deep wounds is more or less blowing the third point of incite out of the water.



[I]
About the Recommended filler talents, and why I chose them:


Please note that just because a talent isn’t “recommended” does not mean it’s bad; there are sound arguments that can be made for all of the non-required talents.

Rude Interruption (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=61221):On any fight that requires interrupting, having rude interruption is pretty much amazing, it’s fairly self explanatory.

Piercing Howl (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=12323): Any time there are kite-able adds that can be slowed this ability is incredibly useful, there aren’t a lot of fights that would get a lot of use out of this ability currently, but I have no doubt in my mind that there will be encounters where this ability will shine.

Heroic Fury (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=60970): Any time there is a lot of movement involved (meaning pretty much every fight) heroic fury can substantially increase your up time on a target, and thereby increase your DPS.

Meat Cleaver (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=12950): Any time you are going to be able to use cleave you want this talent, simply put.

Incite (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=50687): This could probably be considered a required talent, but if I absolutely needed to drop a DPS talent to get some other situational talents, this would be my first choice.

Field Dressing (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=84580): Pretty self explanatory, it helps you not die.

Blitz (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=80977): Can be useful for getting an extra rage boost at the very start of an encounter

Glyphs




Prime glyphs:

Basically no variance for what you can viably pick:
Bloodthirst (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43416)
Raging Blow (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43432)
Slam (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43423)
These are the only 3 prime glyphs that affect abilities we use.


Major glyphs:

Lots of solid options, go with your personal preference (* denotes what I personally use)

*Cleaving (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43414): Any time there are more than two targets within close proximity this glyph is awesome (unless you are supposed to CC those mobs obviously).

*Colossus Smash (http://www.wowhead.com/item=63481): Any time you have to sustain a sunder stack you want this glyph.

*Deathwish (http://www.wowhead.com/item=67483): It saves healer mana, which can then be used to help your raid not wipe. Get this.

Victory Rush (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43431): Saves healer mana, though on most fights it's not going to be as useful as glyph of Deathwish. If you don't have to sunder, I would suggest this glyph.


Minor Glyphs:

Again, lots of solid options (* denotes what I personally use)

Battle (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43395): Honestly you probably aren't going to need this because you will more than likely be using battle shout on cooldown for rage, so really this doesn't change anything for you unless you don't need the rage but need to sustain the buff, or if you expect to die before the end of the fight (which shouldn't happen).

*Berserker Rage (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43396): GET THIS. getting a rage boost that's off the GCD is awesome, and you can use it to build a rage bar out of combat, the rage gained is also effected by mastery.

*Bloody Healing (http://www.wowhead.com/item=43412): It helps you not die, and saves a bit of healer mana.

*Furious sundering (http://www.wowhead.com/item=45793): if you have to sunder, get this.

Command (http://www.wowhead.com/item=49084): Same as glyph of battle.




Itemization



Stat Priorities

Hit(till 8%) > Expertise(till 26) > Strength >Crit > Hit > Haste > Mastery


The above priority list seems too complicated, can I have a simplified list?
Sure.

1) Get 8% hit (5% from gear+3% from precision)
2) Get 26 Expertise (780 Rating)
3) Get lots of Strength
4) Get Crit
5) Get More Hit
6) Get Haste
7) Get Mastery



What gems should I use?


You should use what ever gems are going to activate your meta gem, then for the rest of your sockets use what ever gems result in the largest DPS increase.

But that didn't answer the question

I know. What stats result in the largest DPS increase varies greatly depending on what your stats currently are, so I can't accurately make a blanket statement about what gems are going to be the best for you, that being said the generalized method for gemming is as follows:

Meta Socket:

Reverberating Shadowspirit Diamond (http://www.wowhead.com/item=68779)


Red Sockets:

Bold Chimera's Eye (http://www.wowhead.com/item=52255) (Jewelcrafter only)
Bold Inferno Ruby (http://www.wowhead.com/item=52206)



Blue Sockets:
Only match the socket if the bonus is worthwhile; otherwise use a strength gem
1)Etched (http://www.wowhead.com/item=52213)Demonseye (http://www.wowhead.com/item=52213)
2)Rigid Ocean Sapphire (http://www.wowhead.com/item=52235)(only use this gem if you need it to get above 8% hit)

Yellow Sockets:
Only match the socket if the bonus is worthwhile; otherwise use a strength gem
1)Inscribed Ember Topaz (http://www.wowhead.com/item=52222)

general gemming proceedure for non-red sockets:

Items with 1 socket:

-if the socket bonus is +10str or more, and the socket is yellow, gem for the socket bonus. If the socket is blue, then either gem for the bonus, or gem pure strength, I need to confirm the resulting gains.
-if the socket bonus is +10 crit or more, gem for the socket bonus.
-if the socket bonus is +10 hit or more, gem for the socket bonus.
-if the socket bonus is +20 mastery/haste, gem for the socket bonus.
-everything else gem pure strength

Items with two sockets:

- if the bonus is +20 str or more, gem for the bonus
- if the bonus is +20 crit or more, and the sockets are yellow and/or red, gem for the bonus.
- everything else gem pure strength



What enchants should I get?


Head:
Arcanum of The Wildhammer (http://www.wowhead.com/item=62422) (Alliance)
Arcanum of the Dragonmaw (http://www.wowhead.com/item=62368) (Horde)
(http://www.wowhead.com/item=62368)
Shoulders:
Greater Inscription of Jagged Stone (http://www.wowhead.com/item=62345)

Cloak:
1)Greater Critical Strike (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74247)
2)Critical Strike (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74230)

Chest:
1)Peerless Stats (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74250)
2)Mighty Stats (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74191)

Bracers:
1)Major Strength (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=96261)
2)Greater Critical Strike (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74248)
3)Critical Strike (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74201)
4) Hit or expertise as needed in order to reach caps

Gloves:
1)Mighty Strength (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74254)
2)Exceptional Strength (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74212)

Belt:
Ebonsteel Belt Buckle (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=76439)

Legs:
Dragonscale Leg Armor
(http://www.wowhead.com/spell=78477)
Boots:
(run speed enchants are always the best)
1) Lavawalker (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74253)
2) Earthen Vitality (http://www.wowhead.com/item=52743)

Main Hand:
1)Landslide (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74246)
2)Hurricane (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74223)

Off Hand:
1)Landslide (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74246)
2)Hurricane (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74223)

Rotation




Note:
BT = Bloodthirst (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=23881)
RB = Raging Blow (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=85288)
CS = Colossus Smash (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=86346)
HS = Heroic Strike (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=78)
GCD= Global Cooldown (1.5 seconds)
Slam = Implies using a Bloodsuge (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=46915) proc (Read: an Instant Slam (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1464), as opposed to hard casting slam)

FOR TITANS GRIP
BT > CS > RB >Slam > HS

On an exact time-line:

0.0-Colossus Smash (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=86346)
1.5-Bloodthirst (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=23881)
3.0-Raging Blow (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=85288)
4.5-Bloodthirst (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=23881)
6.0-Slam (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1464)
7.5-Bloodthirst (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=23881)
9.0-Raging Blow (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=85288)
10.5-Bloodthirst (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=23881)
12.0-Slam (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1464)
13.5-Bloodthirst (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=23881)
15.0-Raging Blow (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=85288)
16.5-Bloodthirst (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=23881)
18.0-Slam (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1464)
19.5-Bloodthirst (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=23881)
21.0-go to 0.0 (Colossus Smash (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=86346))


If you don't think you can remember that whole timescale, just remember:

Use CS more or less on cooldown
BT-RB-BT-Slam- repeat


FOR SINGLE MINDED FURY

SMF's Slam damage is much higher, it puts its damage in line with RB damage, making it better than RB because it costs zero rage. Because of this the best course of action really isn't using a set rotation, and instead using a priority system.

1) Keep Bloodthirst (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=23881) on cooldown
2) Use Colossus Smash (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=86346) whenever available
3) Use Slam (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1464) whenever available
4) Use Raging Blow (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=85288) whenever you can't use a BT/CS/Slam
BT > CS > Slam >RB >HS



Sub 20%
Use Colossus Smash (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=86346) on cooldown and spam Execute (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=5308) until you have 5 stacks of executioner. From there, depending on how much rage you are generating and what gear you have, you might need to do a few extra things besides spamming execute.

- If you are generating more than 20 rage per second, just keep spamming execute and Colossus Smash. (If there is a lot of raid damage going out and/or you have lots of hit rating, do this)
- If you have the 4pc t11 set bonus make sure you are using RB at least once every 30 seconds to keep your stack.
- If you are generating less than 20 rage per second, any time that you do not have 30 rage you should use RB>BT>Slam for that GCD. (This is because a RB or a BT does more damage than a 20 rage execute)
- If you get a battle trance proc, use it on execute, not Heroic Strike.
- If you are forced to use RB/BT a lot due to rage issues, make sure that you are not losing your stack of executioner, even if it means using a low rage execute.
(there are some major revisions that need to be made for this, stay tuned)



Commonly asked questions about the rotation



What should I do if I am not enraged, and therefore can't use Raging Blow?

if BT is on cooldown, and you can't use RB, use a bloodsurge proc if you have one. if you don't, then either do nothing, or use that GCD for debuff management on your target or something.




What about Heroic Strike (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=78)?

HS should be used when ever you get a battle trance proc, and when ever you have excess rage.


How will I know when I have "excess rage"?

Unfortunately the correct answer is basically "after spending a ton of time practicing you will be able to have a good feel for how much rage you are generating, and then be able to know when the best time to use HS is."

However, as a generalized blanket statement, if you have more than 65 rage, that is the time to use Heroic Strike.
Shouldn’t we use slam every time we get a Bloodsuge (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=46915)proc instead of using procs after every second BT for Titans Grip?

Nope.

Why?

When you delay the use of the 2nd BT, you get a rotation that looks like this:

0.0 BT
1.5 RB
3.0 Slam (BT comes off CD)
4.5 BT (-1/2 BT)
6.0 Slam
7.5 RB (BT comes off CD)
9.0 BT(-1/2 BT)
Etc.

By delaying the 2nd BT, you actually end up losing a full BT every time this happens, and because the potential gain is only 1 extra slam, which hits for less that BT, it is a DPS loss to delay the use of the 2nd BT.

Please keep in mind that the above statement is assuming that you have the rage to use the second BT, if you do not have the rage to do it, but you have a Bloodsurge proc; then by all means use that proc, because some damage is better than no damage.




What ability should I use when I get a Battle Trance (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=12964) proc?

Heroic Strike (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=78)

Why?

Heroic Strike (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=78) has the lowest damage per rage of any of our abilities, even though it's damage is really high. Because it's rage cost is so inefficient, it makes using HS on Battle Trance (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=12964) procs the most efficient use of that proc. Also because the fact that
Heroic Strike (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=78) is off the GCD, it means that you can use a Battle Trance (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=12964) on a HS, and use the rage that you saved for a RB.

If Heroic Strike happens to be on cooldown when you get your Battle Trance (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=12964) proc, use it on a Raging Blow.


Please note that Battle Trance currently has the following bugs associated with it:

If you use your Battle Trance (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=12964) proc on a Bloodthirst (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=23881), that Bloodthirst (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=23881) will not be able to proc a new Battle Trance (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=12964). (this may have been fixed, needs comfirmation)

What about Inner Rage (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1134)?

Use it when ever you need to dump rage really really quickly. If you are lazy you can macro it in to HS, but that's up to you.


What if I have the t13 2set bonus?

That changes EVERYTHING


Having 20 rage HS's is a huge deal, and because of the up times that you can achieve with inner rage, it has impacts on everything from itemization, to rotation.

Itemization implications:

rage generation is even more valuable, as ideally you can fit 15 HS's in to an inner rage. Hit is arguably better than crit, and haste is just slightly behind crit. while items with hit/crit on them are still going to be the best itemized, the fact that hit is at the very least equal to crit is a huge deal. if you choose to prioritize hit >crit, then you should know that once you reach the spell hit cap of 17%, crit will absolutely pull ahead of hit. This is because you probably have a gurthilak if you have that much hit, and the tentacles attacks are affected by your spell hit, so once you reach the cap, additional hit doesn't benefit your tentacle procs.

I personally do not subscribe to this itemization scheme, and prefer to itemize crit>hit, and while I can't prove that it's the better way to go, the fact that as of typing this for 6 of the 8 fights in DS, I'm ranked 10th or better in the world as fury, I can certainly prove that crit>hit is still viable.

Rotation implications:

I'm going to be assuming your TG here, which you probably should be in DS.

when inner rage is up, your rotation priority changes, the goal here is to maximize the number of HS's that go out without drastically reducing your GCD based damage.


slam> RB
A slam plus a HS is the same rage cost as a single RB, and is more damage.
Battle shout>Slam
this may seem strange, how a non damaging ability be better than a damaging one?
Battle shout grants 30 rage, which with IR converts to 1.5 HS, And while you won't see the damage during that specific GCD, 1.5 HS is more damage than 1 slam.
One thing to note is that because IR and BS have the exact same cooldown, you should have a shout available for every single inner rage.


When inner rage is down, the rotation goes back to normal, though you should be working on pooling rage for the next IR.


Macros




Retaliation

#showtooltip Retaliation
/cast [nostance:1] Battle Stance; [nostance:3] Berserker Stance
/cast [stance:1] Retaliation

Intervene


#showtooltip intervene
/cast [nostance:2] Defensive Stance; [help] Intervene; [target=targettarget, help] Intervene


Shield Wall

#showtooltip Shield Wall
/stopattack
/cast [stance:2] Shield Wall; Defensive Stance
/stopmacro [equipped:Shields]
/equip INSERT SHIELDS NAME HERE
/attack




Intercept/Heroic Fury

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=1 Intercept, Heroic Fury, Heroic Fury, Heroic Fury


Slam

#showtooltip Slam
/cast slam
/stopcasting







UI

I'm not really going to rehash what was said in the video, but what I will do is give you links to some addons that will do the things that were mentioned in the video

My UI:
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?59916-Thegreatme-UI&p=498862#post498862 (http://www.filefront.com/17643781/TGM-UI.rar/)
please note that I will not help you troubleshoot any issues with setting up my UI.


Rage tracking/unit frames:

Pitbull4 (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/pitbull4.aspx)
IceHUD (http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info8149-IceHUD.html)
Shadowed unit frames (http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info13494-ShadowedUnitFrames.html)


Proc tracking/Enrage tracking:

Power Auras (http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info8579-PowerAurasClassic.html)
SBF (satrina buff frame) (http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info12524-SBF3.2Beta.html)
Elkano's Buff Bars (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/elkbuffbars.aspx)


Cooldown Tracking:

OmniCC (http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info4836-OmniCC.html)
Cooldown Count (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/cooldowncount.aspx)
CoolLine Cooldowns (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/coolline-cooldowns.aspx)
Useful Resources:

Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f81/) the place to go for the latest theorycrafting and math
Landsoul Coaching (http://www.landsoulcoaching.com/) if you feel like spending some money, or are lucky enough to find a major bug in landsoul's spreadsheet like I did, the compendium is pretty much amazing.
Landsoul's Spreadsheet (http://www.landsoulcoaching.com/spreadsheet) hands down the best fury dps simulator available. also see the thread dedicated to the spreadsheet on EJ (http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t124053-updated_2_20_fury_dps_spreadsheet_3_0_1a/)

Thegreatme
12-13-2010, 03:07 AM
Encounter Specific Tricks/Tactics

If you happen to have some clever tricks for maximizing your DPS on any encounter, or just in general, I want to hear about it. If I think it's a useful thing to include, then I will add it and give you credit for it.

Most of the stuff below is for heroic mode, as that's the content I run, though a lot of it should be applicable to the normal mode version of each fight.

General Tactics:


- always mastery boost your first death wish (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?72537-The-Cataclysmic-fury-Warrior-Guide&p=478068#post478068)

- You can start any fight with 100 rage if you spend a while out of combat just spamming berserker rage/battle shout. One way to speed up the rage generation is by swapping to a couple pieces with lots of mastery.

- Because heroic leap is not on the GCD, you an viably use it on CD for every fight ever to maximize DPS, it's moderately tricky to execute, as hitting any of your other abilities cancels the targeting circle, meaning you need to do it in between a GCD.

- Try to time your death wish/CS usage so that you can use two CS's during each death wish, this generally means you will have to delay using one of them.



Morchok:
-Use shattering throw and heroic throw during black blood.

Zon'ozz:
-Maximize boss uptime as much as possible

Yor'sahj:
-Delay recks/ deathwish's for black ooze sets, use discretion as to not delay the usage too long as to lose a whole deathwish.
Use fetish over creche

Hagara:
-Don't leap back in when a frost/lightning phase ends, use intercept. save the leap for ice tombs.

Ultraxion:
be awesome

Warmaster Blackhorn:
-Time target swaps before adds charge to never delay auto attacks
-Time leaps/WW's with gripped sappers.
-Use fetish over creche.

Spine of Deathwing:
-Time inner rage's for burn phases
-When the nuclear blast is casting just auto attack to cap rage before running away
-If you're trying to rank, take everything you've learned not to do on this fight, and do those things.

Madness of Deathwing:
-If blistering tentacles are up and cataclysm is not being cast, you can swap to them and cleave off of them for extra spell weaving+ the cleave damage.
-About half the time when killing bolts you can cleave and hit the arm/wing tentacles
-On the yellow platform you can cleave the parasites and hit the arm tentacle
-After cleaving through the first set of fragments, weave cleaves in to maintain your meat cleaver stack for the bloods.

Thegreatme
12-13-2010, 03:07 AM
MASTERY BOOSTING


you've probably heard about it, or maybe you haven't. but I finally have some free time, so let's talk about mastery boosting.

What is it?
Mastery boosting is the process of having a gear set with a lot of mastery specifically so you can use death wish in that set before entering combat, then switching to a standard set of gear.

Why does it work?

When you cast deathwish, it checks your mastery and increases your damage accordingly, it only checks your mastery when you cast it, so if you for any reason have less mastery after you cast it, nothing changes.

Is it worth it?
In a word, YES.
just as an example, a fairly standard non boosted deathwish increases your damage by 30% for 30 seconds. As I am writing this, my current mastery set puts my deathwish at 65.35%

How do you do it?
1) get a mastery set, you can do this by simply hanging on to items that have mastery on them. save this set in the gear manager, also save your normal DPS set.
2) find a way to quickly swap between those two gear sets (there are tons of ways to do this)
3) before you pull a boss, put on your mastery set
4) when you are about to pull, battle shout/berzerker rage, then hit deathwish, (don't forget to prepot)
5) swap to your regular set of gear
6) start DPSing.


I personally use a macro because I have trinket that grants mastery on use, so it allows me to just click the same button a few times, then hit a second button to gear swap. In case you are really curious, here's the exact macro:

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=5 Mark of Khardros, Death Wish, Golemblood Potion

For those really curious, the current BiS mastery set it this:
http://chardev.org/?profile=364712
(http://chardev.org/?profile=364712)with moonwell up, it gives 7361 mastery, which converts in to a 68.23% deathwish (241.13% boost)



Gurthalak's, and YOU

the proc mechanics on gurthalaks are unlike anything that's been in the game thus far. a lot of testing has been done, and pretty much everything has been figured out. Unfortunately I see people doing things that tells me not everyone got the memo, so allow me to forward that memo to you:

Certain attacks can proc gurth regardless of what hand it's in (the most notable being BT).
If you use two of the same ilevel gurths, the spell id's of the proc is obviously the same for both weapons.
When you use an attack that can proc off a gurth in either hand, it will not proc the same spell id twice
Different ilevel gurths proc different tentacles (read: different spell id's).
Using 2 gurths of different ilevel allows the attacks that can proc from a gurth in either hand, to be capable of procing both at the same time
What does this mean?
if you're going to use two gurthalaks, make sure they are different ilevels, otherwise you are losing a lot of stats for a minuscule increase in tentacle procs.

I personally don't use a gurth in my offhand, this is because not only is the theoretical gain very small (less than the value of a str gem), using two gurth's sets you up for even more tentacle RNG, which can really suck some times.

ygar
12-13-2010, 10:12 AM
Awesome guide dude... I am using everything you have said and I have had a jump of 1800 - 2500 dps in heroics. It was a little tough moving from pure PvP to PvE. not to mention not playing my warrior for nearly 4 months.

Got My Vote for Critical guide

Kazeyonoma
12-13-2010, 11:39 AM
Stickied.

Grannos
12-13-2010, 12:05 PM
Damn good timing. I just started my 80-85 warrior grind last night. Your last guide was a huge help. I cannot wait to get home and impliment what I have learned here. Thank you for taking the time to put this guide out. It is much appreciated. :)

Symph
12-14-2010, 08:30 AM
Decent guide but I disagree about doing nothing when you can't raging blow. You should be using berserker rage to raging blow when you have no enrage.

Erkebrand
12-15-2010, 12:47 AM
You should be using berserker rage to raging blow when you have no enrage.

I'm certain the TGM is thinking of the situation, where you arent Enraged and BR is on CD - in which case you cant use RB and should do something else like using your Bloodsurge proc....

Krenian
12-15-2010, 06:30 AM
Symph, this is fine to do when you are in a fight where fear isn't an issue. If it is, I would rather save my Berserking rage for that situation where I can break out of fear and continue dps instead of losing 3-4 seconds.

It's situational. On normal times, you wanna use it if you're sitting with nothing else to do. But if you have to save Berserking Rage for something such as fears, then you wanna use something else. And that includes if it's on CD or anything of the sort.

So in a way you're right and in a way TGM is right: you use that period to do something at least. Honestly, you should never have 'nothing' to do. A debuff, a shout, anything really, you do it in that downtime.

Symph
12-15-2010, 08:00 AM
That's very true. On any fight that fears, using it to break the fear is more dps than saving it for raging blow. But usually fears are timed and the cooldown on berserker rage is fairly short. So as long as your smart about it you can use it for both.

I just thought something should be added about it to the guide because I've come across a few warriors who did not know they could use Berserker Rage to allow the use of Raging Blow.

Krenian
12-15-2010, 08:06 AM
It's harder to time honestly.

Most fears I've seen are honestly timed on a CD that coincides with the Berserking Rage CD. I've seen some fights that the fear is more often (Herp'derp being one of em..god damn ogre) but never really something that was on a one or two minute CD. At most 45 second which throws everything off.

Safe to say Berserking Rage is a tool that you must use smart. Going around and always pushing it when it's off CD is not the best strategy but never using it when it has obvious benefits (Rage if glyphed and enraged proc) is silly as well.

That's why honestly you wanna watch yourself and simply use it when you can. S'why he left it in there stating that you should do 'nothing' in the sense that any other attack will lose dps.

Thegreatme
12-15-2010, 11:32 AM
obviously you should just reroll human and racial out of every fear in pve.

seriously though just use zerker rage when every you need it most, whether you need it for the rage, the enrage effect, or for the fear immunity.

Lettuce
12-15-2010, 11:33 AM
Any insight on why you took the Skirmisher talent? Once the patch went through, this was an obvious choice for me, even without Heroic Leap available. Now, after having time to play with some talents, I have found it to not be as good of a use for 2 points as others.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/steamwheedle-cartel/jufy/talent/primary (my spec)

I chose to put the 2 points into Blood Craze (capping it with the 1 from Heroic Fury).

I would only like insight into the Skirmisher talent choice. I am still currently experimenting with the other talents, and reading your/other guides.

Symph
12-15-2010, 12:13 PM
Why would you spec into Blood Craze? Heroic Fury and Skirmisher can actually be a dps increase if it allows you to intercept or heroic leap (an extra time) to close the distance to dps a boss or allow you to move out of something bad, then intercept back to the boss. I haven't even done all the new raid bosses yet so I can't speak too much about that but there's been plenty of times in heroics and the bosses I've done so far where having heroic fury and shorter CD on heroic leap has helped.

And Blood Craze is just really bad.

squats
12-15-2010, 02:31 PM
obviously you should just reroll human and racial out of every fear in pve.

seriously though just use zerker rage when every you need it most, whether you need it for the rage, the enrage effect, or for the fear immunity.

Obviously your playing on the inferior faction. Trolls>everything

Lollo
12-16-2010, 08:44 AM
Thank you very much for this comprehensive giude! It is very valuable for me.

Yves
12-16-2010, 04:11 PM
Symph what DPS are you pulling with the stats you got now?
Just curious.

SeptimX
12-17-2010, 11:07 PM
currently switched back to Arms, as i am acquiring better 2hand weapons for Titan's grip... using 2 2hand swords as an orc looks kinda funny...

and since world market/economy on some enchants and crafted (Chaos orb required) is out of whack, i am then left playing the waiting game, the gathering game, to get enough gold for future purchases...

tgm thank you for the guild, the gems and enchants, talents and abilities list saves me a lot of time from researching each one...

Symph
12-17-2010, 11:30 PM
Symph what DPS are you pulling with the stats you got now?
Just curious.
Honestly? My dps has been pretty bad in raids because I've been testing random things like SMF viability (btw it's not good), inner rage, plus learning new fights kinda sucks. I think I've got things down now though so if you're still interested I can let you know next raid or next raid reset.

Though if it helps at all I did 15,307 on Argaloth when I was just playing normally, but I've gotten a few important upgrades since then. And 15k seems pretty low (at least it does to me), but I somehow ranked 65th on WoL. Maybe it's just because most people are doing 10 man though.

Vexengetorix
12-18-2010, 05:26 AM
Hey Thegreatme. I just wanna say thanks for making your guide. I've been a fan of your guides ever since I watched them back in WotLK. Your guides helped me alot to understand rotation and how to do the best dps possible, lately my DPS has been sucking and hasn't been as good as it should be. After I watched your latest video I figured out what I was doing wrong and now I'm always top dps! Turns out my single target rotation was completely off. :P Much love/respect! <3

Speech
12-18-2010, 05:58 AM
Honestly? My dps has been pretty bad in raids because I've been testing random things like SMF viability (btw it's not good), inner rage, plus learning new fights kinda sucks. I think I've got things down now though so if you're still interested I can let you know next raid or next raid reset.

Do you have any numbers for this? Ive been running smf since lvl 84 and am just now getting another 2h for TG. Im interested in the difference i should see.

Yves
12-18-2010, 06:58 AM
Honestly? My dps has been pretty bad in raids because I've been testing random things like SMF viability (btw it's not good), inner rage, plus learning new fights kinda sucks. I think I've got things down now though so if you're still interested I can let you know next raid or next raid reset.

Though if it helps at all I did 15,307 on Argaloth when I was just playing normally, but I've gotten a few important upgrades since then. And 15k seems pretty low (at least it does to me), but I somehow ranked 65th on WoL. Maybe it's just because most people are doing 10 man though.

Thats still pretty good, but i am sure we can get higher.
I am having more issues to get it right.
12k dps tops so far, rage regen is a major issue, and god knows what else

squats
12-18-2010, 07:19 AM
I hope I'm not going to far off subject with this. But I just wanted to throw this out here.

I really wish blizzard would give us more interesting enchants for our weapons than just procced AP. something like mongoose or life drain or random damage or something that is actually run and interesting. And before anyone says it. Yes I know that the 1k or so AP that we get from landslide is better than what any of the proposed enchants. If the static AP enchants never happend. We wouldn't know better.

Yves
12-18-2010, 07:35 AM
I hope I'm not going to far off subject with this. But I just wanted to throw this out here.

I really wish blizzard would give us more interesting enchants for our weapons than just procced AP. something like mongoose or life drain or random damage or something that is actually run and interesting. And before anyone says it. Yes I know that the 1k or so AP that we get from landslide is better than what any of the proposed enchants. If the static AP enchants never happend. We wouldn't know better.

I have seen some use mongoose on their current weapons.
Have not tried it myself yet

squats
12-18-2010, 07:50 AM
I have seen some use mongoose on their current weapons.
Have not tried it myself yet

My point was more that I want the optimal enchants to be more fun. Yeah you can use hurricane or avalanche or mongoose. But they arnt as good

Erkebrand
12-18-2010, 08:07 AM
The Cataclysmic sunderbot !

Since we dont normally run with any warriortanks in guild, I've been using the following opening rotation the get sunders up as quickly and dps-efficiently as possible.

Prerequisite:
1) To be able to do the following I've glyphed: Berserkerage, Colossus Smash and Heroic Throw
2) I've macroed Heroic Throw to Intercept
3) I've made a specifik opening macro that pops Battleshout/Berserkerage to get the initial 37 rage and become enraged at the get go.
4) I presume the target have normal aggro-range and that you have to stand at range before pull("activationbosses", like Suarfang in ICC, is an example where this does not apply)

Opening rotation:
# initiation of combat(tank pull)
0.0 BS/BR (remember Battleshout uses a GCD - so dont use the intercept/heroic throw macro too soon); 37 rage gained
1.5 Intercept (intercept is off GCD but Heroic Throw is not); 1st Sunder Stack/10 rage used
3.0 Colossus Smash; 2nd Sunder Stack/20 rage used - initiation of whiteattacks
4.5 Bloodthirst
6.0 Raging Blow
7.5 Bloodthirst
9.0 Free GCD -> Sunder Armor; 3rd Sunder Stack

After that the rotation is as it normally is - and you dont have to think about Sunders anymore if you keep Colossus Smash on CD on that target.

Flaws ?

squats
12-18-2010, 08:16 AM
Have a Druid of any type feri fire. It's the same thing but lasts longer.

Erkebrand
12-18-2010, 08:36 AM
True - or a rogue(expose) or a hunter(with raptor/serpent) could also apply the debuff, but off the point since the premise(i've could have specified that..) was the that warrior had to apply the debuff.

Thegreatme
12-18-2010, 11:23 AM
3) I've made a specifik opening macro that pops Battleshout/Berserkerage to get the initial 37 rage and become enraged at the get go.you can start any boss fight with a full rage bar given enough time simply by using zerker rage and battle shout on cooldown.

also, as far as I am aware, the CS glyph doesn't apply sunder, it simply refreshes the duration

Erkebrand
12-18-2010, 12:45 PM
...also, as far as I am aware, the CS glyph doesn't apply sunder, it simply refreshes the duration

I does apply another stack - just not the first.

Enable
12-18-2010, 03:32 PM
Should I still macro Heroic strike to abilities or use it when deemed necessary. Right now I still have it macro'd to my BT and RB. It isn't killing my rage as my white damage still generates enough to use it plus the ability each time through the rotation. Is this still efficient or saving it and using it during my battle trances better?

Symph
12-18-2010, 05:04 PM
Do you have any numbers for this? Ive been running smf since lvl 84 and am just now getting another 2h for TG. Im interested in the difference i should see.
Honestly the logs were so bad I'm too embarrassed to post them. I probably exaggerated a little. SMF isn't awful, but it's only viable if your 1 handers are better than your 2 handers. I'll probably test it out again if I manage to get 2 epic 1 handers before 2 handers. Considering we run 4 ret paladins and only one DK, that seems very likely. I'll post more if I decide to mess around with it again.


Should I still macro Heroic strike to abilities or use it when deemed necessary. Right now I still have it macro'd to my BT and RB. It isn't killing my rage as my white damage still generates enough to use it plus the ability each time through the rotation. Is this still efficient or saving it and using it during my battle trances better?
Don't do this. I honestly don't see how you're not having rage problems doing this. I use heroic strike very sparingly and my gear is decent and I still never have excess rage.

Enable
12-18-2010, 05:54 PM
Don't do this. I honestly don't see how you're not having rage problems doing this. I use heroic strike very sparingly and my gear is decent and I still never have excess rage.

I don't really ever have excess rage but I always have rage to keep up the rotation every 1.5 seconds. The benefit is that when there is excess rage it takes care of it automatically. I'm just curious if I should save Heroic Strike for my trance when it procs or keep it macro'd.

Adamus
12-18-2010, 11:53 PM
I have a question maybe someone could develop a macro to one rotation (one button dps)

squats
12-19-2010, 05:14 AM
I have a question maybe someone could develop a macro to one rotation (one button dps)

Don't be lazy. These never work. Our rotation is a priorety list..

Yves
12-19-2010, 07:55 AM
Are you sure you want to play a warrior, if ur asking this kind of question!

Robix
12-20-2010, 08:04 AM
Is there any particular order one should farm the various fraction rep? Which would fury benefit most from and which is the crap?

Nez
12-20-2010, 08:19 AM
Is there any particular order one should farm the various fraction rep? Which would fury benefit most from and which is the crap?

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?72489-Rep-rewards-for-Warriors

Robix
12-20-2010, 11:03 AM
Link doesn't work.
Searching it manually doesn't hit any thread.
Searching using ID 72489 sends me back to this thread....I must be blind then, still can't find any info.

Thanks for trying to share.

/Robix

Kazeyonoma
12-20-2010, 12:21 PM
it's because he linked it to a donor only forum thread, here, i'll shove the info here for you to use.
note, it doesn't directly answer your question about which faction to get first, it depends entirely on what piece you need most or value the the most, and which pieces you think are better off grabbing from justice points.




Just something I threw together really quick sorted by faction so I know which ones to go to first, figured others could use it too, but it's too poorly thrown together to be turned into a guide in the other forums. enjoy!

short guide for warrior reputations in cataclysm:


Earthen Ring Faction - Desired rep to achieve - Revered
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62355 - Plate Tanking Legs - Honored
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62366 - Stam/Dodge Arcanum - Revered


Hellscream's Reach - Desired rep to achieve - Exalted (PVP faction for Tol'Barad)
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62454 - 552 dps 2handed sword - Revered
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62464 - Mastery trinket with str on use (tanking or dps) - Exalted
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62466 - Mastery trinket with resists on use (tanking) - Exalted
http://www.wowhead.com/item=65356 - Flying mount - Exalted
http://www.wowhead.com/item=64999 - Ground mount - Exalted


Ramkahen - Desired rep to achieve - Exalted
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62437 - Str DPS Cloak - Honored
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62440 - Str/stam/exp/mastery ring - Revered
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62447 - Dps neck - Exalted
http://www.wowhead.com/item=63044 and http://www.wowhead.com/item=63045 - Ground mount - Exalted
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62449 - Tanking bracers - exalted


Therazane - Desired rep to achieve - Exalted (Similar to Sons of Hodir, quest to get out of Hated -> Honored, then daily to exalted)
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62344 - Str/crit shoulder enchant - Honored
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62347 - Agi/mastery shoulder enchant - Honored
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62321 - Stam/dodge shoulder enchant - Honored
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62351 - Tanking ring - Revered
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62350 - Dps ring - Revered
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62345 - Str/crit shoulder enchant - Exalted
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62346 - Agi/mastery shoulder enchant - Exalted
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62333 - Stam/dodge shoulder enchant - Exalted


Dragonmaw Clan - Desired rep to achieve - Exalted
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62368 - Str/mastery arcanum - Revered
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62408 - Dps gloves - Revered
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62410 - Tanking helm - Revered
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62418 - Tanking boots - Exalted


Guardians of Hyjal - Desired rep to achieve - Exalted
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62375 - Dps ring - Honored
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62376 - Tanking neck - Honored
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62382 - Dps Boots - Revered
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62384 - Dps Belt - Exalted
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62383 - Tanking cloak - Exalted


Justice Point vendor in Orgrimmar/Stormwind:

Neck: - 1250 jp
http://www.wowhead.com/item=57930 - DPS neck
http://www.wowhead.com/item=57932 - Tanking neck

Offhand: - 950 jp
http://www.wowhead.com/item=57929 - offhand str 1hander (SMF spec fury?)
http://www.wowhead.com/item=57926 - Shield

Chest: - 2200 jp
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58101 - tanking chest
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58096 - dps chest

Waist: - 1650 jp
http://www.wowhead.com/item=57913 - dps belt
http://www.wowhead.com/item=57914 - tanking belt

Legs: - 2200 jp
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58097 - dps legs
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58102 - tanking legs

Head: - 2200 jp
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58098 - dps helm
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58103 - tanking helm

Hands: - 1650 jp
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58105 - tanking gloves
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58099 - dps gloves

Shoulders: - 1650 jp
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58104 - tanking pauldrons
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58100 - dps pauldrons

adding in valor point purchases for tanking:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58192 - 1250 vp
http://www.wowhead.com/item=60329 - 2200 vp
http://www.wowhead.com/item=60332 - 1650 vp
http://www.wowhead.com/item=60330 - 2200 vp
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58197 - 1650 vp
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58187 - 1250 vp
http://www.wowhead.com/item=58182 - 1650 vp

Nez
12-20-2010, 01:10 PM
it's because he linked it to a donor only forum thread

Doh! Just have it in my bookmarks of awesome information, never thought about it. LOL

Order would be by what you need most.

Thegreatme
12-20-2010, 01:11 PM
I don't really ever have excess rage but I always have rage to keep up the rotation every 1.5 seconds. The benefit is that when there is excess rage it takes care of it automatically. I'm just curious if I should save Heroic Strike for my trance when it procs or keep it macro'd.
I have a feeling that if you checked your parses and checked your ability usage efficiency, this would not always be the case.

Macro'ing HS to abilities is a gamble, it will either simply make you not need to hit your HS button that time, or it will hurt your DPS because you will hit HS when you shouldn't. there really isn't a good reason to do this unless you happen to have 100% HSF, which you don't

Kazeyonoma
12-20-2010, 02:02 PM
one thing i noticed about glyph of colossus smash.

if there are no sunders, it does nothing
if there is 1, or 2 sunders, it adds a stack
if there is 3, it simply refreshes.

so it's possible, for you to start a fight by heroic throwing, sundering once, then colossus smashing to get 3/3 sunders without having to waste a gcd. the more warriors you have in the group, the faster this can happen =]

Hogshank
12-22-2010, 07:13 AM
I just wanted to share my philosophy on gemming/enchanting/reforging to this thread. Basically I ranked the various enhanceing stats in order of importance with the following lists.

Enchanting/Gemming
1. Hit
2. Expertise
3. Strength
4. Critical Strike
5. Mastery

(notice haste is not on this list.)


Reforging (if not hit/exp capped)
1. Hit
2. Expertise
3. Critical Strike
4. Mastery
5. Haste

Reforging (if hit/exp capped)
1. Critical Strike
2. Mastery
3. Hit
4. Haste
5. Expertise

After this I enchant/gem all my gear using the ranking list. If I am hit and expertise capped, I move down to the next important stat available for enhancing my gear. Then I move on to reforging where (depending on if I am hit/exp capped at this point) I reforge each item to drop the least important stat available to the most important stat available.

There might be items that I dont reforge, I might have to regem or reenchant an item or two, and there might be other variations to this method as I progress through gearing up but this is just my basic philosophy on enhancing your stats.

Krays
12-22-2010, 01:21 PM
Heys, guys loving my warrior at the moment, doing great dps, but i have a question, i can NOT get landslide at the moment, its not available on my server, and will probably cost 10k when it is.

I think alot of people gonna be asking this question too, and i can't find the answer anywhere, most people just say do what ever you feel like, but i need a scientific answer please :P

The question is Berserking vs, Avalanche vs Hurricane vs Pyrium weapon chain (hit) for my fury weapon enchants, which one will give me the most dps? at the moment i use weapon chain and berserk, but gota new weapon ( still a blue, not worth spending on much), what shall i put on it for best dps? My guts tells me Hurricane, because 2 attack power = about 0.8 haste right in terms of fury dps right?

EDIT : added in the NOT, didnt have that there before lol, which would make my post make no sense at all.

Krenian
12-22-2010, 02:49 PM
Lots of people are actually really liking Hurricane. They see a pretty decent jump in their DPS by using double Hurricane so there's a viable alternative.

Symph
12-22-2010, 03:40 PM
Reforging (if hit/exp capped)
1. Critical Strike
2. Mastery
3. Hit
4. Haste
5. Expertise
Sorry, but to be blunt, this is just incorrect. Hit (8%) > Expertise (26) > Hit (27%) > Crit > Haste > Mastery.

So it's more like (If Hit 8% and Expertise 26):
1. Hit
2. Crit
3. Haste
4. Mastery

Our mastery isn't that good, it just isn't. Mastery and haste are pretty close DPS wise, but not only does haste pull slightly ahead, it also allows a smoother rotation due to more incoming rage. There's no reason to prioritize mastery above haste, and especially not above hit.

@Krays: Go double hurricane.

avengement
12-23-2010, 03:35 AM
Great Guide. Look forward to discussing the beast that is the Fury warrior with you all in the future :).

illinivb7
12-23-2010, 01:26 PM
Do people feel Elementium Deathplate is worth it over the JP chest?

After comparing the stats it seemed a sidegrade at best if not a downgrade so wondering other peoples views for a fury warr

Magnuss
12-23-2010, 01:39 PM
The thinking behind hit (8%) > expt (26) > hit (27%) > crit

Is what I was thinking was going to be best but I would strongly recommend checking out elitist jerks current thinking. You see our crit numbers early on as fury even with the built in talents are actually low enough that it's common for flurry to fall off of the target. This lack of flurry is actually resulting in dps dros that are very significant due to the lack of rage we are generating. This is why a lot of recommendations are to get crit after hit and expertise soft cap until you reach a level where flurry is near guaranteed over 3 hits.

Now I don't think I actually read at what % crit this takes place at but it also includes the built in crit numbers you're getting from whatever talents you have. Once you are over this % then you may continue to stack hit to 27%.

Now this is in reference to the particular section when speaking of reforging. According to the posts I have read up on, it is important to remember that once you have hit and expertise soft caps that the biggest dps gains are going to come from strength wherever possible. This means gems and enchants that give strength are more favorable than once that give another stat. I know that I got caught up in thenquest for hit too much to notice the important detail at first and just wanted to point it out more clearly.

If anyone has discovered something contrary to anything above I'd appreciate a heads up.

Kamiell
12-26-2010, 08:13 PM
Hurricane over Avalanche? since in my server nobody can do Landslide still sadly?

Yves
12-27-2010, 04:26 AM
Yes Hurricane is better the Avalanche imo, i have not had any good results using Avalanche compared to Hurricane.

Thegreatme
12-27-2010, 01:42 PM
Hurricane is by far better than avalanche.

TmanTrex
12-27-2010, 02:05 PM
Ok so I was using Hurricane but I went back to Berzerker much bigger effect for me at this time. Landslide is just not possible yet plus doubt if I would put that enchant on a 346 blue weapon at this time. Might switch once I get my hit higher and closer to 27%.


Tman

Wulfkry
12-28-2010, 12:10 AM
Today i got Lava Slide http://www.wowhead.com/item=59333 from my 10 man and im wondering if there is any info on the use of SMF. Mainly is it an equivalent dps output as TG?

Macar
12-28-2010, 01:23 AM
Today i got Lava Slide http://www.wowhead.com/item=59333 from my 10 man and im wondering if there is any info on the use of SMF. Mainly is it an equivalent dps output as TG?

In my experience pretty much the same DPS, maybe even a bit higher - like 1-2 percent. Sorry I do not have any logs or sreenshots to confirm this statement.

The theorycrafting also seems to support my experience (even though at this stage theorycrafting is shaky). Both Simulationcraft and maxdps.com show a slight increase with SMF over TG with similar level gear.

captanmurdoc
12-28-2010, 04:18 PM
Today i got Lava Slide http://www.wowhead.com/item=59333 from my 10 man and im wondering if there is any info on the use of SMF. Mainly is it an equivalent dps output as TG?

with my testing titan's grip does slightly better dps up until the boss hits 20% and sub 20% SMF does slightly more. TG comes out ahead by such a slight margin that theres no need to prioritize TG over SMF and just go with which ever you have the better weapons for

Kamiell
12-29-2010, 07:52 PM
Are slow 2 H still better for fury? im was wondering since haste now becomes an semi important thing fur us. And Also anyone else having a hell of a time getting to 27% hit? im in a few epics and all heroic blues and im at 17.70% with most hit gems and reforging to hit and my experties is at 26 and crit at 17% and haste only at 8.86% i fell like im not getting even close in any of the stats to be of use in raids my dps in heroics gors from 10K to 15k dependin on grp combo but i fell like i have lost the picture on the right stat balancing even understanding the:

Hit(till 8%) > Expertise(till 26) > Strength > Hit(till 27%)> Haste(till rage gain is consistent)> Crit > Mastery > Haste


cant even get close in any of the stats

DarkraveR
12-29-2010, 07:58 PM
I was wondering how many strength is needed before you reforge for 27% hit? And does anyone have an idea how many haste you should be aiming for after 27% hitcap?

Hit(till 8%) > Expertise(till 26) > Strength > Hit(till 27%)> Haste(till rage gain is consistent)> Crit > Mastery > Haste

Krenian
12-29-2010, 08:55 PM
At this point, with the gearlevel you will get, you will most likely not be able to get to those caps. If you do, you will be hurting some of your other stats big time.

This is why you will see some places suggest that you only go for around 20 to 22% hit and leave the 5% miss chance there for white damage. This should give you enough rage generation to allow smooth rotations without too many times seeing rage issues.

After that, you can work on your other stats. Notably, expertise should be easy enough to get to. My character's sitting with 29 expertise and I honestly just did a bit of reforging to get that. Once you get those two numbers, the rest is easy enough.

A small hint I would tell you guys: Gem for double stats. Strength and Hit will definitely be the gem to look at which I believe, if my memory serves me correctly, is a purple gem. Etched if I recall.

Loading up with those gems + working around the reforging should give you some help and not sacrifice your damage too much due to boosting your strength slightly. Hit and Strength are so comparable together that boosting the both of them up together is your best bet.

My suggestion for stats is this:

Hit to 8%
Expertise to 26.

Those two are non negociable.

At this point, once you got this, boost up your Hit and Strength equally. This will allow your hits to strike harder and your rage to smoothen up and give you better chunks. At some point, if you cannot get either strength or Hit, go with haste to help out the smoothing of rage.

Crit and mastery will be your last things. Get rid of mastery asap on your gear, it's damn near pointless to worry about it. It is the prime stat, including crit, to change to either hit or haste.

Symph
12-29-2010, 11:11 PM
I'd say to still go with crit over haste. Higher flurry uptime is pretty noticeable for both damage and rage generation.

Tschaka
12-30-2010, 03:50 AM
crit = more dmg + flurry = 25% haste

for me its crit > haste

Krenian
12-30-2010, 06:38 AM
Crit will be higher than haste but as the guide says, you should really not underplay haste's value here.

You want to get a decent amount of haste which will smoothen and generate your rage. Hit and Haste are almost similar however hit is better in the scheme of things for DPS. I will fully admit that Crit is better after the rage is smoothened out however until we are able to get to the 27% hit cap, haste will probably be better.

But to each their own. If you guys see better results with Crit over Haste no matter what, then by all means go that way.

Yves
12-30-2010, 11:52 AM
I am personally still a bit lost also.
my DPS is ok ish, in raids i can make around 15k

But i have a feeling my rage regen is causing some problems.
I also decided not to use HS but instead use Cleave.

If haste if my issue or not i have no idea.
current stats are something like

haste 9.22
hit 13.34
crit 15.56
expertise 26/26
mastery 12.36

average ilvl 348

I think my hast is to much already on those settings, i reforged a bit to get more hast.
Just to see if my rage problem was solved but it wasnt, my dps went down also, because i removed hit to add haste.

meode
12-31-2010, 08:02 AM
what's the oppinion on using the new conquest weapons btw, i just picked up the axe and started using it for my fury set too. i've got a choice of Akirus, the deadmines hc mace and the conquest axe with orc expertise racial.

Lindentree
01-01-2011, 07:17 AM
Unless I missed something in your numbers or the EJ post you took the theory from, I don't think your Incite numbers are taking into account the increase in Flurry procs. Since Flurry uptime is such a big deal, doesn't it make more sense to go 3/3 Incite than 3/3 DW?

A more skilled warrior than I could even save Incite procs to occasionally force a Flurry just as his previous one fell off, though of course using HS for Battle Trance or even just a rage dump would be a higher priority.

Symph
01-01-2011, 02:23 PM
Incite really isn't that great compared to DW. You'd have to play pretty much perfectly for it to be as good as a 3rd point in DW. Like you said, saving your Incite for when flurry falls or saving it for after a CS. But even then it's way too unreliable and Incite only lasts for 10 seconds. Basically it's just a lot of RNG and perfect play, even if the RNG happens to go your way.

Thegreatme
01-01-2011, 06:41 PM
Forcing a flurry with incite doesn't seem all that viable to me, because it would either result in me rage running the risk of rage starving my self, or I would have enough rage and would be using HS anyway for the extra damage.


That being said in hindsight I realize that I forgot to account for CS uptimes in my calculations, and that could definitely alter the results. Modeling incites effect on flurry uptimes is a bit more tricky, and I am still trying to figure out a "simple" method for determining hits per 3 swing periods, if anyone happens to know how to do this it would help me immensely.

Wulfkry
01-04-2011, 01:06 PM
So what im gettin is that my hit should be 8% and exp at 26. So what is this hit 27% thing? im gettin confused on that part.

Vibrancy
01-04-2011, 01:15 PM
8% is the cap for your yellow special abilities. 27% is the hit cap for all normal white attacks (assuming your dual wielding).

Wulfkry
01-04-2011, 03:52 PM
ahh ok so only after you have your expertise at 26 and yellow hit cap'd should you push for the 27% correct?

Krenian
01-04-2011, 04:24 PM
Pretty much Wulfkry.

You wanna push to 27% as it will give you the most DPS boost after you have capped your hit at 8% and your expertise at 26. Strength becomes slightly better than Hit but Hit will allow you to get more Rage and simply allow you to do more attacks in a round due to the excess rage you would get.

Baba
01-05-2011, 07:18 AM
Thanks for the guide. Not far off from what I've been doing. Glad to see the dismissal of inner rage. That skill needs to be redone bigtime (remove the rage penalty?), I haven't even put inner rage on a toolbar yet. For myself, gemming, I've been putting str+hit purple gems in all red slots, +40 hit gems in blue/prismatic slots, str+crit in yellow slots. This is enough to keep the blue > red for the meta.

Also (I apologize for my noobness with Cata mechanics), how *does* rage generation work now? Normalized for all swings, and damage done is irrelevant? So if I have a tier 13 500ilvl 2h it will generate the same rage as a 333 wep? And how is HS strike damage calculated? Sorry, I've been playing my war for 5 years, and I know all the pre-Cata mechanics like the back of my hand, but I have simply not had any time to actually do the Cata research.

Karnax
01-05-2011, 01:21 PM
I have been able to use Inner Rage during Blood Lust phases. I also read that using Inner Rage during execute phase is a good idea since only the base rage cost of Execute is increased and not the extra rage.

I have a question about expertise though. Since my warrior is an orc, I have an axe in MH and a mace offhand, which gives me 26/23 expertise. Should I bother to raise my offhand to 26 expertise?

Kamiell
01-06-2011, 12:00 PM
Which chant would u think its better now (not counting Landslide ) berzerker , Hurricane or avalanche considering ilvl of 352ish gear

mallevolent
01-06-2011, 01:15 PM
I feel like this is not entirely accurate


Shouldn’t we use slam every time we get a Bloodsuge proc instead of using procs after every second BT?
Nope.

Why?

When you delay the use of the 2nd BT, you get a rotation that looks like this:

0.0 BT
1.5 RB
3.0 Slam
4.5 BT (-1/2 BT)
6.0 Slam
7.5 RB (BT comes off CD)
9.0 BT(-1/2 BT)
Etc.

By delaying the 2nd BT, you actually end up losing a full BT every time this happens, and because the potential gain is only 1 extra slam, which hits for less that BT, it is a DPS loss to delay the use of the 2nd BT.

What about the extra rage you gain by using a free slam instead of a BT? In my experience, this almost always = a heroic strike.

So I disagree where you say the potential gain is only 1 extra slam. I feel like the potential gain is a slam + heroic strike, which is definitely more damage then a single blood thirst.

mallevolent
01-06-2011, 01:16 PM
Which chant would u think its better now (not counting Landslide ) berzerker , Hurricane or avalanche considering ilvl of 352ish gear
Hurricane seems to be the consensus

Face-ache
01-06-2011, 04:07 PM
Is there any change to stat priority with the new buff to Mastery?

mallevolent
01-06-2011, 05:49 PM
Is there any change to stat priority with the new buff to Mastery?

Not to mention the massive 35% nerf to HS

Does this mean it is no longer viable to try to stack hit? Just when I was starting to love my rage generation and really feel comfortable with my gemming =(

Baba
01-07-2011, 09:39 AM
Yeah, why'd they have to double hit HS? Should just start with taking it out of the 15% talent, not ALSO give it 20% on top of that. Yes, HS hits hard, but it costs 30 rage compared to max 20 for all other attacks, so damage per rage cost is not as big as it seems.

Thegreatme
01-07-2011, 12:56 PM
it's not a 35% nerf.

Currently HS hits for 8+0.75*ap

the flat 20% nerf means it will be:

0.8*(8+.075*ap) = 6.4+0.60*ap


currently there are 3 DIM's that affect HS's damage: berserker stance(10%) Dual wield specialization (10%), and war academy(15%).

1.1*1.1*1.15 = 1.3915
take out the 1.15 and you get
1.1*1.1=1.21

when you distribute the coefficient, you can basically say that the current HS hits for 104.36% of your AP, and the "nerfed" HS will hit for 72.6% of your AP, which is a reduction of 31.7625%

bla bla bla bla bla. we all knew this was coming, this change isn't absurd or out of line at all. HS being our second hardest hitting ability behind RB was obviously not intended as it goes against blizzards philosophy of how the ability should work. making HS cost 20 rage would also go against this philosophy so I highly doubt they would ever consider doing that. regardless of what it will do to our DPS this change is necessary.

as for this nerfs effect on itemization, it does nothing. our goal is still to fill the GCD table, and get as many HS uses after that by maximizing rage generation.

As for mastery, it still sucks.

balane
01-07-2011, 05:07 PM
I'm pretty stoked about the changes to meta gems. Not only that the physical DPS ones requiring 3 red gems to activate but also the new Str + 3% Crit dmg is just what we've been waiting for.

As far as the nerfs to PVE on HS and Cleave, well... we'll cope with it. Nobody's happy about it but at least we expected it.

We still get to wear plate and can take a beating.

Yves
01-08-2011, 12:23 PM
Managed to get [/URL][URL="http://www.wowhead.com/item=67141/corefire-legplates"]corefire legplates (http://[url=%22http//%5BURL=%22http://%5BURL%22%22)

Have not equipped them yet.
They are good i guess, but the 2 yellow slots suck on it imo.
So should i use or AH it?
And if i use it should i gem it with?

Since 40 strength is not possible, unless i ignore the bonus.
I could put hit in them ofc.


On another note, where there unmentioned changes to warriors during one of the last hot fixes?
My warrior feels different somehow, dps dropped also.
And from what i can tell he is attacking slower.
As if one of the stats where changed or something.

Macar
01-09-2011, 08:04 AM
Managed to get [/URL][URL="http://www.wowhead.com/item=67141/corefire-legplates"]corefire legplates (http://[url=%22http//%5BURL=%22http://%5BURL%22%22)

Have not equipped them yet.
They are good i guess, but the 2 yellow slots suck on it imo.
So should i use or AH it?
And if i use it should i gem it with?

Since 40 strength is not possible, unless i ignore the bonus.
I could put hit in them ofc.


On another note, where there unmentioned changes to warriors during one of the last hot fixes?
My warrior feels different somehow, dps dropped also.
And from what i can tell he is attacking slower.
As if one of the stats where changed or something.

The socket bonus is not that great anyway in my opinion, so put 2 Strength gems in there and be happy. And +Hit gems are blue these days, just so you know.

The legs are pretty good, and I think they are in the top two spots for the leg slot.

Icosiol
01-09-2011, 08:53 AM
Managed to get [/URL][URL="http://www.wowhead.com/item=67141/corefire-legplates"]corefire legplates (http://[url=%22http//%5BURL=%22http://%5BURL%22%22)

On another note, where there unmentioned changes to warriors during one of the last hot fixes?
My warrior feels different somehow, dps dropped also.
And from what i can tell he is attacking slower.
As if one of the stats where changed or something.

I concur, something has changed. I went from having my Rage constant, swings fast and hard hits to, where's my rage? Where's my frequent Battle Trance procs? Where's my Bloodsurge procs? Where'd all my dps go?

The biggest thing I noticed was the lack of Battle Trance and Bloodsurge procs. My gear didn't change at all from the day I was doing 12-14k dps, to suddenly now at 9-10k. Is there anybody else who can confirm this? I have not seen anything regarding this on the Hot Fix notes. Thank you.

Yves
01-09-2011, 10:45 AM
The socket bonus is not that great anyway in my opinion, so put 2 Strength gems in there and be happy. And +Hit gems are blue these days, just so you know.

The legs are pretty good, and I think they are in the top two spots for the leg slot.

Yah i was considering that at first also.
i can also add str/crit or crit/hit and getting the socket bonus(even though imo its worthless atm).



I concur, something has changed. I went from having my Rage constant, swings fast and hard hits to, where's my rage? Where's my frequent Battle Trance procs? Where's my Bloodsurge procs? Where'd all my dps go?

The biggest thing I noticed was the lack of Battle Trance and Bloodsurge procs. My gear didn't change at all from the day I was doing 12-14k dps, to suddenly now at 9-10k. Is there anybody else who can confirm this? I have not seen anything regarding this on the Hot Fix notes. Thank you.

Yup, that's exactly what i being noticing.

rosseli
01-09-2011, 06:28 PM
I concur, something has changed. I went from having my Rage constant, swings fast and hard hits to, where's my rage? Where's my frequent Battle Trance procs? Where's my Bloodsurge procs? Where'd all my dps go?

The biggest thing I noticed was the lack of Battle Trance and Bloodsurge procs. My gear didn't change at all from the day I was doing 12-14k dps, to suddenly now at 9-10k. Is there anybody else who can confirm this? I have not seen anything regarding this on the Hot Fix notes. Thank you.

Posts like these are worthless without providing evidence. All they result in is people like the poster above going YEA THATS HAPPENING TO ME TOO, whereas a dps drop of 4k like you say would definitly be noticed by more people. Would love to see evidence of this happening though. Personally my dps hasnt changed at all and ive remained competitive.

Macar
01-09-2011, 10:59 PM
I am using SMF, and while I would not say that I am competititve vs. for example Rogues, SV Hunters or Mages, my DPS has definately not gone down.

That said, I think Fury needs a little fine tuning in view of the upcoming changes in 4.0.6. We were alright, but now it seems we will get a slight nerf, which is not needed. A slight buff somewhere would make up for the lost damage to HS.

Personally I would love if they did something with Inner Rage.

Icosiol
01-09-2011, 11:24 PM
Posts like these are worthless without providing evidence. All they result in is people like the poster above going YEA THATS HAPPENING TO ME TOO, whereas a dps drop of 4k like you say would definitly be noticed by more people. Would love to see evidence of this happening though. Personally my dps hasnt changed at all and ive remained competitive.

Really troll? I'm merely confirming that on my end I'm noticing a similar change as to what the poster stated. I don't have charts and graphs and nor am I a math wiz to figure this stuff out, which is why I and many others come here to learn what we can't mathematically figure out for ourselves. We're not saying, "Hey this is fact." We're saying we're seeing a change and we'd like confirmation. Nothing wrong with that on these forums. It's what they're here for.

rosseli
01-10-2011, 12:26 AM
Really troll? I'm merely confirming that on my end I'm noticing a similar change as to what the poster stated. I don't have charts and graphs and nor am I a math wiz to figure this stuff out, which is why I and many others come here to learn what we can't mathematically figure out for ourselves. We're not saying, "Hey this is fact." We're saying we're seeing a change and we'd like confirmation. Nothing wrong with that on these forums. It's what they're here for.


I heard there might these things called logs.

As was i just merely stating that having a dps drop of 4k based on absolutely nothing doesnt help the forums.

Krenian
01-10-2011, 07:16 AM
Why do I feel when I play my Fury Warrior that I run out of buttons to press and I'm sitting here going...what now?

Every time I go do an instance, I sit there and watch as only two buttons are up: Colossal Smash (Which is on a 20 second cd) or Bloodthirst. I'm finding that Raging Blow is not often enough up, which really puts a hole in the things to do. Also, I'm getting little rage incoming which is severely limiting my ability to Heroic strike and at this point, with the nerf impending, I'm not really worried about it.

What bugs me is Slam. I honestly think 30% is still too low. It's not always up. If it was 50%, I would feel better. Heck, I would rather Slam just be always active any time you hit Blood Thirst. It would add another attack to my rotation and one that is actually yanno...there instead of sitting for Bloodthirst to come back and hope for a proc.

Look, I can understand they don't want us enraged all the time. I can get that. What I don't get is Slam, our other ability, is not always up. Which irritates me to no end cause you really have *two* buttons only that are going to be always reliable. And one's on a 20 second cooldown.

Just ranting a little bit. My DPS is around 10k but I'm not happy about it. It just feels limiting to me.

Loganisis
01-10-2011, 08:48 AM
Which abilities does Mastery impact? I'm still confused about this part, is it just enrage-based abilities (RB, IR) or is it all abilities?

Fury certainly does seem to have gone the opposite way as other classes, to a far less dynamic/interactive rotation.

Krenian, what's your hit/haste/crit and are you TG or SMF?

Krenian
01-10-2011, 09:05 AM
Honestly, I know why it's like that, the problem is that when you're that low level, you're still being pushed a bit by not having anything to do.

Am only Ilvl 340 with my gearset as SMF. Hardly acceptable and I haven't even jumped into raiding. I've only really noticed this in heroics but again, this is from a skewed situation. Personal gripe more than anything really:

16.24 including precision in hit
6.97 haste
12.80 crit.

All of it abysmally low. I had no problems capping my stats in wrath and bc and vanilla but this time it's just..the 27% hit requirement is rough. It's making the rest of my stats suffer a bit.

Loganisis
01-10-2011, 01:38 PM
Yeah, it's kinda been going from the oldest kid in t-ball to the youngest in little league with the target hit ~20% range - If they plan to raise rating requirements per % like they've discussed (I haven't seen them say they've abandoned it directly nor that they plan to) - Fury is going to be rough every major patch as rating points plummet.

I wonder if they will do something like they do for casters, who only need 17% hit to hard cap, giving Fury some high tree ability that will convert 25/50% of their expertise into hit as well (e.g. for 26 exp 1/2 gives 6.5% hit, or 2/2 13% hit). Or maybe give 50%/100% of all hit as expertise as well. Can't tell you how jealous I am of casters who get 100% of their spirit (which they need for resource management) as hit too! XD Oh well.

Having one of the highest priority ratings be a pure resource generation ability (okay, not quite pure, a few more white hits), just feels wrong.

Fury Mastery affects only abilities requiring or generating rage - which would be:
Raging Blows
Beserking Rage
Inner Rage
Recklessness

Right, or am I forgetting an ability that requires/causes you to be enraged?

So really, with mastery only affecting RB (because I can't see anyone hitting the rage generation needed to sustain Inner Rage without sacrificing rage-dump HS which is > than a 15% increase I would think).

I'm asking because I didn't see in TGM's guide, because there's no Dummy FAQ questions.

Krenian
01-10-2011, 01:43 PM
You know what Loganisis? I like that idea. I really do like it:

Place Expertise in there and put a talent in Fury that allows you to convert your Expertise to a certain amount of points into Hit. Even 25% would be nice. I would seriously suggest that you go and suggest this in the forums. This might be a really good thing to let the Devs listen to. I might ping the idea off actually to a couple people in the forums.

You pretty much nailed it: Not many of our abilities are affected by the mastery. That's why Mastery is pretty much crap. You wanna avoid using it and that's about it. It only affects three skills honestly, and you're forgetting Death Wish btw. It does affect it. However these are all bigger type CDs. The problem is that it just isn't worth putting points in Mastery because we need so much hit to deal with that. Your idea however to use Expertise is a decent one. I'm floating with Expertise right now that I can't get rid of.

Honestly, it's going to suck for a lil bit until we can figure some way to get to the max of our hit ratio and start building up on our other stats. I'm really annoyed at the fact that we're so low stat wise but it was to be expected.

Memsie
01-10-2011, 02:55 PM
It's more related to survival than dps (and thus doesn't make mastery any better for PvE Fury), but mastery also increases healing from Enraged Regen. With 10.05 mastery, my Enraged Regen heals 53% of my total health over 10 secs, so it's a quite nice HoT for soloing Problim or surviving a bit longer in Tol Barad.

So yeah, 5 abilities, one of them useless (Inner Rage), one of the a HoT. Real impressive dps stat that mastery.

Speech
01-10-2011, 04:08 PM
I would like to see mastery increase the chance of a bloodsurge proc. That would add a bit more to a stagnant rotation.

Macar
01-11-2011, 01:44 AM
Honestly, I know why it's like that, the problem is that when you're that low level, you're still being pushed a bit by not having anything to do.

Am only Ilvl 340 with my gearset as SMF. Hardly acceptable and I haven't even jumped into raiding. I've only really noticed this in heroics but again, this is from a skewed situation. Personal gripe more than anything really:

16.24 including precision in hit
6.97 haste
12.80 crit.

All of it abysmally low. I had no problems capping my stats in wrath and bc and vanilla but this time it's just..the 27% hit requirement is rough. It's making the rest of my stats suffer a bit.

At such low rating for crit, crit can be more worth than hit, according to Simulationcraft anyway.

helmerzinho
01-11-2011, 03:35 AM
Thank you for a great guide TGM!

i have a request or so.

On the fron page, the inital post you made with all the nifty stuff, incl some usefull macros.
Would it be possible to add some Power Auras links to usefull stuff like battle trance etc?

i have for two dasy now tried to configure it because warriors now have beame a more and more proc relying class, but i jsut lack the skills to sucess. everytime i try i get the icon up non stop and it dont work nomather how i tweak it ><

also would be nice to include the stack for fury o angerforge (trinket).

now i know this is a lot to ask, but im just hoping for a late X-mas present :D

keep up the good work mate!

coukos
01-11-2011, 03:19 PM
Something about mastery.
I have 906 mastery rating to my warrior http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/silvermoon/coukos/simple
I made some tries to dummies with this 906 mastery and without.
Without 906 mastery ratting I have 121% dmg plus 17 % when enraged and gives me total 138%
With 906 mastery ratting i get 20 % more to a total of 141% dmg, so 906 mastery ratting gives me 3 % increase dmg wich is almost 300 mastery ratting = 1% increase dmg when enraged, Acoording to maxdps my enrage time is arround 84%. So 300 mastery = 1% X 83/100 = 0.83 dmg increase
Lets say that instead of 300 mastery i will go for 300 hit = 2.5 % chance to hit. This hit will affect only my white dps which is arround 25% of my total dmg, So with 300 hit i get 2.5% x 25% = 0.625 % increase dmg + more rage.
So if u have enough hit to keep a stedy and nice rotation seems that mastery is better.
Please if someone undestand the mechanism and i'm mistaken post some lines to inform me.
Thx a lot

Khilbron
01-11-2011, 05:05 PM
Would just like to mention to people that were dreading the impending nerfs, they are nolonger nerfs, Fury is getting a sizeable buff. This info is still PTR, and is subject to change, but as we sit, DAMAGE INC.

Fury:
Cleave now scales from 45% of Attack Power, down from 56.2% of Attack Power.
Bloodthirst now scales from 80% of Attack Power, up from 62%.
Raging Blow now deals 145% weapon damage, up from 80%.
Unshackled Fury now Increases the benefit of abilities that cause or require you to be enraged by 44.8% (up from 37.6%). Each point of Mastery increases enrage effects by an additional 5.6%. (Up from 4.7%)

Arms:
Heroic Strike now scales from 93% of Attack Power, up from 75% of Attack Power.
Juggernaut now also makes your Charge ability usable in all stances.
War Academy now increases the damage of "Mortal Strike, Raging Blow, Devastate, Victory Rush and Slam" instead of "Heroic Strike, Cleave, Victory Rush and Slam".

With the exception of colossus smash these changes mean every ability we use in our rotation is getting a 25% or higher increase, and in the case of Raging Blow, a 55% increase.

mallevolent
01-11-2011, 05:42 PM
Inner Rage has been redesigned. It now reduces the cooldown on Heroic Strike and Cleave by 50% (to 1.5 second) for the next 15 seconds. 1-minute cooldown. It still cannot be used during Deadly Calm. This ability was originally designed to help warriors with rage capping, but the Heroic Strike and rage normalization changes seem to have solved that problem on their own. This new design will still allow warriors to burn off excess rage faster, at their discretion.

Slam cast time is now affected by haste.

Kazeyonoma
01-11-2011, 05:57 PM
INNNNNNNNNNTERESTING hrmmm

Baba
01-12-2011, 07:33 AM
VERY nice changes! Inner rage is interesting, still requires more rage than I have right now, but I can see using it, unlike the current Inner Rage which I have never used and never put on a toolbar.

Baba
01-12-2011, 07:35 AM
Something about mastery.
Acoording to maxdps my enrage time is arround 84%.

That seems extraordinarily high enrage time for a fury war.

Baba
01-12-2011, 07:40 AM
Would just like to mention to people that were dreading the impending nerfs, they are nolonger nerfs, Fury is getting a sizeable buff. This info is still PTR, and is subject to change, but as we sit, DAMAGE INC.

Fury:
Cleave now scales from 45% of Attack Power, down from 56.2% of Attack Power.
Bloodthirst now scales from 80% of Attack Power, up from 62%.
Raging Blow now deals 145% weapon damage, up from 80%.
Unshackled Fury now Increases the benefit of abilities that cause or require you to be enraged by 44.8% (up from 37.6%). Each point of Mastery increases enrage effects by an additional 5.6%. (Up from 4.7%)

Arms:
Heroic Strike now scales from 93% of Attack Power, up from 75% of Attack Power.
Juggernaut now also makes your Charge ability usable in all stances.
War Academy now increases the damage of "Mortal Strike, Raging Blow, Devastate, Victory Rush and Slam" instead of "Heroic Strike, Cleave, Victory Rush and Slam".

With the exception of colossus smash these changes mean every ability we use in our rotation is getting a 25% or higher increase, and in the case of Raging Blow, a 55% increase.

These sound too good to be true reading it for the 3rd time, especially an increase to HS.

Yves
01-12-2011, 07:43 AM
Inner Rage has been redesigned. It now reduces the cooldown on Heroic Strike and Cleave by 50% (to 1.5 second) for the next 15 seconds. 1-minute cooldown. It still cannot be used during Deadly Calm. This ability was originally designed to help warriors with rage capping, but the Heroic Strike and rage normalization changes seem to have solved that problem on their own. This new design will still allow warriors to burn off excess rage faster, at their discretion.

Slam cast time is now affected by haste.

i like the pieces in bold, though i don't see how they think we could rage cap a lot.
At least i am hardly ever rage capped, in raids probably more ofc.

Symph
01-12-2011, 07:53 AM
Our DPS is definitely going to go up because of the buffs mentioned and how well the buffs are gonna scale with Raging Blow. Not only is the Raging Blow weapon damage component increased, but our mastery is also getting a buff (although not quite that huge), thus increasing flat Raging Blow damage more and indirectly by more mastery = more damage from enrage = higher raging blows. We honestly probably won't see a huge change at first (regarding mastery), but once we get to higher tiers (with much more stats, generally having more mastery on gear. And once we get to a high enough gear level where we won't have to reforge all our mastery to hit or crit (of course depending on how out of control they make crit rating this expansion)) it'll definitely be noticeable how huge the effect of mastery has on Raging Blow.

Inner Rage is still gonna be fairly useless. I'll just copy/paste what I basically wrote on my guilds forums, Inc wall of text and I had to edit some of it for langauge (lol):

Can't say this change isn't a good thing in the long run. While it doesn't improve current DPS at all, it's still in the right direction and is a good bit better than the old mechanic. Currently, I don't even use HS on CD, unless it's during heroism and I get really lucky and don't miss, but I pretty much NEVER rage cap or find myself with so much rage that I can't use my abilities quickly enough. I simply don't have enough rage to really do that and keep up my standard rotation. I still don't see many warriors using this ability (this is completely excluding prot warriors) unless there's a ton of raid damage in future encounters (why I didn't say now, I'll explain in a few), but even on fights with heavy raid damage (such as Nef or Chimaeron), the damage is spiky and inconsistent, and of course by inconsistent I mean that I realize the RAID damage may be consistent and there is always something to heal, but most of the abilities are either targeted or only happen every so often with a decently long cool down. So basically when Nef's electrocute happens or Chimaerans massacre hits, it immediately bumps me to full rage. But these abilities are paced and not constant, so it's not like I have a steady income of rage from raid damage.

Also even after I rage cap from getting hit incredibly hard, I have absolutely no issues at all spending all my rage using my abilities (Colossus Smash = 20 rage, Heroic Strike (30 rage) + Bloodthirst (20 rage) = 50 rage, Raging Blow = 20 rage, that's 90 rage. Bloodthirst is on a 3s CD, which means I can use it every other GCD, so after I unload all those attacks, I can use Bloodthirst to dump 20 more which puts me way below the rage cap. And yes that all ends up costing 110 rage, but of course I'm gonna be gaining rage from auto attacks while all of this is happening, and if for some reason I still have more rage, Heroic Strike for another 30 rage. This is how easy it is without the use of the current bad Inner Rage and this change will definitely will not cause me to use the new one, meaning the new Inner Rage is not gonna help at all (DPS wise) and I don't see myself ever using it. I'm just happy they at least realized it was a flawed design before and they made it useful for tanks (could be wrong here of course, maybe a tank can confirm this better).

Again edited out a bunch of stuff including PvP effects and some harsh language. Also I apologize for it being really dumbed down but I was trying to explain it to people who don't play warriors and didn't wanna retype the whole thing. Anyways, that's just my opinion.


These sound too good to be true reading it for the 3rd time, especially an increase to HS.
It's still gonna be a nerf to HS because of War Academy.

Thegreatme
01-12-2011, 08:03 AM
I remain incredibly skeptical about these supposed HS buffs, When I get home later today I intend to play around on the PTR to see if this is in fact the case. As for the inner rage change, it's more or less awful. it's just making the talent more situational than it already is. in current gear levels it's not going to do much, but that will more than likely change later in the expansion


It's still gonna be a nerf to HS because of War Academy.
no, if it is indeed .93*ap, then it's a buff even with losing war academy by about 8%

Baba
01-12-2011, 08:34 AM
I don't see why they just don't do something simple with Inner Rage. Keep it as is (or increase its cost to 100 rage) BUT remove the double-rage penalty maybe. As it is, we got (like all classes) only 3 new skills from 80 to 85, CS and Heroic Leap are great, Inner rage is virtually useless. I assume they'll fix it eventually, but only if we keep attesting to its uselessness.

Symph
01-12-2011, 01:47 PM
no, if it is indeed .93*ap, then it's a buff even with losing war academy by about 8%
Mmmm yeah you're right. I didn't read into enough the patch notes and assumed that the 20% less damage meant 20% less AP to the coefficient. My apologies. Unless that is what it means then I don't understand how it isn't a nerf, if you wouldn't mind explaining your math because clearly I'm doing something wrong in my calculations.

Mutah
01-13-2011, 11:47 AM
Really nice guide. i have a fast question.
I have heard that cap for hit rating is 27% or at least you should aim for that? is that a lie or is there something about it :) ?

Pek
01-13-2011, 07:42 PM
8% Hit is for specials. 27% is for dual wield white swings.

meode
01-14-2011, 01:52 AM
Reccomendations for valor points? Ive already bought the trinket, and have the tier legs from argaloth, thinking going for the chest for the 2piece is gonna be best, sitting on about 2k points now

Sennex
01-14-2011, 07:12 AM
Really love the guide, but I have a question here.
I stopped raiding just before Cata came out, and I had stopped tanking a few months before that. I just want to play the solo/ rep grind game while I finish my degree (16 more weeks WOOT). That being said I am insanely interested in the SMF Fury spec.

Is there an "optimum" spec when working towards only using one hander's? Or do you guys have any suggestions? Fury is completely out of my comfort zone as I have been tanking for the last 4 years or I would just "wing" it

Speech
01-14-2011, 11:29 AM
TG and SMF specs are the same, save for that one point.

Onetuth
01-17-2011, 07:24 PM
Okay....another thank you post! :)

Huge thank you TGM! Been following your posts for a long time now!
You never fail to deliver!

Dreadstro
01-18-2011, 10:49 AM
with the buff to HS, do you think it would be worthwhile to take a point out of deep wounds and add it to incite?

Loganisis
01-18-2011, 12:01 PM
HS Buff?

http://www.wowhead.com/patchnotes=4.0.6-ptr

Heroic Strike damage has been reduced by 20%.

alwaysme
01-19-2011, 03:05 AM
Hi, thank you for making this guide, without it i would be totally lost (somewhere near the bottom of the divine damage meter no doubt). I just have a couple of questions that have been nagging me.

Execute spam - Should i wait for 30 rage before pressing it?

The stat weights - They've changed recently. It used to be just haste in the square brackets, hit was above crit and haste was above mastery. What prompted this change? Were the previous weights just wrong or have the weights changed to account for the HS nerfs and main ability buffs next patch?

Adequate rage - This is a very grey area, i assume by this you mean you can do your base rotation (with very little rage dumping) without having to miss a gcd due to low rage more than a couple of times a fight. Would about 15-18% hit (including precision) be a roundabout amount to be able to do that? I understand that you simply can't give a number due to the number being different from warrior to warrior, but surely a rough estimate is possible?

Bung
01-19-2011, 04:44 AM
The stat weight is a big question that I'm pretty sure is still being debated. I would like a "hard" number answer too like "15% hit is your goal", but unfortunately it doesn't exist. This problem will be reviewed again by theory people like TGM after the next patch. I really believe for now the right thing to do is to reforge expertise to soft cap first. Secondly reforge crit on gear that has hit, and reforge hit on gear that has crit. Reforge from haste and mastery.

Palhbook
01-22-2011, 09:59 PM
hey guys :)
(long time reader, first time poster).
First of all, let's say the obvious : Super interesting thread so far ! The guide is also awesome and helped me a lot to improve both my rotations and understand the (current) stats priority.

The only thing I still have hard time to decide/find is what's BiS heroic gear (PRE-RAID) for our class; based on the last thoughts developed in this thread.

http://www.maxdps.com is of course a good base but I thought I could ask here if you guys would have any thoughts about that :)

-Palh

Kongolo
01-24-2011, 12:23 AM
Hi (long time reader first poster) :D

very nice guide for sure,

personaly i prefer this build, http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LGZIrrcszkofdZh:zkmrwV0mc
as for rotation.

i dont use a specifice one, usually open with (Heroic throw) then (Sunder Armor) then (Colossus Smash), after i have 3 stacks of sunder armor my attacks is like this:

1- Slam, if Bloodsurg is up .
2- Raging blow when its up.
3- Heroic strike whenever i have 60+ rage OR battle shout are ready.
4- and ofc bloodthirst.

after that colossus smash if its up to restack sunder armor.

and i save recklessness for excution.. and use deathwish whenever there is a little tougher enemies.

Hope this helps.

Vincenoir
01-24-2011, 04:11 AM
Hi (long time reader first poster) :D

very nice guide for sure,

personaly i prefer this build, http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LGZIrrcszkofdZh:zkmrwV0mc
as for rotation.
For PvP that spec is fine. It takes the self healing talents and the MS affect on your auto attacks.

From a PvE stand point though, those talents are wasted on potential DPS gains in the arms tree. In PvE you shouldn't be getting hit, that's the tanks job. The 3/3 in Blood Craze is therefor wasted and much better spent elsewhere. 8/31/2 or 7/31/3 are typical PvE specs because they use as many DPS talents as possible.

Long story short: more DPS > a little self healing.

Thegreatme
01-24-2011, 06:40 AM
slam is out lowest damaging ability right now, and will continue to be after the patch. prioritizing slam over something else if you have the rage to do something else is a DPS loss.

Kongolo
01-24-2011, 12:53 PM
For PvP that spec is fine. It takes the self healing talents and the MS affect on your auto attacks.

From a PvE stand point though, those talents are wasted on potential DPS gains in the arms tree. In PvE you shouldn't be getting hit, that's the tanks job. The 3/3 in Blood Craze is therefor wasted and much better spent elsewhere. 8/31/2 or 7/31/3 are typical PvE specs because they use as many DPS talents as possible.

Long story short: more DPS > a little self healing.

well, you will get hit sometimes and healers focusing much more on keeping tanks alive (specially after cata).

as for slam, should i take the 3 points from bloodsurg..? untill further notic/update :P

1 more question, how far do i need to go with hit-rate? currently i have 5.69% - 8.69%


Thx in advance :)

Sylvás
01-24-2011, 10:51 PM
well, you will get hit sometimes and healers focusing much more on keeping tanks alive (specially after cata).

as for slam, should i take the 3 points from bloodsurg..? untill further notic/update :P

1 more question, how far do i need to go with hit-rate? currently i have 5.69% - 8.69%


Thx in advance :)

If you're getting hit, then you need to check your aggro or the tank needs to check his. Either way, in current content Blood Craze will never mean the difference between life and death, especially as a DPS.

As for slam, while it is our lowest damage move and should only be used when nothing else is available, Bloodsurge is still worth putting points into, simply because there are often times when we have no abilities left to use other than slam, and not having Bloodsurge up would mean wasting a GCD completely.

With hit rating, after achieving your 8% special (yellow) cap, and 26/26 expertise (dodge cap) you should ideally be aiming for 27% hit rating (white cap) to produce a steady rate of rage income. This will likely not be achievable however until heroic raid gear this tier, or until next tier. It is still the best path to focus down and you should be aiming to get there regardless.

Hope this helped,

Cheers

balane
01-28-2011, 02:22 AM
Do I have my post 4.06 gear information correct? (Assuming the patch notes on the PTR as they now stand will remain in their current state.) Fury PVE

Meta: Str + 3% crit dmg
Gem as much red as possible but take advantage of useful socket bonuses like +10 str or crit. But I want to pile the strength on with gems as much as possible.

Reforging;

hit to soft cap > exp cap > crit > mastery > hit to hard cap > haste

Is this accurate and will yield the best raid boss dps after patch goes live?

Thanks.

Destruyen
01-28-2011, 03:30 AM
hit cap > exp cap > crit > mastery > haste > hard cap hit after patch. also, smf is looking like the way to go if everything stays the same right now on ptr, or at least dead even with tg.

Fraya
01-29-2011, 01:43 PM
"Hit(till 8%) > Expertise(till 26) > Strength >[ Hit> Haste](until Rage generation is adequate) > Crit > Mastery > Hit> Haste"

So I’m having a hard time understanding this stat priority thing. I’m looking for a more in depth explanation to the above. (Just for reference my dps ranges from 9k-11k at times "overall" sometimes 19k but that's per trash pull and its AoE so i wouldn't really count that)

I've read through some of the post here (obviously not all of them) and what I’m seeing is i want 8% hit and 26/26 expertise then everything else goes into Hit basically for reforging and try and get to the (currently unreachable) hit cap.

How and when should I be using Str, crit, and haste gems in my gear? as well as using my reforges for such things? (except in the extreme case my gear contains both hit and exp stats)

If the hit cap is unreachable atm (this has been fairly obvious for some time) then why on earth would i consider putting points into things like Haste, Str, and Crit?

If you say for rage generation could you please explain to me how i can tell if I’m gaining enough rage? Right now i feel I’m gaining it a smooth pace but there are at time when i need to Interrupt and I just won’t have any for that split second. I usually conserve/watch my rage on bosses as I should be so i don't run into that problem there, just on trash like in BWC or minor things, but my starts aren’t prioritized like you have set above, mainly everything is in hit atm with a lil here and there set towards Exp.

I’m going to reforge tonight so that i get 26/26 expertise as advised and then stack what’s left into hit.(i have a good amount to stack into hit atm so getting past 8% + 26/26 is no problem.) However I’d like to hear back from the author or someone else before i go and re gem my gear.

I know that's a lot of text, sorry, but thank you anyone willing to answer me. (Fraya Armory (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/thunderlord/fraya/advanced))

Destruyen
01-29-2011, 04:37 PM
trying to get to 27% hit is pointless since you don't need that much hit. don't reforge everything into hit, after a few raids you should have an idea of your rage gen and be able to reforge haste and extra hit into crit. if you can keep your rotation going without rage starving then you have good rage gen and don't need excess hit.

Sylvás
01-30-2011, 04:06 AM
trying to get to 27% hit is pointless since you don't need that much hit. don't reforge everything into hit, after a few raids you should have an idea of your rage gen and be able to reforge haste and extra hit into crit. if you can keep your rotation going without rage starving then you have good rage gen and don't need excess hit.

I have to disagree with this, at least how it currently is on live, though i highly doubt it will change come the patch, unless there is a big change i am unaware of.

At the moment, other than strength and the obvious hit/exp caps, getting our soft cap for hit is the SAFEST and most stable income for rage generation. While crit will have a positive effect on your rage income, it isn't guaranteed and when it does spike, you usually cannot spend it all quick enough with our rage dump (inner rage) working how it currently is. Whether this single move will change our gearing ideology come the patch, i can't say but personally i highly doubt it.

So to sum up, in my view, if you want stable, consistent DPS from boss to boss then i would aim for the 27% hit cap before thinking of crit/haste/mastery as crit is not the best way to guarantee rage income.

Macar
01-30-2011, 05:09 AM
... i highly doubt it will change come the patch, unless there is a big change i am unaware of.

This. Actually there is such a change, since Heroic Strike damage is getting nerfed so much there is not much need to go for so much hit as to be able to hit Heroic Strike on a regular basis. Basically you only need to keep up Bloodthirst, Raging Blow and Clolossus Smash.

balane
01-30-2011, 01:56 PM
With heroic strike out of the picture rage gen is a non-factor. After patch I'll be going as close t0 8% as I can get without going under and reforging everything I can into crit and mastery. Anything gem related will be for strength boosts.

The other day I tried a low hit build (~9.5%) in Baradin's Hold on live. I removed HS from my rotation on the boss just to test my rage, it was replaced with procced Slam (Which is what I'll be using in 4.06) My rage was fine throughout the entire fight, never starved.

Personally I'm very much looking forward to the patch and dumping all my over hit.

mallevolent
01-31-2011, 07:05 AM
With heroic strike out of the picture rage gen is a non-factor. After patch I'll be going as close t0 8% as I can get without going under and reforging everything I can into crit and mastery. Anything gem related will be for strength boosts.

The other day I tried a low hit build (~9.5%) in Baradin's Hold on live. I removed HS from my rotation on the boss just to test my rage, it was replaced with procced Slam (Which is what I'll be using in 4.06) My rage was fine throughout the entire fight, never starved.

Personally I'm very much looking forward to the patch and dumping all my over hit.

How did your dps compare to a high hit build?

I was stacked up to ~22% hit, but because of the impending heroic strike nerfs and rotational buffs, I have it down to around 15% to practice with lower rage, etc.

I definitely feel like my DPS has gone down, not due to rage starvation, but definitely do to significantly less heroic strikes. Since it will be hitting for a lot less post patch, I guess this is still the right mindset, but at the moment with how hard heroic strike hits I can't see a low hit build putting out more dps.

Nighthorror
01-31-2011, 08:47 AM
So to sum up, in my view, if you want stable, consistent DPS from boss to boss then i would aim for the 27% hit cap before thinking of crit/haste/mastery as crit is not the best way to guarantee rage income.

There is no need for hit after 20% and if you really are good at managing rage then even 16% is enough. Anything after 20% and you still have rage problems you are doing something really wrong. Not to mention you will be gimping your other stats BIG TIME. After the patch drops it will be interesting to see if 8% is viable again because if it is our BIS list and itemization will change drastically. We will be able to focus on stats that will increase our numbers more like Str and Crit.

balane
01-31-2011, 04:53 PM
How did your dps compare to a high hit build?

I was stacked up to ~22% hit, but because of the impending heroic strike nerfs and rotational buffs, I have it down to around 15% to practice with lower rage, etc.

I definitely feel like my DPS has gone down, not due to rage starvation, but definitely do to significantly less heroic strikes. Since it will be hitting for a lot less post patch, I guess this is still the right mindset, but at the moment with how hard heroic strike hits I can't see a low hit build putting out more dps.

Well this was on live so I wasn't using HS and my dps suffered. I was only testing my rage generation with low hit and no HS. It was fine. I won't even be using HS, well seldom, after the patch goes live.

Right now on live I'm running 12% hit, stacking crit instead, and my DPS is roughly the same as when I was running ~17%, maybe a little better but I do have to watch my rage closely currently. I can tell the biggest drop on my DPS during heavy interupt fights where I must have rage available all the time. That's really the only time I miss my hit.

Baba
02-01-2011, 11:07 AM
Even after patch, why wouldn't you be using HS? IF you have the rage, it's extra damage you'll do that doesn't cost GCD. IF you have the extra rage, there is nothing else to do with it.

It will be lame if we're just pushing 1 button most of the time (BT) and a 2nd button sometimes (RB) and a 3rd every 20s (CS).

Kazeyonoma
02-01-2011, 11:11 AM
yes, of course, you'll still hit HS if you're swimming in rage, but your rotation will basically be based around hitting BT, RB, CS, and now actually using your Slam procs from bloodsurge instead of just stacking hit so you can spam HS consistently. use HS if you have lots of rage, otherwise, just keep up the bt/rb/cs/slam usage.

Krenian
02-01-2011, 01:11 PM
Having downgraded the importance of HS, you will probably see a less sizable amount of focus on Hit like we do now. In a way, Blizzard fixed our problem of wanting so much hit by de-emphasizing Heroic Strike in this fashion.

It's a shame but it seems like we'll mostly focus on our main attacks and just HS as a dump, one of those "Eh, Okay, my rage is getting up there, might wanna dump it so I don't cap it and I do more damage while I got everything on CD." One of those last resort type of deals.

balane
02-02-2011, 12:54 AM
yes, of course, you'll still hit HS if you're swimming in rage, but your rotation will basically be based around hitting BT, RB, CS, and now actually using your Slam procs from bloodsurge instead of just stacking hit so you can spam HS consistently. use HS if you have lots of rage, otherwise, just keep up the bt/rb/cs/slam usage.

As of now these are pretty much my exact intentions when 4.06 goes live. Forging everything into crit and see just how little hit I can get away with and keep my rotation alive. Maybe it will change but this is what I'm going to be using initially.

Just think of all the goodness this patch will bring us; lots of strength gems, a perfect meta, sockets in crafted gear, and most importantly being able to stack pure damage-numbers-increasing secondary stats and not rage generating stats. I honestly can't wait to play the new fury warrior because I'm not a huge fan of this one.

Bung
02-02-2011, 07:20 AM
I agree balane, and in addition making SMF viable with basically the same rotation is exciting. I don't know about most of you but lava spines are really easy to get with so little competition.

Baba
02-02-2011, 07:58 AM
I am really hoping SMF is equally viable to TG with equal level gear. They fucked the 2H loot tables imo. We can get 2-3 caster weapons just farming trash, and more from bosses. But if the 2h doesn't drop that week? yep, screwed again, and competition is huge with ret pallies, DK's and arms wars. I wish that BOE fist weapon set was both str. Would be great for me with orc racial. But will have to go sword MH + fist/sword OH.

Krenian
02-02-2011, 08:54 AM
Nice thing about SMF is that all they honestly need to do is tweak that percentage that SMF gives until it works out to be the same as TG. It'll offset the stat loss you would go by using SMF weapons.

Yves
02-02-2011, 06:19 PM
I am not sure but i am having a serious issue with misses in raids.
Running with 13.57%(1269) hit, 17.31%(1747) crit.

And last night we did Bastion and for example on Halfus i was having 12.6% misses.

This sounds a lot to me, not sure if it can be avoid, or if i should consider it normal with not being able to hit cap.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2czues9.jpg

Loganisis
02-02-2011, 06:47 PM
28% is white hit cap, you have 13.57%, meaning that 14.43% is your chance for melee (white) to miss. Looks like you had a good hit streak going there, as you would expect it to be 14.43% miss, on average.

Check your yellow attacks (BT, RB, etc) I doubt you'll see any misses.

Your miss rate was actually higher in Wrath, when your target was 8% (including precision). Nothing is wrong here.

Yves
02-02-2011, 07:24 PM
Oh yeah your right, was totally not thinking about BT, RB etc...
Was getting confused thought i did something wrong on my reforging.

guess i need some sleep haha.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Sylvás
02-03-2011, 04:17 AM
I seem to have missed something massive, if someone could explain to me why going down to the 8% hit cap in the next patch is going to be better DPS?

The way the rotation is working on live with high hit is essentially the standard priority of CS - BT - RB - BS Slam and using HS every time it's available, if you can afford it without causing you to be unable to use one of the 3 above abilities. I understand that we are getting sizeable buffs to our key rotation abilities, but if we continue with a high level of hit we should still be able to spam HS as much as we do now. Even though it will hit for much less, it's still going to be doing damage, but more importantly it doesn't use a GCD so there isn't a downside so long as you can continue to use your rotation abilities.

I don't understand how going down to such low levels of hit is going to be beneficial if it means we cannot use as many HS's, considering we don't lose anything by using it. Can anyone clarify what i'm missing? In my mind pressing an extra button that does a good amount of damage is still going to be worth 4-5% extra crit chance, surely?

gacktt
02-03-2011, 05:56 AM
Are we actually getting a DPS buff overall with 4.0.6? we got some good damage buffs but we'll definitely not want to heroic strike until we're at like 75 rage or something cause its so weak.

Loganisis
02-03-2011, 06:02 AM
No one is saying go down to 8%. But 20%+ will be wasted rating as well since you will hit HS far less. Right now more hit gives more rage allowing you to use HS more, which hits for a crapload.

In 4.0.6 HS is getting rolled back by 20%, so it's importance will be far less (a true rage dump) so you will only 'need' enough rage to keep BT-RB-BT-Slam/Free GCD with CS on CD going. When you get to that point (which will be lower for Fury warriros that run with Surv Hunters or Frost DKs) you'll go crit and mastery as they will have better return per rating.

Sky
02-03-2011, 06:02 AM
This is a fun thread to read!

Sylvás
02-03-2011, 07:51 AM
No one is saying go down to 8%. But 20%+ will be wasted rating as well since you will hit HS far less. Right now more hit gives more rage allowing you to use HS more, which hits for a crapload.

In 4.0.6 HS is getting rolled back by 20%, so it's importance will be far less (a true rage dump) so you will only 'need' enough rage to keep BT-RB-BT-Slam/Free GCD with CS on CD going. When you get to that point (which will be lower for Fury warriros that run with Surv Hunters or Frost DKs) you'll go crit and mastery as they will have better return per rating.

My point is who has said we should hit HS far less? It hits like a truck on live, and a 20-35% nerf isn't going to make it useless. If we can opt to retain our current rage generation, and continue to press it nearly every cooldown, then surely that will outweigh the buff of having additional crit/mastery?

I guess i have to hit the PTR to try it out myself, but i'm still not convinced that going from high hit to more crit/mastery is going to outweigh additional HS's, even in it's nerfed state.

Thegreatme
02-03-2011, 08:59 AM
Raging blow is getting a very significant buff in the form of buffs to mastery and war academy affecting raging blow. HS usage will not go to 0, I guarantee it; it will however be a less attractive ability. Even right now crits value is greater than hit's but it's subject to large variances in DPS due to RNG and player error.

With 8% hit we will still have more than enough rage generation to maintain our RB/BT/CS usage 100%, sure RNG can make it difficult at times but it will by no means be impossible.

EDIT: further proof HS's damage per rage is going to be abysmal and that itemizing around getting more HS's is not the best option:

HS damage:
1.21*(.60*(AP+8))=.726(AP+8)=0.726AP+5.808

Damage per rage:
(1/30)*(0.726AP+5.808) = 0.0242ap+0.1923

For all practical purposes you can drop the 0.1923, leaving you with just 0.0242AP

Using a value of 15000 ap lets put some numbers out there:

Damage during CS:10890
DPR during CS:363

for damage outside of CS you need to tack on a (26070/(26070+11977)) to the front of the equation
Damage outside of CS: 7461.88
DPR outside of CS:248

versus something like BT:
assuming you have the 2pc t11 bonus
damage 1.39755*(AP*.62) = 0.866481*AP
DPR: (0.866481*AP)*1/20 = 0.04332405*AP

during CS
damage: 12997
DPR: 649.86

Outside CS:
damage: 8905.75
DPR:445.28

Sylvás
02-03-2011, 04:43 PM
Can we effectively compare HS's new damage to any other ability though? What i am suggesting is that we continue to use HS as we do currently, without sacrificing BT, RB or any of our other core abilities. Will having additional mastery and crit chance convincingly outweigh less heroic strike usage, and a few extra white hits?

Bad doesn't sum up how terrible i am at the math side of this, so apologies for driving the point but it seems very difficult to measure what causes more DPS, additional ability usage or additional secondary stats which is why i'm having troubles grasping the gearing changes.

Loganisis
02-03-2011, 06:49 PM
Hopefully I don't screw this up... if I do, I'll delete it, but for example, going from 16% hit to 10% hit would give you something like 720 rating points. 720 rating points is 4 mastery (or some amount of crit). Just looking at mastery at the 4.0.6 rate of 1 mastery gives enraged abilities/abilities requireing enrage 5.7% boost... That's 22.8%... So:

RB would be damage * 1.228
DW's 1.3 would be buffed by current mastery + .228 (so if you have 10 mastery currently, for .57 mastery, adding 4 more would make it .789 [.57 + .228]... So... instead of deathwish being damage * 1.3 (30% damage buff) it would be.... damage * (1.3*1.789).... If I'm not screwing this up.

Recklessness would also be affected (how I'm not sure)... Not DPS but Enraged Regneration also... I think there are 1 or 2 more I'm forgetting.



So it isn't that HS's aren't nice, it's that the rating points that give you more HS will end up giving you more to your other abilities (crit or mastery) in 4.0.6.

Hopefully this is fairly accurate and doesn't muddy the water.

Warscar
02-04-2011, 09:28 AM
They say that even on Live, picking Crit > Hit is a small DPS gain. Therefore, when the patch hits and HS is weaker, the Hit build will fall even more behind, making Crit >> Hit. The new Stat priority will be like:

Hit Cap = Exp Cap > Str > Crit > Mastery > Hit > Haste

balane
02-05-2011, 09:21 AM
I've seen a few PTR guys put hit-over-8% even below Haste on the pecking order.

With so much haste on our T11 gear (4 pieces for some reason I'm not smart enough to comprehend.) it would be nice if that's the case.

I assume thegreatme will be updating this thread at some point so I'll be checking back with his findings. There's a handful of guys who I try to keep track of on fury dps info, this is definitely one of those.

Loganisis
02-05-2011, 09:48 AM
Hit > Haste. It generates more rage per 1% (and requires the same rating) and results in a lower chance of miss strings.

That being said - because blizzard loves to make you scream with itemization, in full valor gear, you probably won't need more than 8% hit, even reforging haste into crit/mastery just because you'll have enough hit and haste to maintain your rotation.

I'd be interested in seeing why some think haste is more valuable. It doesn't affect ability CD (so doesn't increase RB/CS etc) and is not as good for rage or for landing attacks as hit.

Baba
02-06-2011, 10:08 AM
So should I reforge haste into hit (when haste/hit are the only options)?
e.g. I am expertise capped, I have 1119 haste, 18.92% hit (with talents). I have an item with crit and haste. Should I reforge the haste into hit?

balane
02-07-2011, 01:48 AM
Today you would reforge the haste on your example item into Hit.

From Tuesday morning forward you'll be reforging that haste into Mastery.

Asmalya
02-07-2011, 01:54 AM
Or reforge Haste to Mastery with 4.0.6 hitting tommorow for us and wednesday for eu

Destruyen
02-07-2011, 03:41 AM
So should I reforge haste into hit (when haste/hit are the only options)?
e.g. I am expertise capped, I have 1119 haste, 18.92% hit (with talents). I have an item with crit and haste. Should I reforge the haste into hit?

since there are no longer 3 stats per item on plate, you would have a choice of reforging haste into mastery if the item doesn't already have mastery or haste into crit if it doesn't have crit but has mastery.

Sylvás
02-07-2011, 04:16 AM
Has anyone done extensive testing regarding what sort of hit we should be aiming for come the new patch? Or, are we going with "Until you feel you have enough rage generation"?

Baba
02-07-2011, 08:18 AM
Today you would reforge the haste on your example item into Hit.

From Tuesday morning forward you'll be reforging that haste into Mastery.

Is the small mastery buff really good enough to transform it from such a crappy fury stat to a high-priority one?

Also, I realize the lower priority on HS, but what I am not reading here is the importance of white melee to our dps. Straight melee autoattacks is always my no.1 damage. I am also not sure how this fundamentally affects our rotation--after 4.0.6, our top dps priority is making sure to hit CS, BT, RB, Slam-proc everytime they're up, but this isn't really different than now (especially because now, pre-4.0.6, wimpy slam procs don't interfere with HS). What I'm saying is, isn't our best possible dps still basically being able to hit everything including HS on cooldown? Which is what I'm trying to do pre-4.0.6.

Thegreatme
02-07-2011, 09:01 AM
The biggest reason why mastery is going to be good now, which a lot of people aren't thinking about is the fact that war academy is going to affect RB.

because the effects are multiplicative, the new mastery (for RB) is essentially 1.15(0.057*mastery)*1.2 *weapon damage or 0.07866*mastery, which is significant.

Baba
02-07-2011, 09:38 AM
Is RB always affected by mastery? I guess I am missing a full picture of fury mastery. I thought it just buffed the deathwish % and the enrage % (and the enraged regen %). A lot of my RB's are activated by berserker rage, which I didn't think benefited from mastery in any way. So mastery affects RB % directly (e.g. RB mastery buff + enrage mastery buff?)?

Macbrother
02-07-2011, 10:25 AM
Is RB always affected by mastery? I guess I am missing a full picture of fury mastery. I thought it just buffed the deathwish % and the enrage % (and the enraged regen %). A lot of my RB's are activated by berserker rage, which I didn't think benefited from mastery in any way. So mastery affects RB % directly (e.g. RB mastery buff + enrage mastery buff?)?

Yes, always. Check the tooltip in-game, it is 110% base (currently) but will steadily rise as your mastery increases. With 12 mastery, for instance, it hits for just shy of 175%.

Loganisis
02-07-2011, 10:31 AM
Fury mastery affects every abilities that provides enragement or requires being enraged. I always forget one but these are:

Death Wish
Recklessness
Beserker Rage
Raging Blows
Enraged Regeneration

I think I'm forgetting one.

Recklessness is the one I don't understand how it is an enrage, but testing it, with RB not available, hitting Recklessness brings it up as active (meaning when I tried it, it enraged me).

Thegreatme
02-07-2011, 10:46 AM
I think I'm forgetting one.

Recklessness is the one I don't understand how it is an enrage, but testing it, with RB not available, hitting Recklessness brings it up as active (meaning when I tried it, it enraged me).
you forgot enrage.

also, with the way that recklessness works currently, it doesn't benefit from mastery because it already give 100% chance to crit, and mastery would just increase the chance to crit past that point. The real question is whether mastery is affecting recklessness after the patch like one would be lead to believe it should. this is easily testable if the PTR's are still available. If it does benefit from mastery then the new recklessness is going to be even more amazing.

Bung
02-07-2011, 10:57 AM
wimpy slam procs don't interfere with HS-Baba

Whats somewhat not true about this until tomorrow is that many warriors are not using slam at all and making HS the top priority. After Tues the idea becomes to use HS as a rage dump like originally intended.

Loganisis
02-07-2011, 11:11 AM
you forgot enrage.

also, with the way that recklessness works currently, it doesn't benefit from mastery because it already give 100% chance to crit, and mastery would just increase the chance to crit past that point. The real question is whether mastery is affecting recklessness after the patch like one would be lead to believe it should. this is easily testable if the PTR's are still available. If it does benefit from mastery then the new recklessness is going to be even more amazing.

Damn passive talents! LOL - No button, so I keep forgetting it. Thanks

I can't agree with you more on Recklessness - I loved the change, but if the chance is actually going to be .5 * [1+(X * .057)], where X = mastery, for the chance of increased crit.... Oh boy!

Baba
02-07-2011, 12:18 PM
-Baba

Whats somewhat not true about this until tomorrow is that many warriors are not using slam at all and making HS the top priority. After Tues the idea becomes to use HS as a rage dump like originally intended.

I don't see why even pre-4.0.6 you wouldn't use slam, because it costs 0 rage. So it doesn't interact with HS at all with HS being off GCD. It did get less priority than BT, RB.

How does mastery affect berserker rage? Gives your more rage from damage taken?

BTW, will the new recklessness effect ALL attacks during the 12s, or just yellow attacks? Nice either way, but definitely rocking if it's the former, brings it back to the glory days of vanilla recklessness (but with 3 min cooldown!)

squats
02-07-2011, 12:26 PM
I don't see why even pre-4.0.6 you wouldn't use slam, because it costs 0 rage. So it doesn't interact with HS at all with HS being off GCD. It did get less priority than BT, RB.

How does mastery affect berserker rage? Gives your more rage from damage taken?

Its special attacks for recklessness

and mastery increases the rage you gain from the glyph last i checked. albeit a very small amount.


also to TGM. after the patch. will SMF pass TG?

Loganisis
02-07-2011, 12:32 PM
Someone posted a link to the EU Forums and said it was landsoul (but the name didn't match... so I dunno) who said that TG is still > SMF, but by like .4% or something like that, something really measly.

Thegreatme
02-07-2011, 12:39 PM
Yes landsouls preliminary spreadsheet was suggesting that TG was ahead of SMF only by a hair, but for 9/10 people all it means is that go with what ever spec you have the best itemization for (read: Weapons)

Genesis_Omega
02-08-2011, 04:53 AM
I had to go SMF, I got both Lava Spine and Claws of Agony, but after a few rounds with Magmaw, and a ton of time sinked into Arch no luck with any 2hs.

Speaking of which, how will itemization and rotation change from TG to SMF? I feel like the differnces are negligent but enough to warrent some attention. Any ideas here?

Bung
02-08-2011, 06:07 AM
Speaking of which, how will itemization and rotation change from TG to SMF? I feel like the differnces are negligent but enough to warrent some attention. Any ideas here?

Great question. I have to assume that the research on this isn't complete yet. From what I have read the rotations will be similar if not exactly the same unlike prior to the patch. What I'm curious about is if the incite spec is better for SMF after the patch. Deep wounds spec seems like an obvious choice for TG post patch.

Erkebrand
02-08-2011, 06:24 AM
Great question. I have to assume that the research on this isn't complete yet. From what I have read the rotations will be similar if not exactly the same unlike prior to the patch. What I'm curious about is if the incite spec is better for SMF after the patch. Deep wounds spec seems like an obvious choice for TG post patch.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1827667312?page=1#3

Where you will find the following 4.0.6 info based on simcraft-calculations:




Spec: 8/31/2 for both.

Rotation:
BT_BT_BT_BT

SMF fill-in: CS > Slam > RB > Battle Shout
TG fill-in: CS > RB > Slam > Battle shout

Only use execute to maintain executioner, as a extreme rage dump (>85) or as a filler during colossus smash if you don't have slam/RB ready.

Only use heroic strike if the following applies:
Rage > 85 and you're not in execute phase.
Colossus smash and rage > 50
Incite proc (Save for Colossus smash if possible.)
Battle trance proc

Baba
02-08-2011, 06:54 AM
No execute spam? That will be totally lame if CS/execute spam isn't the best dps option <20%. I was so happy to have execute back after 2 expansions spent wandering the wilderness.

Thegreatme
02-08-2011, 06:56 AM
cycling RB's during the execute phase to keep your 4pc buff running is a good thing. also that's guide's suggestion for waiting til 85 rage to use HS is a bit over kill, at 75 rage it will take you at least 2/3 GCD's to hit 0 rage, and at least 3 melee swings to hit 100.

helmerzinho
02-08-2011, 07:19 AM
So from waht i can understand now that 406 is inc is that i should reforge my haste to mastery, keep the mastery i got alrdy and run along with lower hit.
It's not a viable option to reforge away crit as long as you stay on about 15%?

Making priority something like: Expertise 26/26> Hit 8% > Strenght > Crit 15% > mastery > Hit 8%+ > Crit 15%+ > haste

now i am well aware that the hit/haste is focused on rage regeneration and is purely a question about how much you feel you need to blow off the rotation, but i honestly don't see the need to have more than let's say 10% hit now that HS more or less is going away.

TGM, im hoping for a fully Updated 4.0.6 update in the old fashiened "plug and play" style :D

Great work mate.

Baba
02-08-2011, 07:56 AM
Will mastery be as good for SMF as it will be for TG? Seems like slam will have higher priority than RB with SMF, but slam is not affected directly by mastery like RB is. Or is it still basically the same because essentially, we'll still be hitting virtually every RB cd and bloodsurge proc anyway?

Thegreatme
02-08-2011, 09:00 AM
my gut feeling is that mastery is slightly devalued for SMF becuase the total quantity of RB damage damage gained from mastery will be less, though that being said SMF's ability damage with slam and BT is higher than TG so mastery's effect on enrage and what not might offset the lessened effect on RB. either way mastery's value will be relatively the same for both specs,


also there really isn't a whole lot for me to change in my guide, everything except maybe the stat priorities should be fine, and because my stat priorities section is really really broad, I could probably leave it as is and be fine with it.

Baba
02-08-2011, 07:26 PM
I changed so many things tonight, I don't have an accurate measure of my dps. I went from TG with 2 346 Whitefin Axes to SMF with 359 epics, regemmed meta and 10 other gems, reforged a ton of gear. I should have done some test dummy trials before switching spec, but didn't have time before raid. I seem to be doing more dps than before, I hope so, I should be.

klausi
02-08-2011, 07:34 PM
I changed so many things tonight, I don't have an accurate measure of my dps. I went from TG with 2 346 Whitefin Axes to SMF with 359 epics, regemmed meta and 10 other gems, reforged a ton of gear. I should have done some test dummy trials before switching spec, but didn't have time before raid. I seem to be doing more dps than before, I hope so, I should be.
Hum the general idea pre 4.0.6 was already to go with the pair of weapons with higher ilvl, either SMF or TG didn't mattered there. You should have done more dps with SMF before and now the difference must be even bigger :)

The only real advantage of TG in 333/346 gear was the access to more rating. Eg dual Foe Reaper (http://www.wowhead.com/item=65165), human racial and an exp trinket (http://www.wowhead.com/item=56427) and you were capped.

Kamiell
02-08-2011, 07:59 PM
so i changed everything and refoged to follow :

Making priority something like: Expertise 26/26> Hit 8% > Strenght > Crit 15% > mastery > Hit 8%+ > Crit 15%+ > haste


got 18%crit, 11% hit , experties 26, haste 8% and mastery 15% but my dps is much lower now about 5k lower and rage starved all the time even with haste flas and food not sure whats wrong. oh well i will keep testing

Baba
02-08-2011, 08:28 PM
Hum the general idea pre 4.0.6 was already to go with the pair of weapons with higher ilvl, either SMF or TG didn't mattered there. You should have done more dps with SMF before and now the difference must be even bigger :)

The only real advantage of TG in 333/346 gear was the access to more rating. Eg dual Foe Reaper (http://www.wowhead.com/item=65165), human racial and an exp trinket (http://www.wowhead.com/item=56427) and you were capped.

I just got Lava Spine tonight, so just had Claws of Agony OH. And 2 346 axes with good stats when I'm a warrior was pretty nice.

(with battleshout)
I'm at 9481 AP, 6.89% haste, 14.76% hit (with 3% talent), 26 expertise, 10.44 mastery, 20.17% crit. I lost a ton of hit re-gemming from purple and blue str/hit, hit gems to str and str/hit and from some reforging. I'm reluctant to drop even more hit until I'm more comfortable.

artiev
02-08-2011, 09:04 PM
so im sitting at 26/26, 9% hit, 20.25%crit, and 15.57 mastery.. dps is definitely higher, went from around 11-12k on dummy with 19%hit to about 17-18k since the patched dropped

Kamiell
02-08-2011, 11:22 PM
so im sitting at 26/26, 9% hit, 20.25%crit, and 15.57 mastery.. dps is definitely higher, went from around 11-12k on dummy with 19%hit to about 17-18k since the patched dropped

would u mind posting your armory link so i can se ur reforge/gem setup to give me an idea i cant get past 12/13k on dummy when i was doing 15/16k before patch. thanks

Robix
02-08-2011, 11:53 PM
Please people, when you report your stats add Str and haste. Maybe even an item level number. It will be much easier for others to compere their dps on dummy.

Casz
02-09-2011, 04:45 AM
What about gems, I for one can figure out what to put in a blue slot any suggestion?

Parbag
02-09-2011, 04:51 AM
Str/Hit

Casz
02-09-2011, 05:55 AM
Well if the socket bonus is 10 str that would give me total of 30 str and 20 hit instead of 40 str which I consider better?

Krenian
02-09-2011, 07:27 AM
You're losing 10 strength for 20 hit, which hit still is a decent stat Casz. You're getting two increased instead of one.

Instead of thinking you're getting 40 strength, think of it as losing 20 hit.

Bung
02-09-2011, 09:07 AM
I still think for SMF the incite build might be better. I'm able to hit HS above 50 rage with no rage starvation. I don't think Deep wounds does enough of my damage and HS still hits hard. I haven't tried it yet, but I will tonight. Here is my armory in case you have questions about stats:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/Area-52/Bungholiolio/advanced

Kamiell
02-09-2011, 10:21 AM
ok let me put more info:

ilvl 355 (no pvp gear)
haste: 8.39%
Hit: 12.17%
crit: 17.01% (without BS)
Exp: 26
Mastery 13.85

i got a bit better dps but not like i had before patch mu armory link is:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/feathermoon/kamiell/simple

changed a few gems and reforged again but i fell like i rage starve all the time now and my dps is just...ugh

i use the same rotation mention here not using HS at all

Loganisis
02-09-2011, 10:35 AM
so i changed everything and refoged to follow :

Making priority something like: Expertise 26/26> Hit 8% > Strenght > Crit 15% > mastery > Hit 8%+ > Crit 15%+ > haste

Exp26/Hit8% should be fairly equal now, with hit 8% maybe still slightly ahead.

26exp removes what, 8.5% chance of being dodged, 8% hit removes 8% chance of missing (assuming correct DPS placement). But rage is generated on dodged/parried attacks, not on misses, so when *having* to choose between being dodged or missing, I think I'd prefer being dodged. At least that way I still get some rage.


I don't understand why crit @ 15% is a brightline and how hit from 8.01-27% would be more valuable than crit >15%?

I think TGM's right when he said things haven't changed much...

Hit 8% > 26 XP > a little bit more hit until rage is good > Str > Crit > Mastery > hit past comfortable with rage gen > haste

Haste is still such a crappy rating :-/ And it's on everything it feels like.

artiev
02-09-2011, 11:56 AM
hey kamiell heres my armory..

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/the-scryers/legendelite (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/the-scryers/legendelite/simple)

Kamiell
02-09-2011, 02:14 PM
when i tried 8% hit only i was standing there swinging and getting no rage for several ocasions not sure why so i went back up to 12% hit lossing mastery and crit also when i have less than 7 haste seems to be like my toon idles for to long before it swings giving me again rage problems.

i dont think my gear is that bad but i do think im messing up somewere in my stat balance.

artiev
02-09-2011, 02:19 PM
i havent tried 8 hit.. i keep it around 9ish. i do miss alot but the rage regen is of no concern at all. just make sure u get crit and mastery up as much as u can. the crit hits should take care of the rage.

Magnuss
02-09-2011, 08:04 PM
Okay so I need some help here. I am absolutely unconvinced after my own testing that mastery is always greater than stacking hit to high levels. Below I will be explaining what it is that I am seeing and why this is inconsistent with what all current theorycrafting has come up with. Understand that my point with this post is to try and understand the discrepancy I am seeing, and not to just try and argue that my way is better than some other way. Honestly, after doing alot of digging, it makes sense on a whole lot of levels that mastery is the superior stat over stacking hit for fury warriors. Im just not able to confirm it and I would like to know why.

I performed 18 tests on a boss mob level target dummy. 9 tests were done with an emphasis on stacking hit to as high as I could with my gear. 9 tests were done with emphasis on stacking mastery as high as I could with my gear. The gearsets DID NOT change, only gems and reforging (mostly reforging).

Now, I completely understand that a target dummy is not an accurate or even a good representation of actual warrior dps. The lack of raid buffs on me and lack of raid buffs on the boss are significant to the actual damage we do. My testing was merely an attempt to understand the theory that with the changes in 4.0.6, mastery is a better stat to stack on your gear than hit is beyond 8%. The argument is that with a greater amount of hit you are able to heroic strike more and your white swings will do more damage by missing less. With mastery, you maintain your rotation and continue to heroic strike when you have rage but your Raging Blow will hit harder all the time and your Deathwish will be up more often. The reason why I feel my testing is valid is because during a raid environment there is absolutely nothing that will increase your mastery level and cause you to do more damage from Raging Blow that wouldnt already otherwise be applied to a gearset that stacks hit. Conversely with these tests, there are several elements in a raid that can improve your hit further then current levels making testing it on a target dummy a less accurate representation than a raid environment. By this thinking, stacking hit should show itself to be lower by a significant margin than stacking mastery. This is not what I have seen from my testing.

Below are my test result summaries. Please keep in mind that they are summaries of what I wrote down (on paper) and not combat log parses or specific numbers from each test. They are the averages that I concluded from the information I took down because I wasn't trying to go too far overboard:

armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/executus/azzinoth/simple
spec: http://wowtal.com/#k=BeB4M2iT.aei.warrior.RlfZEK
(note the spec is 2/3 incite, this is on purpose to compare gearing and not specs)

Stacking Hit

Stats with Hit (stats inlcude Battle Shout)
7.83% Haste
19.19% Hit
19.87% crit
8.96 Mastery Rating
10493 Attack power

Test Summary with Hit

Each test ran for 7 minutes exactly from behind the target dummy. All cooldowns including Deathwish, Recklessness, and Colossus Smash were popped at the start of the fight and the third Deathwish was popped when Recklessness came off of cooldown to get maximum effect out of the ability.

Priority rotation for hit stacking was as follows:
Colossus Smash > Bloodthirst > Raging Blow > Slam Proc > Heroic Strike

Understand that I used Heroic Strike very liberally without ever breaking this priority list. If I was able to Heroic strike and Bloodthirst and still have enough rage for Raging Blow, then I did it. A test was stopped if at any point in time I broke my priority list by rage starving myself and its results discarded for another attempt.

Also know that with the new mechanics of Inner Rage I was able to pop this and occasionally successfully pull out an extra heroic strike when rage was permitting. This was saved for every other Colossus Smash or during Deathwish/Recklessness burn periods.

Average Statistics across all 9 tests:
Overall DPS: 15.2k

Damage Done to target from abilities from largest to smallest: BT (28.6%) > Melee (23.5%) > Raging Blow Main Hand (12.6%) > Heroic Strike (11.1%) > Raging Blow Off Hand (8.0%) > Slam (6.8%) > Deep Wounds (6.6%) > Colossus Smash (2.9%)

Number of Heroic Strikes: 68



Stacking Mastery

Stats with Mastery (stats inlcude Battle Shout)
7.83% Haste
11.19% Hit
19.60% crit
14.59 Mastery Rating
10493 Attack power

Test Summary with Mastery

Each test ran for 7 minutes exactly from behind the target dummy. All cooldowns including Deathwish, Recklessness, and Colossus Smash were popped at the start of the fight and the third Deathwish was popped when Recklessness came off of cooldown to get maximum effect out of the ability.

Priority rotation for mastery stacking was as follows:
Colossus Smash > Bloodthirst > Raging Blow > Slam Proc > Heroic Strike

For mastery, even though raging blow is a higher damage ability (and indeed the ability I am stacking to improve) it is still most efficient to use Bloodthirst first for the Battle Trance proc as well as the increased chance on Slam. Also note that if a slam was already up and BT came off cooldown, I stuck to the priority list and used BT instead of the slam. This is because BT does SIGNIFICANTLY more damage than slam and can proc the deadly calm. I did however attempt to use every slam I could.

For mastery I also did not always save Battle Trance for a heroic strike and instead incorporated it into my rotation if I was low on rage to ensure that I would be able to complete my rotation at all times.

Understand that I used Heroic Strike when I could without ever breaking this priority list. If I was able to Heroic strike and Bloodthirst and still have enough rage for Raging Blow, then I did it. A test was stopped if at any point in time I broke my priority list by rage starving myself and its results discarded for another attempt.

Also know that with the new mechanics of Inner Rage I was able to pop this and occasionally successfully pull out an extra heroic strike when rage was permitting. This was saved for every other Colossus Smash or during Deathwish/Recklessness burn periods.

Average Statistics across all 9 tests:
Overall DPS: 14.4k

Damage Done to target from abilities from largest to smallest: BT > Melee > Raging Blow Main Hand > Raging Blow Offand > Heroic Strike > Slam > Deep Wounds > Colossus Smash

I do not have average % because I didnt think to write it down until I did my hit tests :-/ however there was significant difference in overall Raging Blow damage between hit and mastery. I dont have the %'s to say definitively but Raging blow did roughly 9% more overall damage with the mastery gear than the hit gear.

Number of Heroic Strikes: 54



Conclusion:

With these tests under the guidelines I mentioned above there was almost 1k dps increase on average between stacking hit to my 19% level and stacking mastery. This is in opposition of the theorycraft model that is being accepted with 4.0.6. I understand that there is a possibility that the mastery superiority has more to do with its reliability in raids, its consistency across all types of mobs and fights, and that perhaps the mastery idea is based off certain gear minimums. I have been unable to find any minimums with reference to these two stats when compared side by side. The general assumption being that regardless of what you are doing, stacking mastery will improve your damage significantly over that of stacking hit to various levels. There is no mention anywhere that I have seen that says your mastery should be at X level before this becomes viable.

Note that with these results, 1k dps does not come from the increased number of heroic strikes and more than likely comes from the increased amount of white swing damage. However I foolishly didn't collect my damage %'s and cannot confirm that at this time. I would like to believe that the top DPS parses in the world from WoL are reliable enough to know that Mastery > Hit with 4.0.6, but I am not seeing that for my gear level under this controlled environment. I also know (as should any fury warrior who has been playing for a while) that being unlucky in a fight can be the difference of about 5k+ dps from one attempt on a boss to another. This means that even if Landsoul has the world top DPS parse on some fight with mastery, he may have just had the stars align absolutely perfectly that one occasion. It is very hard to use that information definitively.

Even still, I am not naive enough to think that going mastery isnt a good thing. It doesnt require nearly the skill or luck that stacking hit has with heroic strike, but I would like to be able to confirm if there is a point where the two specs cross and one becomes superior to another. Or if there is a situation where the truly max dps on a specific encounter can only be achieved by one spec over another because of some reason.

I am hoping with this post that people will sit down and actually try out both ways of doing things. Trying to eliminate as many variables as possible and see if they come up with something consistent with my findings. Try raiding one week with mastery as your stat priority and another with hit stacked as high as you can. Help me by looking at the information I have included here and point out anything I could have done wrong. Or anything I could tweak to get a better more consistent test result. Ultimately I want to know FOR ABSOLUTELY SURE that hit stacking is an inferior way to play as a fury warrior with 4.0.6 regardless of gear level. If it isn't, then where does the gearset change and why?


Thanks alot for any and all help you can contribute to this!


Magnuss

artiev
02-09-2011, 09:29 PM
so i checked out your gear and idk how u can get only 15k with all that hit and then only 14k with mastery stacked..maybe u have a lag issue or something. does sound low for your gear but thats just my opinion on that. the idea behind the new setup is to avoid using heroic strike since it does 20% less damage. when u stack mastery u need to go full in or dont bother. haste to mast or crit whichever you dont have on that piece of gear.

hitstacking is basically obsolete atleast imo to an extent. before the patch i was there stacking to the ceiling with hit. the whole hit to 27% can be taken in many ways. there are many stats before it that you should focus on and this was true even with the last patch. that was when people had issues with rage and couldnt keep up the rotation.

now its at the point where your rotation can go smoothly as low as 9% (from what i tried). your crits from your special attacks help out a great deal with rage. blizzard put an unreasonable number like 27% cap cause they knew it is impossible to get to. so they fixed us this patch and basically gave us the option to either stack hit or stack your other stats and add more hit when needed

so far at 9% hit,20.26crit (before battleshout) and 15.54 mastery. im pulling numbers consistently over a fight that i never saw when stacking hit. but it is really to each his own on how and what to do with your character.

Magnuss
02-09-2011, 09:51 PM
so i checked out your gear and idk how u can get only 15k with all that hit and then only 14k with mastery stacked.. the idea behind the new setup is to avoid using heroic strike since it does 20% less damage. when u stack mastery u need to go full in or dont bother. haste to mast or crit whichever you dont have on that piece of gear.

The number 15k itself is deceiving. It is not an accurate portrayal of my dps as a whole (i pull far more in any dungeon or raid under almost any circumstance) but the idea is comparing standstill rotation damage with no buffs or debuffs aside from battle shout when one variable is changed between the two gear sets. When I did dungeons earlier today I noticed the discrepancy in my damage with mastery crit gearset which is what has caused me to do this testing. By all current accounts, unless im missing something that someone can verify, i should not be doing more damage with hit than mastery and yet I am.

artiev
02-09-2011, 10:47 PM
yea naturally in a raid you would pull more dps. but when u go into the whole mastery stack, u need to raise ur crit higher than what you did. u need crit at 20% with out battle shout. and mastery above 15. try that and then you will see a difference in the dps

Magnuss
02-09-2011, 10:59 PM
Im adjusting my gear to attempt to reach those numbers of 20% crit without battleshout and 15+ mastery and I gotta say, those are not easy number to get. Granted i am not the best geared to any extent but this in itself is putting limits on stats that I have not heard before now and I definitely havent seen anything to verify those numbers. Still, I am going to get as close to those numbers as i can with the gear available to me and see if it is the tipping point im looking for.

Razzos
02-10-2011, 03:16 AM
Im new in dps, was always tanking but i got to raid group where dps is needed. I still got about 11k dps on boss target dummy. So i think i do anythink wrong. Using SMF.
Starting with Heroc Throw to apply sunder - CS - BT - RB - BT- slam proc - BT - RB....
HS when rage over 80, CS on cd.

Here is my armory link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/shadowsong/razim%C3%ADr/simple

Can you help me, find where problem is? Thank you:)

squats
02-10-2011, 04:25 AM
Im new in dps, was always tanking but i got to raid group where dps is needed. I still got about 11k dps on boss target dummy. So i think i do anythink wrong. Using SMF.
Starting with Heroc Throw to apply sunder - CS - BT - RB - BT- slam proc - BT - RB....
HS when rage over 80, CS on cd.

Here is my armory link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/shadowsong/razim%C3%ADr/simple

Can you help me, find where problem is? Thank you:)

do me a favor and make a thread in the HALP! forum.
ill answer there. i dont want to hijack this thread.

Thegreatme
02-10-2011, 06:15 AM
the goal of low hit builds isn't specifically to stack mastery, it's to stack crit as much as possible, and then stack mastery when you can't reforge to crit. running with low hit builds is definitely more subject to player error and RNG from miss streaks. running with low amounts of hit requires more planning of ability usage especially when you need to do things like interrupting and/or AoEing, and if you make a mistake it's super easy to rage starve your self and miss your interrupt and consequently wipe your raid (trust me, I did it way too many times on halfus).

Basically hit is the stat for beginners or people who are not as adept at their rage management, crit is for those who are very good at managing their rage.

artiev
02-10-2011, 08:11 AM
^^ i agree 100% crit before mastery... but it comes down to what stats you can reforge. i ended up with high mastery due to majority of gear having crit already.

Demongate
02-10-2011, 08:46 AM
So I got a couple of questions regarding the changes

1) When is the ideal rage threshold for HS now?

2) What is the new <20% rotation?

artiev
02-10-2011, 09:03 AM
heroic strike should be used when rage is at 60 or higher.. sub 20% stays the same pretty much

Ion
02-10-2011, 09:09 AM
heroic strike should be used when rage is at 60 or higher.. sub 20% stays the same pretty much

Dunno if that's accurate...I think raging blow is more damage and dpr than execute is, especially once you have 5 executioner stacks.

Bung
02-10-2011, 09:13 AM
any thoughts on using incite spec for SMF?

artiev
02-10-2011, 09:15 AM
just for the ragedump purposes i use it.. execute it could go either way but with the low hit specs execute could burn off too much rage

Casz
02-10-2011, 09:19 AM
You're losing 10 strength for 20 hit, which hit still is a decent stat Casz. You're getting two increased instead of one.

Instead of thinking you're getting 40 strength, think of it as losing 20 hit.

Krenian you must be mind reading, I came to the same conclusion after thinking about it =)

Heimdär
02-10-2011, 09:28 AM
I go with low hit and use HS when I "feel" I'm not going to rage starve (incoming damage, gimmick combat, etc.., always +60

My Sub 20% rotation is:
CS (on CD) > EXECUTE (x5) > RB > EXECUTE ...

Ion
02-10-2011, 09:30 AM
I go with low hit and use HS when I "feel" I'm not going to rage starve (incoming damage, gimmick combat, etc.., always +60

My Sub 20% rotation is:
CS (on CD) > EXECUTE (x5) > RB > EXECUTE ...

Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. Obviously CS was always in the sub-20% rotation, so just adding in RB (which only costs 20 rage, whereas execute costs up to 30).

squats
02-10-2011, 03:54 PM
any thoughts on using incite spec for SMF?
id think it would be pretty much mandatory... deep wounds is weapon damage based.. and 1 handers have crap for weapon damage. that and...

RB damage will be lower for SMF because its based on weapon damage. HS isnt. id gather that HS damage will be on par with RB damage, if not more.. depending on your mastery of course.

But thats not to say mastery will help you all that much either. remember that mastery increases RB's weapon damage. and even if you have a good amount of mastery.. its still only taking 230ish% of 841-1563+ap.. which is still crap. Where STR increases damage on every ability you have.

balane
02-10-2011, 04:34 PM
My Sub 20% rotation is:
CS (on CD) > EXECUTE (x5) > RB > EXECUTE ...

Glad somebody else verified this for me. Thank you. This is what I've been using sub-20 and it just "felt" right, seeing some nice yellow numbers with this plan.

squats
02-10-2011, 05:04 PM
Also. Would it be worth it to discuss the value of 3/3 incite over 3/3 DW again?

Because we dont want as much hit anymore, we wont be using HS as much. And the changes to recklessness will decrease the value of the talent anyways.

Also. I think it would do the SMF users some good to re evaluate their ability and stat priorities in the guide when you get a chance. As they have changed a bit because of the patch. They arnt to far from TG.. but they are still different.

Baba
02-11-2011, 08:50 AM
One thing for me, it seems I'm still hitting HS pretty often. Probably not as much as before, but it's still coming out as a significant chunk of my dps.

squats
02-11-2011, 09:21 AM
One thing for me, it seems I'm still hitting HS pretty often. Probably not as much as before, but it's still coming out as a significant chunk of my dps.

im finding myself using inner rage quite often now.

But as far as 3/3 deep wounds goes. it should be the way to go now even with how much damage HS is still doing in the over all picture. The talent isnt as valuable now because of the way recklessness works.

Iv never been a numbers guy to be honest. I just think in theory and somehow it normally just works for me. thats why i wanted to bring up my ideas with TGM so it could be discusses further

Baba
02-11-2011, 11:33 AM
I've always had 3/3 deep wounds, so nothing has changed in my build. And I admit, I have yet to use inner rage once. I do have the rage to HS often, but every 1.5s, especially when it's not my top attack? I'm pretty sure inner rage will have to go back to the Blizzard lab. They added it in as a tool when you're swimming in rage (as we were for most of wotlk). But rage normalization took care of that. And because of rage normalization, our rage wont increase dramatically as we gear through T11, 12, 13 (it will a bit because we'll likely have some more hit and haste with higher tiers), so I don't see inner rage becoming good ever.

squats
02-11-2011, 11:39 AM
I've always had 3/3 deep wounds, so nothing has changed in my build. And I admit, I have yet to use inner rage once. I do have the rage to HS often, but every 1.5s, especially when it's not my top attack? I'm pretty sure inner rage will have to go back to the Blizzard lab. They added it in as a tool when you're swimming in rage (as we were for most of wotlk). But rage normalization took care of that. And because of rage normalization, our rage wont increase dramatically as we gear through T11, 12, 13 (it will a bit because we'll likely have some more hit and haste with higher tiers), so I don't see inner rage becoming good ever.

I dont understand your logic.
You are saying that because HS isnt our top attack. making it a 1.5 second CD for a period of time isnt worth it..

All its doing is making an ability that is off the GCD usable every 1.5 seconds. I dont get why this is bad. Even if we cant use HS every time its available in the time frame that inner rage is up.. its still a dps boost if you use it even 1 more time then you normally could.

As long as your not rage starving yourself there is no way that this is anything but a dps increase. Sure making something that costs 30 rage useable more often isnt all that appealing. But its a billion times better than it was, and its still doing its job more or less.

Could it use some more thought.. yeah. Is it useless.. absolutely not

Baba
02-11-2011, 11:54 AM
I'm saying I will rarely have the rage to make it useful. Enough rage to hit inner rage, BT, RB on every cd, along with hitting HS every 1.5s? Inner rage in both versions was designed as something to use when we overflowing with rage, as we often were pre-4.0 (especially in ICC for instance). I'm certainly not overflowing with rage now.

squats
02-11-2011, 12:53 PM
I'm saying I will rarely have the rage to make it useful. Enough rage to hit inner rage, BT, RB on every cd, along with hitting HS every 1.5s? Inner rage in both versions was designed as something to use when we overflowing with rage, as we often were pre-4.0 (especially in ICC for instance). I'm certainly not overflowing with rage now.

i get this.
But its still useful when it does happen. I know i have times where i have lucky hit streaks or RB decides not to be useable so im stuck with BT Slam! and HS. Its nice to have something that will fill the void when these things happen. however rare they are.

balane
02-11-2011, 10:40 PM
Sigh.

Upcoming hotfix;

Raging Blow reduced from 120% to 100% weapon damage at max level.

squats
02-12-2011, 02:15 AM
Sigh.

Upcoming hotfix;

Raging Blow reduced from 120% to 100% weapon damage at max level.
while i understand RB had potential to get out of control at higher mastery levels. i think we deserve a compensation for this in pve.

WTB massive buff to deep wounds?

Akolon
02-12-2011, 02:34 AM
Actually they´re saying, that they considered fury PvE damage as too high. I´m not convinced that this is really the case. Agreed that fury DpS was substantially increased in 4.0.6, but this was necessary. But they simply won´t admit that they (again) nerfed PvE damage for PvP burst damage reasons.

squats
02-12-2011, 02:42 AM
Actually they´re saying, that they considered fury PvE damage as too high. I´m not convinced that this is really the case. Agreed that fury DpS was substantially increased in 4.0.6, but this was necessary. But they simply won´t admit that they (again) nerfed PvE damage for PvP burst damage reasons.

but they did... they said they did here.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/157908/incoming-hotfixes

Anyways. On average our pve damage wasnt really to high.. i dont get where they want us to be in the dps line up.. dead last?

SMF will overtake TG with this change. and while thats okay.. id like to see the two be similar in comparison to one another.

..better 1 handers would be nice also

Akolon
02-12-2011, 02:48 AM
No, they don´t.



In all three cases we’ve been closely monitoring performance since the patch and all 3 specs are currently doing too much damage in PvE. In the case of Shadow and Fury we were also worried about their PvP burst potential, but didn’t want to risk affecting them in PvE. Now that we have concluded they are too high in PvE, both aspects of the game should feel more balanced.
They say, PvE damage was too high and they only could nerf our too high PvP burst, because PvE damage also was too high.

squats
02-12-2011, 02:54 AM
No, they don´t.

They say, PvE damage was too high and they only could nerf our too high PvP burst, because PvE damage also was too high.

you said " But they simply won´t admit that they (again) nerfed PvE damage for PvP burst damage reasons." in the post above.

but they did admit it was for pvp burst reasons.. as well as pve damage. but this thread should be for discussing fury pve dps. not why they are nerfing us.

what can they do to fix this crap?
deep wounds remains the only damaging component that they havent messed with, and its pretty low compared to how it was back in wrath.. i think i damage increase to passive damage would be nice imo.

Akolon
02-12-2011, 02:58 AM
Why should they "fix" something, if they think, that nerfs were needed due to "too high damage"?

They won´t buff anything, because the wanted to nerf fury dps...

squats
02-12-2011, 03:10 AM
Why should they "fix" something, if they think, that nerfs were needed due to "too high damage"?

They won´t buff anything, because the wanted to nerf fury dps...

They often over nerf things.
I cant think of any reason why they wont end up balancing out this nerf so its less of a hit.
this is more than 20% off of what the tool tip shows. And this will push SMF head by a few %. Any fight that has a damage modifier will increase this gap.

i honestly doubt this will go without some sort of a "fix" for long.

Akolon
02-12-2011, 04:19 AM
If they decided to improve fury dps again, they would try to buff one of the abilites that hit the lowest at the moment, but are still part of our normal rotation.

Passive damage (including DW): They said some time ago, that they don´t like dps doing to large chunks of passive or white damage. They want pressing buttons to be meaningful and they dpn´t want to award standing afk at the boss. So you can expect it to be a buff to an actively used ability.

Hard hitters: They obviously won´t buff one of the already harder hitting abilities, because it would lead to increased burst potential, which they try to avoid.

HS/Cleave: They are meant to be pure dumps and were just nerfed for the reason that they got unintendedly promoted to a core rotation ability.

Considering all of this, there are not too many abilities left, which could be a reasonable candidate for a buff.

I personally think that a buff to the base damage of colossus smash should be a good idea. It does very minor damage at the moment, is used in a repeated pattern and buffing it would also lead to a dps buff for arms, which is still behind.

That buff would´t need to be too big, if they wanted to compensate for the RB nerf by just a bit and you would´t have the risk of creating too much additional burst, you have an actively used ability and even more you could polish up the impression of "hitting the CS button", because you woudn´t just see a damage number you get ashamed of, but it would underline the feeling of doing something meaningful.

So my vote goes for "buffing the damage of CS".

Memsie
02-12-2011, 10:37 AM
Buffing CS would be nice, it hits for so little..

But what I actually wanted to comment on are the Recklessness changes from 4.0.6. Pre-patch, it would count as an enrage for RB. Okay, it lasted only three hits, which was actually nice, because I could use it even if I didn't want to be a burden to my healers in a tough situation.

Now. It doesn't trigger RB anymore (at least for me), it lasts full 12 seconds, and doesn't seem to be affected by mastery. I personally thought they changed it to lower burst, but to also make mastery more attractive, so I was pretty surprised it is not affected. Or at least the tooltip doesn't show any changes.. What are the rest of you thinking about that?

squats
02-12-2011, 10:48 AM
it never did activate RB. its not an enrage effect. It would make sense for it to be.. but its not.
besides. there are almost no cases where we should be using recklessness without death wish up anyways. so even if they made it so it does activate RB.. it would be useless.

Memsie
02-12-2011, 10:54 AM
Ah, my bad there then.

Although, why on earth isn't it an Enrage effect..

squats
02-12-2011, 04:03 PM
Ah, my bad there then.

Although, why on earth isn't it an Enrage effect..

my guess is that blizzard wants to control how many abilities we can use to activate RB.

Manxmadman
02-12-2011, 05:33 PM
It used to count as an enrage in that time between ICC and Cata release, then it got changed to a normal buff.

Not particularly happy that I'm going to have to go get another set of weapons, all be it ones handers that no one else really wants, after burning a load of DKP on 2x 2handers and the corresponding landslide enchants, quite a bit of gold gone up in smoke there. Feels wrong that they are willing to compensate MM hunters, when they are so far ahead of the pack, see Simcraft's latest global pass on classes:

http://www.simulationcraft.org/406-2/Raid_T11_372.html#raid-summary

Yet they aren't prepared to throw TG a bone to keep it nicely in line with SMF, especially since the PTR brought them within almost 150DPS of one another.

balane
02-13-2011, 12:59 AM
So how much better is SMF now? I have 2x 359 two handers with Landslide on them. Really not looking forward to replacing those enchants.

squats
02-13-2011, 01:20 AM
http://www.simulationcraft.org/406-2/Raid_T11_372.html#Warrior_Fury_1h_T11_372

its enough to want to swap over.. but again. thats at the best gear level..

having a spread sheet would help..

Manxmadman
02-13-2011, 04:53 AM
I would imagine that once your getting into raid gear that SMF probably pulls ahead. TG probably still works out at the 5man herioc/starting raiding level because of the stat values you can achieve from 2handers, it being much easier to cap 8% hit with two Foe Reapers and then working on your other stats than using 1 handers, as an example.

squats
02-16-2011, 05:30 PM
CS no longer stacks sunder...

Kazeyonoma
02-16-2011, 05:37 PM
with the glyph it doesn't?

squats
02-16-2011, 05:50 PM
Face has been put in palm

helmerzinho
02-17-2011, 06:24 AM
I switched over to SMF last night.
Here is WOL forr Astramedes, my best fight.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0ldb6l7a5j5uu2u6/sum/damageDone/?s=7767&e=7992

Kokia is Arms warrior and i pretty much were even with him and would have done quite well on magmaw also if i havent been jumping :D

It works until TG is back up were it belong.

PS! After this is wapped out my blue 346 wep with hurricane with the PVP mace with hurricane enchant for MH and The Maloriak Tanking Onehander as OH.

Should provide yet another DPS boost ^^

Conn.

Baba
02-17-2011, 09:20 PM
Gear question: On Use or Proc for trinkets? I have Right Eye of Rajh and Might of the Ocean, both 285 hit, the former has the 1700str proc on crit, the latter has 1400 str on use. Which is better for overall dps? I'm leaning towards Might, because it basically is up for every deathwish, so makes it when I'm hitting hardest, even harder. But the lazy part of me likes not having to think about use trinkets :)

Loganisis
02-23-2011, 10:41 AM
I'm confused, when did SMF jump TG? Last I heard, post 4.0.6 SMF was nearly neck and neck with TG rather than being behind? Or did I miss some late breaking changes?

It would also probably be true that SMF, even if exactly equal with TG, will likely be more forgiving to players who aren't as careful about rage management with low-hit TG builds. So SMF has a higher floor with about the same ceiling, doesn't it?

And now I'm going to go grumble in the corner about being plate wearing rogue (I love big weapons :`( )

Bung
02-23-2011, 10:51 AM
With the nerf to RB SMF is slightly ahead. They are still very close and depending on what weapons you have you can make your choice.