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TomHuxley
11-22-2010, 01:46 PM
I was just reading over the official patch notes for tomorrow's patch on mmo-champ (warrior dps portions quoted below) and it's a clear nerf across the board. I didn't notice warriors suddenly outpacing other classes when it came to DPS the last few weeks...is this related to level 85 class balance? Or did I miss something dramatic on live?


Warrior (Forums / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)
Cleave damage has been reduced by approximately 17%.
Execute damage has been reduced by approximately 17%.
Heroic Strike damage has been reduced by approximately 17%.
Overpower now does 125% weapon damage, down from 150%.
Rend base damage has been reduced by approximately 17% and percent of weapon damage per tick lowered to 25%, from 30%.
Shield Block now only increases block chance by 25%, but excess block that pushes avoidance plus block to over 100% is now converted to critical block chance.
Slam now costs 15 rage, down from 20, and now does 125% weapon damage, down from 150%.
Victory Rush damage has been reduced by approximately 17%.
Whirlwind now does 65% weapon damage, down from 75%.

Arms
Mortal Strike now does 150% weapon damage, down from 185%.
Second Wind now heals for 2/5% of total health, down from 5/10%.
Strikes of Opportunity now does 100% weapon damage, down from 115%.

Fury
Blood Craze now heals for 1/2/3% of total health, down from 2.5/5/7.5%.
Bloodthirst damage has been reduced by approximately 17%.
Raging Blow now does 110% weapon damage, down from 150%.
Unshackled Fury now gains approximately 50% more benefit per point of Mastery.

shiz98
11-22-2010, 02:19 PM
Definitely for level 85 patch balance. These numbers seem a lot closer to the ones 4.0.1 launched with before they were hotfixed back up.

There are a few changed that seem to be fixing problems that came about from some theorycrafting though: Fury's mastery got a lot better, and Slam dropped in rage cost (likely in response to Arms haste scaling concerns).

Anyway, the next two weeks ain't gonna be so hot for Arms DPS, that's for sure :(

TomHuxley
11-22-2010, 02:19 PM
That makes sense. Ah well, that's ok, it won't matter soon anyhow.

Reev
11-22-2010, 02:20 PM
Arms dps wasn't too hot to begin with.

kasanagi
11-22-2010, 03:25 PM
I don't want to use slam in pvp :[

I'm more concerned about the Shield slam changes - The base damage got more than doubled according to the tooltip but without the 30% threat modifier is it generating more or less threat??

TomHuxley
11-22-2010, 04:14 PM
Devastate also lost its threat bonus. Both are interesting (questionable?) moves but I left them out since this is a DPS forum.

Ellóren
11-26-2010, 07:11 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't agree with this? I can see why classes should be balanced at lvl 85. But why does that have to mean that we're NOT balanced at 80?

They introduced the class changes because they wanted us to get the "flavour" of our spec the moment we choose it, not only at higher levels. That's why we gain a signature ability the moment we choose a spec. I applaud this idea. But now I feel like this has all been reversed again - as a dps class my job is doing damage. If I don't do much of that, why am I there? How are new players to get the "flavour" of being a bad-ass dps class if they rank below the tank on dps in every instance they level through?

Sorry about the rant, it just amazes me how little reaction there seems to be to this major nerf to a class that wasn't OP at all (on the contrary)...


P.S. Edit to clarify: I'm talking about Arms here. Never played as Fury so wouldn't comment on that spec.

Krenian
11-26-2010, 07:21 AM
Not sure why people are hitting the panic button, yet again...

At 85, Fury was outpacing everyone else in DPS and Prot was well beyond fine for tanking. If the changes that were done were too drastic for you guys right now, it's because they're balancing what they saw as an issue during the beta testing. That's it.

Expected nerfs are expected due to the buffs we had during 4.0. Nothing to see here.

Ellóren
11-26-2010, 07:27 AM
You completely ignored the point in my post... which was levels 1-84, not 85. As well, I stressed that I was talking about Arms, and you reply with Fury and Protection.

Krenian
11-26-2010, 07:31 AM
Arms is fine, from 1-84. Besides, 85 is all that matters right now.

I ignored the point of your post because you're complaining about the fact that we're balanced for 85 and are complaining about competing between levels 1-84. The game ain't balance for that, it's balanced to 85.

So yes, I completely went over the point of your post because it's senseless complaining about something that they (Blizzard) have stated TIME AND TIME AGAIN about it being worked around level 85 caps. Complaining about your DPS beforehand is moot with less than two weeks to Cataclysm.

Can you kill mobs without having to rest too much? I can as Arms, Fury and Prot.

Job done.

Ellóren
11-26-2010, 07:37 AM
Actually, I saw more than once in blue posts that Blizzard care about the levelling experience. It's the reason why low-level quests were revamped, class changes were introduced, etc. Levelling is NOT just about killing mobs without having to rest too much. If it is to you, then that's fine, but it isn't to me and a whole lot of other people out there either.

I love the changes overall. Also note that I'm not raging ("waaaaaaah, they broke the game! They HATE us!!") or anything; I raised a point I disagree with and I hope I will hear people agreeing and/or disagreeing but in either case, not brushing off my argument or declare it as invalid just because they personally have different priorities.

Krenian
11-26-2010, 07:48 AM
You misunderstood me.

I never said Blizzard didn't care about the leveling experience. I said Blizzard has tuned the talent trees for a level 85 character, and not levels 1 to 84. The leveling experience has nothing to do with what I said here.

Furthermore, leveling is still possible as Arms just fine with the new 4.0 changes. I've looked at the changes, I've played with the changes, I've also leveled from 1 to 20 just to try it out, and tested it in dungeons. It's fine.

You're stating that you love the changes, and yet you just argued about how you disagree with the current changes. So...you're contradicting yourself in that fashion. Do you agree with the changes or not? Because no offense, we were doing too much damage at level 85 that we shouldn't be doing, and the nerf directly is related to that fact.

You make it sound like they nerfed your leveling experience cause they lowered the amount of damage you are doing in either a five man instance (Which makes no sense because no one really determines damage values in a five man setting). This isn't just my opinion here, it's the fact that for six years, they've done the same thing: finetuned and tweaked for endgame status. Endgame pvp. Endgame PvE. They never tweaked for leveling experience unless it was absolutely impossible for a character to kill something without having an excessive downtime.

You think you have it rough now? Try playing a warrior period during Vanilla. They've done leaps and bounds better for Arms than the past has ever been and you're just being greedy and stating that the class isn't playable anymore and you disagree with a change that directly is affecting endgame content and as such, may affect how much damage you do.

I come back to the same thing: Blizzard doesn't care what your damage is in five man because they've always designed the game for endgame content. Saying that they didn't is silly as you see numbers always being tweaked patch by patch because of endgame content or pvp changes. You hardly to ever seen changes to classes due to leveling woes and low dps during the leveling scheme.

Again, don't take this as Blizzard doesn't care for leveling: They redid all of Azeroth to facilitate leveling and make it more interesting. Just...don't expect to be given the tools to do max dps while you're leveling when you don't even have all the tools until level 81.

Ellóren
11-26-2010, 08:07 AM
I am rather tired of your condescending tone. Only few of the things you imply are actually in my posts. I'll give you examples:

It is entirely possible to agree with a concept and 99% of its execution while disagreeing with certain points in it (I am all for democracy although I very much disagree with the way it is applied in some places. Or, I do love the direction WoW is taking in Cataclysm but I disagree with a few finer points of its execution).

I do remember Vanilla (no idea where you got the assumption that I don't). Neither do I think that I "have it rough" now.

I am not stating anywhere that I'm talking about MY levelling experience. I'm not.

I could go on and on pointing out more, but frankly, this is too tiring and fruitless for me. So, if there's anyone who would like to actually comment on my point without - I say this once again - trying to invalidate the point itself or my right to make it (regardless of whether or not they disagree) - then I would love to read those :)

Bashal
11-26-2010, 08:32 AM
It looks to me like Blizzard has a hard time with scaling. Part of it is the new abilities or talents people have access to as they level, which makes linear scaling rather difficult. If the classes were more homogenous, it would probably be easier, but I'm sure nobody wants that.

But we can't level yet, so why did they break the balance?

I think they wanted to make sure the actual cata roll-out would be as smooth as possible. If they have all of their changes for leveling to 85 patched in and good to go in advance, and leave a little time to make sure that the changes don't break something horribly (giving them time to correct it before dec. 7th), that helps make it so.

Ok, but why can't they have certain points where everything is reasonably balanced? Like everything is balanced at 60, 70, 80 and 85?

Because of the balance difficulties I mentioned, that would require them to implement exceptions at each point where they wanted balance. In other words: "this ability scales like this to 60, like that to 70...." which means whenever they made a change to a class, there's all these balance points to tweak. That's a lot of added complexity for something that most people will just breeze right past on their way to the latest content.

praetoria
11-26-2010, 09:11 AM
Not sure why people are hitting the panic button, yet again...

At 85, Fury was outpacing everyone else in DPS and Prot was well beyond fine for tanking. If the changes that were done were too drastic for you guys right now, it's because they're balancing what they saw as an issue during the beta testing. That's it.

Expected nerfs are expected due to the buffs we had during 4.0. Nothing to see here.

lol..." beyond fine"? thats sounds like a fancy way of saying 7/10.


it wasnt op. they could have left it exactly how it was. warriors are once again going to be the leeast prefeared tanking class in the game, second to druids. from the pov of a raid leader, theres going to be very little reason to want a warrior over a dk or a paladin assuming the players are of equal skill.

Krenian
11-26-2010, 09:22 AM
So you've tested this in raid situations at level 85, which btw the game hasn't been out released yet and unless you were on the beta testing the stuff, then well...by all means, kudos, and have been given concrete evidence that Warriors are terrible?

The fact is that people are acting irresponsible by screaming foul at something that they fixed due to the fact they buffed warriors at 4.0 because we were underachieving. Furthermore, we are still doing MORE damage that we were doing before they buffed us, and everyone is crying foul about them now toning the damage down for obvious level 85 tweaking.

I honestly do not understand you guys complaining about this. Is it fun to be nerfed? Nope. Is it boring as hell to see a list of nerfs? Yep. Do you think we were the only class to get nerfed? No. Look at the entire board. Everyone got nerfed and had their damage reduced. And they explained that this WOULD happen after they buffed certain classes, IE Warriors, in 4.0.

It's not a fancy way of saying 7/10. No offense, but 7/10 is actually a pretty good score and expecting 10/10 is expecting perfect balance which in no case an MMO has ever been able to achieve.

I'm going to state this one last time: PLEASE WAIT until Cataclysm is released and numbers are released of raid testing and pvp testing. Screaming foul when we can't even test the new numbers is pretty much whining and if I recall correctly, not tolerated on this forum at all.

I came in here to try to explain to people to stop overreacting to things that are well beyond expected due to Blizzard stating as such and furthermore stating the fact that they are now balancing for level 85 content. We haven't tested it, we can't test it till after December 7th, so why are you guys bent over backwards on something you cannot currently change? That's just bitching to bitch, no offense.